Make Mirror classes actual mirrors

[sithgrizley]

Personally, I'd be fine with that. As long as they fix the dozen or so equally disadvantageous problems the Republic has.

 

Name half a dozen. That should be easy right? The OP has less than 3 that haven't been completely debunked or are complete opinion. Ie. your questlines are coolner, purple is cooler than cyan etc.

 

Before you mention project vs shock make sure you've read the posts by Shadow players BEGGING you to stop crying about it and nerf their burst. Also don't bother with any "imbalance" that's been debunked ie. turrets cap faster for Empire etc.

[savionen]

Name half a dozen. That should be easy right? The OP has less than 3 that haven't been completely debunked or are complete opinion. Ie. your questlines are coolner, purple is cooler than cyan etc.

 

Before you mention project vs shock make sure you've read the posts by Shadow players BEGGING you to stop crying about it and nerf their burst. Also don't bother with any "imbalance" that's been debunked ie. turrets cap faster for Empire etc.

 

Hard to prove anything to you if you don't think there's a difference between Mortar Volley and Death from Above. That video was completely accurate. I originally played a Powertech, and made a Vanguard instead.

 

Death from Above's damage is just about instant. If you're standing in the red graphic, you're already taking damage in PvP.

 

Mortar Volley has a 1.5-2second serious delay. It's borderline worthless in PvP because people have 1.5 seconds to get out of the huge blue graphic that is beneath them.

 

And btw, my main is a Shadow. Project is terrible.

Edited February 9, 2012 by savionen

[sithgrizley]

Ummm no, both are insta casts and both have an animation that takes about half a second to do, the difference here is the SI animation is morew obvious but both do take about half a second maybe slightly less. Look closely and you will see the COnsular animation, it is easily recognizable, just not nearly as obvious.

 

I am aware of the animation, and from button press to movement the JC is faster than the SI.

 

 

You are ignoring the issue related to this where your raw dmg per second is different (it is a measure of time, there is NO travel time for the sorc) and also it is an issue when you need to interrupt a capture or bomb plant etc... which was also pointed out... This is one of the more obvious issues that are not mirrored.... if the classes are mirrored they both either need travel time or both need to be instant, I think most people would be happy with either so long as the playing field was leveled.

 

The only time the dps is different is during the flight time, when it hits the dps is the same and the burst is HIGHER for project.

 

Please, quit trying to paint an advantage as a disadvantage. It only makes the whole thread more whiney sounding than it already is.

 

Go on, look back in the thread where multiple Shadows have asked you not to get them nerfed by making project an instant. I'm cool with shock having a flight time, I do have an Assassin and buffs are always good.

 

 

Some of the animation differences are huge, Smugglers in particular get shafted in this area, (cover, sabo grenade travel time, dirty kick self rooting, just being a few examples). The one you mentioned above the issue is the effect does not occur until the animation completes, the trooper one has travel to target time involved..... thus advantage BH....

 

The animations have no effect... When I'm playing Empire I get stunned by the stupid grenade THEN see it fly in.

 

Post some videos with both classes if you think there are actual imbalances. And don't look at the graphics, look at the debuffs.

 

I will say this, Bioware did fix one of the differences between Smugglers and Agents recently, they gave Smugglers the same cooldown on flashgrenade that Agents always had on Flash Bang, which was a huge 30 seconds difference. So those saying Bioware has not corrected anything on this list are also wrong, they have, they just are doing themselves a disservice by not even acknowledging some of these differences, even if it is just to debunk common perceptions (or misperceptions as the case my be).

 

 

Yep, they also fixed a bug where Sorcs got no initial tick on their ground heal and the Republic got double. I'm all for fixing bugs. Mirror classes should have the same cooldowns, damage numbers and the like. I don't agree that they need to exactly mirror each other in animations and all that though. I mean, do you really want JKs to use the SW OOC heal ability just because it looks cooler and they're a mirror?

[Fdzzaigl]

I assume you're also ok with them buffing the Sith knockbacks?

 

You DO know that the JC knockback activates about .5 seconds faster than the SI from button press to knockback right? That in unquestionably a massive advantage to the JC. There is no advantage to burst loading a positioning ability and that faction of a second will often throw off the angles from the SI.

 

The "imbalance" of shock vs project has already been pointed out as a difference that is just as often an advantage as a disadvantage.

 

...

 

So basically you complain about the JC knockback, which is perceived as faster by you (no actual proof), but all the animations that are slower for the Republic are fine because they offer "advantages".

Well, I guess a slower knockback animation takes you farther into the GCD, which allows you to line up the next ability for greater burst then hmm? (which is total ********, but still used to justify these imbalances in the case of project)

 

The only thing that counts is having damage upfront asap.

Despite some rants and subjectivity, the OP has provided videos that illustrate each of the issues clearly.

 

Anyone who plays republic in warzones regularly will have noticed the right turret ticking faster initially, it has not been "debunked" in any way.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Fdzzaigl

[sithgrizley]

Hard to prove anything to you if you don't think there's a difference between Mortar Volley and Death from Above. That video was completely accurate. I originally played a Powertech, and made a Vanguard instead.

 

Death from Above's damage is just about instant. If you're standing in the red graphic, you're already taking damage in PvP.

 

Mortar Volley has a 1.5-2second serious delay. It's borderline worthless in PvP because people have 1.5 seconds to get out of the huge blue graphic that is beneath them.

 

And btw, my main is a Shadow. Project is terrible.

 

MV and Full Auto are the two potential real issues that I've seen so far. DFA is FAR from instant, but MV could be even slower.

 

The two classes I main are Merc and Shadow and I can tell you that the damage from DFA is delayed by animation just like everything else and if you made Project instant I would be a sad panda.

 

Shock vs Project the advantage goes to shock if...

 

The target will die in 1 Shock.

The target will be dropped into Assassinate range by 1 shock.

The target will cap or vanish during the flight time.

 

All of these are fairly rare situations or have extremely little impact. If the target is low enough for Shock to kill the only way Project doesn't is if they get a heal while the damage is in flight.

 

Project is at an advantage if...

The target is full hp.

The target will be alive for for longer than the flight time.

 

In either of those cases Project allows a Project/Thrash burst that measured from damage start to damage end has far higher dps than a Shock/Thrash burst. The dps from initial button press is the same.

 

To help illustrate the advantage, would you rather have a skill that lets you put a 1000 dps dot on the target for 10 seconds or one that will deal 10,000 damage in a single shot after 10 seconds?

 

If you prefer the former you have never stepped foot into MMO PvP.

[sithgrizley]

So basically you complain about the JC knockback, which is perceived as faster by you (no actual proof), but all the animations that are slower for the Republic are fine because they offer "advantages".

Well, I guess a slower knockback animation takes you farther into the GCD, which allows you to line up the next ability for greater burst then hmm? (which is total ********, but still used to justify these imbalances in the case of project)

 

The only thing that counts is having damage upfront asap.

Despite some rants and subjectivity, the OP has provided videos that illustrate each of the issues clearly.

 

Anyone who plays republic in warzones regularly will have noticed the right turret ticking faster initially, it has not been "debunked" in any way.

 

Ahh, so I'll throw in the "never pvped" camp.

 

For a knockback you obviously want the forced movement as soon as possible, it's a defensive cooldown.

 

For many of the "slower animations" they simply have no impact, you instantly get the debuff or buff and then the animation plays. At best that's a wash, at worst it's a Republic advantage in some cases. Ie. the drone not showing up until AFTER it's exploded for a burst.

 

In the case of Project vs Shock, really if you can't get why buffering damage is good then you're just hopeless in pvp. Let me use a WoW example, Hunters in WoW, they start an aimed shot, then as soon as the cast time is up hit arcane and multi. From their perspective they've been on target for 3 seconds, from the targets point of view their running along and suddenly eat 3 nearly simultaneous shots because there is no warning of the cast time on aimed shot. They go full to half in a split second.

 

A very similar thing happens with Project, the Shadow starts with a Project, then hits their next big damage attack based on spec. From the Shadow point of view they started combat when they first hit Project, from the targets point of view they instantly eat two extremely hard hitting abilities within a fraction of a second. This is a massive advantage.

 

The OP is nothing but someone crying for attention and grabbing onto any shred of biased "evidence" he can to fuel his crusade. Fortunately he attracts plenty of sheeple from the Republic side to "me too" for him.

 

Really, look at the original post, it's all either shot down or things like "Cyan isn't as cool as Purple." "The Empire has more style" "I like your story better than mine". Really, I'm sorry you like the Empire better, but every single one of those things is subjective, personal and if you look at the top rank Shadow vs Assassin gear completely false.

 

There are some very cool things about being Empire side, Jawa companion! There are some very cool things about being Republic side, robot cross between the Tick and HK? Awesome! If you listen to the people in this thread then the Republic uses grey lightsabers half the size of the Empire and falls over every time their mirror class looks at them. Objectively that is false.

[savionen]

MV and Full Auto are the two potential real issues that I've seen so far. DFA is FAR from instant, but MV could be even slower.

 

The two classes I main are Merc and Shadow and I can tell you that the damage from DFA is delayed by animation just like everything else and if you made Project instant I would be a sad panda.

 

Shock vs Project the advantage goes to shock if...

 

The target will die in 1 Shock.

The target will be dropped into Assassinate range by 1 shock.

The target will cap or vanish during the flight time.

 

All of these are fairly rare situations or have extremely little impact. If the target is low enough for Shock to kill the only way Project doesn't is if they get a heal while the damage is in flight.

 

Project is at an advantage if...

The target is full hp.

The target will be alive for for longer than the flight time.

 

In either of those cases Project allows a Project/Thrash burst that measured from damage start to damage end has far higher dps than a Shock/Thrash burst. The dps from initial button press is the same.

 

To help illustrate the advantage, would you rather have a skill that lets you put a 1000 dps dot on the target for 10 seconds or one that will deal 10,000 damage in a single shot after 10 seconds?

 

If you prefer the former you have never stepped foot into MMO PvP.

 

I'm not sure why you'd prefer Project even though it can't be used for interrupting towers/doors or casting, or the fact that it will be a waste of force/damage if the person stealths.

 

Controlled burst is of course, good, but you're delaying it. Doing 1000, 1000, 0, 4000 isn't really any better than 1000, 1000, 2000, 2000 if the person knows about the delay. If they start casting a heal they're going to live regardless, it's not like Project does more damage. I'm almost valor rank 60 and I've had dozens and dozens of times where I've been like **** Project delay! Because the person gets healed at the very last second, or help arrives, or the other above mentioned issues. In PvE it's like "hey, these delayed floating rocks are kinda cool" but that's pretty much it.

 

When someone faces a Shadow, all they have to do is toss themselves a heal at 40% instead of waiting til 20%, and then not heal themselves later on. That's not much of an advantage, really considering all the things you lose.

[Thekze]

Hey everyone,

 

I have: 50 vanguard, 33 commando and 25 mercenary.

 

I can easily tell that Mortar Volley damage does not start when the channeling bar appears. Meaning that when I need the skill and use it, I gotta wait a close to a second before it actually starts doing damage. That's a second I need in PVP.

 

My mercenary's mirror skill "Death from Above" starts almost instantly.

 

EDIT: Proof of the delay:

 

 

 

Please fix already? I've been sending tickets about this since early access !!

[sithgrizley]

I'm not sure why you'd prefer Project even though it can't be used for interrupting towers/doors or casting, or the fact that it will be a waste of force/damage if the person stealths.

 

Technically true, in cases where you start your cast with ~1 second out of 8 left on the cap time. In those cases use forcepull, it can't happen more than once a game.

 

If the person avoids damage by stealthing they blowing a long cooldown to avoid damage from a skill that will at worst reset 8 seconds later and likely will reset much faster because of Particle Acceleration.

 

 

Controlled burst is of course, good, but you're delaying it. Doing 1000, 1000, 0, 4000 isn't really any better than 1000, 1000, 2000, 2000 if the person knows about the delay. If they start casting a heal they're going to live regardless, it's not like Project does more damage. I'm almost valor rank 60 and I've had dozens and dozens of times where I've been like **** Project delay! Because the person gets healed at the very last second, or help arrives, or the other above mentioned issues. In PvE it's like "hey, these delayed floating rocks are kinda cool" but that's pretty much it.

 

Spikey damage is always better, though a good player can certainly marginalize the benefit when they know it's coming.

 

1000, 1000, 2000, 2000 may be ALMOST as good as 1000, 1000, 0, 4000 when used against someone who knows how your class plays and to prepare for the big hit but it's not better.

 

While 4000, 1000, 1000 is massively superior to 2000, 2000, 1000, 1000. There is no counterplay in that, you cannot "preheal" damage. In addition that 4000, 1000, 1000 has a smaller window to heal in before the target is in execute range.

 

So yes, Project is at least some of the time a significant advantage. That's balanced by cases where you don't care about burst and just want instant damage of any kind. In both cases you can play around the mechanic and it might even alter your rotation slightly with the Shadow using the leadoff project to try to combo down to execute range while the Assassin starts with a different ability or hopes for a Shock reset proc so he can combo Shock->Assassinate at the end.

 

 

When someone faces a Shadow, all they have to do is toss themselves a heal at 40% instead of waiting til 20%, and then not heal themselves later on. That's not much of an advantage, really considering all the things you lose.

 

 

What you lose is interrupting caps when they finish during the flight time, and any time the target dies, vanishes or is healed out of the damage of the shock during flight time. All three can happen, no doubt. On the balance, you get initial burst that can't be counterplayed, and higher spike damage mid fight.

 

EDIT: Removed the snarky comment and eyeroll at the start, you seem like a fairly reasonable guy and don't deserve it. The amount of straight crybabies in this thread doesn't change that.

Edited February 10, 2012 by sithgrizley

[Cylestat]

Devs, we need a response on this. Your lack of response on something the community obviously feels so strongly about doesn't look good on your ability to manage this game through years of development.

[Dalonewolf]

The Op makes some very good points!

[swifferdude]

I agree FULLY, its about time someone spoke up about this! Now tht I've read this, I can TOTALLY see the difference, needed someone to "wake me up" so I could see these major differences... BW FIX IT

[ErrantMercenary]

Obligatory daily bump.

 

 

In addition: Something to keep in mind for our Imperial friends asserting that input lag/animation delays somehow favor the caster (i.e. Project vs. Shock) in some way: This is irrelevant. Even if it somehow IS an advantage, we're calling for normalization! I don't care if Shock gets changed to have equivalent delay, or if Project gets made to do damage instantly. All any smart player wants is for the two mirror abilities to function identically. In other words: I don't care what SHAPE the mirror takes, just so long as it IS a mirror.

[ErrantMercenary]

Also worth noting, from the PTR 1.1.3 notes:

 

General

Surge rating has been re-balanced. It now reaches diminishing returns the same way as other damage ratings, and its per point damage contribution has been reduced by approximately 10%.

 

Bounty Hunter

 

Mercenary

 

Arsenal

Stabilizers: Correctly adds pushback resistance to Unload.

Trooper

 

Commando

 

Gunnery

Steadied Aim: Correctly adds pushback resistance to Full Auto.

 

We'll see if Troopers can use Full Auto as intended now.

[greviouz]

Also worth noting, from the PTR 1.1.3 notes:

 

 

 

We'll see if Troopers can use Full Auto as intended now.

 

 

 

well i hope so my commando is currently specced healing because i'm tired of bugged dmg abilities

[ErrantMercenary]

*hipcheck*

 

Up you go thread. It's that time of day again.

 

Also, we missed out last week, but I've posted to the Q&A thread for this week voicing our concerns.

 

My question follows, feel free to post similar things or refine on what I've said to make it shorter/easier to answer:

 

You've announced that Ranked Warzones are slated for release in 1.2. While I am excited at the prospect of a competitive PvP scene being added, is the team going through any process of data collection or internal testing to make sure all classes and factions have as level of footing as possible heading into competitive play? In particular, some of the differences in mirror classes highlighted here or issues like defenders getting shorthanded by the speeder ride in Voidstar seem like they need to be addressed before implementing a competition based system where a player can gain unfair rank advantages from an imbalanced system.

[sixeyes]

I call BS on soloing the 2+ heroics on Ord Mantell without even a companion, maybe you followed another group that killed the elites and clicked on the points before respawn and got to the robot, but no way in hell you soloed the elites without help. It is difficult at level 10-11 with just your companion (dobale but not a cakewalk).

 

You are wrong, my friend. I soloed the Ord Mantell Heroics with my trooper at level 8 without my companion and without actually goint in a path of another group. I died several times but I finished it. You can't tank it, you have to kite it.

[kckkryptonite]

Any devs address this yet?

[Zlashie]

Any devs address this yet?

 

afaik, its being ignored

[Fiachsidhe]

So I would assume then that you also agree that the green graphic for healing on the Trooper isn't an issue? And the darker BH armor isn't an advantage?

 

No I would say neither matter at all, if you have at least one functioning eye, and are remotely paying attention.

[Fiachsidhe]

Name half a dozen. That should be easy right? The OP has less than 3 that haven't been completely debunked or are complete opinion. Ie. your questlines are coolner, purple is cooler than cyan etc.

 

Before you mention project vs shock make sure you've read the posts by Shadow players BEGGING you to stop crying about it and nerf their burst. Also don't bother with any "imbalance" that's been debunked ie. turrets cap faster for Empire etc.

 

There is more than enough in the opening post, but you're so unbelievably biased and narrow minded, it doesn't matter.

 

I'll ask you again, only directly, why are you here? Aside from being a blatantly nonobjective minded Imperial player defending the advantages you know your faction is receiving.

 

You've offered ZERO proof other than assurance that you're right. I'm not going to play your game. You haven't debunked jack. Just saying that something is debunked, doesn't make it true.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Fiachsidhe

[xmasta]

I'm too concerned if bioware doesnt respond to their players who by the looks of it are pointing out serious problems with what should be mirror classes.

Lets hear what is in the works to solve those issues?

[Zlashie]

I know bumping isnt allowed but if they give me a warning, atleast I know that they are looking at this thread

[Metalmac]

Have you read my other posts in this thread and others?

 

I'm saying you and the other 10 people that have repeated the exact same thing as you are wrong.

 

As I've said in other posts in this thread all of those issues need to be fixed asap...they shouldn't have even left beta in this state. If you want a serious response to the thread from a BW employee you need to drop all the bias conspiracies and namecalling. Drop ALL the BS from the OP and just list the abilities that are bugged, how they are bugged, and the proof. Proof in the form of videos/screenshots are EXTREMELY important. I've mentioned this to the OP before but he does not want to do it.

 

If you want to see the abilities fixed I highly suggest you report them via an ingame ticket. I have been doing this for nearly all of the abilities in this thread (that exist in game and not in peoples heads =P) and it'll take you a couple days for your ticket to be answered but they will forward the issue on up.

 

I smell a off duty Bio Ware employee here.

And I have made out tickets to say that I am pissed to make a screen shot or a video as apparently I PAY FOR BEING A BETA TESTER?

 

Since when is my job to fix a game I paid for? Do I pay my mechanic to fix my own car myself?

Edited February 12, 2012 by Metalmac

[Gotho]

I just wanted to add this imbalanced animation to the list.

 

Sith Warrior Force Scream vs Jedi Knight Blade Storm

 

The difference is easily apparent if you have played both for more than a minute.