Make Mirror classes actual mirrors

[TheSecondKira]

The reason they won't say anything is the reason most companies don't say anything.

 

They don't have an ETA, they don't even have a gameplan for fixing most of these issues, so the quieter they are the less likely people will be to quit.

 

 

hmm i see your point but i think most people respect openness and honesty. Bioware should grow a pair and man up to whats happened.

[Morrikan]

The Unload stuff is ********.

Unload suffers a shortening in cast time when you are hit. This effects both sides. As a BH I see it happening all the time. You should also go through all the really obvious PATCH NOTCES (Especially the updated ones) and see that a lot of these issues are fixed.

[mufutiz]

I'd really like to know why most of the discrepancies are to the disadvantage of the Republic.

 

I mean even the freaking canons in Alderaan... it is getting quite ridiculous.

 

And pretty much every animation / delayed activation issue is affecting only the Republic... it might be a strange coincidence but since the Empire faction is much more polished in any other way as well, it is probably just another indicator where the bulk of the development resources went to when making the game, right?

Edited January 16, 2012 by mufutiz

[AnAssassinOfTime]

Full disclosure - I don't subscribe fully to the argument presented by the OP and his supporters. I play Republic side, I play PvP with 3 other skilled guild members, and we almost never lose. I'm okay with so-called "mirror classes" having imbalances, because at the end of the day, PvP is about using the tools you have and the skill you've acquired to win the contest at all costs.

 

That said, I decided to research the Project animation complaint since there seems to be lots of people stating opinions as facts. I, a 50 Shadow, dueled a 50 Sage in my guild. We were both in vent at the time. We started by draining health to low levels. After a few accidental crit deaths, we managed to get to a place where I was at 455 health and the Sage was at 418 health.

 

The plan was this: I would cast project - which would assuredly kill the Sage. The Sage would wait until he saw the Project animation, and then hit his Force Stun.

 

The results were somewhat enigmatic. The game credited me with the duel victory - however, the Force Stun DID hit me and we both ended up at depleted health.

 

My conclusion from this - which is certainly conjecture - is that there is a discrepancy between server-side and client-side with Project. Clearly, the server recognizes my Project as happening first and being instant (hence, why I won the duel). However, the client still allowed the losing player (that the server considers dead and defeated) to attack me.

 

Now, I do not have a 50 Sorcerer yet, so I cannot run a similar test on Imperial side. My guess however would be that with the Shock animation, the opposing player would not have the reaction time to fire off an ability before death.

 

As a result, it seems to me that both sides of this particular debate are correct: Project damage is indeed instant, but the animation on the client does allow a window for the opposition to respond. This would not seem to effect Imperial players as it does Republic players.

 

And all that said, I don't see a single problem with it.

[mufutiz]

And all that said, I don't see a single problem with it.

 

Just because you choose to do it the Ostrich way and ignore quite blatant and obvious discrepancies doesn't mean they are not there. Yes, they are there and they are a problem.

 

Also why do you go out of your way to prove/disprove this in the most unreliable fashion you could possibly attempt to? Just roll a JC and a SI both and try both abilities yourself, then come back and post your results (spoiler: Dozens of people have already posted but you're welcome to join ofc )

 

to be fair though, things like Mortar Volley, Dirty Kick, Back Blast and the flash bang cd difference are more noticeable and have more severe implications than Project/Shock difference... mostly because they are channeled or require melee range where a stun or knockback will hit you quickly.

Edited January 16, 2012 by mufutiz

[Ivonna_Tinkle]

45 Vanguard here, I use full auto and mortar volley everytime off CD as I've leveled. I tried my brother's level 20 Powertech and used the mirror abilities.

 

I almost vomited when I saw damage calculating instantly and has it put a sour taste in my mouth everytime I use these abilities now because I know a PT out there is working and I'm broke. A fact I could live with if there was a nod from the developer end, but the lack of one given the amount of vocality of these issues suggests nothing is going to happen anytime soon. Sadly, I won't be around to find out when they do.

[TheSecondKira]

 

And all that said, I don't see a single problem with it.

 

It's not all about you!... enough said.

[EternalFinality]

And all that said, I don't see a single problem with it.

 

Were you ok with Bright Wizards in Warhammer as well? That pretty much killed the game you know.

[Blue]

How could bioware NOT notice this?

[Babyfood]

fix dirty kick now. Do it please. Pretty please.

[Kellindell]

So I have decided under some suggestion to redo this post to make it look more professional and concise. I was advised to leave my opinion out of it as well, but I dont see that happening as this is a very sore issue for me, and as the 40 + pages have proven with most of the republic, and alot of the PvP community.

 

So what is this thread about?

This thread is not about class balance, which is a huge problem (tracer missile with a sprinkling of backstab spam anyone?) in and of itself. But that is expected of any game. Several people will and have made the argument "Oh do you want to make every class the same?" that is not the place for that.

 

Fact is, this game has 8 classes, not 16. That is a fact, made so by the fact that each mirror class (Trooper/BH, Smuggler/IA etc..) shared a forum in beta. When test phases went through, it was for Trooper/BH, not for trooper or BH separately. If you are not familiar with the term, that makes BH and Trooper "Mirror" classes of each other.

 

Mirror meaning logistically they are targeted to be exactly the same, their only differences are meant to be their faction, ship, story line, armor look and ability animations.

 

In one of the final beta pushes Bioware streamlined all the abilities and talents to make them exactly the same, or rather they attempted too, which is the problem here. So please dont try to argue this isnt so. It is so. Their are 8 classes in this game, mirrors of each other. Targeted in design to be exactly the same, except that design failed either by accident, or with purpose. We cannot know, we can only speculate that it was on purpose based on the high amount of evidence pointing towards it, and the silence of the developers.

What exactly is the problem then?

 

The problem is that because bioware put so much into the combat animations, it created a discrepancy within the mirrors of each class. Meaning, some animations give an advantage over its mirror ability. IE Project VS shock, tracer missile VS gravity round etc...

 

Now before you state that this isnt problem, think about this as well as reading on. These are supposed to be exactly the same. This isnt the difference between a 2.5 second cast ability that does high damage VS a 1.5 second ability that does light damage. This is differences in abilities that are INTENDED to be exactly the same.

 

In simpler terms, think about any generic fantasy MMO that has two factions that share the same classes. Now imagine if for some reason for Faction A fireball does 300 damage, and for faction B fireball does 200 damage but in every single way the mage class, and fireball is exactly the same, and on top of that faction B doesnt have an ability that one ups faction A.

 

Is this really a big deal?

Yes, regardless of how little the difference is, or whether or not its sprinkled evenly amongst the classes and factions, it creates an imbalance in a system built upon the foundation that everything is supposed to be the same to create fairness and equality.

 

Its an even bigger deal because every single advantage goes to the Sith.

 

Not one of the discrepancies favors the Republic.

 

What else is going on?

Their are some other problems that add to this. Other advantages the sith empire gets, or more polish on their gear and class quests, abilities that work more accurately, or mirrored companions (yes companions are mirrored as well for each class. IE Khem Val = Qyzen Fes) that work better. The consensus seems to be that Sith story arcs are better, and more specifically the romance arcs have more depth. Normally even I would rule this under conjecture, but the overwhelming number of posts about this from both sith and republic alike lets me feel good about mentioning it here.

 

Also, their are some more cold hard facts going on in PvP situations that give Sith advantages that are not class specific, we will touch on those later in the post.

 

Why is the silence so bad? Devs have alot on their plate.

 

Its true, they do. But problems similar to this have happened in games, and silence was the answers from the development team and the PvP community died, and subscriptions dropped like flies. This created underpopulated servers or servers with MASSIVE population imbalances essentially making them unplayable for PvP, causing even more loss in subscriptions.

 

Also in a more simple light, it just creates a very bad relationship between the creators of the game and its player base, which should not be the intended goal of said developers.

 

It also lends more to the theory that this is all purposeful. Right now the consensus (based off thousands of forum posts and threads) is that Sith Empire is favored. Devs admitted pre launch they would be playing Sith, Sith have much more polish, and all these invisible advantages granted to them. Add the silence of the developers, and it just creates an all around bad blood situation amongst the players.

These issues were pointed out time and time again in BETA and were ignored, and the result was the Sith greatly outnumbering the republic on PvP servers, which has led to several other problems such as bad open world situations, imbalance in Illum etc...

 

We just want a response, no matter what that response is. But despite the overwhelming number of threads like this one, all we hear is bittersweet silence.

 

Are these problems exclusive to PvP?

Nope. This will effect raiding, questing and anything that involves using your abilities. Make no mistake about it, you are at a disadvantage the other side of the population does not have. Not to mention the story and polish issues that cannot be "measured" or proven conclusively. We can only look at the overwhelming trends.

 

Following is the list of all the discovered problems.

Non class specific

 

-Turrets in Alderaan fire faster for Sith then they do for the republic.

Video proof

 

Go into a match yourself, its plain as day. When the sith turn a control point it instantly fires shaving shields off the republic. It takes the republic turrets a really long time to graphically turn towards the ship and fire. But for some reason, non neutral turrets being turned from Rep to Sith still instantly start ticking points away even though graphically they have to turn and fire.

So for some reason, the republic animation makes republic lose time towards shooting the enemy ship, but sith guns fire instantly.

 

-Purple Lightsabers are easier for sith to obtain.

 

Purple lightsabers according to the Devs themselves are suppossed to be the hardest to obtain. They have even commented in threads about this subject. Yet all a sith has to do is get to level 50 and buy a PvP lightsaber and the crystal within is purple. So the most coveted light saber color by fans, and from the word of the devs themselves the "rarest" is insanely difficult for a republic play to gain, but so simple for a sith to gain.

 

-Sith Story lines are better/more polished

 

Granted this may be "opinion" but the amount of people who have this opinion is overwhelming.

 

Class Differences

 

Smuggler/ Imperial Agent

 

-Smuggler Dirty Kick roots the smuggler in place when it is used, the Imperial Agent mirror Debilitate does not root you in place making it more versatile in PvP which requires mobility.

Running and jumping does not fix this issue, you still get rooted mid air and fall to the ground, you do not use RL physics and travel through the opponent. Not that it matters, one class shouldnt need to use work arounds to be equal with their mirror.

 

-The smuggler Sab Charge has a very long animation and travel time to get onto the opponent where the IA explosive probe drops down instantly. This allows for quicker and more controlled burst from the IA, as well as tying up less time into an animation that could be used doing other things.

 

The animation of back blast takes much longer to happen, which much like Sab charge ties the smuggler up in an animation, which also means the damage is not applied as quickly giving the opponent more time to react, or use a heal or defensive cooldown. The IA version is a very quick and instant knife stab.

 

Bounty Hunter/Trooper

 

-Bounty hunters have more resource then troopers do. The math shows that due to the amount of heat and the cost of abilities shows that bounty hunters technically have more resource. What this means is, if you converted BH heat to the troopers Ammo, the BH would have more actual Ammo then a trooper when they are both full.

 

-Death from Above (BH) applies its damage faster then Mortar Volley.

This make Mortar volley "miss" alot in PvP because people arent where they were standing when you started, or they see the blue circle on the ground and run out of the way since they know they have plenty of time to do just that. Once you see the red circle as Republic, you are already taking damage.

This also affects PvE when fighting things that move who often get out of the way of mortar volley, or are dead from group mates before mortar volley ever even ticked.

 

Video proof exists of this, but I seem to have lost the link.

 

-The trooper full auto is inferior to the bounty hunters unload. Here is why.

 

Full Auto loses casting time if you're hit during the channel, Unload doesn't. If you're hit even once, you'll do one less tick of damage, which is a significant hit to the overall damage the ability does.

 

It's a pretty huge difference IMO, and actually makes FA much less useful in PVE as well (as long as you're taking any damage at all).

 

-Tracer Missile Spam> Gravity Round spam. This is mainly due to the above heat VS ammo issue, but it bears being mentioned on its own because of the enormous imbalance of BHs spamming tracer missile mindlessly in PvP and taking down opponents using one ability that does massive damage, has auto facing and is viable to be spammed because of the larger resource pool BHs have.

 

Inquisitor and Consular

 

-Project has a travel time to do damage to its target where Shock does not.

 

Video Proof

 

Some will argue this gives the Consular an advantage. It doesnt. In several instances where you want on demand damage, its simply inferior. Trying to kill someone before crossing the goal in huttball, killing someone casting a heal, killing someone on the run trying to gain line of sight etc... Instant on demand damage will always win.

That being said, it doesnt matter if both abilities become like shock, or both become like project, they are supposed to be the same and they are not,

 

-Not confirmed, but many people believe it. Electrocute seems to ignore resolve, and possibly line of sight. I cannot continue to speak on this as we have no "solid" evidence other then players giving personal accounts. Myself being one of them. I know Electrocute has stunned me when my resolve bar was full and color changed.

 

Essentially, this skill lands no matter what, Force stun doesnt appear to act this way.

 

-The 31 point Corruption Sorc ability "Revivification" get the upfront heal that the sage's "salvation" has. Currently revivification only gets the hot effect and not the 1k-1.5k initial aoe heal.

 

Knight and Warrior

 

-Jedi Knight Bladestorm requires an animation before applying its damage. The Sith Warrior Scream applies instantly.

 

Both charges from both classes do not require facing, people were saying the JK did and the SW did not, I logged in a JK myself and tested it, the JK did not have to face a target to charge it.

 

 

 

 

 

Some Choice quotes from players to show this is not just me

 

Every one of these bugs is in favor of empire. Considering the population imbalance, can we get some priority on getting these fixed?

 

I unsubbed after reading this, does every dev have a red sabre up their ***?

 

This many issues for only one faction does not happen by mistake...

 

Dont forget they spent WAY more time making their nice storylines and quests. Spent WAY more time making actually decent looking tier gear. etc

 

 

I see the DEVS have decided to still remain silent on this matter ...

 

SO SAD

 

 

i mean did a few devs that decided they were going to play SITH / Empire really think they were smarter than the entire player base and we would never figure out all these small empire advantages all through out the "MIRROR ABILITIES" ( sure they are mirrors what a joke ) that add up ...

 

 

I am really not sure if in the next 10 days I will be around with these GLARING issues and their lack of communication on them.

 

It's as if they say "Maybe if we say nothing the issue will just go away" well to an extent that may be true but along with the issue a good portion of the playerbase may follow.

 

When people had concerns I always stuck up for Bioware and said "Man they are an amazing company they wont let crap slide"...to all of those I said it to, I apologize I apparently out right lied.

 

The devs are acting like the kid that was caught with his hand in the cookie jar. Its almost light these differences were intentional and they are now guiltily slinking away because they were caught.

 

There are blatant differences, and a lot of them. If there were one or two, fine- but there are tons.

 

We need an explanation for how this happened and also a quick fix to make them actual mirrors.

 

These are all documented imbalances and "strangly" enough all favor the Imps. Roll that into the fact that Imps MASSIVELY outnumber Republics on pvp servers and you get a very bad combination.

 

FIX THIS NOW BW.

 

I've always hated how Devs fail to acknowledge some problems and that just keeps to frustrate the player-base because they feel they are not being heard.

 

I always expected problems to exist, but in a game where classes are meant to be mirrors, I certainly would not have thought we see so many problems which favour the Imp.

 

Every one of these bugs is in favor of empire. Considering the population imbalance, can we get some priority on getting these fixed?

 

+1 "mirrors" aren't mirrors.. Should really be fixed this is ridiculous.

 

It is only more interesting if you are on the side who's "diversity" gives them a serious advantage across the board. And consistently the imperial classes have this.

 

bump, would like to see the developer's excuse for this

Edited January 17, 2012 by Kellindell

[Kellindell]

To much potential human and computer error present in your "test" to make it conclusive.

 

Several people have shown through videos it does not instantly apply its damage, it is not equivocal to the Mirror classes mirror ability shock.

 

Also, its great that you win, but that has no bearing on this topic what so ever. It doesnt make any of these issues go away or not exist.

 

 

Full disclosure - I don't subscribe fully to the argument presented by the OP and his supporters. I play Republic side, I play PvP with 3 other skilled guild members, and we almost never lose. I'm okay with so-called "mirror classes" having imbalances, because at the end of the day, PvP is about using the tools you have and the skill you've acquired to win the contest at all costs.

 

That said, I decided to research the Project animation complaint since there seems to be lots of people stating opinions as facts. I, a 50 Shadow, dueled a 50 Sage in my guild. We were both in vent at the time. We started by draining health to low levels. After a few accidental crit deaths, we managed to get to a place where I was at 455 health and the Sage was at 418 health.

 

The plan was this: I would cast project - which would assuredly kill the Sage. The Sage would wait until he saw the Project animation, and then hit his Force Stun.

 

The results were somewhat enigmatic. The game credited me with the duel victory - however, the Force Stun DID hit me and we both ended up at depleted health.

 

My conclusion from this - which is certainly conjecture - is that there is a discrepancy between server-side and client-side with Project. Clearly, the server recognizes my Project as happening first and being instant (hence, why I won the duel). However, the client still allowed the losing player (that the server considers dead and defeated) to attack me.

 

Now, I do not have a 50 Sorcerer yet, so I cannot run a similar test on Imperial side. My guess however would be that with the Shock animation, the opposing player would not have the reaction time to fire off an ability before death.

 

As a result, it seems to me that both sides of this particular debate are correct: Project damage is indeed instant, but the animation on the client does allow a window for the opposition to respond. This would not seem to effect Imperial players as it does Republic players.

 

And all that said, I don't see a single problem with it.

[Kellindell]

Ok so I redid the entire OP under some suggestion. Soon this will hit its cap and either be locked or the forums will auto create a new thread for me. I didnt expect this thread to get so large or get such overwhelming support, so I figured id follow the advice given and make it look more "professional".

 

Please reread the OP, and let me know if I forgot to add any existing issues.

[VinnieDaMac]

Nope... how else will their hide their pro-Empire bias?

[Fdzzaigl]

 

 

A video someone made of "Death from Above" vs "Mortar Volley".

 

It's done on the fleet of each side, so no damage on mob comparison as in the project video. But still, the difference is obvious, as "Mortar Volley" only starts to fire its first projectile about 1.5s into the channel, with the last projectile firing after the cast time has finished.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Fdzzaigl

[Kellindell]

 

A video someone made of "Death from Above" vs "Mortar Volley".

 

It's done on the fleet of each side, so no damage on mob comparison as in the project video. But still, the difference is obvious, as "Mortar Volley" only starts to fire its first projectile about 1.5s into the channel, with the last projectile firing after the cast time has finished.

 

Not the best video since he is just doing it to the air, but it does showcase it a little bit, better then nothing.

[Chiricahua]

I agree with this down to the 1/100 second. Only to dispense with all the nerf calls. Actual mirrors would end the debate, and place all the threads in the archives.

[MonsAlpha]

Inquisitor and Consular

 

-Project has a travel time to do damage to its target where Shock does not.

 

Video Proof

 

Some will argue this gives the Consular an advantage. It doesnt. In several instances where you want on demand damage, its simply inferior. Trying to kill someone before crossing the goal in huttball, killing someone casting a heal, killing someone on the run trying to gain line of sight etc... Instant on demand damage will always win.

That being said, it doesnt matter if both abilities become like shock, or both become like project, they are supposed to be the same and they are not,

 

-Not confirmed, but many people believe it. Electrocute seems to ignore resolve, and possibly line of sight. I cannot continue to speak on this as we have no "solid" evidence other then players giving personal accounts. Myself being one of them. I know Electrocute has stunned me when my resolve bar was full and color changed.

 

Essentially, this skill lands no matter what, Force stun doesnt appear to act this way.

 

-The 31 point Corruption Sorc ability "Revivification" get the upfront heal that the sage's "salvation" has. Currently revivification only gets the hot effect and not the 1k-1.5k initial aoe heal.

 

 

Yes, yes, yes, could not agree more as I've stated numerous times, yes. The only thing to get around the project delay is to spec into balance as a sage giving you the chance to throw two rocks instead of one. The second rock will do damage INSTANTLY before the animation finishes and it reaches the target. Also, lightning = cooler than pebbles.

[Kellindell]

I agree with this down to the 1/100 second. Only to dispense with all the nerf calls. Actual mirrors would end the debate, and place all the threads in the archives.

 

Good point. Fixing this would clear up the forums of one huge overly discussed topic. Never even thought about that =)

[Kellindell]

So today in huttball I noticed empire only has to touch the bar to score, where as I had to complete cross over it to the other side.

 

Anyone else notice this? If anyone can confirm it I can add it to the list.

[Uzuki]

I only have one thing to say on this. Boring. I won't ever take away diversity for the sake of a little balance. Variety is more enjoyable.

[Sorenia]

I only have one thing to say on this. Boring. I won't ever take away diversity for the sake of a little balance. Variety is more enjoyable.

 

What? The combat system doesn't need to be tied to animations. You won't lose any "variety" if abilities apply NUMBERS at the same time.

[Kellindell]

I only have one thing to say on this. Boring. I won't ever take away diversity for the sake of a little balance. Variety is more enjoyable.

 

Translation.

 

I play Sith and only read half this post.

[CommandoPower]

I think most people are at where you are about this. No communication.

 

I understand games will have issues, despite how glaring they are. And in this case how purposeful they appear.

 

But I can accept those problems, especially in a game less then a month old. Im not one of those "FIX THIS OR I QUIT" people.

 

But what will make me, and im assuming several players, leave is not hearing a peep from the Devs about this stuff. Ive played games where that kind of silence existed in the beginning, and my personal experience is that if its this way in the beginning it will always be this way so why bother sitting around waiting and hoping they will eventually say or do something?

 

Honestly they lose either way. If they do say things they get roasted every which way they turn, misstep or not. If they don't say things they do not care and are out of touch with the community.

 

There is no winning on the forums for devs and mods when you have minimum 5 people willing to jump down your throat if you happened to mention in an off topic thread that you liked collecting stamps....because you should be spending that time responding to what THEY want.

 

 

A few devs/mods in other games do it, but undeniably it is a risky venture and you'll be hung out to dry no matter what you do.

 

Were you ok with Bright Wizards in Warhammer as well? That pretty much killed the game you know.

 

Bright Wizards were fine, their mechanic was GENIUS back when you could easily vape YOURSELF. AOE in general was out of whack, and it wasn't just bright wizards, they just did the most damage and so were the most noticed.

[TheSecondKira]

@Kellindell good job on the repost.

 

Jesus how many pages will it take to get a response from the devs I would take anything at this point even a load of marketing spiel to shut us up lol.