Aperion KOTOR remastered hits final milestone

[Andryah]

Everything you said is basically right, but you also didn't contradict anything I said. Fair use is a defense to copyright infringement, and courts apply a factored test to determine whether it applies, so there is a lot of room for interpretation. By its nature, such a case will almost always favor the IP owner. I was just correcting Andryah's assertion that you can "NEVER" use someone else's IP. I also pointed out that this mod almost certainly wouldn't fall under fair use.

 

There is no interpretation until a dispute reaches court. Until then.. the fair use boundaries are defined by the IP owner (in this case a company with a strong IP legal team in place, precisely because of this sort of thing) .. not the attempted user and most certainly not the common public from the safety of their arm chairs. There is a reason IP law is one of the more important legal aspects of any corporations legal team. One of my close friends practices IP law for Western Digital and while much of what he is focused on is company to company.... he has shared some amazing stories about attempts to circumvent IP law on WD products and services.

 

Fair use in the context of IP in the gaming segment of the market tends to follow "pre-formatted kit" produced by the IP owner to both allow easy fair use AND set firm boundaries on what the fair use limits are. Example: fan kits that are produced by gaming studios so fans can setup their own fan web sites for a game that contains and uses IP (which virtually all games do).

 

Sure... Poem could take this to court and try the "fair use" approach... but you know what... the fact that they used first, and never asked is going to make them look like "poachers", not "fair users". I very much doubt Poem would prevail.. and apparently Poem knows this too (meaning they have already consulted with an attorney on the letter and compliance to it).

 

Poems only recourse here is to fall on their sword, admit their ignorance or disregard, and try to negotiate a fair use contract (but I can tell you it will come with a boatload of restrictions to insure Poem does not take it from there and creep further into IP use without permisison). To be honest....I'm not even sure Poem is up to the task of negotiating permission to use IP, and they certainly have not demonstrated it so far.

 

This whole IP and copyright issue is one of the main resource drains on companies because there are so many violators of use. And it is mostly consumer negligence or disregard that causes it. This is why web sites like youtube has to do so many stomps on peoples videos... because they are reported as infringing on the IP rights of another.

Edited October 12, 2018 by Andryah

[JediMasterAlex]

There is no interpretation until a dispute reaches court. Until then.. the fair use boundaries are defined by the IP owner (in this case a company with a strong IP legal team in place, precisely because of this sort of thing) .. not the attempted user and most certainly not the common public from the safety of their arm chairs. There is a reason IP law is one of the more important legal aspects of any corporations legal team. One of my close friends practices IP law for Western Digital and while much of what he is focused on is company to company.... he has shared some amazing stories about attempts to circumvent IP law on WD products and services.

 

Fair use in the context of IP in the gaming segment of the market tends to follow "pre-formatted kit" produced by the IP owner to both allow easy fair use AND set firm boundaries on what the fair use limits are. Example: fan kits that are produced by gaming studios so fans can setup their own fan web sites for a game that contains and uses IP (which virtually all games do).

 

Sure... Poem could take this to court and try the "fair use" approach... but you know what... the fact that they used first, and never asked is going to make them look like "poachers", not "fair users". I very much doubt Poem would prevail.. and apparently Poem knows this too (meaning they have already consulted with an attorney on the letter and compliance to it).

 

Poems only recourse here is to fall on their sword, admit their ignorance or disregard, and try to negotiate a fair use contract (but I can tell you it will come with a boatload of restrictions to insure Poem does not take it from there and creep further into IP use without permisison). To be honest....I'm not even sure Poem is up to the task of negotiating permission to use IP, and they certainly have not demonstrated it so far.

 

This whole IP and copyright issue is one of the main resource drains on companies because there are so many violators of use. And it is mostly consumer negligence or disregard that causes it. This is why web sites like youtube has to do so many stomps on peoples videos... because they are reported as infringing on the IP rights of another.

 

I'm not sure what your intent is when you put fair use in quotation marks. Do you think it's not a legitimate legal concept? Most first year law students learn about it in Property, as it's a well known part of copyright law. Your discussion of fan kits has nothing to do with fair use, that's just an agreement for others to use their IP.

 

Also, neither of the people who have discussed fair use, including me, have advocated that the mod creator use it as a defense. I actually said twice, including in the part you quoted, that this mod would almost certainly not fall under fair use (if that phrasing confuses you, fair use would not protect the mod's copyright infringement).

Edited October 12, 2018 by JediMasterAlex

[Darth_Advent]

We aren't naive about the law. We're actually quite well informed and as a result aren't accepting the line being fed to us by IP holders and their white knights anymore. Their arguments are known and refutable. The favortism enjoyed by most IP holders has less to do with the letter and intent of the law than it does with the power of legal talent and financial resources of the plaintiffs to enforce their will. Shills need to stop wasting their time.

[Andryah]

I'm not sure what your intent is when you put fair use in quotation marks. Do you think it's not a legitimate legal concept? Most first year law students learn about it in Property, as it's a well known part of copyright law. Your discussion of fan kits has nothing to do with fair use, that's just an agreement for others to use their IP.

 

Also, neither of the people who have discussed fair use, including me, have advocated that the mod creator use it as a defense. I actually said twice, including in the part you quoted, that this mod would almost certainly not fall under fair use (if that phrasing confuses you, fair use would not protect the mod's copyright infringement).

 

I put "fair use" in quotes because it is being passed around as an "implied defense" for what Poem did. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

The fact is most IP holders do have established policies on IP use, including fair use definitions. All you have to do is reach out the IP owner and ask them.. FIRST. From there.. you can establish if there is a reasonable pathway to use that meets both parties needs.

 

Fan kits are in fact a fair use kit .. which simplifies and standardizes some of the most common fair use scenarios on the internet. Rather then negotiate with 10,000 different parties who want to set up a fan site using IP.... the kit forms a standard framework and license agreement which saves everyone (both the user and the owner) time and potential mistakes in supporting fans on the internet.

Edited October 12, 2018 by Andryah

[Andryah]

We aren't naive about the law. We're actually quite well informed and as a result aren't accepting the line being fed to us by IP holders and their white knights anymore. Their arguments are known and refutable. The favortism enjoyed by most IP holders has less to do with the letter and intent of the law than it does with the power of legal talent and financial resources of the plaintiffs to enforce their will. Shills need to stop wasting their time.

 

Ah yes.. the always popular use pejoratives to try to stop a point of view....

 

So.. basically.. you just thumb your nose at the law, via online rhetoric, because you don't like (or respect) that most countries have strong IP laws that favor the IP owner. You are basically condoning theft. Cute. Not very mature... but cute. If IP theft was not such a long running and serious issue... there would not be a need for strong laws that favor the IP owner. In the internet era.. this who mess spiraled out of control through piracy of music.... and moved on from there to anything and everything. In some ways, the internet and in particular social media encourage lawlessness of behaviors.

 

If the parties wanting to use IP would consistently sit down and negotiate first and gain consent.. rather then take and then try to feign ignorance later on or try to stir up tribal outbursts from supporters .... there would not need to be laws that strongly favor the IP owner and courts that strongly enforce said laws in court when lititaged.

 

I get the very tribal chant of "the establishment is always stomping on what the individual wants to do"... but when it is in the context of supporting someone or some company for their acts of IP misuse... it loses all real credibility. Most nations operate under formal rule of law... but clearly on the internet echo chamber.... steal early and steal often is the meme of choice.

 

People that do not like or respect IP law should just move to one of the Asian countries where routine theft of IP is considered normal practice still at this point in time.

Edited October 12, 2018 by Andryah

[Darth_Advent]

Ah yes.. the always popular use pejoratives to try to stop a point of view....

Ah yes... the always popular use emojis to hide one's buttmad and tears

So.. basically.. you just thumb your nose at the law, via online rhetoric

Oh it's more than mere rhetoric. A modicum of research and some relatively shallow networking has kept me from feeding the beast at the expense of worthy creators for years going now. Research just published by International Federation of the Phonographic Industry approximated that 38% of consumers are still file-sharing music despite streaming options. These aren't just entitled gamer kiddies but even Boomers sick of paying for the same damn song 50 times over and over again while the bands and artists that made the music get pennies or nothing.

because you don't like (or respect) that most countries have strong IP laws that favor the IP owner.

I also don't like or respect the political agenda the mainstream entertainment industry is forcing down my throat celebrating degeneracy and lambasting my nation, history, and race. I have principles just not values that involve bending over and spreading my cheeks for Hollywood or Silicon Valley. Perhaps when musicians stop jerking themselves off at concerts playing at Philosopher King I'll be more willing to pay their record labels $12.00 for a $2.00 CD so they can get some bread crumbs of the net to eat.

You are basically condoning theft.

Copying is not theft. Again, this is a well refuted lark of a hysterical argument. https://questioncopyright.org/about

Cute. Not very mature... but cute.

That what your wife's boyfriend says about your package?

If IP theft was not such a long running and serious issue... there would not be a need for strong laws that favor the IP owner. In the internet era.. this who mess spiraled out of control through piracy of music.... and moved on from there to anything and everything. In some ways, the internet and in particular social media encourage lawlessness of behaviors.

IP is a joke and needs serious reform or abolition. Its present state is anti-liberty and a tenuously justifiable restriction on trade. This is not some odd fringe bugbear of internet nerds obsessively tooling over their Linux distros. Minor political parties have rallied around the issue in Europe. Economists and ethicists have published scholarly essays on the subject. Your "maturer than thou" tone is utterly feckless.

 

If the parties wanting to use IP would consistently sit down and negotiate first and gain consent.. rather then take and then try to feign ignorance later on or try to stir up tribal outbursts from supporters .... there would not need to be laws that strongly favor the IP owner and courts that strongly enforce said laws in court when lititaged.

Copyright has warped from making sure a creative can benefit from the brilliance of his mind to making sure Disney never had to compete with off-brand Steamboat Willy merchandise. Corporations exist that profit not from making new and worthy use of the IPs they own but by copyright trolling: Buying the rights just to sit on them and sue violators for a gain. Reptilian lawyers deliberately muddy the waters between IP concepts like copyright and trademark to intimidate non-violators into compliance with their demands. It isn't something that demands the utmost deference of critically thinking people.

 

I get the very tribal chant of "the establishment is always stomping on what the individual wants to do"... but when it is in the context of supporting someone or some company for their acts of IP misuse... it loses all real credibility.

Only with people who don't recognize the absurd state of IP and its enforcement, and we're not interested in the approval of bootlicks.

Most nations operate under formal rule of law... but clearly on the internet echo chamber.... steal early and steal often is the meme of choice.

Copying is not theft. Modification is not theft. Again, these are topics explored outside of the internet geek caricature you're relying on.

 

People that do not like or respect IP law should just move to one of the Asian countries where routine theft of IP is considered normal practice still at this point in time.

Or we could demand sane and sensible reform where governments still have some facade of accountability.

[Andryah]

Oh it's more than mere rhetoric. A modicum of research and some relatively shallow networking has kept me from feeding the beast at the expense of worthy creators for years going now. Research just published by International Federation of the Phonographic Industry approximated that 38% of consumers are still file-sharing music despite streaming options. These aren't just entitled gamer kiddies but even Boomers sick of paying for the same damn song 50 times over and over again while the bands and artists that made the music get pennies or nothing.

 

Got it.. so you are universal in your support of IP and copyright theft. But you just exemplified why there are such strong IP laws and enforcement of said laws.

 

Nothing further to discuss with you.. because it is clear from your comments that you believe the consumer is entitled to anything they can manage to steal from someone else... particularly if it is something soft (ie: music, photos, etc) rather then something tangible like your car.

Edited October 12, 2018 by Andryah

[DzastinBiberi]

Back in early 2016, we learned that a small indie team was working on remaking BioWare’s beloved Star Wars classic, Knights of the Old Republic. The remake was set to be called ‘Apeiron’ and would see the game return in Unreal Engine 4 with completely overhauled graphics. Character models, planets and more had been completed but it looks like Lucasfilm’s lawyers finally caught up, shutting down the project.

 

The Apeiron KOTOR remake was being worked on by Poem Studios, a small team born from working on this project. The team would host weekly Twitch streams of development progress and regularly put out YouTube videos to show off small parts of the game in action. Earlier this week, Poem Studios head, Taylor Trotter, announced that he had received a cease and desist letter from Lucasfilm, and as a result, the project will go no further.

 

 

 

Writing on the Apeiron Discord server, Trotter told fans: “It’s with a great sadness that I’m posting today; I recently received a letter from Lucasfilm instructing Poem to end production on Apeiron. After a few days, I’ve exhausted my options to keep it afloat; we knew this day was a possibility. I’m sorry and may the force be with you”.

[MikeCobalt]

This is a letdown for sure. Considering all the other KOTOR mods out there so far that some have/still use this the grandest ofcourse with a Modern engine would've been great. Apeiron had sparked many to buy original copies so they could play this and now the let down by a company (Lucasfilm) that many held in such high reverence for decades (Corruption, Money, Pettiness). I sent messages to LucasFilm..No reply, no reply to anybody I've heard. Sometimes the companies work together to sort out the business aspects, but some companies don't

Actually, on this note I think I'll REplay KOTOR again soon, always fun.

Edited October 13, 2018 by MikeCobalt