Severith Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 I agree with everything you said but this line. I don't believe this opinion is unpopular It is very simple to test (on Iokath) that skanks are in fact already useless in nearly any possible way when they truly are fully dependant on their gear. The simple thing they need to do is fix bolster for people who are specced as tanks so that it doesn't boost their damage and crit beyond a certain number which is fairly lower than what DPS get. So skanks and tanks will have their damage capped at what their gear can give them, and that is truly not so much unless the enemy team are dumb enough to stack for AOEs (and honestly, if AOE is a viable measurement, I am surprised veng isn't considered OP). Tanks are already quite viable with the shielding changes, and skanks will be quite unviable as far as their DPS if bolster doesn't help them compete because it would be far less than what any DPS has, and as far as their defensiveness is concerned, because it is far less than what tanks have. If you made a tank, and your gear is low enough to get bolstered, it actually bolsters tank stats, and mastery/endure a bit. Bolster is basically kryptonite to skank tanks, because they end up with lowish tank and low dps stats. In order to actually skank, you have to be above bolster, so you can control the stats yourself. Bolster doesn't effect my 46% crit chance on my skank tank. Or any other stat. Nothing is getting bolstered, as you assert. It's gonna be the same with any other decent skank tank. (Side note: This leads into a perception issue. Every "workable" skank tank has to be well geared, or it isn't effective. So the average skank tank is better geared, with probably more pvp under their belt, then the average person queing for regs. So the complaints against skank tanking are always slanted.) I don't mean to be rude, but lets keep discussions based on facts. That means knowing how things work before complaining about how they work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafiknoll Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 If you made a tank, and your gear is low enough to get bolstered, it actually bolsters tank stats, and mastery/endure a bit. Bolster is basically kryptonite to skank tanks, because they end up with lowish tank and low dps stats. In order to actually skank, you have to be above bolster, so you can control the stats yourself. Bolster doesn't effect my 46% crit chance on my skank tank. Or any other stat. Nothing is getting bolstered, as you assert. It's gonna be the same with any other decent skank tank. (Side note: This leads into a perception issue. Every "workable" skank tank has to be well geared, or it isn't effective. So the average skank tank is better geared, with probably more pvp under their belt, then the average person queing for regs. So the complaints against skank tanking are always slanted.) I don't mean to be rude, but lets keep discussions based on facts. That means knowing how things work before complaining about how they work. IDK what is wrong with your tank, when I went skank my shield and absorption were increased by some percentage. These bolster effects exist when I use 248 gear as well because the game apparently sees that my shield and absorb are too low (because I don't have these stats in skank gear) and bolsters it. The result is that while the damaging stats for a skank tank with 248 gear are equal to what he can deal outside the warzone with the same gear and is not bolstered at all, the defensiveness is additionally increased as if he has a piece or two of tank gear. Maybe it isn't noticeable if your gear is 242 or below because in that case the bolster still seems "fair" but fully 248 geared and augmented skanks do benefit from a little too many extra stats in the fields their gear won't cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glower Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) IDK what is wrong with your tank, when I went skank my shield and absorption were increased by some percentage. These bolster effects exist when I use 248 gear as well because the game apparently sees that my shield and absorb are too low (because I don't have these stats in skank gear) and bolsters it. I do not think that the bolster works like this, it takes into account the stance (role) and looks at the stats that prevail over the others (separately for each slot or even mod) and boost them even more. Lesser stats will be boosted to a lesser degree. It does not give you anything "for free" at 248, unless it is main hand/off hand or not 248 gear... or a "bugged" slot (old relic trick for example). Edited October 16, 2018 by Glower Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafiknoll Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 I do not think that the bolster works like this, it takes into account the stance (role) and looks at the stats that prevail over the others (separately for each slot or even mod) and boost them even more. Lesser stats will be boosted to a lesser degree. It does not give you anything "for free" at 248, unless it is main hand/off hand or not 248 gear... or a "bugged" slot (old relic trick for example). I don't know. I only know that I have more than the base shield and absorb when I use my genuine DPS gear from my alt. It is nearly fully 248 with a few 246 and the augs are 236 or 240... Is it possible one of these "bolster bugs" caused when using DPS mods in a shield? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Severith Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 IDK what is wrong with your tank, when I went skank my shield and absorption were increased by some percentage. These bolster effects exist when I use 248 gear as well because the game apparently sees that my shield and absorb are too low (because I don't have these stats in skank gear) and bolsters it. The result is that while the damaging stats for a skank tank with 248 gear are equal to what he can deal outside the warzone with the same gear and is not bolstered at all, the defensiveness is additionally increased as if he has a piece or two of tank gear. Maybe it isn't noticeable if your gear is 242 or below because in that case the bolster still seems "fair" but fully 248 geared and augmented skanks do benefit from a little too many extra stats in the fields their gear won't cover. You are purposefully spreading misinformation. People in 248 gear don't get any benefit from bolster in a warzone. Every. Single. Stat. Is. The. Same. A skank tank in 248, who has 24% shield and 20% absorb, has those exact same values when they step into a warzone. The reason your "skank" got an increase in shield and absorb from bolster was because your gear was below the bolster threshold. Real skanks won't get any bonuses from bolster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glower Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) I don't know. I only know that I have more than the base shield and absorb when I use my genuine DPS gear from my alt. It is nearly fully 248 with a few 246 and the augs are 236 or 240... Is it possible one of these "bolster bugs" caused when using DPS mods in a shield? Well you also get "free" stats as a tank but not because of bugs but because of shield generator/tanking role combo. But these stats do not come out of nowhere with 248, it's just a part of game rules (passives etc). Edited October 16, 2018 by Glower Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafiknoll Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 Well you also get "free" stats as a tank but not because of bugs but because of shield generator/tanking role combo. But these stats do not come out of nowhere with 248, it's just a part of game rules (passives etc). I know the passives. What I am trying to say is that I have a better shield and absorb while in a warzone compared to when out of a war zone, without any changing of gear, and unlike the "reality" Severith attempts to impose on me, I have no single piece in my gear which is below 246 and they are all augmented either 236 or 240. So unless the bolster threshold moved up again I really don't see any other explanation. The weird thing is I also believe that the people who say that when geared with 248 also checked it on their own toons. Maybe something related to me having a mix of high endurance stuff (which means less tertiary stats than normal) has something to do with that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MackPol Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 (edited) I do not get stat increase while in 248 gear. On tank or any other class. Edited October 17, 2018 by MackPol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Severith Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 I know the passives. What I am trying to say is that I have a better shield and absorb while in a warzone compared to when out of a war zone, without any changing of gear, and unlike the "reality" Severith attempts to impose on me, I have no single piece in my gear which is below 246 and they are all augmented either 236 or 240. So unless the bolster threshold moved up again I really don't see any other explanation. The weird thing is I also believe that the people who say that when geared with 248 also checked it on their own toons. Maybe something related to me having a mix of high endurance stuff (which means less tertiary stats than normal) has something to do with that... Claiming skank tanks get boosted tank stats while having all their gear above the bolster threshold is categorically false. Regardless of their individual opinions on skank tanks, most serious pvpers know bolster doesn't work that way. But maybe I'm wrong. You made the assertion, so lets see some evidence. Post some screenshots of your toon's character sheet while queing for a WZ, then post the same while in the WZ. Lets see the supposed tank stat boosts. Until then, you're just some salty guy posting false information to incite people who are uneducated about the skank tank situation. It doesn't help the arguments against skank tanking, it just derails the attempts to have constructive dialog about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafiknoll Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 But maybe I'm wrong. You made the assertion, so lets see some evidence. Post some screenshots of your toon's character sheet while queing for a WZ, then post the same while in the WZ. Lets see the supposed tank stat boosts. You think I didn't think of screenshots? I did, and already figured your next step should I bother and post them here: you would say I altered some internal mods between the shots. So to "prove" I am not cheating I actually need to send you 28 screenshots (each piece of gear in and out of a WZ), unless you would say I moved the alteration between 2 pieces between the shots... So I guess I would have to upload a video of me inspecting myself, loading into the match and inspecting again, unless you would say I took advantage of the nearly idle loading screen to cut the video and connect it to another video in which I changed my gear before entering the match... So I guess I gotta stream it live. Sadly my upload speed can't support that... Point is, as soon as you have decided I am lying for the sake of lying and causing drama about skank (which I still think are inferior to tanks now, so why should I care?), there is no definite enough method of evidence you would accept. I said my piece and shared my personal experience. The only actionable thing about what I say is that BW might wish to have their bolster checked so it doesn't improve "too low stats" on tanks who simply chose to increase their DPS stats. There is no saltiness in my original post on that topic, and I am not salty about skanks in general because I usually crash them [For the info, the things I do dislike in this game are: premades, mercs, dsync, visual queues, castbar delays and the upcoming gearing changes]. I am not "inciting" anyone and have no motive to lie on purpose with no gain. The only forum drama caused by this is one random guy zealously calling me a liar, and I don't see any possible way it could create more drama or anger or whatever my sinister motive would be if I truly was lying for the sake of lying. I suppose you are welcome to try and inspect me the next time I choose to play as a skank and see for yourself. Afraid it is not going to be soon because as I said, I prefer truly tanking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Severith Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 You think I didn't think of screenshots? I did, and already figured your next step should I bother and post them here: you would say I altered some internal mods between the shots. So to "prove" I am not cheating I actually need to send you 28 screenshots (each piece of gear in and out of a WZ), unless you would say I moved the alteration between 2 pieces between the shots... So I guess I would have to upload a video of me inspecting myself, loading into the match and inspecting again, unless you would say I took advantage of the nearly idle loading screen to cut the video and connect it to another video in which I changed my gear before entering the match... So I guess I gotta stream it live. Sadly my upload speed can't support that... Point is, as soon as you have decided I am lying for the sake of lying and causing drama about skank (which I still think are inferior to tanks now, so why should I care?), there is no definite enough method of evidence you would accept. I said my piece and shared my personal experience. The only actionable thing about what I say is that BW might wish to have their bolster checked so it doesn't improve "too low stats" on tanks who simply chose to increase their DPS stats. There is no saltiness in my original post on that topic, and I am not salty about skanks in general because I usually crash them [For the info, the things I do dislike in this game are: premades, mercs, dsync, visual queues, castbar delays and the upcoming gearing changes]. I am not "inciting" anyone and have no motive to lie on purpose with no gain. The only forum drama caused by this is one random guy zealously calling me a liar, and I don't see any possible way it could create more drama or anger or whatever my sinister motive would be if I truly was lying for the sake of lying. I suppose you are welcome to try and inspect me the next time I choose to play as a skank and see for yourself. Afraid it is not going to be soon because as I said, I prefer truly tanking 1) You make an assertion which is blatantly false, and dangerous to the integrity of the dialog of the thread. 2) You double and triple down on it, despite multiple people telling you that you are incorrect. 3) When asked to simply provide a couple of screenshots to prove your assertion, you go on a rant instead. I think people can figure it out from here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafiknoll Posted October 17, 2018 Share Posted October 17, 2018 (edited) 3) When asked to simply provide a couple of screenshots to prove your assertion, you go on a rant instead. Dude, don't try to make me sound stupid by calling pure logic a "rant". Suppose I did post the 2 screenshots or 28 screenshots or even that video, would you accept what I originally said about the flaw in the bolster or would you echo the relevant parts from my last post? It's that simple. As I said before you are fixated on being over annoyed about a forum conversation. The others who haven't experienced these numbers and said so at least had the objectiveness needed to just say so, and I believe they see what they see, and don't care too much if they believe me. You still have no clear motive for me to lie. I will repeat: I DON'T hate skanks anymore. Tanks are superior to them, so why should I care even if they are better than some of the weaker DPS classes? I don't believe there is any benefit to in continuing this conversation as long as each of your posts include any form of slandering. P.S: Just recalled you can't see shield and absorb when you inspect other players, so my invitation to inspect me in a match is also a null idea, I guess. Will have to think of something else if it is truly so critical to prove it unquestionably... Edited October 17, 2018 by Rafiknoll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xMaranathax Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 (edited) <face Palm> Sure why not lets have tanks out DPSing pure DPS builds I mean most PVP matches now a days are dominated by the hybrid classes as it is Merc, Sniper, Jug so why not ensure tanks get top DPS as well. The trinity system is simple Tank | Heals| Dps Tanks are suppose to absorb damage not do it! To do otherwise Breaks trinity! Heals should heal dmg DPS are your damage dealers high damage low survival I.e glass cannons Hybrids break trinity they should never have been a damaging class they should have been a support class that did buff/debuffs. If you have to have a hybrid it's damage needs to be half that of pure DPS spec otherwise whats the point of playing glass cannon specs! I am not saying to make tanks top DPS. Just give us more to hold better aggro in PvE and a chance to actually 1v1 someone. Sure, we can "hold out," but still have a hard time killing anything. I strongly agree with the trinity. That's why I don't think DPS classes should be able to use a healing ability, unless you give it to all classes. Let my tank self heal for 15-20% per GCD. Edited October 25, 2018 by xMaranathax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayOfTheWarriorx Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 I am not saying to make tanks top DPS. Just give us more to hold better aggro in PvE and a chance to actually 1v1 someone. Sure, we can "hold out," but still have a hard time killing anything. I strongly agree with the trinity. That's why I don't think DPS classes should be able to use a healing ability, unless you give it to all classes. Let my tank self heal for 15-20% per GCD. Spoilers are option, just more discriptive in point. I tend to agree with my compatriot Kazz on this subject. I play a pure DPS class that has no heals, so I am a particularly trinity minded kind of player. I don't at all mind that I play the only class that doesn't have any heals [The Assassin heal is so low they might as well not have it] and so I feel they are very similar in certain ways to that ideal. I don't personally feel that a tank should have low DPS like a healer, but I don't feel they should have DPS that is even nerely close to a DPS spec. It should be notiably less in my opinion. I do understand why people skank tank. I do understand why people run it, and all things considered, it's hard to blame them for running it. Even still, I don't agree with the build from a trinity point of view. If a tank can 1v1 a DPS, that in effect means, they are better at a 1v1 fight, than something that's entire design is to be good at fighting, whereas tanks are not designed for that purpose. They should have better survivability, and take them longer to kill, but the DPS should be low enough, that the DPS can counter that survivability by the greater damage output in the long run. Roles should matter, they should mean something, and they should have their limitations. I don't feel it's appropriate for tank specs to be capable of putting out the kind of damage numbers that they can. You can't blame all cases of a tank spec doing more damage than a DPS spec on skank tanking, some of those DPS are just not that good at it and that's the reason why you do see that sometimes, but there are plenty of times when that isn't the reason and you see skank tanks doing damage that by anyone's estimation would be considered comparable to an expectation of a DPS spec. It doesn't matter if it's from cleaves, aoes, bleeds or any other reason, damage is damage and it all kills and it all needs to be healed. If you have 5 k health left and you get hit by a cleave that does over 5 k or a burst attack that does over 5 k that person is equally dead. The problem here really isn't about having enough DPS to hold agro in PVE and thus in PVP they should be held to the same standards. That's the problem with gearing both PVE and PVP with the same gear. It makes class balancing impossible to do in a fair manner that wont at times won't unnecessarily and unjustly effect a spec that's not over performing in PVE because of PVP or the other way around. With seperate gear, you can make sure tanks have enough DPS to hold agro in PVE and not allow them to do so much damage in PVP that allows them to over perform there as a tank spec with regard to damage output. Skank tanks are unique. As a Marauder I can't put on any kind of gear that will allow me to heal or tank. A healer can't put on any kind of gear that will allow them to damage even remotely close to what a DPS could. A tank can't put on any kind of gear that will allow him to heal better. That's the point of contention I believe. Yet, a tank can out on a type of gear, that is intended for a DPS role and thereby allow them to break the norms of damage output expectations of a tank spec. There is no other class/spec/gearing that will allow someone to do all three cateogores of role out put at the same time [DPS/Protection/Heals] only a tank capable class can do that.Even still, even a DPS speced tank capable class is not going to be able to do the level of output in all three cateogroes a skank tank can. Furthermore you see many instances wherein you can tell that someone is skanking and not even doing the job of a tank and are just doing it for the added survivabilty to go along with DPS output . Here are some examples to use a basis of these points - https://ibb.co/dSVurV https://ibb.co/nfYErV https://ibb.co/gJ1Okq https://ibb.co/jutErV https://ibb.co/njQikq https://ibb.co/ntuyJA https://ibb.co/dYuyJA https://ibb.co/cPEb5q As far as PVE is concerned, your point is valid and I agree with you. But, we must take into account how a spec/class performs in both PVE and PVP. You can't leave one at the expense of the other. Your sentiments on healing amoung DPS, I couldn't possibly agree with more, except to say, that I don't think all DPS specs should have no healing, just more limited amounts with a ratio of dps to heal applied. I feel that almost all that do are healing WAY to much and shouldn't be able to to the level that they can as a DPS spec and still be able to put out the damage they can. Some Tanks can heal like crazy. I also feel that there should be a direct ratio with regard to dps output to healing output. The more you can heal, the less DPS you should be capable of, the less you can heal the more DPS output you should have. DPS and heals are direct mirror images of each other, unlike DPS and DCDs for example. DCDs mitigate damage whereas, damage takes health away, heals replace lost health. I don't blame people for skank tanking in PVP at all, they'd be idiots if they didn't.. If I was a tank, I would skank tank myself. That doesn't mean it's balanced, and that doesn't mean it should be allowed to persist. Now skanks can also sheild criticals, just like normal tanks can. At the same time,pure tanking is still totally viable in PVP, if not ideal. I have mad amounts of respect for tanks that pure tank in PVP , MAD respect [ I'm looking at you Kendra! ] If it's not a Trinity for all, it isn't a Trinity for anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts