Huttball, quesh, vandin, odessen, huttball, quesh, civil war, odessen, vandin

[RACATW]

/5char Edited April 14, 2019 by RACATW

[TrixxieTriss]

I feel your pain

[alexzk]

Lies...mine are usually like

 

Yavin, CW,CW,Yavin ... daily done

VS,VS,VS,Yavin, relog, CW, Yavin,VS ...daily done

 

It is rare to see only huttballs.

 

I see it maybe once a week. So overall it is true random. Go random.org and click button there, you will see how bad you imagine what random is.

 

P.S. You should see different WZs with no repeats ONLY IF there are many players and they run like 5-10 at once, then all those players will see WZ changing. IF 1-2 WZs at once - it will be many "repeats" (assuming everything has 1 random source, which is usually true for computers).

Edited April 15, 2019 by alexzk

[TrixxieTriss]

Lies...mine are usually like

 

Yavin, CW,CW,Yavin ... daily done

VS,VS,VS,Yavin, relog, CW, Yavin,VS ...daily done

 

It is rare to see only huttballs.

 

I see it maybe once a week. So overall it is true random. Go random.org and click button there, you will see how bad you imagine what random is.

 

I would love to get pops like yours and I have to question your own perception because Hutt Ball makes up 1/3 of map types. It’s highly unlikely you would get no Hutt balls out off 11 matches.

[alexzk]

I would love to get pops like yours and I have to question your own perception because Hutt Ball makes up 1/3 of map types. It’s highly unlikely you would get no Hutt balls out off 11 matches.

 

You're bad understanding what random (and probability) is. Chances are equal. So your conclusion is simply wrong for independent events. Nothing to discuss, your conclusion is just wrong mathematically.

 

Your "highly unlikely" could be applied to "system with memory" which is you but not random queue. I.e. next solution accounts some prev.

Edited April 15, 2019 by alexzk

[sharkfishman]

You're bad understanding what random (and probability) is. Chances are equal. So your conclusion is simply wrong for independent events. Nothing to discuss, your conclusion is just wrong mathematically.

 

Your "highly unlikely" could be applied to "system with memory" which is you but not random queue. I.e. next solution accounts some prev.

 

What are the odds that 1 pop will be huttball?

 

What are the odds that 1 pop out of 11 pops will huttball?

 

You know probabilities, so you should be able to answer that.

[TrixxieTriss]

What are the odds that 1 pop will be huttball?

 

What are the odds that 1 pop out of 11 pops will huttball?

 

You know probabilities, so you should be able to answer that.

 

Nah, he’d rather act superior and snarky because his experience is different to other people posting what they get the most.

[TrixxieTriss]

You're bad understanding what random (and probability) is. Chances are equal. So your conclusion is simply wrong for independent events. Nothing to discuss, your conclusion is just wrong mathematically.

 

Your "highly unlikely" could be applied to "system with memory" which is you but not random queue. I.e. next solution accounts some prev.

 

So you have a 1 in 3 chance every pop to get a Hutt Ball map. You queue 11 times and don’t get 1 Hutt Ball?

 

Even though every pop is random and individual, that means the chances are high you will get a HB map. 1 in 3 odds are pretty good “mathematically” to get a Hutt Ball.

 

What’s the probability of not getting a HB if you play 100 matches and there is a 1 in 3 chance that it will pop?

 

Most experiments with rolling dice will produce results of each number 1-3 coming up equally the large the sample.

 

If you don’t believe me, grab a 3 sided dice and roll it 100 times or better yet. Get a 3 sided dice and get 100 people to roll it once.

[alexzk]

https://www.random.org/integers/?num=100&min=1&max=11&col=5&base=10&format=html&rnd=new

 

Let's say 1-2-3 is huttball ... pay attention how many times others will repeat too, like 9-9-9 or so.

Sure 1-2-3 happens, but check how many another repeats as well.

 

My point is you just focus attention on 1-2-3 and blame system, while it do 6-6-6 as well.

Edited April 15, 2019 by alexzk

[TrixxieTriss]

https://www.random.org/integers/?num=100&min=1&max=11&col=5&base=10&format=html&rnd=new

 

Let's say 1-2-3 is huttball ... pay attention how many times others will repeat too, like 9-9-9 or so.

Sure 1-2-3 happens, but check how many another repeats as well.

 

My point is you just focus attention on 1-2-3 and blame system, while it do 6-6-6 as well.

 

Ok, similar experiment.

 

Get a 9 sided dice and mark 3 random spots on the dice the same to represent HB. Then roll the dice 100 times and see what happens.

 

And instead of linking websites to make a point. How about you explain it in detail so us simple people can understand.

 

It’s been a long time since I was in school, but I distinctly remember us doing practical experiments with multi sided dice and coin flips to demonstrate probability. The larger the sample, the more even the numbers became or close to the same with small variances.

 

Of course 11 matches isn’t 100 or 1000. Still, the probability for HB increases the more you play and over time you will end up with close to 1/3 of the pops being HB based.

 

Of course in your case you didn’t get any HBs, but I think you completely missed the point because your experience seems to be very different to the rest of us.

Edited April 15, 2019 by TrixxieTriss

[RACATW]

You're bad understanding what random (and probability) is. Chances are equal. So your conclusion is simply wrong for independent events. Nothing to discuss, your conclusion is just wrong mathematically.

 

Your "highly unlikely" could be applied to "system with memory" which is you but not random queue. I.e. next solution accounts some prev.

 

You're wrong computer sciencely because you have a bad understanding of RNG, it's not random, it's pseudo random (I.E. deterministic random bit generation). As for mathematically, to quote John von Neumann, anyone who considers arithmetical methods of producing random digits is, of course, in a state of sin.

 

Also 3 huttball maps.

Edited April 15, 2019 by RACATW

[Banderal]

You are all wrong, and obviously liars, because MY experience goes like this...

 

day 1

arena, vandin - atl-tab out and quit swtor while the load screen is still showing

 

day 2

deathmatch-ball, VS - close swtor while 15 other people deathmatch under the attacker spawn point

 

See, you only ever get 2 games. There's no way you are getting 3 huttball.

 

[TrixxieTriss]

You are all wrong, and obviously liars, because MY experience goes like this...

 

day 1

arena, vandin - atl-tab out and quit swtor while the load screen is still showing

 

day 2

deathmatch-ball, VS - close swtor while 15 other people deathmatch under the attacker spawn point

 

See, you only ever get 2 games. There's no way you are getting 3 huttball.

 

 

LoL, so droll

[alexzk]

Right, 4 WZs, 3 + 1 on diff chars - all were VS (bugged)

Lets ban VS too ...why not ?

[sharkfishman]

Right, 4 WZs, 3 + 1 on diff chars - all were VS (bugged)

Lets ban VS too ...why not ?

 

Does VS have the same probability of appearing as one of the Huttballs?

[TrixxieTriss]

Does VS have the same probability of appearing as one of the Huttballs?

 

Yes, it does have the same probability as popping as any other map. Does it have the same probability as popping a Hutt Ball “type” map? No it doesn’t.

 

There is a 3/9 chance of getting a HB or a 1/9 chance of getting voidstar.

 

I did a small experiment over the course of a month, where I tracked each match pop I got. Combined Hutt Ball pops ended up being 38%. But individually they were similar in number to other map pops, except Vandin which still pops the most of every map.

 

Surprisingly, Void Star popped the second most of all maps. So there is precedence in saying VS pops more than other individual maps. The issue is when you combine “all the HBs” vs Void Star, combined HB maps will pop 3-4 times more often.

 

The problem people are having is they are getting a HB type map every other game. It’s just too much HB for most people. Especially when you consider all the technical problems that plague HB. ie, desync, roll and movement bugs.

Those technical problems make most HB matches unenjoyable and they are one of the main reasons people hate HB.

 

I think if they combined all the HBs into one type of map and when the queue RNG picks a HB, it then rolls again to pick which HB.

 

If that was set up like that, people would not be so upset because a HB type map and all other maps would then have a chance of popping 1 out of 7.

Edited April 16, 2019 by TrixxieTriss

[Banderal]

I still say they should implement the "spin the wheel" choice option to let us at least have some say in which WZ we get. As has been said many times in other threads, and I know some of you already know what I'm talking about and where it comes from (there's another MMO that does this where they actually have a little animated "spin the dial around a pie chart" thing to show which wz is chosen)...

 

AFTER the pop (so it doesn't affect pops rates at all), put up a choice board for which WZ and everyone has X seconds to pick. After the choices are made, it does a weighted random roll to decide which one we get. Adjust as needed to accommodate 4s vs. 8s. Sure, you may still get a huttball if you hate huttball, but at least you wouldn't get a huttball if everyone hated huttball.

[alexzk]

I still say they should implement the "spin the wheel" choice option to let us at least have some say in which WZ we get. As has been said many times in other threads, and I know some of you already know what I'm talking about and where it comes from (there's another MMO that does this where they actually have a little animated "spin the dial around a pie chart" thing to show which wz is chosen)...

 

AFTER the pop (so it doesn't affect pops rates at all), put up a choice board for which WZ and everyone has X seconds to pick. After the choices are made, it does a weighted random roll to decide which one we get. Adjust as needed to accommodate 4s vs. 8s. Sure, you may still get a huttball if you hate huttball, but at least you wouldn't get a huttball if everyone hated huttball.

 

Bad idea, try to select "Lost Island" FP which I love and see how long it will take to get it ...same will be with WZs. No chance for hard/not popular at all.

[sharkfishman]

Yes, it does have the same probability as popping as any other map. Does it have the same probability as popping a Hutt Ball “type” map? No it doesn’t.

 

There is a 3/9 chance of getting a HB or a 1/9 chance of getting voidstar.

 

I did a small experiment over the course of a month, where I tracked each match pop I got. Combined Hutt Ball pops ended up being 38%. But individually they were similar in number to other map pops, except Vandin which still pops the most of every map.

 

Surprisingly, Void Star popped the second most of all maps. So there is precedence in saying VS pops more than other individual maps. The issue is when you combine “all the HBs” vs Void Star, combined HB maps will pop 3-4 times more often.

 

The problem people are having is they are getting a HB type map every other game. It’s just too much HB for most people. Especially when you consider all the technical problems that plague HB. ie, desync, roll and movement bugs.

Those technical problems make most HB matches unenjoyable and they are one of the main reasons people hate HB.

 

I think if they combined all the HBs into one type of map and when the queue RNG picks a HB, it then rolls again to pick which HB.

 

If that was set up like that, people would not be so upset because a HB type map and all other maps would then have a chance of popping 1 out of 7.

 

Yes, I agree totally.

 

I love objectives, but HB is almost unplayable for me due to desync. How can you pass to someone who isn't where you see them? How can you slow a ball carrier you can't target, lol? So frustrating, and Vandin's design actually makes these even worse.

 

I dislike Quesh, but it's the only HB map where desync is at least somewhat manageable.

[alexzk]

Better count "arenas" ....

Today I made angry many ppl already, I guess - quit 5 arenas in raw! cant do pvp like 30 mins already >:

 

Right, got 1 HB on makeb think i'm done with pvp for today ...not to mention speed another team scoring, but got pushed by guardian from the ball spawn point to shield place stages ...it's at least 25% of map size! ... and guess what next? Somebody leaped on me too - maybe was him dunno, stealthed out.

Edited April 16, 2019 by alexzk

[Banderal]

Bad idea, try to select "Lost Island" FP which I love and see how long it will take to get it ...same will be with WZs. No chance for hard/not popular at all.

 

Not true. I think I didn't explain the mechanism very well.

 

Warzones pop just like they do now. Let's say it decides first if it's an 8v8 or a 4v4 - because it must, because it favors 8v8 if there are enough people in the queue and we only get 4v4 if the queue population is small enough for long enough.

 

So it decides to pop an 8s. Then you, and everyone else, get, along with your "accept" dialog, a list of all the 8v8 warzones. Voidstar, AGH, ACW, NC, huttball A, B and C, Yavin (plus whatever I missed). You can pick a wz or not, and then click to accept the pop.

 

Let's say that everyone except you hates Yavin and loves AHG, so you pick Yavin and everyone else picks AHG. So now it rolls the "weighted random" percentage. There is a 15/16 chance that the game will be AHG, and a 1/16 chance that it will be Yavin.

 

So, yes, the chances are a lot smaller that you'll get a Yavin, but it will never be "no chance" because there's always you there to pick it. If you really like a warzone that no one else likes, well... sorry, you like an unpopular warzone. Personally, I'd rather have a wz I like that I can't get very often, then have one I like and get "it's fair share" but no one wants to play it, and so they quit, quit, afk, deathmatch, troll, etc. Like huttball right now.

 

I guess I get it if people have different opinions, but they just have to understand that their opinions are obviously wrong.

[varietasplus]

So you have a 1 in 3 chance every pop to get a Hutt Ball map. You queue 11 times and don’t get 1 Hutt Ball?

 

Even though every pop is random and individual, that means the chances are high you will get a HB map. 1 in 3 odds are pretty good “mathematically” to get a Hutt Ball.

 

What’s the probability of not getting a HB if you play 100 matches and there is a 1 in 3 chance that it will pop?

 

Most experiments with rolling dice will produce results of each number 1-3 coming up equally the large the sample.

 

If you don’t believe me, grab a 3 sided dice and roll it 100 times or better yet. Get a 3 sided dice and get 100 people to roll it once.

 

Since you post a lot, I will help you out here.

The chance of not getting a single HB of any type in 100 matches is (6/9)^100.

 

Other than that, the mathematical basics you refer to are flawed for several reasons.

 

Let's take a 100 coin toss for example. None of the toss "remembers" what has been before. So there is a chance for 100 consequtive heads, for each toss is independent, therefore you should never bet your money on "it has to be tail now, there has been X heads so far").

 

Let's not drag expected value to this topic. The expected value of a 6-sided dice is 3,5. What does it tell you? Nothing important in this matter.

 

Also let's not drag here the law of large numbers, that is one of the most misinterpreted mathematical terms.

 

Still I would like to give some elaboration: first of all, you don't participate every warzone, because you are working/sleeping and there are parallel warzones running. So, even if in a 1.000.000.000 warzones theroretically you might see the desired balance, almost every player will have a very different scheme.

 

Furthermore, warzones are not independent variables for several other reasons. There is a matchmaking out there, that takes your role (tank, dps, healer) into account and tries to distribute those evenly in the queue, that alters the upcoming warzone for your toon. Also, it is rumored there is a hidden ELO for regular warzones, that also affects whether you are going to be picked into a given warzone or sent to an arena instead.

 

I have also posted it many times: there is no such thing in IT like real random number generators, only pseudo-random numbers. Any good programmer takes that into account when developing a software.

 

And on a final note: you should really give up forcing HB maps into a group of 3, because you are still in contradiction in terms of logic on this matter. HB is a map type, like domination is. Yavin, NC and CW are domination maps. Void Star is an assault type. AH and Odessen has created new categories. You can promote making groups based on types, but you can not make it one-sided. Either pack HB and domination maps both or pack none. Please stop repeating your personal desires, you do not get support on that, just piss of people. You have valuable posts in other topics, don't spoil those with this relentless repetition.

Edited April 16, 2019 by varietasplus

[TrixxieTriss]

Since you post a lot, I will help you out here.

The chance of not getting a single HB of any type in 100 matches is (6/9)^100.

 

Other than that, the mathematical basics you refer to are flawed for several reasons.

 

Let's take a 100 coin toss for example. None of the toss "remembers" what has been before. So there is a chance for 100 consequtive heads, for each toss is independent, therefore you should never bet your money on "it has to be tail now, there has been X heads so far").

 

Let's not drag expected value to this topic. The expected value of a 6-sided dice is 3,5. What does it tell you? Nothing important in this matter.

 

Also let's not drag here the law of large numbers, that is one of the most misinterpreted mathematical terms.

 

Still I would like to give some elaboration: first of all, you don't participate every warzone, because you are working/sleeping and there are parallel warzones running. So, even if in a 1.000.000.000 warzones theroretically you might see the desired balance, almost every player will have a very different scheme.

 

Furthermore, warzones are not independent variables for several other reasons. There is a matchmaking out there, that takes your role (tank, dps, healer) into account and tries to distribute those evenly in the queue, that alters the upcoming warzone for your toon. Also, it is rumored there is a hidden ELO for regular warzones, that also affects whether you are going to be picked into a given warzone or sent to an arena instead.

 

I have also posted it many times: there is no such thing in IT like real random number generators, only pseudo-random numbers. Any good programmer takes that into account when developing a software.

 

Yes, in theory what you are saying is correct. But that is not reality because the laws of probability kick in.

Let’s use the coin as an example.

Get a coin and toss it randomly 100 times and see how many times heads and tails come up.

While it is possible that 100 heads come up, it’s not like too. What you will probably find is it will be closer to a 50/50 split.

That is the difference between theory and reality. Maths can prove a hypothesis to fit most situations. But in practice, it doesn’t always happen like that in reality.

 

I agree Computer generated numbers are artificially, unless done with quantum computing. But right there, it allows Bioware to fix this problem by adjusting how the algorithm works.

 

The hidden ELO has nothing to do with what map is chosen. Although I admit it could unintentionally mess it up slightly and that is something that needs to be checked and fixed if it’s doing so.

IMO, this matchmaking system is borked up. I’ve also said that since it was introduced and as the population has declined, it’s become much more noticeable. But I digress because that’s not what this is about

 

And on a final note: you should really give up forcing HB maps into a group of 3, because you are still in contradiction in terms of logic on this matter. HB is a map type, like domination is. Yavin, NC and CW are domination maps. Void Star is an assault type. AH and Odessen has created new categories. You can promote making groups based on types, but you can not make it one-sided. Either pack HB and domination maps both or pack none. Please stop repeating your personal desires, you do not get support on that, just piss of people. You have valuable posts in other topics, don't spoil those with this relentless repetition.

 

I think you miss the point as to why I am doing that.

 

Hutt Ball type maps have the most technical bugs and problems of all the other maps combined. The desync is terrible because the system can’t adjust to the x/y/z coordinates properly. It also has trouble with gap closing abilities or speed abilities. There is also many bugs in the maps, ie Jugg leap in Quesh Ball. You have traps that don’t add damage or affects to certain classes. And lastly you have excessive lag compared to other maps. Which makes passing awkward.

 

If Hutt Ball didn’t have those problems, then it would be playable and more enjoyable. But while ever those problem are in those maps, then they shouldn’t pop at the same rate as the other maps. They should be counted as one map type.

 

Honestly, I’ve never understood why they added more HB maps when it was obvious the first one had a few of these problems early on, “I’m looking at you Operative roll”. Then they added Quesh and all of those problems got worse and were amplified. That should have been enough warning to not add anymore of them unless they were going to fix them first.

 

Adding Vandin was a massive mistake. Now we have 3 out of the 9 maps with massive problems and they can be game breaking. No one wants to play maps that don’t work.

 

But, let’s consider this. Hutt Ball is over represented as a map type. They should have maybe made another map type like Void Star or Hypergates or Odessen (which would have been a bad one) to start to balance out the map types.

 

As you say CW and Yavin are basically the same. NC isn’t the same, but could be classified as being an off shoot of the idea.

The way it is at the moment is like this :

3 x HB type map

2 x (3)Node capture and hold maps + 1 off shoot map

Then we have all unique type maps.

1 x Odessen

1x Void Star

1 x Hypergates

 

Hutt Ball is over represented and it shouldn’t be because it makes that map type pop more often than any other type of map.

If they were going to make another map, it should have been a map type from one of those last 3. NOT another HB. Seriously, some dev must have a serious hard-on for HB

Even before they added Yavin, HB was already over represented because there were two map. Before Yavin, NC and CW weren’t even considered to be the same type because they are unique.

But you can’t argue that HB and QB were the same type or map. So we already had HB over represented before Yavin. This was a problem for some people because of all the extra bugs that QB has. More and more People came to hate HB because of the bugs. These were people who didn’t mind the original HB. Many would still play the original, but would leave as soon as Quesh popped. This has led to an overwhelming hate for any HB by a large portion of the community.

 

It made zero sense for Bioware to add another HB and make it over represented, yet again. If we take CW/Yavin and possibly NC out of the equation. You have HB at 3-1 over the other maps. This should not be the case. Vandin should never have been made because of this. But it also should not have been made because HB style maps have massive technical problems that Bioware can not seem to fix. There was no logic behind making another HB except some dev(s) have a hard-on for HB.

 

I get that you like HB and are fighting tooth and nail for each map to be counted separately. But even you can’t deny the map type has problems and until they get fixed, they should not pop the most of every other “type” of map,

That is why I think they need to have their pops reduced and the only way I can see them doing this is to put them into a group.

 

I hope that explains my reasoning of why I “keep” putting them into a group to be counted as one and why I don’t do the same with CW and Yavin.

[TrixxieTriss]

Not true. I think I didn't explain the mechanism very well.

 

Warzones pop just like they do now. Let's say it decides first if it's an 8v8 or a 4v4 - because it must, because it favors 8v8 if there are enough people in the queue and we only get 4v4 if the queue population is small enough for long enough.

 

So it decides to pop an 8s. Then you, and everyone else, get, along with your "accept" dialog, a list of all the 8v8 warzones. Voidstar, AGH, ACW, NC, huttball A, B and C, Yavin (plus whatever I missed). You can pick a wz or not, and then click to accept the pop.

 

Let's say that everyone except you hates Yavin and loves AHG, so you pick Yavin and everyone else picks AHG. So now it rolls the "weighted random" percentage. There is a 15/16 chance that the game will be AHG, and a 1/16 chance that it will be Yavin.

 

So, yes, the chances are a lot smaller that you'll get a Yavin, but it will never be "no chance" because there's always you there to pick it. If you really like a warzone that no one else likes, well... sorry, you like an unpopular warzone. Personally, I'd rather have a wz I like that I can't get very often, then have one I like and get "it's fair share" but no one wants to play it, and so they quit, quit, afk, deathmatch, troll, etc. Like huttball right now.

 

I guess I get it if people have different opinions, but they just have to understand that their opinions are obviously wrong.

 

An easier solution is for the pop to tell you what the queue has chosen.

You can decide to either accept it or decline.

Then it puts the pop into a holding pattern till enough people accept the pop.

If it did this, it would be much easier for it to do the match making once everyone accepts.

 

If it takes too long to pop, it’s obvious that not enough people want to play that map.

Then after a period of time, it can either pop with a reduced number of players (must be balanced numbers Ie 7v7, 6v6, 5v5 or 4v4. There would be no back filling once it starts) Or it ends and people are put back into the queue like when a match ends early due to lack of numbers or people rage quitting. I would prefer the first option.

 

This reduces people quitting when a map pops they don’t want to play and helps the matchmaking work better because of it. You also allow a reduced number of players to still participate in playing a map some people wouldn’t pick under your method and you could still have balanced teams.

I would rather play an 8s map with people who want to be there, even if it turns out to be a 5v5 match. Than an 8s map where some people don’t care for the map and just want to death match or rage quit.

 

Not sure if I’ve ever mentioned it on the forums before. But I once played a CW as 1v1 because no one else accepted the pop. It was the funniest match I’ve ever played because both of us were objective players and we spent most of the match capping and running to the next node to cap. When we did meet to fight, we each had one node and were fighting over the 3rd. If it looked like I might die, I would move us away from that node so if I died, I could hopefully get back in time to stop them capping it or get to the other node to cap 2 before they could get back.

Both of us tried many tactics to try and get 2 nodes, even dying on purpose. LOL.

In the end, we called it a draw because it came down to one of us winning by 10 or 20 points. I can’t even remember who won. It was so funny, that we couldn’t stop laughing at the end.

[alexzk]

"If they were going to make another map, it should have been a map type from one of those last 3. NOT another HB. Seriously, some dev must have a serious hard-on for HB"

 

I returned to swtor after 5 years break because I was missing HB soo much... So yeh, supposed to be best map when bugs fixed.

 

HB is just unique, i saw many games during that years ...every map of swtor had more-less similar. However HB is still unique. And new one - Odessen. Gona like it as well - because unique.

Edited April 17, 2019 by alexzk