Ludonarrative Dissonance and the Dismantlement of the Iconic Class Identities

[Majspuffen]

Ludonarrative dissonance is a phrase that refers to when the gameplay contradicts the game narrative. SWTOR has and has always had a problem with this but a moderate amount can be combated through suspension of disbelief. But too much and it starts to grate at the experience, although what we consider "too much" is highly subjective. I don't think anyone is really bothered about 16 people flailing their lightsabers at one sorry individual, because it is something we're accustomed to in the MMORPG-genre even if it doesn't really feel like Star Wars. Nor do we really care that our characters have an infinite supply of grenades and missiles. However, with this post I want to make the case that the attempt at class balance has made the classes less distinct both mechanically and aesthetically.

 

Take the Sniper/Gunslinger. What comes to mind when we picture a sniper in a videogame? They ought to use a sniper rifle and they'll usually be found at a vantage point where they can shoot at enemies from a safe distance. The Sniper in SWTOR have the tools to do this, although their firing range is perhaps much shorter than we would have imagined, but a bit of suspension of disbelief will overrule this disparancy of the ideal and the fact. The sniper can utilize the cover mechanic which makes them immune to gap closing abilities, such as Force Charge, which means they do have the ability to fire from a safe distance (one might wonder why a Sith couldn't leap to a person sitting in a crouched position but the mechanical function serves to reinforce the aesthetic of the sniper). Many Warzones incorporate some form of vantage point that the sniper can utilize as well, such as Huttball having a ramp overlooking the open area where the objective is located. This gives the sniper free firing range on anyone entering the field of the objective. The class is slow and often stationary, but it is excellent at controlling zones. There's a coherency here between the gameplay mechanics and the aesthetic narrative.

 

However, as Bioware added more abilities to the game and classes got more gap closers, the Sniper needed something to compensate in order to (presumably) uphold the balance. So they were given the ability Covered Escape. This had an averse effect, in my opinion. Snipers are no longer just good at zone control, but they are also fairly good at capturing objectives and running with the ball in Huttball. This was always a side effect of the Cover ability as it actually did make snipers good for capturing objectives, but the key difference between modern and classic swtor is that they were slow to get there. And once there they were no longer in their safe zone. Nowadays they can roll to the door from a great distance, and should they find themselves in trouble they can simply roll back (as they can reset its cooldown). Being slow was actually a staple of the sniper class as it made positioning more tactical and with more severe consequences.

 

Which leads us to another slow class: the Operative/Scoundrel. In 1.x the Operative did not have any gap closer at all which was something people complained about a lot. Bioware caved in to the complaints and come 2.0 the Operative is suddenly the most mobile class in the game. At the time there was no CD on lolroll--er.. pardon me, I meant exfiltrate*. Nobody could get to an objective faster than the Operative, not even the supernatural Jedi and Sith. Now, I ask again: what comes to mind when we try to picture an Operative (or secret agent)? Some tropes might include cool gadgets, being sneaky/stealthy, intelligent, able to knock out targets silently... and classic SWTOR nailed this image fairly well (perhaps too well; being stunlocked to death gave rise to a meme that persists to this day). While Operatives did not have Force Speed like the other stealth class does, it did have access to Cover. This gave them incredibly unique and distinct utility. Like I mentioned above; Cover is an excellent tool for capturing objectives, and while the Operative was as slow as the Sniper they had the benefit of moving unseen. Coupled with powerful control tools such as Flashbang and Sleep Dart, the Operative was the ideal class for capturing objectives. Something I would argue for is a role that suits the class fantasy well.

 

Today there isn't too much of a difference between an Operative and an Assassin/Shadow. Operatives are certainly more powerful, especially in 1v1s, but their functionality within Warzones are largely the same as the Assassin. Operatives utility differ in that they can heal their team mates whereas Assassins can protect them with taunt abilities. The Operative lost the utility of Cover and gained, arguably, the best mobility in the game. But that was not all they lost. They've also lost other incredibly useful abilities such as Orbital Strike (for preventing objectives being captured) and Explosive Probe (strong ranged sudden burst), possibly because Bioware wanted to shape them into more of a melee class. The Operative was truly unique at launch; now they function more akin to the fantasy of the rogue archetype, a function Assassins had already been fulfilling since launch.

 

I get the sense that the aesthetic narrative is no longer of the same importance. Certain new abilities and utilities seems to have been introduced solely for their mechanical purposes. When Sith Juggernauts/Jedi Guardians gained the ability Saber Reflect I thought that was a great ability to introduce into the game and one that made a lot of sense. We see Jedi in the movies reflect blaster bolts all the time, it's a staple. However, now Operatives can specialize to have the best reflect in the game..? Mercenaries/Commandos also have access to a reflect ability. I do not see the aesthethic connection at all. This is a rather tiny complaint, but many a little makes a mickle. It is a shame, because this game stands on a legacy where class identity was strong and the animations were superb and easily immersed you into its fantasy. The iconic class fantasies that were designed to be traditional melee specializations gave rise to a new playstyle: that of the mid-range. It would have been strange for a Vanguard not to have any ranged abilities when their main weapon was a blaster rifle. The concept of mid-range is something that World of Warcraft has just begun to explore (Survival Hunters and Outlaw Rogues have mid-range aspects to their gameplay), but in swtor we see these mid-range classes being neutered in order to get them more into melee. This might be the sound design decision from a balancing perspective but it does have a negative effect on the aesthetic, and it generates more ludonarrative dissonance.

 

I doubt we'll ever see Cover returned and Exfiltrate removed from the Operative, as such a change would cause an uproar of dissatisfaction among the current playerbase. But should Bioware ever consider a radical rebalancing of the classes I would implore them to remember their roots. You had a unique thing going with your Cover system and rather than explore the possibilities you decided to completely remove it from a class to whom it was a key utility. Your mid-range playstyle is intriguing and unique; don't abandon it. When you create new abilities, make sure they fit the fantasy. Don't abandon the things that made SWTOR unique. It wasn't just the story. It was the design as well.

 

Thanks for reading!

[chrisforester]

Thanks OP for introducing me to the phrase "ludonarrative dissonance." That alone was worth the time to read the thread.

 

I notice you mainly focus on mechanics like range, shielding etc.

 

I basically agree that gameplay mechanics, especially perhaps as games go on and rebalancing occurs - have tended to increasingly outweigh narrative issues in SWTOR. Maybe there is some inevitability here in PvP.....you mention shielding for example....if because of narrative only Jedi/Sith could reflect attacks then this was seen as making the class stand out too much....but the solution of adding it to more classes does seem somehow ridiculous from a narrative perspective.

 

I'm not so sure about how crucial an issue things like range or range closers are....maybe because I guess SWTOR seems to be based on having a force and non force version of most abilities anyway in order to function? Force Leap vs Rocket Leap (or whatever its called), cryogrenade v force choke etc. Cosmetic changes to ensure class balance. For me personally there isn't much narrative issue in range issues or range closers. So is ludonarrative dissonance subjective? And does it depend for example on whether you like to RP or otherwise character immerse vs don't care?

 

And occasionally (but only occasionally) it seems to me that the Devs actually went with the narrative side - e.g. sniper replacing the knife based stun with the 10m shot based maim? But probably an exception that proves the rule.

 

For me personally there are some more fundamental dissonances which have always bugged me in SWTOR:

 

1. Dark side appearance on non force wielding characters. If Anakin Skywalker goes to the dark side and massacres the Jedi children, he emerges with the glowing orange eyes of someone who's gone to the dark side. If my bounty hunter kills some innocents, I'm just a bad person, not "dark side."

 

2. Playing a light side sorc for example, but all my abilities look dark side (lightning or the black smoke type effects.) It would have been great if a dark side Jedi Sage ended up shooting lightning and a light side sorc healer's heals actually look benevolent.

 

3. The Eternal Throne story arc has required a huge suspension of disbelief (to me) to have my cheeky smuggler be told by the Sith Emperor that of all the people in the universe I'm the most important blah blah. I can take that on my sorc or Jedi Knight, not otherwise.

 

4. Scoundrels punching people.

 

Do these examples also count as ludonarrative dissonance?

[Ardrossan]

1. Dark side appearance on non force wielding characters. If Anakin Skywalker goes to the dark side and massacres the Jedi children, he emerges with the glowing orange eyes of someone who's gone to the dark side. If my bounty hunter kills some innocents, I'm just a bad person, not "dark side."

 

2. Playing a light side sorc for example, but all my abilities look dark side (lightning or the black smoke type effects.) It would have been great if a dark side Jedi Sage ended up shooting lightning and a light side sorc healer's heals actually look benevolent.

 

3. The Eternal Throne story arc has required a huge suspension of disbelief (to me) to have my cheeky smuggler be told by the Sith Emperor that of all the people in the universe I'm the most important blah blah. I can take that on my sorc or Jedi Knight, not otherwise.

 

4. Scoundrels punching people.

 

1. I always saw this not as actual darkside effects, but how other people view the PC based on his actions. But yes, strictly speaking, it fits the category.

 

2. It may have been good for a DS sage to be able to use lightning, especially in a story mission. I think the way BW went with this is that these are learned techniques, so the reason LS Inqs continue to use DS healing is that they were trained to use DS healing. Technically from a lore standpoint there is no such thing as DS healing other than Sith alchemy, which is inherent - you either have it or you don't - and LS healing is more useful on other people than yourself.

 

3. I don't think this qualifies, actually. In every case, not just the NFUs, Valkorion is flattering your PC. His use of hosts and pawns in the past has been to mind-rape them; he doesn't bother trying to get them on his side. For some reason, he's unable to do that with your PC, and THAT is the ludonarrative dissonance, that somehow the PC is simply immune unlike almost everyone else in the galaxy.

 

4. I always just thought it was funny.

[VelvetSanity]

Punching people? My Smuggler prefers the Dirty Kick

[TrixxieTriss]

The biggest issues is nearly every class these days has a speed ability, self heal or an OP DCD.

Remember when Sorcs and Sins were speed demons? Not anymore, now every class has some way to move fast.

 

As they added more abilities and more stuns and more mez, they also kept adding more survivability and more speed.

Now it’s like speed wars vs stun wars.

 

Too many of the classes have lost their unique identity and every class seems to be melding with other classes distinctive abilities.

Edited January 10, 2019 by TrixxieTriss

[Majspuffen]

@chrisforester I'm happy to have shared the terminology! You are correct in saying that I mainly focused on PvP and mobility and defensive abilities. I wanted to be very clear about what I was talking about and provide relevant examples, but you are of course correct in saying that the ludonarrative dissonance in this game can be found in many other areas. As to your four questions! Adrossan already gave an answer to them and I largely agree with him, but I'll still provide my own answers.

1. Dark side appearance on non force wielding characters. If Anakin Skywalker goes to the dark side and massacres the Jedi children, he emerges with the glowing orange eyes of someone who's gone to the dark side. If my bounty hunter kills some innocents, I'm just a bad person, not "dark side."

 

I agree! The mechanic of the morality meter in this game has an effect on the narrative that suits the Jedi and Sith classes. Not the non-force users. You could make the argument that Atton and c.o. in Knights of the Old Republic 2 became corrupted but there was a stated lore reason for that. The Jedi Exile formed bonds easily with others and her influence affected her companions. Also, all of her companions (aside from the droids) can become Jedi so that suggests they were, in fact, force sensitive. So yes, I would say that the mechanic contradicts the aesthetic narrative.

2. Playing a light side sorc for example, but all my abilities look dark side (lightning or the black smoke type effects.) It would have been great if a dark side Jedi Sage ended up shooting lightning and a light side sorc healer's heals actually look benevolent.

 

Force Lightning is a dark side power and it is weird that one's kind-hearted Sith Sorcerer would opt to frazzle their enemies when they could be dispatched in a more humane manner. In Knights of the Old Republic, a light sided Jedi could use Force Lightning but at a penalty. There the morality meter did have an effect on the gameplay that made sense to the narrative. It would have been awesome to see animations change depending on your alignment, though it would require a lot of work from Bioware. But yes, I'd say this is ludonarrative dissonance!

 

3. The Eternal Throne story arc has required a huge suspension of disbelief (to me) to have my cheeky smuggler be told by the Sith Emperor that of all the people in the universe I'm the most important blah blah. I can take that on my sorc or Jedi Knight, not otherwise.

I fully agree. When Knights of the Fallen Empire came out I started the expansion by playing my Operative, but I had to stop around the time when you confront Arcann for the first time. I couldn't really handle it. So I decided to play my Guardian instead and finished the story with her first. I have played through the story with my Operative now but, like you, I had to rely on a lot of suspension of disbelief in order to do so. However, I wouldn't call this ludonarrative dissonance as much as just... narrative dissonance. What made the Agent story so powerful, in my opinion, was that you were a human navigating through a mire of deadly politics practiced by supernatural beings. When the story ended I was rather happy not being known across the galaxy as some kind of hero. The Eternal Throne Story arc is the complete opposite of that.

4. Scoundrels punching people.

Hah... I'm not 100% convinced if this is ludonarrative dissonance or not but it is stupid. I personally abhor the Scrapper and Concealment specializations for the Scoundrel and the Operative. To me they break the fantasy. Why run around punching/stabbing things when you have a blaster pistol/rifle?

 

Ludonarrative refers to when the gameplay mechanics, specifically, contradicts the narrative. There are a lot of things in the game that causes narrative dissonance. For instance, take a look at the new login loading screen since patch 5.10. The Jedi have blue, green and purple lightsabers and the Sith only have red lightsabers. We see this in the epic Betrayed cinematic trailer as well (minus the purple). This image is something we can all stand behind and say "yes! This looks awesome! I want to be a part of this!" but when we start playing the game we'll see that the majority of players aren't even using the most iconic lightsaber colours. They're using weird purple plasma sabers, lava sabers, black-core sabers etc. These Lightsaber colours, in my opinion, breaks the narrative. But the lightsabers are purely aesthetic (aside from the stat boost they provide but this boost is not affected by the colour) and as such, I wouldn't really call it ludonarrative dissonance. Just narrative dissonance. (Sorry for my long posts!)

Edited January 10, 2019 by Majspuffen

[Majspuffen]

The biggest issues is nearly every class these days has a speed ability, self heal or an OP DCD.

Remember when Sorcs and Sins were speed demons? Not anymore, now every class has some way to move fast.

 

As they added more abilities and more stuns and more mez, they also kept adding more survivability and more speed.

Now it’s like speed wars vs stun wars.

 

Too many of the classes have lost their unique identity and every class seems to be melding with other classes distinctive abilities.

 

Exactly! Homogenization and uniqueness contradict one another, but homogeneous classes are easier to balance. In my opinion, Operatives, Snipers and Powertechs were way more interesting back in classic SWTOR when instead of having absurd mobility and powerful defensive cooldowns, they had a mixed arsenal of ranged and melee attacks. Today, Juggernauts and Marauders have more powerful 30m ranged attacks than the Powertech does. It doesn't make sense and it makes these classes less fun to play. Because they are becoming more and more similar to the Force classes. They are becoming more and more similar to traditional MMORPG archetypes.

[phalczen]

Its not a pvp gameplay mechanic issue, but it is another example of Ludonarrative Dissonance: Agents and Troopers love to pull out their sidearm pistol all the time in cutscenes but they're always using a rifle in combat, because that's what they actually have equipped. It's a small thing, yeah, but sometimes the lack of polish in a product becomes significant as it accumulates over time.

[Ardrossan]

The biggest issues is nearly every class these days has a speed ability, self heal or an OP DCD.

Remember when Sorcs and Sins were speed demons? Not anymore, now every class has some way to move fast.

 

As they added more abilities and more stuns and more mez, they also kept adding more survivability and more speed.

Now it’s like speed wars vs stun wars.

 

Too many of the classes have lost their unique identity and every class seems to be melding with other classes distinctive abilities.

 

PVPers are the reason they went in that direction, so I find it...ironic that you're complaining about it now. For years it's been a tug of war between PVEers who wanted their old abilities back and PVPers who wanted x class to be their FOTM.

 

It's not quite that simple, of course. Raiders have also traditionally been whiny about it too [cf the recent thread about Sage TK not being OP enough]. One might almost come to the conclusion that not all feedback should be listened to, even if it's being said very loudly by certain clusters of forumites...

[Nightblazer]

That's the thing with how MMOs work.

 

PvEers vs PvPers

 

It's always a back and forth in an MMO and it's not just started wars. Look at WoW for example.

 

Honestly I don't read too much into it nor do I try to work about it.

 

I play both PvP and PvE and when you try to go this much into it I feel it just ruins it for you. Well thats my opinion anyway.

[TrixxieTriss]

Exactly! Homogenization and uniqueness contradict one another, but homogeneous classes are easier to balance. In my opinion, Operatives, Snipers and Powertechs were way more interesting back in classic SWTOR when instead of having absurd mobility and powerful defensive cooldowns, they had a mixed arsenal of ranged and melee attacks. Today, Juggernauts and Marauders have more powerful 30m ranged attacks than the Powertech does. It doesn't make sense and it makes these classes less fun to play. Because they are becoming more and more similar to the Force classes. They are becoming more and more similar to traditional MMORPG archetypes.

 

Don’t forget Sorcs. We had to actually learn to LoS properly and we were really the only class that had a speed boost to use most of the time. (And Sins)

There was also a big distinction between madness and lightning,. Madness would be more mobile and lighting spend a lot of time static because abilities couldn’t be used on the move as much (the change with mobility was needed though). They also mixed in too much reliance on dot damage for lightning Sorcs when madness was already the dot spec.

It really makes no sense to have dot damage as part of light Sorcs main rotation. I would love to see dots removed completely from the spec and have more burst added to make up for the damage. IMO, lighting spec should be Force equivalent to a sniper and the light sabre should definitely be a viable and dedicated “ability” (not utility choice that no one picks) to be used when close enough.

 

Remember when stealth had a black out ability that was required to give them better stealth in situations. There wasn’t this “permanent” black out they all have now. It was an ability that needed to be used and tactics involved in using it.

Now it’s so dumbed down that you can’t see a stealth standing on top of you and there is no skill or tactics involved to get in the first attack. It’s an Operatives “wet dream” to stun kill people to death and it takes no skill to get into position to do it.

I use to love using black out because it offered some dynamic to the stealth classes. Now it’s so dumbed down that Elma Fudd can sneak in and have their way with you or try and ninja. Where is the skill involved there?

 

The whole problem still comes back to stun/mez/root vs speed vs escape wars. The game has too much of this and now we have entered the DCD immunity era. Some classes are immune to nearly everything every 30secs or have way to many strong DCDs they can daisy chain till the immunity is back up. Good players know how to do this and other good players know how to negate it. But it’s boring and some fights are drawn out for no reason. We have too many stalemates for these reasons.

 

I’d love to see most of this culled back to the 2.1 era of abilities (with better balance so we don’t have Mara smash monkeys). The Devs think that every new expansion requires another ability to use. We now have ability bloating. Honestly, how many healing abilities does my lightning Sorc need? Or how many DCDs and utilities choices does my Mara need (I’m not a Jugg or.a tank).... etc.

We need an ability culling and less utilities to choose from in each bracket (many are never used). That would also make balancing easier for Bioware and add back distinct uniqueness to the classes.

Edited January 11, 2019 by TrixxieTriss

[TrixxieTriss]

PVPers are the reason they went in that direction, so I find it...ironic that you're complaining about it now. For years it's been a tug of war between PVEers who wanted their old abilities back and PVPers who wanted x class to be their FOTM.

 

It's not quite that simple, of course. Raiders have also traditionally been whiny about it too [cf the recent thread about Sage TK not being OP enough]. One might almost come to the conclusion that not all feedback should be listened to, even if it's being said very loudly by certain clusters of forumites...

 

I don’t disagre that pvp influenced the direction of stun vs speed vs DCD. But it’s not totally the pvp that causes the problems. It’s the way Bioware balance the classes. They’ve admitted themselves that they balance around damage.

That’s not how you balance a class for pvp. If you give a class too much dps out put and don’t take into account they have great DCDs or survivability, then that class becomes OP for pvp, but might be fine for pve.

If Bioware actually balanced both survivability/utility with dps output, we would run into most of those issues.

They also don’t listen to the player feed back on the real problems and often nerf or buff exactly the wrong thing and make the situation worse or pointless.

 

Look at Mercs for example. With 5.0 they got some great DCDs and survivability (some of which was needed), but they also had an increase in dps to accomodate the required amount of damage needed to clear pve bosses. This combination was a big problem for pvp because it made them nearly unkillable and able to dominate with dps. They were basically tanks doing major dps and they needed a nerf to be fixed.

 

Except Bioware didn’t listen or understand the feed back coming from the pvp community. Nobody had a problem with the dps. No one to my knowledge QQd about the damage at all. What was needed was a rework of the DCD situation, but Bioware being Bioware nerfed dps out put instead which affected pvers more than it affected pvpers. The nerf actually didn’t do anything to the Mercs OP/FOTM status because it was never about the dps to start with.

So Bioware essentially screwed over the pve community for absolutely no reason. Then pvpers get blamed for the changes because the pve community got shafted for no reason. When ALL OF IT WAS BIOWARES OWN DOING (angry at them, not you).

Pvers would have hardly noticed any changes to Merc DCDs because they usually have multiple healers and tanks to keep them alive in a raid. A nerf to the DCDs was the easiest and simplest solution

 

Essentially, Bioware have no *********** idea that their way of balancing is fundamentally flawed and we have had these problems since day one because they refuse to acknowledge its flawed. They were told for months and months last year not to balance around dps output alone. They were told to balance the DCDs first and then see if dps needed to be balanced. This is the institutional problem with Bioware, once they have a way of doing something or an idea, they will not back down or change it. That is why the game is in such a mess. They are arogent and don’t listen to player feed back.

 

Sorry for slight deviation off the topic.

 

What some games have done is add a spec or utility build for pvp that only works in pvp. This is something that Bioware could have done. They could also have balanced around specifc pvp gear that didn’t work outside of pvp and pve gear that didn’t work in pvp. This would have allowed them to adjust damage output for classes in dps and not affect pvers,

 

The whole thing of pvers or pvpers blaming each other for changes is old and not accurate. The blame falls squarely on Biowares shoulders. The players aren’t at fault for wanting Bioware to balance the classes properly. It’s not pvpers fault that Biowares processes are faulty.

Edited January 11, 2019 by TrixxieTriss

[TrixxieTriss]

Its not a pvp gameplay mechanic issue, but it is another example of Ludonarrative Dissonance: Agents and Troopers love to pull out their sidearm pistol all the time in cutscenes but they're always using a rifle in combat, because that's what they actually have equipped. It's a small thing, yeah, but sometimes the lack of polish in a product becomes significant as it accumulates over time.

 

Agreed.

[Majspuffen]

Remember when stealth had a black out ability that was required to give them better stealth in situations. There wasn’t this “permanent” black out they all have now. It was an ability that needed to be used and tactics involved in using it.

 

While I love the concept of stealth I have never been a fan of permanent stealth, however I did like swtor's system. Blackout was an excellent mechanic that gave some dynamic to the stealth gameplay, particularly in capture point pvp where the attacker would have the advantage if they had stealth or disadvantage if they did not. I would almost always find the defender in pvp in the past. These days it is near impossible. I did manage to find one stealther once. I saw him and he popped in and out of existance until I stood exactly on top of him. I was lucky he was standing still.

 

But in regards to your entire post and how it connects to ludonarrative dissonance: at launch, the pvp in this game felt very MMORPG-like but it also felt like Star Wars. In its current state you have to rely on so much suspension of disbelief that you do not really get immersed into the fantasy. You do not feel like the iconic heroes they flaunted with before launch. Instead you feel more like heroes out of the DC universe or Marvel. Everyone can carry the ball in Huttball because everyone has access to powerful movement abilities. At launch you'd only throw the ball to a Sniper in a pinch. Now the Sniper can pick up the ball and with access to double roll they are quite proficient ball carriers. Homogenization. Everyone can do the job. This doesn't just have an averse effect on the aesthetic narrative but, as you've already pointed out, it has affected the gameplay as well. I fully agree that there's been an ability bloating. I'm amazed Shadows/Assassins lost Phase Walk; a good change I'd say but not a popular one if one frequents the forums, which leads me over to...

One might almost come to the conclusion that not all feedback should be listened to, even if it's being said very loudly by certain clusters of forumites...

 

This. Player feedback is important but not all player feedback is valid. Take Operative healing, as an example. Throughout 1.0-1.2 there was this notion that Operative healers were bad in pvp. I played an Operative healer at the time and I had no trouble keeping up with Sorcerers or Commandos in healing output (I also ran NM Operations at the time but I never viewed these as particularly challenging but it proves Operatives weren't underpowered for any content) and my survivability was in general much higher. So much so that I got quite the renown on my server for being unkillable. Then, in either 1.4 or 1.5 Operatives were buffed to such a degree that they were now the fotm-healer. I got tired of it, personally. Healing started to feel so pointless. Stopped healing in 1.7 altogether and never since have I managed to return to the spec and enjoy it, especially not today.

 

Like with anything, it's usually the disconent that makes the most noise. Those who are satisfied will not make thousands of forum posts about how great their experience is. So if enough people repeat a certain mantra, it might seem to be the truth from Bioware's perspective.

[Majspuffen]

Its not a pvp gameplay mechanic issue, but it is another example of Ludonarrative Dissonance: Agents and Troopers love to pull out their sidearm pistol all the time in cutscenes but they're always using a rifle in combat, because that's what they actually have equipped. It's a small thing, yeah, but sometimes the lack of polish in a product becomes significant as it accumulates over time.

 

Perfect example. It's even worse because often you'll see the rifle on your character's back. Using a double-bladed lightsaber has made some moments in the Eternal Empire story arc that were supposed to be epic rather cringeworthy instead. My character keeps stabbing herself with her double-bladed saber whilst fighting Arcann. No amount of suspension of disbelief can see that as anything other than what it is: poor quality. And rather than experiencing a sense of katharsis in these moments I instead experience disappointment and start to analyze the underlying mechanical web that constructs the scene.

[TrixxieTriss]

Everyone can carry the ball in Huttball because everyone has access to powerful movement abilities. At launch you'd only throw the ball to a Sniper in a pinch. Now the Sniper can pick up the ball and with access to double roll they are quite proficient ball

 

I just started playing my Sniper again and have been carrying while teams by carrying the ball from pick up to the line. (19 medals the other night).

But that’s only happening because most teams are completely ignoring the ball and focusing on death matching. Double roll isn’t a sniper ability, it’s an Operative one. Yes you can reset the roll to use it twice, but that ability also has a CD.

Snipers really shouldn’t be running the ball the whole way and the only reason I ever pick up the ball is cause no one else will.

[AlrikFassbauer]

[Entering from a state of having a flu.]

 

When I began SWTOR, my very first character was the Counselor.

 

Why ? Because ... With that character, I thought, I'd learn deeper insights into Jedi spirituality. Isn't that the term "Sage" stands for ?

 

My naive hopes faltered as I began to realize that there is no spirituality, no diplomacy, no trasure hunting, no archaeology, no discovery / investigation in that game.

Much later I doscovered that all of that was available through material collecting messions in crafting.

And that the imperial side has the only real Archaeology setting within the whole game (Korriban, Inquisitor story line).

 

In the end, SWTOR is about nothing but combat.

 

In that, it's an Action-RPG, and Action-RPGs as a sub-genre were invented by Blizzard, long before they created WOW.

 

So, as it appears to me now, a bit bitter, it's that any "proper MMO" is basically a combat game. There might be outliers, yes ( The Secret World), but the older I become, the more I wonder why everything has to be so much combat-centered ? Does the industry" fear that non-combat would not produce "enough" profits ?

 

In the end, it's to me a self-fulfilly prophecy : It is assumed that people want only combat games. And at the samew times, no alternatives are produced ( read : no non-combat games are produced ) to give us a choice.

With giving no alternative, it's easy to say that "people want that monopoly". So to say.

 

So, my Sage doesn't behave as a Sage in the first place. He acts like a warrior, or, to use a term used by Padme Amidala : He uses "aggressive negotiations".

 

Interesting is, that the origin of the word "Sage" is listed in Wikipedia as the very last entry, under "other uses" :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sage

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sage_(philosophy)

 

The Sage is even called "Seher" ( literal transklation : "Seer" ) in the German-language version of SWTOR.

 

This, the Sage not behaving like everyone would expect a Sage to do, created my very first "Ludonarrative Dissonance".

 

Edit : Much later I learned that the Counselor clas was oroiginally meant to be called "Wizard". Seriously.

Edited January 11, 2019 by AlrikFassbauer

[salaciouscrumbbb]

I got into swtor over the holidays looking for the star wars vibe, but overall I was left wanting due to this ludonarrative dissonance you're talking about. I played a sage and found the story so divorced from the force mythos that I ended up skipping most cutscenes. I was just an "aggressive negotiator" with the odd "let them live, it's the right thing to do" choice. I was a sage/seer strong-arming people in petty political disputes.. felt absurd. I was hoping it would have been modeled off more of a dagobah yoda-esque style. Have the story revolve around self discovery and tie in the gaining of new abilities to the sages story as trials or something. A little more jedi philosophy and spirituality. Forget the epic hero saving the galaxy routine, leave that to the uppity knights. The only moment I felt some star wars mystique was during a side quest early on in Tython. There was a padawan trying to lift a rock and he asks for your help. The way I played it, eventually a master came to admonish him and laid down a deep lesson about perseverance. That was good. Other than that, all the jedi master npcs felt terribly inauthentic.

 

Aside from the jedi narrative, another gripe is with the overall visual aesthetic of other players. Most of my time was spent doing flashpoints and very rarely did I play with a crew that made it feel like star wars.. all the wacky outfits and lightsaber colors. I wanted to roll with jedi only using single blue and green sabers (and the odd purple) and in traditional looking outfits, otherwise it veered into feeling like a generic mmo. The rare times I did get this it was great and I was in star wars land briefly. Granted if I played long enough I'm sure I could get a friends list full of strictly old school jedi rp'ers.

 

My other ludonarrative dissonance complaints really just come down to the core gameplay itself. The mechanics date back to wow 2004 and for me it just feels too old, constraining, shallow, and dull. The thin star wars veneer barely made it interesting for a short time. I played seer and it eventually didn't feel like I was healing anybody, just doing some weird form of dynamic accounting.. staring at ops frames making sure the numbers stayed balanced, slapping keys by rote. In most instances you could give me a black screen with only the ops frames and I would have been just as effective. In harder fights sure I had to move to accommodate boss gimmicks, but it felt like more of a janky annoyance than a cool epic event. Within my week of playing I was in 230 gear running mostly master modes with little fun or challenge.. living for the cinematic moment of igniting sabers in unison just before a fight, the rare chance to force pull a teammate to safety, or force pushing a group of enemies (frowned upon in mm since it wrecks aoe attacks..) and then mindlessly going back to my rotation barely moving.

 

My issues with gameplay are probably complaints of many mmos. The genre is so stale. Had it's moments though and overall I think it's a good game for a short playthrough for any mmo fan. Didn't scratch the star wars itch like jedi outcast, jedi power battles, and kotor2 did for me. There is also something about watching the same enemy take 100+ lightsaber hits and still stand that hurts me inside.

[Ardrossan]

[Entering from a state of having a flu.]

 

When I began SWTOR, my very first character was the Counselor.

 

Why ? Because ... With that character, I thought, I'd learn deeper insights into Jedi spirituality. Isn't that the term "Sage" stands for ?

 

My naive hopes faltered as I began to realize that there is no spirituality, no diplomacy, no trasure hunting, no archaeology, no discovery / investigation in that game.

Much later I doscovered that all of that was available through material collecting messions in crafting.

And that the imperial side has the only real Archaeology setting within the whole game (Korriban, Inquisitor story line).

[...]

Interesting is, that the origin of the word "Sage" is listed in Wikipedia as the very last entry, under "other uses" :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sage

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sage_(philosophy)

 

The Sage is even called "Seher" ( literal transklation : "Seer" ) in the German-language version of SWTOR.

 

This, the Sage not behaving like everyone would expect a Sage to do, created my very first "Ludonarrative Dissonance".

 

Edit : Much later I learned that the Counselor clas was oroiginally meant to be called "Wizard". Seriously.

 

It's 'Consular', a word that means diplomat, ie. The Consulate. The class is a holdover from the Consulars of Kotor 1 & 2.

 

And you do a fair amount of diplomacy in the game as a consular, from Alderaan to the Rift Alliance, to Corellia, and to some extent, to Makeb/Yavin/Odessen. A lot more than in the original kotors. I personally had no issue with that.

 

As far as sage, I'm a bit confused...were you expecting them to quote philosophy? Because they do, on occasion, but they're also Jedi who carry lightsabers and fight Sith. They don't sit in the library all day meditating. Do you suppose players would enjoy playing a character that never left Tython?

 

Now, a seer, by contrast, is one who sees, ie. precognition, and the Sage Seer is a healer. That's dissonance, I suppose. Much like the inquisitor, who by their name is supposed to question from an authority position, but do almost nothing like that in the game. The original Sith inquisitors were Jerec and the 7 Dark Jedi, who sort of did that [the one from Rebels is a better example imo], but even by the time of Dark Empire it had become a meaningless word to describe mid-level DSers who aren't lords.

 

@salacious

Aside from the jedi narrative, another gripe is with the overall visual aesthetic of other players. Most of my time was spent doing flashpoints and very rarely did I play with a crew that made it feel like star wars.. all the wacky outfits and lightsaber colors. I wanted to roll with jedi only using single blue and green sabers (and the odd purple) and in traditional looking outfits, otherwise it veered into feeling like a generic mmo. The rare times I did get this it was great and I was in star wars land briefly. Granted if I played long enough I'm sure I could get a friends list full of strictly old school jedi rp'ers.

 

Should have been here for 1.0. Except that it was terrible because every class dressed exactly the same and there was no creativity. Whereas now you can, in your own story, dress that way, without insisting that everyone must do this for the sake of 'authenticity'.

Edited January 12, 2019 by Ardrossan

[Lhancelot]

Like with anything, it's usually the disconent that makes the most noise. Those who are satisfied will not make thousands of forum posts about how great their experience is. So if enough people repeat a certain mantra, it might seem to be the truth from Bioware's perspective.

 

There's some truth to this, but when there is fire there is smoke.

 

Sure, every gaming forum will have discontent posted across it, but when there's overwhelming negative posts all saying the same thing and it's not just the same 2-5 complainants you can bet the issues being complained about are probably worth looking into.

 

The crappy communication from the SWTOR reps only incites the resentment more btw. Doesn't help not acknowledging bugs and issues in the game for a month with heads stuck in sand.

[Lhancelot]

I got into swtor over the holidays looking for the star wars vibe, but overall I was left wanting due to this ludonarrative dissonance you're talking about. I played a sage and found the story so divorced from the force mythos that I ended up skipping most cutscenes. I was just an "aggressive negotiator" with the odd "let them live, it's the right thing to do" choice. I was a sage/seer strong-arming people in petty political disputes.. felt absurd. I was hoping it would have been modeled off more of a dagobah yoda-esque style. Have the story revolve around self discovery and tie in the gaining of new abilities to the sages story as trials or something. A little more jedi philosophy and spirituality. Forget the epic hero saving the galaxy routine, leave that to the uppity knights. The only moment I felt some star wars mystique was during a side quest early on in Tython. There was a padawan trying to lift a rock and he asks for your help. The way I played it, eventually a master came to admonish him and laid down a deep lesson about perseverance. That was good. Other than that, all the jedi master npcs felt terribly inauthentic.

 

Aside from the jedi narrative, another gripe is with the overall visual aesthetic of other players. Most of my time was spent doing flashpoints and very rarely did I play with a crew that made it feel like star wars.. all the wacky outfits and lightsaber colors. I wanted to roll with jedi only using single blue and green sabers (and the odd purple) and in traditional looking outfits, otherwise it veered into feeling like a generic mmo. The rare times I did get this it was great and I was in star wars land briefly. Granted if I played long enough I'm sure I could get a friends list full of strictly old school jedi rp'ers.

 

My other ludonarrative dissonance complaints really just come down to the core gameplay itself. The mechanics date back to wow 2004 and for me it just feels too old, constraining, shallow, and dull. The thin star wars veneer barely made it interesting for a short time. I played seer and it eventually didn't feel like I was healing anybody, just doing some weird form of dynamic accounting.. staring at ops frames making sure the numbers stayed balanced, slapping keys by rote. In most instances you could give me a black screen with only the ops frames and I would have been just as effective. In harder fights sure I had to move to accommodate boss gimmicks, but it felt like more of a janky annoyance than a cool epic event. Within my week of playing I was in 230 gear running mostly master modes with little fun or challenge.. living for the cinematic moment of igniting sabers in unison just before a fight, the rare chance to force pull a teammate to safety, or force pushing a group of enemies (frowned upon in mm since it wrecks aoe attacks..) and then mindlessly going back to my rotation barely moving.

 

My issues with gameplay are probably complaints of many mmos. The genre is so stale. Had it's moments though and overall I think it's a good game for a short playthrough for any mmo fan. Didn't scratch the star wars itch like jedi outcast, jedi power battles, and kotor2 did for me. There is also something about watching the same enemy take 100+ lightsaber hits and still stand that hurts me inside.

 

I found this a good read, coming from a newer player just hearing your perspective. Very interesting, thanks for sharing this.

[Ylliarus]

There's some truth to this, but when there is fire there is smoke.

 

Sure, every gaming forum will have discontent posted across it, but when there's overwhelming negative posts all saying the same thing and it's not just the same 2-5 complainants you can bet the issues being complained about are probably worth looking into.

 

The crappy communication from the SWTOR reps only incites the resentment more btw. Doesn't help not acknowledging bugs and issues in the game for a month with heads stuck in sand.

 

I do tend to agree with the previous poster more, especially when it comes to these forums. As I said before in other threads, these forums are frequented by a very particular/niche sort of player. Not meaning this in any negative way of course, definitely not meant as an insult. Yet this particular group of forum posters tend to have very specific demands or expectations for this game. When they voice them, they have the tendency to do so aggressively or perhaps better said, passionately and loudly. Again, not meant negatively in the slightest because I'm one of those posters.

 

The major issue with these forums however is that because of what I just wrote, sometimes it can seem as if a large crowd of people is saying the same thing, but in practice it's not always the case. Usually what is happening is a loud minority voicing their opinions, that try to claim a majority but only create the appearance of being numerous by being aggressively/passionately loud.

 

So I tend to agree with the poster you reacted to, to me it's not as much a case of many people saying the same, but more a case of the same few people saying the same thing very loudly.

[Lhancelot]

Yet this particular group of forum posters tend to have very specific demands or expectations for this game.

 

Right, this is a true statement. When resentment or anger forms, it's due to expectations not being met. That is what breeds the "hate" on the forums. Also, it's true not every game is for everyone, I can't expect the game to mold into what I want.

 

However!

 

I know my resentment comes from the alterations to the gameplay of the actual game within a few years time. The game went from a alt-loving highly customizable gearing system at one point to the exact opposite. Even conquest was changed to not be alt-friendly. The whole game went this direction it seems. This might not affect some types of players, but as a heavy PVPer this had a huge impact on how I enjoyed playing the game.

 

So yes, my expectations never changed, the game changed and these expectations then were no longer met. When the game did not meet my expectations I became disappointed and resentful.

 

Also, the lack of transparency and inconsistency in communication only adds salt to that wound in my opinion.

[Ylliarus]

Right, this is a true statement. When resentment or anger forms, it's due to expectations not being met. That is what breeds the "hate" on the forums. Also, it's true not every game is for everyone, I can't expect the game to mold into what I want.

 

However!

 

I know my resentment comes from the alterations to the gameplay of the actual game within a few years time. The game went from a alt-loving highly customizable gearing system at one point to the exact opposite. Even conquest was changed to not be alt-friendly. The whole game went this direction it seems. This might not affect some types of players, but as a heavy PVPer this had a huge impact on how I enjoyed playing the game.

 

So yes, my expectations never changed, the game changed and these expectations then were no longer met. When the game did not meet my expectations I became disappointed and resentful.

 

Also, the lack of transparency and inconsistency in communication only adds salt to that wound in my opinion.

 

I do admit that the devs have made rather huge mistakes in regards to the game. The fact they changed from an alt-friendly game to one that wasn't alt-friendly was one of the major mistakes. Which is something I still don't understand the reasoning on, which is a sentiment that agrees with what you said about the lack of transparency and communication. Is it because Keith has a thing against people having alts? Is it because the devs don't understand players really like alts? It's unclear, which is bad and creates more resentment that could have been easily avoided.

[Majspuffen]

I just started playing my Sniper again and have been carrying while teams by carrying the ball from pick up to the line. (19 medals the other night).

But that’s only happening because most teams are completely ignoring the ball and focusing on death matching. Double roll isn’t a sniper ability, it’s an Operative one. Yes you can reset the roll to use it twice, but that ability also has a CD.

Snipers really shouldn’t be running the ball the whole way and the only reason I ever pick up the ball is cause no one else will.

Yes, I omitted the fact that they need to use a cooldown to use the roll twice. I would not argue that Snipers are as effective ball carriers as Operatives (because Operatives are insane), but with the tools they have at their disposal they can cover a lot of ground, including passing harmlessly through environmental hazards. If they can reach the last obstacle before the goal line, they've already scored if their roll is available. In classic SWTOR Snipers were atrocious ball carriers. Their only strength was Cover with its charge and pull immunity, but you can't move and maintain Cover at the same time. The Sniper was highly defensive in Huttball, which was more fitting for the class in my opinion.

 

By the way, what is the point of the steep slope after the last obstacle in Vandin Huttball? Could they have designed it to be more Lolroll-friendly? :/

 

Sure, every gaming forum will have discontent posted across it, but when there's overwhelming negative posts all saying the same thing and it's not just the same 2-5 complainants you can bet the issues being complained about are probably worth looking into.

Definitely, but I do wonder how thorough their investigations were. From my experience on the forums in the early days, I'd say a lot of the perceived problems were due to lack of knowledge. Some learn to play issues need to be adressed, of course, but when the playerbase says that a class is broken and there's evidence on the contrary, perhaps you shouldn't just buff it to appease people. That's how you get fotm-specs.

 

Should have been here for 1.0. Except that it was terrible because every class dressed exactly the same and there was no creativity. Whereas now you can, in your own story, dress that way, without insisting that everyone must do this for the sake of 'authenticity'.

One benefit of the system in 1.0-1.1 is that the fantasy was reinforced, even if that infringed upon our desire to express our individualities. Aesthethically, perhaps the game was at its best from 1.2 until the Cartel Market. The Cartle Market introduced the possibility for Sith Sorcerers to sport the Havoc Insignia, which doesn't really make any sense. I recall someone trying to make reason out of it by saying that it was like a trophy, but that still doesn't make sense. For two reasons:

 

First: the trooper class that normally wears the uniform has higher base armor, meaning they take less damage from attacks in comparison to the light armored Sorcerer.

Second: If the Sorcerer looks like the enemy then they'd risk getting attacked by their own team mates. Good thing there's no friendly fire.

 

So, yeah, the Cartel Market produced a ton of ludonarrative dissonance. This new "adaptive" armor type is dissonant in and of itself. We've all seen Bounty Hunters and Troopers running around in bikinis. That doesn't make any sense. And to think the developers who allowed this also made specific armor animations for bounty hunters (abilities using the jetpack will utilize any jetpack that is equipped, which is really nice attention to detail).

 

And lastly, something I wanted to say in my first post and something I've wanted to say since: Warzones and Galactic Starfighter are full of ludonarrative dissonance these days. All teams are mixed. It started with Odessen, but that one was designed around the alliance storyarch. Voidstar wasn't. Civil war wasn't. Everything is a training scenario for the alliance these days, even when the story has returned to its root with imps vs reps. They did this to appease the playerbase who complain about the long queue times. They removed faction identity from the one gameplay mode where it matters most. And I don't see this as a change that they can revert.

Edited January 12, 2019 by Majspuffen