Operative Feedback

[PrivateerArris]

About lethality operative.

Tactical Items:

1. Synox Shots - Toxic Blast does 50% more damage. Useless. Suggestion - none. Its useless.

 

Lethal Strike increase your movement speed by 50% for X seconds and increase duration of Augmented Toxins for X seconds

[Drunken-Monkey]

Since nobody already brought this topic to the table, I want add for consideration, that nerfing the roll (effectively double it's cooldown) will have a huge impact on the class in PvP.

 

Please consider, that the roll fulfills many tasks. It's not only a defensive CD, but it's basically (except from holotraverse) our only relevant movement skill. You depend on it for chasing/gap closing AND running away.

 

The nerf doesn't affect medicine so much, since it relies more on healing/facetanking anyway. In fact, it could even mean a small buff, since you don't need to roll twice all 10 seconds for the unshakebale buff, but once.

 

But for the DD specs, especially for concealment, the nerf will hurt the class much. Tbh, in the light of all the new defensive abilities, which are granted to other classes, a nerf was the last I expected.

Tactical overdrive and thus a second stim boost won't save any operative under pressure. 20% DR and a small heal have literally no effect when 3 or 4 people are hitting you (arena). You most likely don't get the chance to activate stim boost a second time anyway, since you already died.

 

Please keep this in mind: Operative is (most likely) the best dueling class (if played correctly), BUT dueling is no game mode (except from community events like the URC). I know, that dueling has it's place in regs and arenas. It happens now and then. And an operative who knows his way around can stall caps almost endlessly (against inexpericend players). But the same could be said about snipers, assassins, sorcs and mercs (and I don't even put healer specs in this equation). But you should balance a class around most common situations and not around special occurences.

 

Every class has it's place and situation to shine. And that's absolutely fine. The perfect balance cannot be achieved, except you make all classes equal, which would result in the most boring game ever.

But I belief, you can make at least every class/spec VIABLE. Not perfectly balanced but viable.

 

Conclusion: Usually I don't forecast the sky will fall on a class premature in the forefront of a major update. It's hard to tell, how things work out in PvP's "everday life", but in this case "I have a very bad feeling about this..."

[PrivateerArris]

PVP. Ok, lets duscuss jesus immortal roll in conceal or roll + holotraverse on hutball as example

 

Its NEED to be nerf and increase cooldown very soft nerf in current situation

Edited August 3, 2019 by PrivateerArris

[Iymurra]

I agree with you in theory that concealments roll needed to be nerfed to a degree.

However, roll (as stated) is an integral part of the operatives survivability.

With roll essentially being nerfed to 50% uptime from previous, how are Operatives going to increase their survivability?

[cibacrome]

Right now I'm liking Leth Op PVE, but that thing that everyone is concerned about has already reared its head, and that's the tendency to funnel down to meta. The way stats are now, there seems to be only one choice for DPS and that's 2% accuracy 2-set, and berserker 4 set, plus maybe 2 tacticals - greased lightning, viral elements (for fights with adds).

 

To between the new accuracy & alacrity thresholds, both of which are mandatory to reach, it just doesn't make sense to take sets without the 2% accuracy buff. I've tried several of the op sets that seemed to make sense, and they're a big nerf vs the accuracy + berserker set from general.

 

Viral elements is super fun in mobs / adds situations. I think greased lightning might be bugged, seems like it'd be more of a boost than it is. I can't find another leth op tactical that makes any sense for lethality, whereas concealement & medicine have several choices specific to their abilities.

[Drunken-Monkey]

PVP. Ok, lets duscuss jesus immortal roll in conceal or roll + holotraverse on hutball as example

 

Its NEED to be nerf and increase cooldown very soft nerf in current situation

 

Oh, you think roll and holotraverse is bad?. Wait until you see 4xroll in a row by snipers, double jump of marauders, triple jump by juggernauts, double shadow stride by assassins + pull if tank, or double charge AND double grapple by powertechs in 6.0.

 

Not to mention all the other already existing abilities in the game, which are awesome for huttball. A good sorc can save the day for every ballcarrier with a smart phasewalk and pull.

 

Just because most people don't play their class to their full extend, doesn't mean they're useless. The problem, as most of the time, is located behind the keyboard.

The only class, which has a little bit of a disadvantage per design for huttball maps is the merc. He just doesn't bring the high mobility abilities of other classes to the table.

 

But yeah...here again applies rule #1 for SWTOR balancing. In doubt always "Nerf operatives"

[PrivateerArris]

Oh, you think roll and holotraverse is bad?. Wait until you see 4xroll in a row by snipers, double jump of marauders, triple jump by juggernauts, double shadow stride by assassins + pull if tank, or double charge AND double grapple by powertechs in 6.0.

 

Not to mention all the other already existing abilities in the game, which are awesome for huttball. A good sorc can save the day for every ballcarrier with a smart phasewalk and pull.

 

Just because most people don't play their class to their full extend, doesn't mean they're useless. The problem, as most of the time, is located behind the keyboard.

The only class, which has a little bit of a disadvantage per design for huttball maps is the merc. He just doesn't bring the high mobility abilities of other classes to the table.

 

But yeah...here again applies rule #1 for SWTOR balancing. In doubt always "Nerf operatives"

 

Demagogy. I dont see anything about balance, pro et contra etc.

 

Most mobile class in game with seflheal, teleport, stealth escape, jesus roll, god burst and 3 cc's. And you start crying about lighty nerf that really need. Are you kiddin me?

Edited August 3, 2019 by PrivateerArris

[AllisonLightning]

I have been testing the Medicine Operative healing changes on the PTS and overall I have been pretty underwhelmed.

Keep in mind I am posting about PvE.

 

I'll start with the positives.

I like the new ability, Tactical Overdrive. It is nice to be able to reset the CD on Stim Boost, since it has so many different reasons to use it. I'll feel better about using Stim Boost aggressively, knowing I can have a backup if I need it as a defensive later. A 1 minute cooldown seems strange, a 1.5 or 2 min cooldown might me more appropriate. Not 3 minutes though.

 

Now everything else.

The only set bonus worth using is the Aggressive Treatment set, which causes Toxic Haze to heal for a minor amount. I imagine that either the wording is wrong or the heal is stronger than intended, since it makes each Toxic Haze tick heal for the same amount as each tick of Kolto Waves. That is not a minor amount.

 

-The other bonuses are so unimportant I would consider using 3 different (2) piece set bonuses instead, just for the extra stats. If Aggressive Treatment gets nerfed, it will bring the number of set bonuses I want to take down from 1 to 0. They just don't really matter.

-The Berserker set bonus has been changed and is no longer an alternative for healers.

 

The tacticals feel more useful than the set bonuses.

-The Diagnosis Probe reducing the cast time of Kolto Injection is nice, and feels good to use.

-The additional healing on Kolto Waves will be good in heavy AoE situations, so the Regenerative Waves tactical is fine in my book. Although it doesn't work well with the Aggressive Treatment set, so that is currently a big downside.

-Critical Surgery looks nice, but isn't quite enough. Having it only active on only such low health targets makes it a nice backup, however it goes against the general playstyle of the class. I would rather prevent major problems than try to catch up.

 

Moving onto the utility changes. The way the utilities are divided now causes so many useful utilities to be in the Heroic tier. Having only 3 points to put in Heroic, while being forced to put 6 in the other tiers just feels bad. I end up putting filler points into some utilities to get to the heroic tier, just to be punished by having all the ones I used to care about shoved into the last tier.

 

Lastly, it seems as though the overall healing numbers haven't increased as much as I would have thought, considering how much the player health pools have increased. Although to be fair I haven't done as much testing as I would have liked to figure it out for sure.

 

Overall, I feel as though Operative healers are losing more than they are gaining in 6.0.

I will miss the autocrit Kolto Injection, the reduced CD on Recuperative Nanotech, and the reduced energy cost of Kolto Infusion.

 

I've been favouring the Tactician's set- simply because I wasn't interested in solely buffing AoE healing capacity via a situational stationary AoE but other than that, you've summed up mostly how I feel about the changes.

 

Unless they buff our class significantly- Tactical Overdrive would need a minute cooldown and given how the ability works, we shouldn't need an OP ability to help our class make up for what we're losing. My current set bonuses for operative/scoundrel are more or less perfect.

 

Agree with the criticisms on Critical Surgery- if it was a default auto crit for SP, it would have my vote over casting KI while moving/instant rez- as it is, it's only useful in the way we shouldn't be playing the class, it should get reworked. I would suggest a stacking increase to the heal itself which holds for about ten seconds to a maximum of three/four. My major bug bear with the utilities is the sheer amount of useless abilities in the first tier which is where I wasted my third point as after damage reduction/AoE reduced damage, it's lackluster.

Edited August 4, 2019 by AllisonLightning

[jambalayabungee]

I think the Surgical Probe Tactical should be changed to:

Increases Surgical Probe Critical Chance by the amount of health the target is missing

 

So at 60% target health you'd get +40% crit chance, at 30% health +70% crit chance and so on

 

THIS.

The idea of scaling relative to the player's health would be a really interesting way to rework that tactical that I admit, is way less interesting than the 2 others just because of the 35% limit, if you consider the 2 other tacticals could be used all fight.

Other suggestions :

What if there was a dual effect like : under x % --> bonus , over x % --> another bonus so we could use it all the time .... by exemple , under 50 %, it always crit, over 50 % you apply the "protected" effect, or it apply a small Hot, or it gives you back some energy ... I dont know what would synergize the best, but just something fun and useful

 

Or, following the crit % scaling suggestion, if instead of the % crit it would be % increased Healing relative to the health of the person? I mean, crits are great, but its an 16k crit we are talking about, and with people having 280K + health pool it isnt as life changing as it should be. Having an ability with a bit more "oomf" in critical situation would be great, especially with the lost of the auto-crit injection , which was our biggest hitter in a clutch situation.

Edited August 4, 2019 by jambalayabungee

[Iymurra]

Some Concealment Feedback.

I'm biased, I never liked Volatile Substance, so I'm not a huge fan of how 2/3 of the concealment tacticals revolve around that one ability. That being said:

 

Explosive Cells: its a nice AoE damage boost. It does what it is supposed to.

Volatile Strike: I"m guessing this is meant to be the 'give your class more burst' tactical. Its theoretically good but fails in one primary respect: This tactical loses all effectiveness when Volatile Substance explodes from any of your poison damage abilities. To recap: Acid Blade (6s dot applied from Backstab, used rotationally), Corrosive Dart (damage boost when energy allows), Noxious Knives (AoE) and Toxic Haze (AoE) all do poison damage and all will set off Volatile Substance. At least two of these poison effects should be present relatively frequently (CD and AB) as well, since the tick rate is quick on those dots you don't frequently get to use Veiled Strike before the dot has ticked and blown your VS up. I think this tactical needs to be changed, a good example might be: Blowing up VS makes your next Veiled Strike an autocrit. Similar result, easier to access effect.

Acid Lash: I really like the idea of this tactical. Unfortunately its currently bugged and Laceration does not refresh the duration of the Acid Blade effect. This is an excellent tactical though, I hope it gets fixed quickly as it synergizes with already present passives in the concealment tree to make the class feel a little more than it was. Excellent idea whomever came up with this one.

 

Recap: Explosive Cells is fine, no WOW moments. Volatile Strike contradicts the playstyle of the class and should probably be adjusted to fall more in-line with how the class currently plays. Acid Lash is currently bugged but I'm eagerly awaiting its fix.

[Delani]

Fragmentation grenade reduces target accuracy by 40%

 

Tactical item suggestion

[jambalayabungee]

Anybody had the chance to test the Probe Shield set ? Its the kind of set that look great in theory, but Im not sure its worth it in practice.

 

I know its :

-5 meter range around you (a bit useless for healers ,which I assume are the one that might be more interested by that set, and hard to do in ops, that would be nice if it was at least 15 meters, or if we could be able to place it on somebody as range, or even on ppl of our choosing like a kind of minor sorc bubble (one can dream )

 

-could shield 8 ppl

 

-last for the same duration as your own shield (10 sec)

 

-dont benefit from the same effect than your own shield (if you took the Med Shield utility by example, that heals when done) ... I mean,that one don't surprise me, but we never know, that could have been nice

 

What I cant figure out is for how much that shield actually absorb damage, and basically if its worth it. Is it even working ?

 

I tried it during the Gharj fight, when ppl were taking damage when he jumps, and I could barely see the difference really. It doesnt help that it dont show under the "Shielding done", or that is doesnt show any kind of absorb value in starparse. I might just be blind tho, who knows . I quickly changed to another set as that one felt useless :/

 

I really wish this could work, I feel it could be an amazing tool combined with the AOE tactical by exemple (if they change the range tho, 5 meters is yucky)

[OasisKid]

I recently jumped on the PTS to browse stuff. and I am here to say I appreciate the overhaul and trying to bring something new to the table but for the most part the new set bonus things are just very lackluster and I do not see anything that stands out as really good for a healer. Perhaps the Tactical vs the set bonus is where it is at now?

[snave]

PVP. Ok, lets duscuss jesus immortal roll in conceal or roll + holotraverse on hutball as example

 

Its NEED to be nerf and increase cooldown very soft nerf in current situation

 

So I'm hopefully going to help educate you on operative as I'm guessing you've not played one in pvp.

 

Operative is not the best ball carrier in huttball. Never has been. Operative is the best class at taking advantage of bad players. Always has been.

 

Currently we have 2 rolls every 10s. It is not possible to score in 2 rolls without assistance, and with assistance snipers, mara, jugg, merc, pt, sorc and sin will all score in a comparable time frame.

 

Also, this nerf is so far from a "very soft nerf". The fact you say that really does highlight your lack of any understanding of operative in any spec, but especially in concealment.

 

This is roughly a 50% nerf. We will have 1 effective roll per 10s after the initial second charge is used. This nerf is so gargantuan I'm honestly blown away you'd even consider it very soft.

 

Roll is our gap closer, our method of escape and our main dcd. In PvP concealment will become one of the, if not the, least mobile class. Try to remember than concealment lives by running away and healing, and therefore doing zero damage. With this change we cannot run away, we cannot close the gap and we do not have any dcd close to keeping us alive under focus.

 

I'm happy to explain this to you further if you require it, and if you think concealment is over performing in any pvp game mode then you probably need it explained to you why they aren't and why you're objectively incorrect in everything you typed.

 

Demagogy. I dont see anything about balance, pro et contra etc.

 

Most mobile class in game with seflheal, teleport, stealth escape, jesus roll, god burst and 3 cc's. And you start crying about lighty nerf that really need. Are you kiddin me?

 

We aren't the most mobile class in the game. With this nerf we'll be the least mobile.

 

Roll needs to be timed correctly for immunity to be utilised and if we're using it to run away or gap close (like we are most of the time) then it'll be on cooldown. We do not have infinite rolls.

 

We do not have God burst and we have 3 cc's including sap, which can only be performed on targets not in combat and from stealth. So we have 2 cc's in most cases like most other classes.

 

I would recommend you try playing operative, if it's as broken as you suggest you can show all the other operatives in the game what they're doing wrong.

 

Concealment is not over performing in any game mode outside of unofficial duelling tournaments, which aren't a game mode.

 

I agree with you in theory that concealments roll needed to be nerfed to a degree.

 

I'm keen to hear why roll needs to be nerfed. If you can explain to me what game mode operatives are over performing in as a result of roll?

[Iymurra]

I'm keen to hear why roll needs to be nerfed. If you can explain to me what game mode operatives are over performing in as a result of roll?

 

Oh, simple really.

I'm sooo very tired of Operatives having to spend GCDs on defensive abilities. Nerfing roll creates an opening for operatives to gain oGCD defensive abilities that are not omniboost.

 

Game-mode wise we're fine.

Reality wise too much of our defensive capabilities have been shuffled onto roll for too many years now. I'd like to receive some of the stupidly absurd abilities some of the other classes have been receiving over the past years. i.e. Responsive Safeguards... etc.

[Cherepk]

I agree with roll nerf the way its done is bad thing. Maybe leave second roll but remove any damage absorption from a second one ?

Operatives are quite squishy, roll is main ability where i can kite people and get to people. So if roll is nerfed the way it is, then we need more damage.

 

Bioware please listen to Snave, he's actually pretty god on operative and know what he is saying when ti comes to operatives.

 

P.S. I don't get how snipers get 4 rolls and teleport....... and they are on pair with mara/mercs whent it come to the performance in PVP, and now they get all of that and operatives roll is nerfed...... Doesn't make any sense.

Sniper litterly will be GOD even more broken then pre-nerf mercs.

Edited August 5, 2019 by Cherepk

[snave]

Oh, simple really.

I'm sooo very tired of Operatives having to spend GCDs on defensive abilities. Nerfing roll creates an opening for operatives to gain oGCD defensive abilities that are not omniboost.

 

Game-mode wise we're fine.

Reality wise too much of our defensive capabilities have been shuffled onto roll for too many years now. I'd like to receive some of the stupidly absurd abilities some of the other classes have been receiving over the past years. i.e. Responsive Safeguards... etc.

 

That's actually pretty reasonable. Only problem is we aren't getting any new dcds other than the stim boost reset which will not let us stand and dps like other classes.

 

Operatives are actually well balanced in pvp and I'm not eager to have them as the next fotm, I just want everyone to realise just how massive a nerf this is to operatives. Its especially harsh when we don't get more damage or a suitable dcd replacement, we literally just half the rolls and likely double the deaths 😂

[Iymurra]

we literally just half the rolls and likely double the deaths 😂

 

But if thats the price we need to pay to shift to a non-gcd-defensive playstyle, thats a price I'm willing to pay. Even if the payoff comes half a year or more down the line.

Edited August 5, 2019 by Iymurra

[snave]

But if thats the price we need to pay to shift to a non-gcd-defensive playstyle, thats a price I'm willing to pay. Even if the payoff comes half a year or more down the line.

 

Maybe this might blow your mind, but it's possible to make the changes you want AND not ruin the class until it's fixed.

 

Simply change the roll system back to how it was, or keep the new system and reduce the CD to 6 seconds. Then when you have a working solution to the roll problem, change it back to the PTS version.

 

Mind explosion.

[Iymurra]

Maybe this might blow your mind, but it's possible to make the changes you want AND not ruin the class until it's fixed.

 

Simply change the roll system back to how it was, or keep the new system and reduce the CD to 6 seconds. Then when you have a working solution to the roll problem, change it back to the PTS version.

 

Mind explosion.

 

If the devs are willing to make that change, I'd love it.

I just have extremely low faith in anything good being done to our beloved class at this point. Pessimism has won out over the years.

[Mubrak]

Operatives are actually well balanced in pvp and I'm not eager to have them as the next fotm, I just want everyone to realise just how massive a nerf this is to operatives. Its especially harsh when we don't get more damage or a suitable dcd replacement, we literally just half the rolls and likely double the deaths 😂

 

Are "operatives" actually well balanced, tho? The nerf mainly hits concealment, because it doubles the cooldown of a dcd medicine and lethality don't even have. Sure, all disciplines lose mobility, but what everyone is raging about is the annoying operatives rolling around ignoring all damage. A nerf to concealment's roll dcd may open the way for a defense buff that is not as irritating and benefits all disciplines (looking at you, shield probe, you used to be, well... not quite as useless).

 

Simply change the roll system back to how it was, or keep the new system and reduce the CD to 6 seconds. Then when you have a working solution to the roll problem, change it back to the PTS version.

 

Mind explosion.

 

True.

Edited August 5, 2019 by Mubrak

[snave]

Are "operatives" actually well balanced, tho? The nerf mainly hits concealment, because it doubles the cooldown of a dcd medicine and lethality don't even have. Sure, all disciplines lose mobility, but what everyone is raging about is the annoying operatives rolling around ignoring all damage. A nerf to concealment's roll dcd may open the way for a defense buff that is not as irritating and benefits all disciplines (looking at you, shield probe, you used to be, well... not quite as useless).

 

 

 

True.

 

So first off, and I'm going to type this in caps so people actually understand it. WE ARE NOT GETTING A DEFENSIVE BUFF. RESET ON STIM BOOST IS NO WHERE NEAR ENOUGH.

 

Lethality operatives will die faster than concealment with one roll. They will not be able to escape.

 

I have no idea what class or specs you are all playing or at what level, but this nerf is on par with the 1.2 nerf for operatives and it's honestly insane how many people who think roll is overpowered because they're stupid are chiming in.

 

WE ARE NOT GETTING A DEFENSIVE BUFF.

[Iymurra]

But Snave, I want a defensive buff.

Can I have one?

[snave]

But Snave, I want a defensive buff.

Can I have one?

 

No. No, you cannot.

[Iymurra]

I'm sad.

 

Returning to Operative feedback though: Set Bonuses.

Debilitator is good for PvP, does not impact PvE content... like... at all. We'll sacrifice this one to the PvP gods and move on.

Healing Haze is apparently equitable healing to Kolto Waves for healers, will not impact Operative DPS. Healers get a cool toy.

Tactician is... nice to have the 1% back for keeping at least one stack of TA. Gives a little more leeway on burst windows, smooths rotations out a bit if you screw something up. Does not otherwise significantly impact DPS. It's... okay? Kinda fun sometimes? But not something which is going to see significant use.

The AoE one is good for AoE. As it is supposed to be.

 

Set Bonii wise, nothing class specific impacts our DPS as much as using the Berserker set. Is this intended? Where are the good old: "reduce energy cost of Shiv by 5" type of bonii which increases sustained damage by allowing for higher damage/higher cost abilities to be used rotationally or semi-rotationally?

Or just the flat out: "Your class is amazing, feel awesome and do more damage" type of set bonuses?

 

Currently we can only mix and match the 2 piece with another 4 piece. Or have a 6 piece. And currently no set bonus makes switching from Berserker for a class specific set worthwhile.

 

I think that should change, personally.