De-wizardifying the Jedi - a simple and cheap idea

[Varnoukh]

Followup thought to something I posted in another, broader thread of suggestions.

 

One of the big problem with sages and to a lesser extent shadows and guardians (I think) is that some of their abilities both break from iconic Jedi stuff and also defy reality.

 

eg. sages and shadows conjuring huge boulders out of thin air to throw at people.

 

I recently read that the sage class was originally titled "wizard" but changed in response to overwhelmingly negative feedback. Seems like they just changed the name though and kept thinking wizard while designing them.

 

In the films and clone wars Sith occasionally throw big rocks at people and Jedi stop them. In SWTOR Jedi throwing rocks at people feels totally backwards even on the ground (as opposed to inside buildings or space ships) where it's at least potentially realistic.

 

Saber throw would be the perfect replacement.

 

Copy / paste the knight's version. Change it's cooldown and damage to equal the rock throw. Put the rock throw and consular saber throw on the same cooldown. Copy for Sith.

 

Players could then have the choice to use one or the other as they please. Or if they actually like the rock throw, that on the ground and saber throw elsewhere. And their saber would stop being a mere accessory!

 

That change alone would be a massive improvement to the player experience with minimal cost and no balance issues.

 

In the same vein, some relatively simple graphical changes could be a big improvement. Remove the rocks from telekinetic throw and rename it accordingly. I don't currently have a max level shadow so don't know if it's actually in the game, but I did LOL a bit when I saw a video with their abilities and one with floating rocks around them. So if that's still a thing, I'd de-wizardify that too.

[xordevoreaux]

and also defy reality

[snip]

Saber throw would be the perfect replacement.

 

Can't believe anyone would ever make such a comment about Star Wars.

 

With zoo and farm animals for aliens (Ortolans, Ugnaughts), space wizards tossing lighting as well rocks, and space ghosts of people dead for 20,000 years (Rajivari) talking to the living, tell me again what component of Star Wars did George Lucas or the writers of SWTOR ever intend to draw from reality? (1)

 

And suggesting a physical process (throwing a saber) to replace something force-driven (telekinesis), goes entirely against the very idea of the Force. Removing the mystery and mysticism from the Force nullifies the entire premise of the Force, which is why so many ardent fans hate the concept of midichlorians.

 

The only reason you see rocks appear out of thin air when a Jedi tosses rocks is a graphical lack depicting material erupting from the ground or nearby objects, and that's just the devs not bothering to depict the resulting crater which the material was pulled from. The graphical effect isn't meant to suggest instantiation of material from nothing. (2)

 

Sorry, this isn't a 1960's got-to-get-the-science-right science fiction story.

It's Star Wars, which is a space opera.

Mystical foundation for reality and all.

 

----

(1) Modelling the Empire after the Third Reich is about as close to borrowing from reality as the franchise got, and the appropriation of a historical event to drive the model for the plot line didn't involve physics.

 

(2) Although in the Star Wars universe, something from nothing isn't beyond possibility, such as Darth Vader's immaculate conception, i.e., his mother's pregnancy occurring despite no suitor present, Force-encompassing midichlorian microbes be damned.

Edited October 12, 2019 by xordevoreaux

[AlrikFassbauer]

eg. sages and shadows conjuring huge boulders out of thin air to throw at people.

 

I recently read that the sage class was originally titled "wizard" but changed in response to overwhelmingly negative feedback. Seems like they just changed the name though and kept thinking wizard while designing them.

 

In the films and clone wars Sith occasionally throw big rocks at people and Jedi stop them. In SWTOR Jedi throwing rocks at people feels totally backwards even on the ground (as opposed to inside buildings or space ships) where it's at least potentially realistic.

 

"Out of thin air" isn't the correct term here. I mean, this is just a symbolic animation of material pulled out from the earth, if you standing in an open area, or, like Darth Vader, pulling things in a fight against Luke.

 

All these animations simply cannot show the actual pulling a huge rock out of the earth below you, because this kind of animation is very difficult to make, I believe. And a similar thing would go for starfips in FPs, for example.

 

What this "out of thin air" is meant to symbolise is simple that something that isn't modelled into the look of the area is grabbed and used. You just cannot model so detailly as if showwing EVERY POTENTIAL stone it otem for throwing. A PC would explode with that amount of detail.

 

In the films and clone wars Sith occasionally throw big rocks at people and Jedi stop them. In SWTOR Jedi throwing rocks at people feels totally backwards even on the ground (as opposed to inside buildings or space ships) where it's at least potentially realistic

 

Jedi are potentially able to use them, just look at Luke's training on Dagobah. I don't believe that throwing things is an ability tied to the Dark Side of the Force.

 

Like Luke is choking an gamorrean guard at the entrance of Jabba's Palace. People often overlook that.

 

However, what i don't like at all is the overall design philosophy to make Sages look weak. Lightning storm looks so much bertter, and thus gives so much more visual feedback of the actual power of a character. "Throwing pebbles" just isn't.

[SerraShar]

Nah, no thanx . I never liked the throw Lightsaber ability (especially since you get it so late), I rather keep my throwing Pebbles!

[casirabit]

No thank you. I like my Sage just the way she is and in addition I am guessing you haven't played an inquisitor either since you seem to think they have rock throwing abilities. My sorceress (Sith Inquisitor) has force lightning and thank you very much I want to keep that.

 

Furthermore, my sage has one rock throwing ability the rest (Turbulence , Telekinetic burst , Telekinetic gust, and telekinetic wave) have nothing to do with rock throwing. Maybe go play one and see what their abilities are.

 

I already have a guardian and sentinel and I sure do not want the same abilities on my Sage or Shadow as I have on those.

 

And I frankly don't need reality in Star Wars when it is not something you base reality on.

[phalczen]

Well, Telekinetic Throw may “seem” to generate the pebbles from nothing but Project’s animation definitely uses the local environment: in the wild there is often a crater on the ground where the big rock came from, and in structures you often see a hunk of metal. It would be neat if it was a little more like DCUO’s PhysX engine in terms of actually grabbing a piece of the rendered environment but alas, those are the limitations of the alpha Hero engine vs. Unreal engine.

 

I mean it’s exactly what Vader did in ESB against Luke in Cloud City. He was so confident in his telekinetic ability that he even lowered his saber. You can’t get much more iconic than that.

[steveerkcanjerk]

the sage would be alot of work for very little. But I would love if we got rid of the floating rocks around tank spec shadows and sins. It looks stupid, we could easily just get rid of it and have the buff on the bar, it really would not make a difference.

[Varnoukh]

Can't believe anyone would ever make such a comment about Star Wars.

 

Can't believe anyone would respond so foolishly.

 

With zoo and farm animals for aliens (Ortolans, Ugnaughts), space wizards tossing lighting as well rocks, and space ghosts of people dead for 20,000 years (Rajivari) talking to the living, tell me again what component of Star Wars did George Lucas or the writers of SWTOR ever intend to draw from reality? (1)

 

The Force isn't magic.

 

There's telekinesis and lightning throwing.

 

In Star Wars the rocks are NEVER conjured out of thin air. Unlike in SWTOR.

 

And suggesting a physical process (throwing a saber) to replace something force-driven (telekinesis), goes entirely against the very idea of the Force. Removing the mystery and mysticism from the Force nullifies the entire premise of the Force, which is why so many ardent fans hate the concept of midichlorians.

 

Physical? Are you mad?

 

The saber returns. Saber "throw" very, very, very obviously telekinesis.

 

Very.

 

Can't believe anyone wouldn't notice something like that.

 

The only reason[/color] you see rocks appear out of thin air when a Jedi tosses rocks is a graphical lack depicting material erupting from the ground or nearby objects, and that's just the devs not bothering to depict the resulting crater which the material was pulled from. The graphical effect isn't meant to suggest instantiation of material from nothing. (2)

 

Can't believe anyone would say anything so utterly absurd.

 

As I pointed out very, very, very clearly in my OP, the primary problem is inside space ships and buildings where convenient boulders (for project) and small rocks (for telekinetic throw) absolutely would not be lying around.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Varnoukh

[Varnoukh]

"Out of thin air" isn't the correct term here.

 

It is absolutely the correct term.

 

Where do all these rocks come from when you're inside buildings or space ships? And why don't we see any of them otherwise?

 

Thin air, darling.

 

Thin.

 

Air.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Varnoukh

[Varnoukh]

No thank you. I like my Sage just the way she is and in addition I am guessing you haven't played an inquisitor either since you seem to think they have rock throwing abilities.

 

You obviously didn't read my post. Thanks for your input.

 

To repeat myself, what I suggested wouldn't stop you from throwing rocks if you're into that.

 

I suggested an alternative to rock throwing, doing exactly the same amount of damage and sharing the same cooldown.

 

So you could use one or the other as you please.

 

And *** are you on about with inquisitors?

 

No, I do not think they have rock throwing abilites and yes I've played them. I'm not into Sith but they feel much more authentic to play.

 

What I said - very, very clearly - in relation to canon Sith - not "inquisitors", which is just a SWTOR made up class for this game.

 

Sith throw big rocks at people. Count Dooku in the films. Been a while since I watched them but I think both Dooku and Ventress in Clone Wars. Very first episode for Ventress. In both cases dear little Yoda catches the rock to prevent others from being harmed.

 

So you see, SWTOR gets it completely backwards in the rock department.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Varnoukh

[Varnoukh]

the sage would be alot of work for very little.

 

Literally just copy, paste and a few simple number changes in the code.

 

The vast majority of work involved with all abilities is graphical. In this case because the ability already exists for another class, it would literally just be copy, paste and change a few details, i.e. cooldown, damage, changing focus cost to force cost.

 

That's all.

 

I could probably easily do it myself in a few minutes if I had access to the code.

 

But I would love if we got rid of the floating rocks around tank spec shadows and sins. It looks stupid, we could easily just get rid of it and have the buff on the bar, it really would not make a difference.

 

It's funny you mention this because in checking out other class info to see if there are any others I could possibly enjoy, I learned that project gets replaced for shadows at higher levels.

 

I watched one of the vids demo'ing and cringed when I saw they get one which is more rock-hurly. Ugh. So yeah, super not for me.

 

But the other two specs lose rocks altogether, making them much more appealing to me.

 

I think it's sad that no-one bothered to mention this. I obviously really, really don't like this rock throwing business and there's another class which has it at lower levels - which is all new players can judge the game by - and lose it later.

 

I've taken project off my hotbar for my sage and combat feels so much better, albeit a bit slower. I don't zoom and try not to see the rocks for telekinetic throw.

 

Knowing that shadow has no stupid rock throwing for 2 out of its 3 specs I'll definitely give them a try. Plus their lightsaber isn't purely ornamental. No healing (my preference) or tanking for me then. By all accounts the game seems to be desperately short on them.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Varnoukh

[Anysao]

There’s a point of discussion in this thread that I can’t help but correct:

 

The Consular’s “Project” ability (the rock throw) does actually pull a rock from the earth to throw. It does not come out of thin air. Next time you use the ability, stand right next to the target. You’ll notice that a hole in the ground opens and a rock comes flying out, which is then projected at the enemy. If you are on a ship, it may turn out to be a piece of droid or a crate.

 

Back Pre-1.3, Project was actually a slower ability but far more visibly satisfying: the projectile would be withdrawn from the ground right beside your feet, and then would be thrown. The change was made because players felt that the ability did damage too slowly, which was a fair argument.

 

Anyway: I think I would support OP on this change. I would just probably never use the new saber throw. I like Project as it is.