Thank you BW

[TrixxieTriss]

Meanwhile, the MMO market is still strong as heck and being completely ignored by tthe big names in favor of quick bucks on a myriad of shooter clones and micro-transactions.

WoW BFA was a disaster but its still the market leader, Final Fantasy, ESO, Guild Wars... all doing well, but none will ever be what WoW was or what the rotating Fortnite clones are as they dont have as broad appeal. This game could still be huge if EA would only support it and make a few intelligent decisions.

 

It always amazes me when I see other people post on forums about how the MMO market is dead and that’s why no one is making AAA MMOs anymore.

But it’s obvious the market isn’t dead and if anything, it may start to come back in favour with more people because of shooter overload and fatigue. Similarly how people got MMO fatigue when everyone was trying to make WoW clones.

I think the problem is parent companies see one game do well and most of the industry tries to jump on the band wagon and replicate it. Obviously this can work if there is a large player trend towards a specific game type, but when the market gets flooded with basically the same style of games, there aren’t enough people to play them all and the best get picked and the rest die off.

The way I see it, there is less innovation these day and if someone is innovative, the rest of the industry copies them because it’s easier than being unique on their own.

I think the original devs had an innovative and different idea for swtor, but EAs take over of Bioware, led them to change swtor into more of a WoW clone and I think that was a massive loss.

[foxmob]

It always amazes me when I see other people post on forums about how the MMO market is dead and that’s why no one is making AAA MMOs anymore.

But it’s obvious the market isn’t dead and if anything, it may start to come back in favour with more people because of shooter overload and fatigue.

you do realize that mouse and keyboard games are dying in all genres, right?

 

let me put it another way, the end user cost of games (console & pc) hasn't moved in twenty years (closer to thirty!): $50-$60. zero inflation over that period is, itself, untenable. now take into consideration the advancement in development costs and degree of sophistication that gamers demand of these games. the entire gaming industry is dying. production companies come and go with the drop of a hat. even distributors (like EA/Activision) struggle.

 

at the moment, the best bang for the buck in game design/production is portable tablet/phone/touch crap. they're relatively low overhead/cost of production.

 

you're probably aware of all of this, so sorry for the lecture, but my point is this: nobody can afford the break-in costs to challenge WoW (the only "AAA MMORPG"). the half-arsed version we have now (cartel market dominated, less original rewards and homgeonized quests with sluggish content updates) is about as close to economically balanced as you're going to get with MMORPGs, imo. and it's a far cry from the constant updates and new content that blizzard roles out.

[Banderal]

I would encourage every pvper who cares about balance to jump on the PTS to help test (when it’s back up).

 

You posted this yesterday, and I don't see anyone replying to this specific thing after my quick-n-lazy scan, but you do know that the PTS is up, right? It was up yesterday. I think in fact it's been back up for a few days now, but I didn't notice right away the post that it was back up because they didn't sticky it.

 

I was kinda watching for it in the PTS forum, and by the time I noticed it the post was already near the bottom of the page. Then upon reading I saw that it was already a couple days old.

[JediMasterAlex]

Now they are using the PTS and if pvpers are too lazy or don’t care enough to test it properly, then people who don’t test have less credibility if they QQ about balance. They need to be part of the solution and not part of the problem.

 

I'll start testing on the PTS when they roll out 2.0, when I assume they'll have added the new stuff for all classes and will have organized pvp events. I'm not really into parsing.

 

Edit: changed my mind, downloaded and played on pts. Madness sorcs are officially terrible in pvp

Edited August 2, 2019 by JediMasterAlex

[Floplag]

It always amazes me when I see other people post on forums about how the MMO market is dead and that’s why no one is making AAA MMOs anymore.

But it’s obvious the market isn’t dead and if anything, it may start to come back in favour with more people because of shooter overload and fatigue. Similarly how people got MMO fatigue when everyone was trying to make WoW clones.

I think the problem is parent companies see one game do well and most of the industry tries to jump on the band wagon and replicate it. Obviously this can work if there is a large player trend towards a specific game type, but when the market gets flooded with basically the same style of games, there aren’t enough people to play them all and the best get picked and the rest die off.

The way I see it, there is less innovation these day and if someone is innovative, the rest of the industry copies them because it’s easier than being unique on their own.

I think the original devs had an innovative and different idea for swtor, but EAs take over of Bioware, led them to change swtor into more of a WoW clone and I think that was a massive loss.

 

The problem is that comparatively speaking 2 things are happening, gaming in general is shifting to handhelds and mobile devices, and games like whatever the latest PUBG/Fortnite clone is are getting all the attention due to limited investment of time required.

MMOs have been given the death sentence for a decade now, but i would argue they are stronger then ever. BUT... and heres the real problem, none of them are generating the hype other genres are, meaning less opportunity for micro transactions and all that jazz.

At one point in time we were the larger segment of the gaming community, this is no longer true. Youve got 13 year old kids playing online fortnite tournaments and such, 16 year olds winning millions... we have nothing like that to offer. It takes a ton of investment to create and maintain an MMO, few companies are willing to do it anymore over putting out some garbage mobile game to make a few quick bucks before the next one comes out.

Those who do, are being rewarded, but its still not the scale other games are seeing.

[DavidAtkinson]

No, I don’t expect it to be perfect. But if things are tested and feed back given and they completely ignore it, then Bioware are fully to blame if it’s out of balance too much.

But if we totally leave it up to them and don’t test or provide feed back and they get it wrong, that’s partially on us.

We all know Bioware can’t do this by themselves, they literally have zero idea how to test balance in pvp on their own.

Only when pvpers play/test changes does it reveal weaknesses and strengths as tactics and strategy are developed.

Over the years Bioware haven’t used the PTS to test changes or ask for feed back on balancing. So all of those balance issues are on Bioware. We all QQ’d and raged at them for good reason because the changes went live and they still didn’t listen.

Now they are using the PTS and if pvpers are too lazy or don’t care enough to test it properly, then people who don’t test have less credibility if they QQ about balance. They need to be part of the solution and not part of the problem.

 

Dude.. are you this naive ?

 

The only people complaining about class balance are the PVP-ers which means that on this forum it's the same 2, 3 people....

 

Just go read the PTS section for sniper. It's quite obvious that the new changes for that class will make it even more stronger than it is today, but you don't see almost anyone mention that in the comments for feedback.

So they will ignore the people saying it's OP because the majority of the comments say otherwise.,

 

 

So I hope you will enjoy your broken 6.0 PVP life where what is Strong Now is even stronger....

[laiboch]

Dude.. are you this naive ?

 

The only people complaining about class balance are the PVP-ers which means that on this forum it's the same 2, 3 people....

 

Just go read the PTS section for sniper. It's quite obvious that the new changes for that class will make it even more stronger than it is today, but you don't see almost anyone mention that in the comments for feedback.

So they will ignore the people saying it's OP because the majority of the comments say otherwise.,

 

 

So I hope you will enjoy your broken 6.0 PVP life where what is Strong Now is even stronger....

 

No there are valid complaints in PVE as well with massive disparity in DPS from class to class and beyond that. Bioware needs to address many of these issues and by doing so will help both PVP and PVE players, or like many of of that do both it would be nice to see the class we play be as effective in both as they currently are in one mode or the other.

 

Sick of them adding skills only to cause more issues. IMO it would be better if they streamlined the classes and made them far more balanced than they currently are. Set a target DPS for all melee and one for ranged and adjust skills so those numbers are hit by all classes minding gear etc.

[KendraP]

No there are valid complaints in PVE as well with massive disparity in DPS from class to class and beyond that. Bioware needs to address many of these issues and by doing so will help both PVP and PVE players, or like many of of that do both it would be nice to see the class we play be as effective in both as they currently are in one mode or the other.

 

Sick of them adding skills only to cause more issues. IMO it would be better if they streamlined the classes and made them far more balanced than they currently are. Set a target DPS for all melee and one for ranged and adjust skills so those numbers are hit by all classes minding gear etc.

 

Supposedly they already do something of this sort but they account for sustained vs burst in addition to melee. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9333043

 

Not saying if I agree or disagree with anything musco posted there, or if I think they accomplished their stated goals. Just say g that they have said that they do base values off a target value, depending on 2 variables: ranged/melee and burst/sustained.

[Seterade]

max parse level dont work in pvp, because pvp is largely rotated around dcds, LoS, antifocus, and "escape" (stealth out and heal)

[KendraP]

max parse level dont work in pvp, because pvp is largely rotated around dcds, LoS, antifocus, and "escape" (stealth out and heal)

And if you notice, the guy I responded to was talking about PvE

[Seterade]

he referenced both as his topic, at least twice, within the first 3 sentences. I am not here to argue. I merely stated that as a responce to him, which he seems to believe dps parse adjustment will have an affect on pvp.

[Severith]

I'm not sure why you would think that there are many changes coming with new skills and we do not yet have any idea how they will integrate or who will become stronger or weaker. WE are in fact completely guessing.

 

New expansions ALWAYS suck balance wise in the beginning, literally every game ive ever played regardless of the amount of testing done has issues at launch. Expecting proper balance at launch isnt realistic or practical as until its in the hands of the masses there is just no way to know.

 

Im excited for it myself, i think it will bring new life and energy to the game, but only if we go in with an open mind and proper expectations.

 

After 5.0 launched, it took a year, exactly and without exaggeration, a year for a balancing patch to come out.

 

Not expecting perfect balance at launch in other mmos is fine, because they patch it within a month or two. People playing SWTOR know that however 6.0 manages to launch is what they're going to be stuck with for a very long time.

 

Is that realistic or practical enough for you? We already know how this is going to play out, because there's just too much evidence and and bad history against Bioware for a rational person to think otherwise.

[DavidAtkinson]

After 5.0 launched, it took a year, exactly and without exaggeration, a year for a balancing patch to come out.

 

Not expecting perfect balance at launch in other mmos is fine, because they patch it within a month or two. People playing SWTOR know that however 6.0 manages to launch is what they're going to be stuck with for a very long time.

 

Is that realistic or practical enough for you? We already know how this is going to play out, because there's just too much evidence and and bad history against Bioware for a rational person to think otherwise.

 

Yes bro and I can still remember people on this forum opening threads talking about how OP mercs are in PVP and begged them for balance and despite all this, for 6.0 they will add an armor rating increase ability for mercs and PT that will last 15 seconds. At least this is what I hear people talking.

 

Just to show you how clueless they are about their own game and how classes work and what state they are in now since 5.0 if what I said above is true.

[Floplag]

Yes bro and I can still remember people on this forum opening threads talking about how OP mercs are in PVP and begged them for balance and despite all this, for 6.0 they will add an armor rating increase ability for mercs and PT that will last 15 seconds. At least this is what I hear people talking.

 

Just to show you how clueless they are about their own game and how classes work and what state they are in now since 5.0 if what I said above is true.

 

Just like in 4.0 when every Merc was begging for help when we were getting globaled, but no one seems to remember that

[foxmob]

Just like in 4.0 when every Merc was begging for help when we were getting globaled, but no one seems to remember that

 

having exactly zero options when stunned w/o guard was crazy. you could pre-press kolto and pray. reflect-htf is drastic and cookie-cutter, but at least it's something other than "sit there and die."

Edited August 3, 2019 by foxmob

[Floplag]

People keep using 5.0 likeit has any bearing on 6, it doesnt.

Havent you guys figured out that the original plan was that 6.x was supposed to be the end? Whatever changed that and gave us 6.0 and hopefully beyond im thankful for but comparing it to 5.x is silly at this point

[Floplag]

having exactly zero options when stunned w/o guard was crazy. you could pre-press kolto and pray. reflect-htf is drastic and cookie-cutter, but at least it's something other than "sit there and die."

 

Stop me if you heard this one fox ... Mercs are fine get good... lolololololol

[foxmob]

Stop me if you heard this one fox ... Mercs are fine get good... lolololololol

 

yeah. but having reflect heal to full and a heal shield was a pretty drastic measure. I just don't think BW makes good balance decisions. they don't make frequent enough adjustments to temper the ones they do make. at least that's my experience. they're very slow to move, and when they move, it's excessive.

[Floplag]

yeah. but having reflect heal to full and a heal shield was a pretty drastic measure. I just don't think BW makes good balance decisions. they don't make frequent enough adjustments to temper the ones they do make. at least that's my experience. they're very slow to move, and when they move, it's excessive.

 

Oh i agree it went to far, but ... a lot of that is still dependent on people being dumb enough to blast into us during them which they seem to be smart enough not to do with other similar mechanics, but somehow braindead on ours.

[Dyne-]

Oh i agree it went to far, but ... a lot of that is still dependent on people being dumb enough to blast into us during them which they seem to be smart enough not to do with other similar mechanics, but somehow braindead on ours.

 

This argument is tired, just let it die already. The amount of information you have to ignore in order to believe merc DCDs are balanced is staggering. Having 20+ seconds of "lol don't touch me while I shoot you in the face for free" was and still is overkill.

 

Just call it what it is man. The class was garb before, and now it's overtuned. You like it that way and enjoy playing it in it's current state. No shame in admitting it, but don't insult everyone's intelligence in the process.

[JediMasterAlex]

This argument is tired, just let it die already. The amount of information you have to ignore in order to believe merc DCDs are balanced is staggering. Having 20+ seconds of "lol don't touch me while I shoot you in the face for free" was and still is overkill.

 

Just call it what it is man. The class was garb before, and now it's overtuned. You like it that way and enjoy playing it in it's current state. No shame in admitting it, but don't insult everyone's intelligence in the process.

 

This post is accurate. The previous state of mercs in past expansions is irrelevant to their current performance. Merc dcds are obviously far too strong, and it has nothing to do with people "blasting into them."

[Rion_Starkiller]

yeah. but having reflect heal to full and a heal shield was a pretty drastic measure. I just don't think BW makes good balance decisions. they don't make frequent enough adjustments to temper the ones they do make. at least that's my experience. they're very slow to move, and when they move, it's excessive.

 

It has a clear and obvious visual effect, and if WZ regstars weren't -- as a whole -- so terribad, merc/mandos would be mezzed, kited, or LOS'd while it was up.

 

The way to beat them is with mobility (they are literally slow moving turtles!), which is why e-net is so out of place for the class. I think Hottie has a whole thread on e-net.

Edited August 8, 2019 by Rion_Starkiller

[Floplag]

This argument is tired, just let it die already. The amount of information you have to ignore in order to believe merc DCDs are balanced is staggering. Having 20+ seconds of "lol don't touch me while I shoot you in the face for free" was and still is overkill.

 

Just call it what it is man. The class was garb before, and now it's overtuned. You like it that way and enjoy playing it in it's current state. No shame in admitting it, but don't insult everyone's intelligence in the process.

 

i dont believe anyone suggested they are balanced, only that being what they are people still play them wrong.

[DavidAtkinson]

i dont believe anyone suggested they are balanced, only that being what they are people still play them wrong.

 

Most people roll merc cause they heard it's OP and think they gonna rock with it... Funny thing is that defenes being so stronk, you can hide easily behind them as a noob.

Edited August 8, 2019 by DavidAtkinson

[KendraP]

which is why e-net is so out of place for the class. I think Hottie has a whole thread on e-net.

 

You mean, the thread that got derailed to the point of uselessness by a pointless debate as to who is more relevant or the true greatest PVPer?