JediMasterAlex Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 (edited) Hate to point out the obvious, but the reason they are focused first is because they are the best at off-guard with no escape (other than pt/vg). If a good jugg is not focused and he does not off-guard, then hate to say it but in like 98% of those cases it would be a mistake on the jugg's part. It's quite silly to say "juggs are the best at offguard" when they don't ever offguard. That is living in a fantasy land, not reality. The reason juggs don't offguard, which yes, is obvious to everyone, isn't relevant when disputing that statement. If the only reason i got top 5 in solo ranked in each of the 4 seasons i made that my goal as a dps shadow was by off-guarding, Why were most of the others not able to do the same? I mean, it was super easy to do right? It is pretty easy to do. Most sins don't realize how powerful a tool it is. There are plenty that queue that literally never use it because they're ignorant, not necessarily bad. And it remains laughable that you only got those results when it was conveniently your "goal" and yet magically when it was apparently no longer your goal, you can't do it anymore. I'm sorry, but im in the mood to defend higher quality pvp for this game. If people want to listen to someone who has no experience in the highest lvl of pvp in this game at any point in its history, that will be their choice. Anything that he or anyone else says that i consider bad advice, i'll continue to point it out and explain why. Zurules has played a handful of matches in the past two seasons. And in those handful, he was mediocre. His success in the distant past was mainly due to offguarding as a sin, so he obviously takes this topic quite personally. Edited July 9, 2019 by JediMasterAlex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RACATW Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 It confuses me how people think taking 50% extra damage as a dps is some magical ability of extreme and unrelenting power. If it was dps juggs would be meta. Btw dps jugg isnt meta. Think about it this way, the target will take 150% damage when only one person directly attacks him while another is attacking the person being guarded. That means he uses his dcds at a rate of 1.5 times faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissingaiur Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 I guarantee you that I play more solo ranked than anyone you talk to about pvp. And I probably maintain a higher rating than the vast majority of them as well. I know much better than you what happens in solo ranked matches. (Note that I'm not claiming to be an amazing player, but I've played hundreds and hundreds of solo ranked matches at a high rating this season alone). Guard by dps is indeed very strong, but it doesn't happen in the majority of games. That is a fact. It certainly can be a huge factor if it is being used. i dont need you giving me your street cred. all i care about is what your "street cred" experience has taught you. if you played "high level matches" and do not understand the impact of guard in solo ranked matches that's pretty much all i need to know about your experiences in solo ranked. it doesn't really take a high level of game understanding to know how multiple people in a team having guard can heavily shift who wins or loses. solo ranked is designed around a meta that is a simple pure dps race to down one person. if multiple people are transferring 50% damage between each other, that is an extreme advantage for one side or the other. because instead of that 3 man tunnel going into 1 person its being spread though multiple players. that isn't rocket science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxmob Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 (edited) Hate to point out the obvious, but the reason they are focused first is because they are the best at off-guard with no escape (other than pt/vg). I don't mean to butt-in on the forum pvp between you two, but this is a silly statement. only 3 ACs are capable of off-guarding (i.e., dps specs with guard capabilities), and you just out of hand eliminated one (VG/PT). so all you're doing is comparing jugg vs. sin, and then you out of hand eliminated sins because they have an escape. so you've created a category of one. they aren't "the best off guard with no escape" in your schema. they're the only one. edit: most off guards on SF come from juggs. some off guards come at opportune times from sins. it's not most of either spec. but if you yolo for a week, you'll know who it is that will off guard out of hand and who will do it at opportune times. personally, I think only tanks should have guard. but w/e. I'm tired of making the argument. we diagree. the other stuff above, however, is kinda funny and worth posting. Edited July 9, 2019 by foxmob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KendraP Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 I don't mean to butt-in on the forum pvp between you two, but this is a silly statement. only 3 ACs are capable of off-guarding (i.e., dps specs with guard capabilities), and you just out of hand eliminated one (VG/PT). so all you're doing is comparing jugg vs. sin, and then you out of hand eliminated sins because they have an escape. so you've created a category of one. they aren't "the best off guard with no escape" in your schema. they're the only one. edit: most off guards on SF come from juggs. some off guards come at opportune times from sins. it's not most of either spec. but if you yolo for a week, you'll know who it is that will off guard out of hand and who will do it at opportune times. personally, I think only tanks should have guard. but w/e. I'm tired of making the argument. we diagree. the other stuff above, however, is kinda funny and worth posting. Much as it pains me to do this, I believe he was getting at VGs being a worse guard with no escape, implying 6hat guardians would be focused above PTs because they are better at guarding. Again not giving my opinion. Just stating what I believe to be his. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxmob Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 hmm. this grammar mish mash will not stand. not on my internets! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediMasterAlex Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 (edited) i dont need you giving me your street cred. all i care about is what your "street cred" experience has taught you. if you played "high level matches" and do not understand the impact of guard in solo ranked matches that's pretty much all i need to know about your experiences in solo ranked. it doesn't really take a high level of game understanding to know how multiple people in a team having guard can heavily shift who wins or loses. solo ranked is designed around a meta that is a simple pure dps race to down one person. if multiple people are transferring 50% damage between each other, that is an extreme advantage for one side or the other. because instead of that 3 man tunnel going into 1 person its being spread though multiple players. that isn't rocket science. Have you actually read my posts? I have agreed since the beginning of the thread, and in several other threads before this one, that dps using guard should be changed. It is too powerful, mostly for the reasons you stated. I was simply pointing out the reality that it isn't single-handedly ruining solo ranked because it isn't used all that often. I think it's important when discussing issues like this to frame the issues accurately without being hyperbolic. edit: most off guards on SF come from juggs. That is just a lie. Show us some screenshots. I've seen dozens and dozens of sins offguarding. While not in a majority of matches, it happens on a semi-regular basis. I know about all the juggs that regularly queue solos on SF. None of them offguard. I can count on one hand the amount of juggs I've seen offguarding. The only charitable explanation I can provide here is that perhaps your teams don't choose to focus juggs first, leading to more offguarding. If that's the case, that's an l2p issue. Edited July 9, 2019 by JediMasterAlex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxmob Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 That is just a lie. wow. F. U. 2. buddy. Show us some screenshots. ok. right. I'll just pull out my gallery of screenshots. you're *********** mental. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediMasterAlex Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 ok. right. I'll just pull out my gallery of screenshots. you're *********** mental. Next time you're in solos on SF and you see a jugg offguard, take a screenshot and post it in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KendraP Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 Next time you're in solos on SF and you see a jugg offguard, take a screenshot and post it in this thread. I mean I was a guardian who posted a screenshot of a solo match where I off guarded a little bit, until I had to pull the guard or die. https://m.imgur.com/a/yAhVzD5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxmob Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 syria was swapping guard on a sniper and jugg. my ss of it is obscured by the two sniper defense shells and explosiion fx, but I'm sure you can pull it off killswelltv's stream if you know how and can be bothered to do all this crap just to prove to some tough guy on the forum that you don't...you know....lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediMasterAlex Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 (edited) syria was swapping guard on a sniper and jugg. my ss of it is obscured by the two sniper defense shells and explosiion fx, but I'm sure you can pull it off killswelltv's stream if you know how and can be bothered to do all this crap just to prove to some tough guy on the forum that you don't...you know....lie. I can believe it happened one time. And maybe lie was the wrong word, more like you simply stated a falsehood. Sins offguard much, much more frequently than juggs, like 100:1 ratio. If you see juggs guarding more than that, it's only because you're not focusing them, which you should be. Also, why were you not focusing impale? He's awful, and he recently got permabanned on his main account for being racist all the time. I mean I was a guardian who posted a screenshot of a solo match where I off guarded a little bit, until I had to pull the guard or die. https://m.imgur.com/a/yAhVzD5 Are you sure that's a ranked screenshot? Where's the rating in the top right of the scoreboard? Edited July 10, 2019 by JediMasterAlex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zurules Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 Much as it pains me to do this, I believe he was getting at VGs being a worse guard with no escape, implying 6hat guardians would be focused above PTs because they are better at guarding. Again not giving my opinion. Just stating what I believe to be his. You are correct and understood my point perfectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zurules Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 (edited) it doesn't really take a high level of game understanding to know how multiple people in a team having guard can heavily shift who wins or loses. It is refreshing to see someone else notice that alex doesn't understand some of the very basics of pvp in this game despite being the most active pvper at what he calls "high" lvl pvp. Edited July 10, 2019 by Zurules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxmob Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 I can believe it happened one time. And maybe lie was the wrong word, more like you simply stated a falsehood. Sins offguard much, much more frequently than juggs, like 100:1 ratio. If you see juggs guarding more than that, it's only because you're not focusing them, which you should be. Also, why were you not focusing impale? He's awful, and he recently got permabanned on his main account for being racist all the time. Are you sure that's a ranked screenshot? Where's the rating in the top right of the scoreboard? kills was guarding in another square. I think it was on mocte, but I can't remember. not a single sin off guard all night in my matches. I know trapsy will throw one out situationally. the two juggs I saw tonight did it from the start of the round. that's exactly the way I described ti happening. when a sin guards, he does it situationally. I will more often see a jugg guard at the start of the round, and it's often a round after a loss. there was one fool shadow who landed in a trinity match (he was the other dps) and he kept guard swapping so our tank couldn't. I mean...if you want to count that as a sin guarding, I saw two in two nights. I do have that video. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxmob Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 You are correct and understood my point perfectly. erm. yeah. I got it after he interpreted. mah bad. I had a good laugh at you and then was like...crap. /delete post? meh. I've done worse! kek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediMasterAlex Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 (edited) It is refreshing to see someone else notice that alex doesn't understand some of the very basics of pvp in this game despite being the most active pvper at what he calls "high" lvl pvp. Um. You realize that she and I agree that dps shouldn't be able to guard right (or at least that it should have reduced effectiveness when dps do it)? And that both of us oppose your position on this topic? Both you and Hottie seriously need to work on your reading comprehension skills lol. Edited July 10, 2019 by JediMasterAlex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediMasterAlex Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 (edited) kills was guarding in another square. I think it was on mocte, but I can't remember. not a single sin off guard all night in my matches. I know trapsy will throw one out situationally. the two juggs I saw tonight did it from the start of the round. that's exactly the way I described ti happening. when a sin guards, he does it situationally. I will more often see a jugg guard at the start of the round, and it's often a round after a loss. there was one fool shadow who landed in a trinity match (he was the other dps) and he kept guard swapping so our tank couldn't. I mean...if you want to count that as a sin guarding, I saw two in two nights. I do have that video. If a jugg is guarding from the start of the round, that is not offguarding, that is just stupidity. There would be 0 protection done, because you just tunnel the jugg first, as you should anyway. It only qualifies as offguarding if they actually guard a target that people are focusing. In case you want to dispute that definition, would you call it offhealing if the dps was just healing people at full health that were freecasting? Also, why are you not targeting juggs first? Kind of blows my mind. And there are a lot of sins that will offguard when it's appropriate. I can pm you names if you want, because this forum has weird rules about naming people. Edited July 10, 2019 by JediMasterAlex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxmob Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 If a jugg is guarding from the start of the round, that is not offguarding, that is just stupidity. There would be 0 protection done, because you just tunnel the jugg first, as you should anyway. It only qualifies as offguarding if they actually guard a target that people are focusing. In case you want to dispute that definition, would you call it offhealing if the dps was just healing people at full health that were freecasting? Also, why are you not targeting juggs first? Kind of blows my mind. And there are a lot of sins that will offguard when it's appropriate. I can pm you names if you want, because this forum has weird rules about naming people. I never disputed that sins would toss out a guard. I also don't see gimp guards most of the time. However, when I see them on our beloved SF, it's a jugg more often than a sin in the past 3 weeks. we're done here. there's really nothing else I can say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissingaiur Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 (edited) Um. You realize that she and I agree that dps shouldn't be able to guard right (or at least that it should have reduced effectiveness when dps do it)? And that both of us oppose your position on this topic? Both you and Hottie seriously need to work on your reading comprehension skills lol. Alex, the last post you wrote to me was 70% of you jerking yourself off. no offense, ignore majority of the content in your posts because it's so lacking of evidence i have to pick and choose what i want to address. i don't care if you played x amount of matches or that one guy in the back who also agrees with you, i care about facts. i watch and play majority more on eu and in eu almost everyone off guards as dps because you get yelled at if you don't. so yeah off guarding in above average games does happen a lot, regardless of your personal impressions. if people know how to play the likelihood they will off guard is high, if everyone is off guarding it is a problem. having a blanket statement that it doesn't happen often is completely irrelevant. Edited July 10, 2019 by kissingaiur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediMasterAlex Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 (edited) Alex, the last post you wrote to me was 70% of you jerking yourself off. no offense, ignore majority of the content in your posts because it's so lacking of evidence i have to pick and choose what i want to address. In other words, you're too lazy to actually read forum posts that you respond to. It makes many of your posts fairly worthless to be honest. i don't care if you played x amount of matches or that one guy in the back who also agrees with you, i care about facts. i watch and play majority more on eu and in eu almost everyone off guards as dps because you get yelled at if you don't. so yeah off guarding in above average games does happen a lot, regardless of your personal impressions. if people know how to play the likelihood they will off guard is high, if everyone is off guarding it is a problem. having a blanket statement that it doesn't happen often is completely irrelevant. You have it completely backwards. I'm telling you the actual facts, because I actually play in these games, far more than you or anyone you know, and most likely at a higher rating. You are just offering opinions about what you think happens based on what? A handful of games, if any? Or just what someone else told you? I'm telling you what actually happens. You shouldn't be posting on the forums with bad information, it only confuses the issues and prevents productive discussion. Honestly, the more you post, the more it really shows that you either don't actually play solo ranked yourself, or barely do, the same problem Zurules has. Unless EU servers have a disproportionately larger number of people offguarding, which is possible but I doubt it, you are simply wrong. Reminder: I still agree with the underlying premise that offguarding by dps should be nerfed/removed. Edited July 10, 2019 by JediMasterAlex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissingaiur Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 (edited) In other words, you're too lazy to actually read forum posts that you respond to. It makes many of your posts fairly worthless to be honest. it has little to do with laziness and everything to do with how much time investment i want to spend on someone to educate them. i pick and choose what is the most important part to address and reply to it. You have it completely backwards. I'm telling you the actual facts, because I actually play in these games, far more than you or anyone you know, and most likely at a higher rating. this statement is meaningless and as i told you: i dont care. give me evidence and facts. the things you gained from your solo ranked experienced seem to be bias and i dont think you really pay attention to what is actually going on. that is just a personal opinion based on the countless statements i have seen on multiple topics. You are just offering opinions about what you think happens based on what? A handful of games, if any? Or just what someone else told you? I'm telling you what actually happens. You shouldn't be posting on the forums with bad information, it only confuses the issues and prevents productive discussion. Honestly, the more you post, the more it really shows that you either don't actually play solo ranked yourself, or barely do, the same problem Zurules has. just cuz i dont go around jerking myself off from my experience doesn't mean i dont know what i am talking about. i have been playing solo ranked for a very long time. i have been playing group ranked a very long time. i have the luxury of knowing many experienced ranked players who i converse with constantly about the game. if you think what i post is bad information then you are more lost than you realize. Unless EU servers have a disproportionately larger number of people offguarding, which I doubt, you are simply wrong. eu has on average better players than NA who actually use all the tools in their kit. Edited July 10, 2019 by kissingaiur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediMasterAlex Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 (edited) it has little to do with laziness and everything to do with how much time investment i want to spend on someone to educate them. i pick and choose what is the most important part to address and reply to it. That has nothing to do with simply reading and comprehending the entire posts. this statement is meaningless and as i told you: i dont care. give me evidence and facts. the things you gained from your solo ranked experienced seem to be bias and i dont think you really pay attention to what is actually going on. that is just a personal opinion based on the countless statements i have seen on multiple topics. Eyewitness testimony is evidence. You are merely offering hearsay. just cuz i dont go around jerking myself off from my experience doesn't mean i dont know what i am talking about. i have been playing solo ranked for a very long time. i have been playing group ranked a very long time. When was the last time you played solo ranked? How frequently do you queue? If you're going to make statements about what is happening in solo ranked, you have no credibility if you aren't even playing solo ranked. i have the luxury of knowing many experienced ranked players who i converse with constantly about the game. if you think what i post is bad information then you are more lost than you realize. This part has amused me when you've stated it several times. I play more solo ranked, and likely at a higher rating, than anyone you talk to about ranked. That's not jerking myself off, those are actual facts. I'm not claiming to be an all-knowing amazing player. You are regularly posting things about solo ranked that are simply untrue. Your sources are misleading you. You don't know nearly as much about this game as you think you do. You should reflect and realize that it's okay to admit what you don't actually know. Humility is a virtue. eu has on average better players than NA who actually use all the tools in their kit. Debatable. But having never played on EU servers, I can't actually dispute it. However, as I said before, I highly doubt that it's the case. Players are pretty much the same everywhere. Edited July 10, 2019 by JediMasterAlex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KendraP Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 Why is it every thread that winds up talking primarily about ranked winds up being the same 3 or 4 people taking stabs at each other? Seriously, focus guys. Guard on dps specs or who has better skills? What are we discussing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediMasterAlex Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 (edited) Why is it every thread that winds up talking primarily about ranked winds up being the same 3 or 4 people taking stabs at each other? Seriously, focus guys. Guard on dps specs or who has better skills? What are we discussing? The saddest part is that Hottie and I agree on the underlying issue! We are simply disagreeing on the severity of the problem. Offguarding is used sometimes by good players. It isn't happening in the majority of matches on Star Forge, so it isn't ruining solo ranked. But it should still be changed, because when it is used, it's disproportionately powerful based on its ease of use. Also, I've never claimed to have better skills than anyone on this forum, only significantly more solo ranked experience in the past two seasons. Edited July 10, 2019 by JediMasterAlex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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