Fix Juggernauts in PVP -- WAY OP!`

[JediMasterAlex]

For whatever record, I dont think regs shows any tremendous skills either. In both, you're dependent on a randomly thrown together team that may or may not be able to communicate effectively, and granked has a tiny(er) population.

 

So no, being top ranked in solos doesn't impress me, nor does being top ranked in granked, nor does showing huge numbers on a scoreboard in regs.

 

Given enough games played in solo ranked, better players will end up with higher ratings, worse players will end up with lower ratings. Regs has no such measurement. These are facts.

 

And you neatly avoided answering my question. What is your criteria for determining whether someone is good or bad? Your own personal opinion? Or is it your position that one can never know if someone is good or bad? That, like many of the big existential questions, it's unknowable? We all have both good and bad inside of us? I don't know, maybe you can help me out.

Edited October 11, 2019 by JediMasterAlex

[KendraP]

Horror I think that playing with or against someone tells me more about their skill set than a number of any kind. Maybe I'm just old fashioned that way.

 

Objective measures like elo are only as meaningful as the underlying population allows. Just like granked has population issues, solos has it's own set of issues, and frankly, I don't see the point arguing the issue as neither of us is open minded enough to actually debate without sending personal jabs rather than actual issues.

 

I don't like ranked, ergo to you, I will always be inferior never mind the reasons why I don't like ranked. And to me, you have your head so far in the clouds you can't see the obvious right in front of you. We will never see eye to eye, and as we blatantly refuse to attempt to understand the other person's perspective, there is little point arguing.

[JediMasterAlex]

Horror I think that playing with or against someone tells me more about their skill set than a number of any kind. Maybe I'm just old fashioned that way.

 

Playing with or against them how many times? Anyone can have fluky performances one way or the other. I've seen the very best players get globaled and I've seen very bad players have great games under the right circumstances. It's not at all a reliable way to evaluate someone unless you watch them a lot, and even then only if you know the right things to look for.

 

And to me, you have your head so far in the clouds you can't see the obvious right in front of you.

 

Which is what? The flaws of solo ranked? Believe me, I see them very well. I play solo ranked a ton, on a bunch of different toons now. There's a lot Bioware can do to improve ranked. However, that doesn't make elo or ranked rating in general meaningless. It's still by far the best indicator of skill we currently have, especially given that group ranked is dead.

Edited October 11, 2019 by JediMasterAlex

[Seterade]

Given enough games played in solo ranked, better players will end up with higher ratings, worse players will end up with lower ratings. Regs has no such measurement. These are facts.

 

Here are some facts backed by elo numbers. My DPS Jugg was 43 wins over 50/50 win loss. He was less than 1100 elo. How did this happen? Because solo ranked is garbage and has no skill bearing. Every time I won, round 2 their fourth left. I got +9. Every time I lost, my fourth left round 2, I lost the standard -13.

 

In short, swearing by solo ranked will get you nowhere, it is ruled by RNG, fotm stacking and "playing the queue"

[JediMasterAlex]

Here are some facts backed by elo numbers. My DPS Jugg was 43 wins over 50/50 win loss. He was less than 1100 elo. How did this happen? Because solo ranked is garbage and has no skill bearing. Every time I won, round 2 their fourth left. I got +9. Every time I lost, my fourth left round 2, I lost the standard -13.

 

In short, swearing by solo ranked will get you nowhere, it is ruled by RNG, fotm stacking and "playing the queue"

 

Hogwash. If you're 43 wins over .500 and still only 1100 elo, that means you must have played a lot of games, like 343-300. In that amount of games, you didn't get a leaver in the second round every time, only a tiny minority of the time. Plus, leavers like that are extremely rare, at least on Star Forge. Maybe SS is different. And if you've played enough games and are still that rating, that's the rating you belong at, maybe +/- 100 elo.

 

If you're 43 wins over .500 and your overall record was something like 93-50, that means that you must have placed extraordinarily low, like going 0-10 in placements or something.

 

Those are the only ways to make sense of those numbers, but maybe you can elaborate further. Either way, nothing about what you've said suggests that there's anything wrong with the elo system as it stands. RNG is irrelevant given enough games played. "Playing the queue" has severe limits for dps players. FOTM stacking, or just class stacking in general, is something Bioware should fix, but we all deal with it equally, and if you play enough games, it all evens out.

Edited October 11, 2019 by JediMasterAlex

[Seterade]

I placed originaly at 1280, 6-4

 

we have two wonderful people on SS, their names are g3a and smo0chy. I suggest you go look them up. I believe they are like sub 300 elo. they queue all day long, and poisen the low elo tier.

 

and thats just the two trolls, there are several "leet" players who use incog accounts (I know 3 of them) who if they know its a loss by round two, just leave.. cuz why not? incog and rating doesnt buy rewards.

Edited October 11, 2019 by Seterade

[JediMasterAlex]

I placed originaly at 1280, 6-4

 

And then you dropped to 1100, yet somehow ended up 43 games over .500? Doesn't seem to add up. What was your record overall?

[Seterade]

And then you dropped to 1100, yet somehow ended up 43 games over .500? Doesn't seem to add up. What was your record overall?

 

before I deleted him to make room for 6.0 toons he was some where around 600 games played. since I dont have him anymore I cant look at his screen but its about mathwise 200 losses and 400 wins.

 

edit: 43... I dont know why I used 93... so 275 losses and 325 wins I guess.. whatever. 600 games played. I really have fallen behind my math.. jeez. fixed.

Edited October 11, 2019 by Seterade

[JediMasterAlex]

before I deleted him to make room for 6.0 toons he was some where around 600 games played. since I dont have him anymore I cant look at his screen but its about mathwise 200 losses and 400 wins.

 

edit: 43... I dont know why I used 93... so 250 losses and 350 wins I guess.. whatever. 600 games played.

 

Sure, let's call it something like 322 wins 279 losses. That's 43 games over .500. With that amount of games, that's not necessarily a lot more wins than losses, especially considering that you're being matched based on elo in the first place. In other words, someone could end up with a similar record playing in the 1400-1500 range, because it will be giving them worse teammates than the 1100 player.

 

The real problem is that you're playing jugg in solo ranked. That's just a hard class to climb with even if you're pretty good. That's just a balance issue, not a ranked issue.

Edited October 11, 2019 by JediMasterAlex

[Seterade]

my terrifying level of math skills aside, my original point still stands. scoreing 50 wins over 50/50 is good enough for silver, yet he couldnt break out of blue elo. You claim is "play enough games and if you're good you'll emerge with high elo" 600 games roughly, higher than 50/50 win rate isnt even bronze in solo ranked.

[JediMasterAlex]

my terrifying level of math skills aside, my original point still stands. scoreing 50 wins over 50/50 is good enough for silver, yet he couldnt break out of blue elo. You claim is "play enough games and if you're good you'll emerge with high elo" 600 games roughly, higher than 50/50 win rate isnt even bronze in solo ranked.

 

The only thing you've done is clarify that I should have added another caveat I didn't think I had to add. Some classes are much easier to get higher elo on than others. The overall point still stands. I mean, there are dps juggs that are able to climb to silver and gold. Not many, but a few. Are you saying that's all pure luck or wintrading?

[Seterade]

I won't call anyone a wintrader unless I see it. Assume makes and @ss out of u and me. But I would say with 100% certainty a dps jugg can't climb consistently without "playing the queue" or "luck". an excellent 9-1 beginning will generaly put you around 1350 and a little rngeezus or queueing only when you know who is in queue and it's in your favor is what I would say is happening.

 

My point is if you queue 24/7 you will not climb, unless you have rngeezus blessing. and your point was "play enough games and your skill will make you climb" which doesn't even make sense because elo increases loss the more you climb and decreases the farther you fall. meaning it is designed to keep you in place, not to help you climb, which relates back to "a working" elo population in which you climb to your teir and stay there because you fight 30 someodd people that are all the same skill level.

Edited October 11, 2019 by Seterade

[Lhancelot]

I won't call anyone a wintrader unless I see it. Assume makes and @ss out of u and me. But I would say with 100% certainty a dps jugg can't climb consistently without "playing the queue" or "luck". an excellent 9-1 beginning will generaly put you around 1350 and a little rngeezus or queueing only when you know who is in queue and it's in your favor is what I would say is happening.

 

My point is if you queue 24/7 you will not climb, unless you have rngeezus blessing. and your point was "play enough games and your skill will make you climb" which doesn't even make sense because elo increases loss the more you climb and decreases the farther you fall. meaning it is designed to keep you in place, not to help you climb, which relates back to "a working" elo population in which you climb to your teir and stay there because you fight 30 someodd people that are all the same skill level.

 

Well this explanation right here blows the narrative that if you "just play a lot of games you will naturally climb the ELO ratings" out the water.

[KendraP]

Well this explanation right here blows the narrative that if you "just play a lot of games you will naturally climb the ELO ratings" out the water.

 

I've used a similar explanation myself only to get told such things are wintrading or not happening by a certain someone... (not you)

Edited October 11, 2019 by KendraP

[JediMasterAlex]

Well this explanation right here blows the narrative that if you "just play a lot of games you will naturally climb the ELO ratings" out the water.

 

First, I never said you will naturally climb...I said you will get a relatively accurate rating that reflects your skill level. Many players aren't that good or don't improve, so they don't climb, which is as it should be. Also, did you read his post? Here's the key part:

But I would say with 100% certainty a dps jugg can't climb consistently without "playing the queue" or "luck".

Bold added for emphasis.

 

For certain classes, it is more difficult to climb. For dps pts, it's virtually impossible, at least I've never seen it. For dps juggs, it's very difficult, but it does happen (there are a handful of dps juggs on SF that are good enough to do it. I've seen them in enough matches for myself to know that it's possible). For dps sins and sorcs, it's fairly difficult, but much more doable. For snipers and ops, the skill ceiling is higher, but if you're good it's not too bad. For maras and mercs, it's pretty easy if you're a competent player. For jugg tanks and healing sorcs, it's really easy if you're good. Obviously spec matters too for a lot of these, but they're generally true.

 

Speaking from personal experience, during season 10 I almost exclusively played on my main, which is a madness sorc, near the bottom of the meta. I played hundreds of games, and my elo fluctuated a lot throughout the season. But as I improved, my elo slowly went up and my swings in elo lessened. Eventually, near the end of the season, I was able to climb all the way up to gold. I'm hardly the only person that has been able to do it. I didn't wintrade, I didn't "play the queue," and it certainly wasn't luck when you consider that I played many hundreds of games to do it. In season 11, I have also played hundreds of games on my main. I got gold fairly early on, and the elo that I stayed at was much more consistent all the way through, staying mainly between 1400-1550.

 

If you play enough games in ranked, you will get a ranking that is reflective of your skill in ranked on that class, and obviously not all classes are created equal. It's more impressive to get to 1300 on a dps jugg than it is to do so on a dps merc, for example. Blame Bioware for bad class balance.

Edited October 11, 2019 by JediMasterAlex

[Lhancelot]

First, I never said you will naturally climb...I said you will get a relatively accurate rating that reflects your skill level. Many players aren't that good or don't improve, so they don't climb, which is as it should be. Also, did you read his post? Here's the key part:

 

Bold added for emphasis.

 

For certain classes, it is more difficult to climb. For dps pts, it's virtually impossible, at least I've never seen it. For dps juggs, it's very difficult, but it does happen (there are a handful of dps juggs on SF that are good enough to do it. I've seen them in enough matches for myself to know that it's possible). For dps sins and sorcs, it's fairly difficult, but much more doable. For snipers and ops, the skill ceiling is higher, but if you're good it's not too bad. For maras and mercs, it's pretty easy if you're a competent player. For jugg tanks and healing sorcs, it's really easy if you're good. Obviously spec matters too for a lot of these, but they're generally true.

 

Speaking from personal experience, during season 10 I almost exclusively played on my main, which is a madness sorc, near the bottom of the meta. I played hundreds of games, and my elo fluctuated a lot throughout the season. But as I improved, my elo slowly went up and my swings in elo lessened. Eventually, near the end of the season, I was able to climb all the way up to gold. I'm hardly the only person that has been able to do it. I didn't wintrade, I didn't "play the queue," and it certainly wasn't luck when you consider that I played many hundreds of games to do it. In season 11, I have also played hundreds of games on my main. I got gold fairly early on, and the elo that I stayed at was much more consistent all the way through, staying mainly between 1400-1550.

 

If you play enough games in ranked, you will get a ranking that is reflective of your skill in ranked on that class, and obviously not all classes are created equal. It's more impressive to get to 1300 on a dps jugg than it is to do so on a dps merc, for example. Blame Bioware for bad class balance.

 

When your narrative is held together by tons of "ifs" and other caveats, it becomes far more complicated of a situation to explain, right? Which is our point in a nutshell.

 

Rating is not an accurate representation of a player's skill and the fact you have to add so many caveats to your "proof" that it is says all anyone needs to know when it comes to rating and an actual player's skill level.

[Raansu]

If this was any other game with a decent population....yes you would eventually climb if you actually improved or likely average out and keep your same rating range. This game does not have a population to even remotely support a working ELO system thus leading to constant wide spreads of player ratings and ease of gaming the queue by putting certain people on your friends list and avoiding them which is why everyone takes solo rating with a grain of salt. Its a mix of luck, some skill, and what class you play.

 

If your class cannot "carry" then have fun praying to get good groups while you try to game the matchmaking to avoid certain players and get queued with others.....something EVERYONE does which would be impossible if this game had an actual active pvp population and not the 20 odd consistent players that bother to queue.

Edited October 11, 2019 by Raansu

[JediMasterAlex]

When your narrative is held together by tons of "ifs" and other caveats, it becomes far more complicated of a situation to explain, right? Which is our point in a nutshell.

 

???

 

Rating is not an accurate representation of a player's skill and the fact you have to add so many caveats to your "proof" that it is says all anyone needs to know when it comes to rating and an actual player's skill level.

 

Once again with the total nonsense. You are clueless, and clearly the type of person that can't comprehend nuance. As soon as anything becomes the least bit complex you throw your hands in the air and claim victory like a child. Your inability to comprehend how ranked works and the significance of rating is out of my hands.

 

If this was any other game with a decent population....yes you would eventually climb if you actually improved or likely average out and keep your same rating range. This game does not have a population to even remotely support a working ELO system thus leading to constant wide spreads of player ratings and ease of gaming the queue by putting certain people on your friends list and avoiding them which is why everyone takes solo rating with a grain of salt. Its a mix of luck, some skill, and what class you play.

 

If your class cannot "carry" then have fun praying to get good groups while you try to game the matchmaking to avoid certain players and get queued with others.....something EVERYONE does which would be impossible if this game had an actual active pvp population and not the 20 odd consistent players that bother to queue.

 

Again, nothing you said affects the underlying point that if you play enough games, better players will have higher ratings, and worse players will have lower ratings. The significance of those ratings differs from class to class. If everyone could only play 10 games, then you would be right. It would be totally luck/population dependent. But if you play hundreds of games, those variables are essentially removed, and you become the only constant.

[Raansu]

Again, nothing you said affects the underlying point that if you play enough games, better players will have higher ratings, and worse players will have lower ratings. The significance of those ratings differs from class to class. If everyone could only play 10 games, then you would be right. It would be totally luck/population dependent. But if you play hundreds of games, those variables are essentially removed, and you become the only constant.

 

No amount of games will fix the constant issue of there simply not being enough players for elo to work correctly. If you get a high rating, you're likely to get paired with other high rated players and your opposing team will likely always be low rated players.

 

Repeat it with me now. There is simply not enough players playing ranked for elo to be an accurate evaluation of skill.

 

I've seen people with high rating who are absolutely terrible, but they got the high rating by queue syncing and gaming the queue in general. Its not hard to do and as I said before, there's a reason NO ONE takes solo ranked rating seriously. Even actual good players don't take it seriously. Solo rating is a joke.

[JediMasterAlex]

No amount of games will fix the constant issue of there simply not being enough players for elo to work correctly. If you get a high rating, you're likely to get paired with other high rated players and your opposing team will likely always be low rated players.

 

Wrong. That's how it used to work. It doesn't work that way anymore since they changed matchmaking. Now it makes the most even teams possible. So if you are a high rated player, you usually get the lowest rated players on your team.

 

I've seen people with high rating who are absolutely terrible, but they got the high rating by queue syncing and gaming the queue in general. Its not hard to do and as I said before, there's a reason NO ONE takes solo ranked rating seriously. Even actual good players don't take it seriously. Solo rating is a joke.

 

None of that is true. "queue syncing and gaming the queue in general" is virtually impossible for dps players. Yes, tanks and healers can choose to only queue when there are worse tanks/healers than them in queue, but dps can't.

 

Just more misinformation from a person that can't succeed at solo ranked themselves, so they blame the system. It's surprisingly common, so you're hardly alone.

Edited October 12, 2019 by JediMasterAlex

[Raansu]

Just more misinformation from a person that can't succeed at solo ranked themselves, so they blame the system. It's surprisingly common, so you're hardly alone.

 

Ya sure ok buddy. Everything I said is things I've done myself. I built a list of players on my friend list to avoid and only queued when they were already in a match and a list of good players to sync and get matched with. 9 times out of 10 I got placed in matches in my favor because it was easy to work the queue. Its harder with cross faction, but its still doable considering there's so few people every season doing ranked.

 

Its one of the many reasons I stopped playing arenas aside from it just being straight up boring. They need to bring 8v8 ranked back.

Edited October 12, 2019 by Raansu

[JediMasterAlex]

Ya sure ok buddy. Everything I said is things I've done myself. I built a list of players on my friend list to avoid and only queued when they were already in a match and a list of good players to sync and get matched with. 9 times out of 10 I got placed in matches in my favor because it was easy to work the queue. Its harder with cross faction, but its still doable considering there's so few people every season doing ranked.

 

Its one of the many reasons I stopped playing arenas aside from it just being straight up boring. They need to bring 8v8 ranked back.

 

With cross faction and the new matchmaking, and the fact that most of the time there is only one game going at a time, none of what you mention would work now. Everything you mentioned is good evidence for season 8-9 being trash, but they don't apply now.

Edited October 12, 2019 by JediMasterAlex

[Raansu]

and the fact that most of the time there is only one game going at a time,

 

Which just furthers my point....ELO doesn't work with low population. Your rating means jack.

Edited October 13, 2019 by Raansu

[KendraP]

Which just furthers my point....ELO doesn't work with low population. Your rating means jack.

 

There is no way to fix a low population outside of recruitment... but he doesnt want to accept that detail.

[JediMasterAlex]

Which just furthers my point....ELO doesn't work with low population. Your rating means jack.

 

It certainly doesn't work as well, but it does still work if you play enough games. Sometimes there are only 8-16 people queueing at a time, but there are still thousands of people playing ranked throughout the season. You people don't seem to understand how elo and matchmaking actually work. People have discussed this topic before in greater detail. You can feel free to google how elo systems work for yourself, or god forbid you can actually play ranked. It's quite fun despite what the people on the forums, who don't play ranked, say about it.

 

It always amazes me when people who have no clue what they're talking about have the gall to post nonsense over and over. But I guess that's common on any forum.

Edited October 13, 2019 by JediMasterAlex