Aperion KOTOR remastered hits final milestone

[ImmortalLowlife]

The one where Lucasfilm steps in and makes em shut it down. God forbid they actually give players what they want! Now they're canning FREE MODS FOR A GAME I'VE ALREADY BOUGHT!

[Andryah]

Sorry.. no sympathy for people who poach and use another parties IP. Period.. full stop.

 

They were crazy to try to use unlicensed IP to begin with. This is exactly what happens when you try to do so... you get a cease and desist.

 

Next time... license the use of the IP FIRST. If you cannot gain a license... that should be a clear statement to stop pursuing what you are pursuing.

Edited October 11, 2018 by Andryah

[Floredon]

Not a surprise. He was doing it for publicity anyway and he succeeded.

[Andryah]

Not a surprise. He was doing it for publicity anyway and he succeeded.

 

Then he is lucky he was not sued into dust, rather then just told to stop. If he is sincere about wanting to do this for SW and KOTOR fans.... then sit down like an adult and negotiate a resolution with the IP owner and get written permission to proceed... if they will even agree to let it proceed. SW IP is a valuable asset to Disney and as such they are actually obligated to protect it from unauthorized use, without exception. It does not however mean that you cannot negotiate a resolution with them that lets you move forward.. though having gone the pirate route first.. I would say the outlook is not a good one.

 

Personally, I would not want the publicity attached to poaching another parties IP.

 

The twitter responses on that linked page truly show what pirate minds so many gamers actually have.

 

Disney has greenlighted other fan based endeavors that are layered on SW IP.. so this is not an issue of the big bad company squashing the little guy.. this is the little guy thinking he can pirate IP without pushback just because what he is offering is free and for fans. Stupid dumb move by Poem.

Edited October 11, 2018 by Andryah

[Floredon]

Then he is lucky he was not sued into dust, rather then just told to stop. If he is sincere about wanting to do this for SW and KOTOR fans.... then sit down like an adult and negotiate a resolution with the IP owner and get written permission to proceed... if they will even agree to let it proceed. SW IP is a valuable asset to Disney and as such they are actually obligated to protect it from unauthorized use.

 

Personally, I would not want the publicity attached to poaching another parties IP.

 

The twitter responses on that linked page truly show what pirate minds so many gamers actually have.

I agree with your sentiment, which is why I never had any hopes for his project. It is very clear what he was trying to do, especially with the attitude he had towards people interested in the project. That is all I will say, but I could say more.

[Raansu]

Sorry.. no sympathy for people who poach and use another parties IP. Period.. full stop.

 

They were crazy to try to use unlicensed IP to begin with. This is exactly what happens when you try to do so... you get a cease and desist.

 

Next time... license the use of the IP FIRST. If you cannot gain a license... that should be a clear statement to stop pursuing what you are pursuing.

 

To poach something would require to make money of it. These projects are distributed free as mods. That's not poaching, its just being a fan.

[ImmortalLowlife]

To poach something would require to make money of it. These projects are distributed free as mods. That's not poaching, its just being a fan.

 

Exactly.... it's no different from any other mod. You have to already own the game to use it, and it was gonna be free.

 

Lucasfilm/Disney f.o.s. for this one.

[Mournblood]

God forbid they follow the very well established law regarding intellectual properties and copyright infringement. If he was actually sincere about his claims, he would have done this legally, which even if Disney had agreed to that, would have required him to pay a licensing fee, and the game wouldn't have been free.

 

The only exception I'm aware of where Disney allows someone to use their IP without paying a licensing fee is the 501st Legion, which is a non-profit organization of Star Wars enthusiasts that do Star Wars themed volunteer and charity work. But Disney is still getting something out of the deal - a positive image that promotes the brand.

[Andryah]

To poach something would require to make money of it. These projects are distributed free as mods. That's not poaching, its just being a fan.

 

You are NEVER legally allowed to use someone elses IP in any way, for any reason.. period. You may not like that.. but it happens to be the law.

 

Doing something and releasing it free while using someone elses IP without their written permission is still IP theft.

 

All these people needed to do was to sit down and discuss and gain acceptance from Disney up front, in writing and they would be good to go. OR.. they may have simply been told no. Instead of asking permission.. they poached (used valued IP without license or permission). In my view.. they knew they were breaking long standing IP law, or were just ignorant (but ignorance of a law is not a n excuse a court would accept) and that means willful violation of IP law.... so they are actually lucky they are not getting sued over this.

 

I would imagine as word spread of this... Poem Studios will essentially be defunct as nobody will trust them... except maybe fellow IP pirates.

Edited October 12, 2018 by Andryah

[Andryah]

God forbid they follow the very well established law regarding intellectual properties and copyright infringement. If he was actually sincere about his claims, he would have done this legally, which even if Disney had agreed to that, would have required him to pay a licensing fee, and the game wouldn't have been free.

 

Exactly, though Disney may have waived a license fee for something done for fans at no charge .... but I'm sure they would have had a lot of fine print restrictions that Poem would have had to agree to in a legal license agreement signed by both parties. Then again.. Disney could have just flat out refused.. and what to you want to bet that Poem was doing this illegally because they were afraid the answer would be NO.

 

Reading the cease and desist letter from the lawyers... it's pretty clear they are in no mood to negotiate any IP use with Poem now. This effectively means Poem is the party that screwed over the fans here, by deliberately breaking the law rather then doing things right to begin with. Disney is simply protecting their IP, as they should. But all the flamers over on the twitter account are all condemning Disney This actually confirms a lot of suspicions about SW fans and their irrationality.

Edited October 12, 2018 by Andryah

[Raansu]

Exactly, though Disney may have waived a license fee for something done for fans at no charge .... but I'm sure they would have had a lot of fine print restrictions that Poem would have had to agree to in a legal license agreement signed by both parties. Then again.. Disney could have just flat out refused.. and what to you want to bet that Poem was doing this illegally because they were afraid the answer would be NO.

 

Reading the cease and desist letter from the lawyers... it's pretty clear they are in no mood to negotiate any IP use with Poem now. This effectively means Poem is the party that screwed over the fans here, by deliberately breaking the law rather then doing things right to begin with. Disney is simply protecting their IP, as they should. But all the flamers over on the twitter account are all condemning Disney This actually confirms a lot of suspicions about SW fans and their irrationality.

 

I mean, most IP laws are dumb and Disney should be condemned for it. Mod community is nothing but a positive in gaming.

[Andryah]

I mean, most IP laws are dumb and Disney should be condemned for it. Mod community is nothing but a positive in gaming.

 

A) IP laws are not dumb... they exist for a reason ---> because of people who seem to think it is OK to take anything they want from someone else without their permission. If IP misuse and theft were not a problem over the years.. we would not need laws to protect from the misuse or theft.

 

B) Disney should not protect their Intellectual Property? ... is that what you just said??

 

C) All Poem Studios had to do was ask for permission and gain permission in writing FIRST, rather then just outright violating another parties intellectual property rights. If it was indeed as altruistic as some of you want to portray it... then I am sure they would have found a way to succeed in getting written permission BEFORE using said IP. Instead.. they are now in the spotlight as thieves and told to cease and desist by the IP owner.

 

An IP owner would be the first to tell you that they are required to enforce protections of their IP no matter how small or trivial the issue may appear to be on the surface. Why? Because if you let one party take your IP without your permission (this is not about compensation... it could be a free exchange by permission), then you just set precedent that you do not enforce your IP ownership rights and that opens the door for others to take your IP as well and argue that you are not protecting your IP anyway.. by citing the precedent set by turning a blind eye in one case and not in another. THIS is precisely why any IP owner that enters into an altruistic and royalty free agreement over their IP with another party will still want a contract in writing that specifically stipulates the use restrictions and any other considerations in the care and handling of the IP. In fact... the general assumption of legal council on a situation like the one presented in this thread is that it may be a trap... to see if you will fail to enforce.. and as such for all they know Poem is actually acting as a stooge for some other party that wants to push into misuse of SW IP and needs a precedent to try to use as a veil of excuse. I'm not saying that is the case here.. only that the legal council has seen it all and would be suspicious and take a strong hand (such as they did here).

Edited October 12, 2018 by Andryah

[Raansu]

An IP owner would be the first to tell you that they are required to enforce protections of their IP no matter how small or trivial the issue may appear to be on the surface. Why? Because if you let one party take your IP without your permission (this is not about compensation... it could be a free exchange by permission), then you just set precedent that you do not enforce your IP ownership rights and that opens the door for others to take your IP as well and argue that you are not protecting your IP anyway.. by siting the precedent set by turning a blind eye in one case and not in another. THIS is precisely why any IP owner that enters into an altruistic and royalty free agreement over their IP with another party will still want a contract in writing that specifically stipulates the use restrictions and any other considerations in the care and handling of the IP.

 

Citing*

 

And yes, that entire aspect is why IP laws are dumb.

[Andryah]

And yes, that entire aspect is why IP laws are dumb.

 

You can say it until your face turns blue.. but that does not make it fact... nor will any court agree with you. You can have any opinion you like of course.. but when it's publicly shared and completely specious and without real foundation... don't be surprised when you get pushback. What is dumb is people thinking they can just take anything they want without asking the owner first.

 

Tell you what... go infringe on someone's legal ownership of IP get hauled into court... and use the "dumb" argument with the court and see how that works out for you. go on... walk your talk.

Edited October 12, 2018 by Andryah

[FlameYOL]

It was always a possibility it would get shut down but I'm very sad over it, the last few updates got me excited, it was looking to be really promising.

[JediMasterAlex]

Then he is lucky he was not sued into dust

 

You cannot successfully sue someone for money if you cannot prove any damages. They could sue for an injunction if he ignores the letter, but they wouldn't get any money from him.

 

You are NEVER legally allowed to use someone elses IP in any way, for any reason.. period. You may not like that.. but it happens to be the law.

 

That is not the law. An important exception to copyright infringement is fair use, which is what legally allows parodies to exist without permission. As long as you don't use the copyrighted work in its entirety, and you aren't making money from it, there are various legal ways to use others' IP. Unfortunately, this mod almost certainly would not fall under fair use for other reasons I could get into if you're interested.

[Darth_Advent]

The "pirate mindset" is infinitely more preferable and sympathetic to the corporate cuck mentality.

[Ardrossan]

It was always a possibility it would get shut down but I'm very sad over it, the last few updates got me excited, it was looking to be really promising.

 

Me too.

[DarthEnrique]

What is funny to me is all this was was a mod that updated the graphics of already released content and restored cut content that is already programmed into the game that modders released years ago for TSLRP that are still available even now and now all of a sudden because they were giving the game a graphics modification (you still needed to have the original game to even use the mod and there were mods that updated the graphic and fixed bugs for the XP version) and now all of a it isn’t okay even though the original mods that restored content for both KOTOR games is still available? This makes no sense! They didn’t lose money when modders did this people had to buy thr game and install it before rhey could even use the mods, they had already gotten the money for the game. What they lose out on? Nothing. So people restord content to the game whoop-di-do. Was it also illegal to go into the game files on my computer and enable the cheat code ability? Are they going to arrest me for modifying the game to enable it so I can use cheat codes? What a joke! Edited October 12, 2018 by DarthEnrique

[Mournblood]

An important exception to copyright infringement is fair use, which is what legally allows parodies to exist without permission. As long as you don't use the copyrighted work in its entirety, and you aren't making money from it, there are various legal ways to use others' IP.

 

This isn't true in practice. The ability to use Fair Use is extremely restricted and biased toward the IP owner. I've had personal experience with it over music I used in PvP videos I made for this game, but was cited for copyright infringement. I disputed the claim on the basis that the videos constituted a "transformative" fair use given that the songs were intended as a creative parody of the game activity occurring within the videos. The songs in question weren't monetized either (meaning, they weren't exercising their option to advertise), and of course I wasn't receiving any sort of financial gain from the videos. This was exactly what Fair Use is intended for, but ultimately I ended up losing the dispute and was forced to take down the videos. When I consulted an attorney about it, I was told that while I could certainly appeal the decision, the cost would be prohibitive and there was no guarantee I would win. Needless to say, it was obvious that Fair Use law is subject to interpretation, typically in favor of the IP owner.

[JattaGin]

I don't know what was/is going on in the background of this game, but as far as I see it, Lucasfilm would have gotten free income if this mod would have been released. Someone else did all the work for them and they would get additional sales of an old game. All they would have to do is sit back and count the extra money. On top of that, Apeiron is free marketing for Star Wars, like any other fan project.

 

I get the point of the letter, but between the lines I read that they are not generally negative about the project. I think it's really just about communicating with each other. Apeiron could be a great thing. Sit together and find a solution. Why wouldn't it become a win-win for both sides?

[DarthEnrique]

So an illegal server is going for Star Wars Galaxy Legends but this mod has to shut down? That’s hypocritical isn’t? Why don’t they shut down that illegal SWG Legends server that is up and running on an emulator?

[JediMasterAlex]

This isn't true in practice. The ability to use Fair Use is extremely restricted and biased toward the IP owner. I've had personal experience with it over music I used in PvP videos I made for this game, but was cited for copyright infringement. I disputed the claim on the basis that the videos constituted a "transformative" fair use given that the songs were intended as a creative parody of the game activity occurring within the videos. The songs in question weren't monetized either (meaning, they weren't exercising their option to advertise), and of course I wasn't receiving any sort of financial gain from the videos. This was exactly what Fair Use is intended for, but ultimately I ended up losing the dispute and was forced to take down the videos. When I consulted an attorney about it, I was told that while I could certainly appeal the decision, the cost would be prohibitive and there was no guarantee I would win. Needless to say, it was obvious that Fair Use law is subject to interpretation, typically in favor of the IP owner.

 

Everything you said is basically right, but you also didn't contradict anything I said. Fair use is a defense to copyright infringement, and courts apply a factored test to determine whether it applies, so there is a lot of room for interpretation. By its nature, such a case will almost always favor the IP owner. I was just correcting Andryah's assertion that you can "NEVER" use someone else's IP. I also pointed out that this mod almost certainly wouldn't fall under fair use.

[Ylliarus]

The "pirate mindset" is infinitely more preferable and sympathetic to the corporate cuck mentality.

 

In all honesty, I can see the truth in your statement. Then again, at the same time I also understand a company like Lucasfilm wants to protect its IP. Which is why I am baffled that a compromise couldn't be reached in this situation. Like all the material that has already been made, all of that has to be destroyed? What a waste...

 

It really wouldn't be too much in my opinion for Lucasfilm to reach out, sit down with the studio and settle on a deal that benefits both and harms none. If Lucasfilm/Disney slapped its name on the Apeiron KOTOR reboot, think of all the money they could make without any effort on their part as the bulk of the work is already done. It again is a huge waste of potential on Lucasfilm's part and it's starting to become frustrating to watch how they continue to miss opportunity after opportunity.

 

I hope that an accord can still be reached, because the work Poem Studio put in to this seriously shouldn't just be deleted. I get that it's important to protect one's IP but corporate greed could also be shoved aside for once.

Edited October 12, 2018 by Ylliarus

[Andryah]

...... Which is why I am baffled that a compromise couldn't be reached in this situation. Like all the material that has already been made, all of that has to be destroyed? What a waste...

 

It really wouldn't be too much in my opinion for Lucasfilm to reach out, sit down with the studio and settle on a deal that benefits both and harms none. If Lucasfilm/Disney slapped its name on the Apeiron KOTOR reboot, think of all the money they could make without any effort on their part as the bulk of the work is already done. It again is a huge waste of potential on Lucasfilm's part and it's starting to become frustrating to watch how they continue to miss opportunity after opportunity.

 

Of course a compromise could be reached, but the burden here is on the party wanting access to the IP... NOT the IP owner. Poem apparently NEVER asked permission, nor received permission, to use one of the more valuable IPs in the commercial market.

 

The letter (take time to actually read it please) makes it pretty clear that Lucasfilm/Disney discovered this unauthorized use of their IP sometime recently.... probably because of the public publicity about it on the internet. It is a standard position letter in cases like this. The burden is now on Poem to either comply, shut it all down, and remove all IP it used (AND.. any derivative work they performed using that IP must be destroyed). Basically, Poems website and the mod they are working on is derivative from the IP.. and that is also not allowed without permission.

 

Folks keep trying to heap this back on Lucasfilm/Disney when in reality the fault (and hence the ability to negotiate a resolution) rests with Poem reaching out and negotiating with the IP owner.

 

Honestly.. from reading all the posts here and the twitter feed from Aperion... it is clear that gamers are extremely naïve about the licensing, use, and even "fair use" in the context of IP. And NO... some gamer just waving away the rights of an IP owner is not a valid rationale, nor is pretexting about "fair use", and certainly not on the grounds of the IP owner being the bigger fish in this conflict.

 

There is a reason IP laws strongly favor the IP owner, as does litigation and enforcement. IP is the life blood of many products and services, and as such protecting it from piracy (which results in dilution of the IP in a manner not agreed to by the IP owner) is something IP owners take seriously.

 

Make no mistake.. what Poem did, under IP law, is piracy... regardless if online gamers feel it was "just doing it for the fans in a purely altruistic manner". That does not mean they cannot go back to Lucasfilm/Disney and try to remedy the cease and desist.. but by not asking permission first.. they made their ability to succeed in any follow-up negotiation much more difficult. The burden however rests with Poem in this case.

 

Seek permission, gain permission in writing, is the first rule of using someone elses IP, or trademarked/copyrighted ownership.

Edited October 12, 2018 by Andryah