SWTOR finally going P2W

[Joonbeams]

Kill the option for the gear to be craftable.

 

Welp, that's really your agenda then. Just make it about that instead of force-fitting this into a P2W narrative. Because for someone like me, the idea of being able to get this gear through crafting is a big plus and welcomed addition.

 

I won't spend a single dime of real money to do do this crafting either. So why, in a P2W analysis, is this option bad for the game?

[mhobin]

Welp, that's really your agenda then. Just make it about that instead of force-fitting this into a P2W narrative. Because for someone like me, the idea of being able to get this gear through crafting is a big plus and welcomed addition.

 

I won't spend a single dime of real money to do do this crafting either. So why, in a P2W analysis, is this option bad for the game?

 

Because the argument has nothing to do with how you play the game. It introduces a P2W mechanic into a subscription based game (which endgame is). Look at my post to Andryah. The same response work for you too.

[casirabit]

Kill the option for the gear to be craftable.

 

Let's don't. Just because you don't like crafting doesn't mean there are some people that have been wanting something to craft and this gives crafters something good to craft. Just because you don't like crafting, doesn't mean it is P2W, it just means you have to purchase something from someone. Oh the horror.

 

I will craft these for my guild and they will help get the mats for the items and "shock face" it will not cost them any credits. See that is the idea of guilds to help each other.

[mhobin]

Let's don't. Just because you don't like crafting doesn't mean there are some people that have been wanting something to craft and this gives crafters something good to craft. Just because you don't like crafting, doesn't mean it is P2W, it just means you have to purchase something from someone. Oh the horror.

 

I will craft these for my guild and they will help get the mats for the items and "shock face" it will not cost them any credits. See that is the idea of guilds to help each other.

 

That’s a nice way to gear. I’m glad you have a friendly guild who helps out. I like crafting too. However, not everyone is in that situation.

 

Others will have to raise large amounts of credits to buy the mats or the gear. You can do that through selling CM items quickly.

Edited September 10, 2018 by mhobin

[Andryah]

I will craft these for my guild and they will help get the mats for the items and "shock face" it will not cost them any credits. See that is the idea of guilds to help each other.

 

Exactly.

 

Our entire guild organized around building a scalable crafting machine after 5.0 dropped... so we could avoid the necessity of GC for gearing, thus letting members just let GC unfold as they play rather then feel compelled to a forced grind of GC.

 

We have already discussed it and plan to do the same for this new gear.... for those that want it (it's not clear yet if it's even worth the effort and resources). Players working together as a guild mitigates a lot of the actual challenges presented, and makes it actually an enjoyable accomplishment.

[Andryah]

The problem, Tux, is that you don't know that any/all of this gear will be BiS (because none of us know this). Will it have set bonuses? If not, then it cannot be BiS. In fact, we know absolutely nothing about this gear except it is a new tier of gear that will be crafted.

 

We don't even know how the materials will be gathered, what the materials even ARE, or where the schematics will be available. All of this will impact the price of said gear. And, again... no guarantee that it will be BiS across the board. Obviously, if B mods and the like can be crafted with an increase in stats and more easily than what you can get from Command Crates, then that will be an improvement to the current gear tier. But the fact is: We just don't know.

 

All of this is very cart before the horse and inflammatory in order to stir up outrage on the forums. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, really. But I think the concerns are extremely premature.

 

.

 

Exactly right PennyAnn.

 

And it's not like a conflated premise that this new gear = P2W is going to move the studio in any way.. because I'm pretty sure they too will follow the generally accepted definition as to what P2W is and is-not.

Edited September 10, 2018 by Andryah

[Joonbeams]

Because the argument has nothing to do with how you play the game. It introduces a P2W mechanic into a subscription based game (which endgame is). Look at my post to Andryah. The same response work for you too.

 

You're confusing a bunch of different arguments. You ignore the fact that this is only "P2W" in your definition because the studio allows CM items to be sold/purchased on the GTN using only in-game currency -- a good thing for players w/out a doubt.

 

So because that's in game, you've identified a loophole that will enable certain new users to use real cash to buy items using this player-friendly system, sell them on the GTN, and then perhaps (we still don't know the mechanics) buy/craft possibly BiS gear (again, very doubtful it becomes truly BiS, but conceding this for your argument).

 

But in doing this you ignore, discount, or outright disregard:

1. the net benefit of having a system that allows all items in the game to be earned only through play
   
2. the number of long-time players who've built up in-game wealth and won't be needing/using the slower method you describe
   
3. the players in the game who really love crafting (myself included) and have been begging for ways for the studio to make crafting viable again (the studio has intended from inception to have crafting be a viable in-game activity and this gets to that)
   
4. the fact that the 'grind' involved here, even for new players, is minimal, necessary to learn the game, and -- importantly -- need only involve playing the parts of the game that the new player would enjoy playing anyway
   

 

And you do all this, not through an intellectually honest: "I don't think end-game gear should be craftable" argument -- something people can debate fairly. But instead through a disingenuous, cutesy argument of "P2W" that, while I concede can be applied broadly here, doesn't really at all approach a concerning P2W regime (for the reasons above and laid out previously too). It doesn't at all appear that your arguments here are keeping the best interests of the game and playerbase in mind...

[mhobin]

Exactly right PennyAnn.

 

And it's not like a conflated premise that this new gear = P2W is going to move the studio in any way.. because I'm pretty sure they too will follow the generally accepted definition as to what P2W is and is-not.

 

Ok, you win. I concede the argument. We should all trust that EA will not put in any predetory or abusive game mechanics. They have no track record or history of doing such things.

[Andryah]

You're confusing a bunch of different arguments. You ignore the fact that this is only "P2W" in your definition because the studio allows CM items to be sold/purchased on the GTN using only in-game currency -- a good thing for players w/out a doubt.

 

So because that's in game, you've identified a loophole that will enable certain new users to use real cash to buy items using this player-friendly system, sell them on the GTN, and then perhaps (we still don't know the mechanics) buy/craft possibly BiS gear (again, very doubtful it becomes truly BiS, but conceding this for your argument).

 

But in doing this you ignore, discount, or outright disregard:

1. the net benefit of having a system that allows all items in the game to be earned only through play
   
2. the number of long-time players who've built up in-game wealth and won't be needing/using the slower method you describe
   
3. the players in the game who really love crafting (myself included) and have been begging for ways for the studio to make crafting viable again (the studio has intended from inception to have crafting be a viable in-game activity and this gets to that)
   
4. the fact that the 'grind' involved here, even for new players, is minimal, necessary to learn the game, and -- importantly -- need only involve playing the parts of the game that the new player would enjoy playing anyway
   

 

And you do all this, not through an intellectually honest: "I don't think end-game gear should be craftable" argument -- something people can debate fairly. But instead through a disingenuous, cutesy argument of "P2W" that, while I concede can be applied broadly here, doesn't really at all approach a concerning P2W regime (for the reasons above and laid out previously too). It doesn't at all appear that your arguments here are keeping the best interests of the game and playerbase in mind...

 

Very well stated Joonbeams.

[Gebrakstkasten]

Ok, you win. I concede the argument. We should all trust that EA will not put in any predetory or abusive game mechanics. They have no track record or history of doing such things.

 

Sarcasm or detached irony?

[mhobin]

You're confusing a bunch of different arguments. You ignore the fact that this is only "P2W" in your definition because the studio allows CM items to be sold/purchased on the GTN using only in-game currency -- a good thing for players w/out a doubt.

 

So because that's in game, you've identified a loophole that will enable certain new users to use real cash to buy items using this player-friendly system, sell them on the GTN, and then perhaps (we still don't know the mechanics) buy/craft possibly BiS gear (again, very doubtful it becomes truly BiS, but conceding this for your argument).

 

But in doing this you ignore, discount, or outright disregard:

1. the net benefit of having a system that allows all items in the game to be earned only through play
   
2. the number of long-time players who've built up in-game wealth and won't be needing/using the slower method you describe
   
3. the players in the game who really love crafting (myself included) and have been begging for ways for the studio to make crafting viable again (the studio has intended from inception to have crafting be a viable in-game activity and this gets to that)
   
4. the fact that the 'grind' involved here, even for new players, is minimal, necessary to learn the game, and -- importantly -- need only involve playing the parts of the game that the new player would enjoy playing anyway
   

 

And you do all this, not through an intellectually honest: "I don't think end-game gear should be craftable" argument -- something people can debate fairly. But instead through a disingenuous, cutesy argument of "P2W" that, while I concede can be applied broadly here, doesn't really at all approach a concerning P2W regime (for the reasons above and laid out previously too). It doesn't at all appear that your arguments here are keeping the best interests of the game and playerbase in mind...

 

Here is a response to each of your bullet points

 

1. A system with everything earned through play is the only fair system. Especially in a sub based game.

 

2. Built up wealth to this point of the game has been for cosmetic uses only. Many players have had no real need for credits. They have a few outfits they like, and spend their time on the fleet between PvP and raids. Credits have never been a priority, as they have no real effect on the active playing parts of the game. This system changes that.

 

3. You can have top level crafted gear or direct CM sales on the GTN. Having both puts a P2W mechanic in endgame.

 

4. What is faster way to 100m credits? Setting up several different crafting toon, gathering the mats and selling the crafted items on the GTN. Or buying two hypercrates and selling them on the GTN. One will take months, the other minutes.

 

You need to stop looking at this from a how I play the game view, and look at the system as a whole for the game.

Edited September 10, 2018 by mhobin

[IanArgent]

I don't know if I consider that "P2W" still, but...that certainly is a compelling argument...the best one I've heard yet, and it does make me take pause and consider the fact that this is how some people view it.

 

Good reply. You haven't fully changed my mind yet, but...you are making me think about it a different way.

 

If the definition of P2W is "you can sell CM items to get something in game without working for it," then being able to commission Ops runs (as we've had for as long as I've been playing the game) is P2W, because you can get a group to carry you through highest-end content (except for the period in which you could only get top-end gear from GC drops, there were no tokens).

 

Hell, you could do it by paypal and skip the middleman (not that I've heard of anyone doing it that way, but people are endlessly adaptable.

[TrixxieTriss]

That just it. The definition of P2W means there is NO OTHER WAY TO GET IT. So the fact you can A) farm credits in game to buy it off the GTN if needed, B) get the schematics by whatever means BW is putting into the game to get them (which they haven't told us how yet), getting the materials from in game activities and crafting it yourself means NO RL money being spent on it at all. This by definition means it can't be P2W, since you do not need to spend one cent to get it. You may choose to speed that process up by deciding to spend RL money to do so, however that is a choice, and does not make it P2W. I know I will never spend one dime to get Tier 5 gear. If I do not go and get the schems myself, and craft it for myself for free, then I'll make a credit plan if I need more credits then I have and buy it with Credits earned in game.

 

It’s easy to stick to your definition in a black and white world. But that’s not the way I see it and it’s obvious from reading this thread that many others see it the way I do.

 

Let’s just agree to disagree.

 

You think it’s not pay to win because it’s not purchased directly from the Bioware CM

I think it is pay to win because you can purchase other items on the CM to convert to credits to buy crafted gear.

I think it’s pay to win if someone uses the services of a gold seller to buy credits and use those to buy crafted gear

 

Either way, someone is paying real money to circumvent the system of earning the credits to buy the gear that gives them an advantage.

 

Paying real money to gain an advantage in a video game is pay to win in my books.

[casirabit]

It’s easy to stick to your definition in a black and white world. But that’s not the way I see it and it’s obvious from reading this thread that many others see it the way I do.

 

Let’s just agree to disagree.

 

You think it’s not pay to win because it’s not purchased directly from the Bioware CM

I think it is pay to win because you can purchase other items on the CM to convert to credits to buy crafted gear.

I think it’s pay to win if someone uses the services of a gold seller to buy credits and use those to buy crafted gear

 

Either way, someone is paying real money to circumvent the system of earning the credits to buy the gear that gives them an advantage.

 

Paying real money to gain an advantage in a video game is pay to win in my books.

 

You seem to be forgetting one thing, some of us can craft the gear, which will cost us no credits, since we actually have a guild that was built upon helping one another so how is that pay to win?

[Rion_Starkiller]

Let's just move away from the term "pay2win" and think about people skipping the grinding process and directly purchasing (potentially) BiS gear from the GTN. Has BiS gear EVER been sold on the GTN? What are the ramifications? Is this a good thing? Edited September 10, 2018 by Rion_Starkiller

[Joonbeams]

Here is a response to each of your bullet points

 

1. A system with everything earned through play is the only fair system. Especially in a sub based game.

 

2. Built up wealth to this point of the game has been for cosmetic uses only. Many players have had no real need for credits. They have a few outfits they like, and spend their time on the fleet between PvP and raids. Credits have never been a priority, as they have no real effect on the active playing parts of the game. This system changes that.

 

3. You can have top level crafted gear or direct CM sales on the GTN. Having both puts a P2W mechanic in endgame.

 

4. What is faster way to 100m credits? Setting up several different crafting toon, gathering the mats and selling the crafted items on the GTN. Or buying two hypercrates and selling them on the GTN. One will take months, the other minutes.

 

....

 

Just because you're still trying, and I happen to have some down time, I'll address these:

 

POINT 1

On point #1, we agree. And fortunately, that's exactly what this game offers - the ability to earn everything, cosmetic or otw, just by play. So we're totally aligned there.

 

POINT 2

As for point #2, when you say "Built up wealth to this point of the game has been for cosmetic uses only" it's almost impossible for me to continue to take you seriously. Because I've been a crafter here since the beginning -- I've NEVER done an OP, not once. NEVER done ranked. But I've geared my toons from day one with crafted items I've made and purchased. I've bought and sold augments. The farthest I've ever gotten in GC on a single toon is about level 90ish (just not my thing). But I have a large number of toons in 246 crafted gear and have been fine with it for the content I like. Amongst other things, I use my credits to buy the mats that I can use to make the gear I want, the augs I want, etc. -- not cosmetic, but the actual gear to actually play the game. Frankly, this point is rubbish.

 

POINT 3

As to point #3, you ignore that "top level" gear is already in game now. It's not BiS, but as above, it's more than enough for a lot fo the content in this game. I know that's impossible for some people to understand but "casuals" like me are perfectly okay with 246 gear for most of everything we do in this game - and in eras past, crafted gear has been "top level" and adequate for all but the hardest content. I've accepted the dubious possibility that the crafted gear will be BiS just so that I give your arguments their greatest weight. But the far more likely scenario is that it won't be BiS, it won't have set bonuses, etc. It will just be "top tier" like the current 246s are now.

 

But even if it is BiS, I don't think you've thought through the implications of removing CM items from the GTN. Suppose that was done -- as you concede, it would remove the option for a new player to just buy and sell items from CM to get to top tier gear. But it seems you believe that this will "level the playing field". First, ppl like me will still get the gear faster than anyone else (again, based on assumed mechanics we could be totally wrong about). That won't change. New players or players w/out credits will still have to 'grind' "months" as you say to get this gear. That won't change.

 

So what will the "benefit" be? New players who may have wanted to buy CM items as you describe won't be able to now. Umkay, great. But now, EVERYONE ELSE in game who wanted to buy cosmetic gear, decos, etc. will now have to spend REAL CASH to do so, or they can't get it. Are you seriously thinking this through all the way? See, I'm happy to use my in-game currency to buy cosmetics items -- and other people are happy to use real life cash to convert CM items to in game currency. Aren't free markets beautiful?

 

POINT 4

As for point #4, the fastest way to $100M credits for me and ppl like me at this stage is crafting and doing game content. Honestly, if you join a good guild like Andryah's, it's even faster. And not only is it faster, but FWIW, it's more rewarding (but you'd have to be a real crafter to understand that). But I grant you that someone can for sure buy stuff off the CM and make 10s of millions in credits quickly -- so that we don't bog down on that point, I'll concede that for most people, that is faster. Again, you have to weigh that against the ramifications of what giving up what we have would mean.

 

Also "faster" is a bit too clever here. It's certainly true that the fastest way to a faceroll would be for a brand new player to get gear this way and then try to use it in the content that actually needs it. Even with a custom tin-foil hat on, the fastest way to getting fulling geared and winning in this game is to play through the content, ideally with others who can teach you, and learn the mechanics. No amount of gear can speed that up. By the time you've gotten the skills to need the gear for the toughest content, you'll have (or have had the opportunity to have) enough credits to buy the crafted gear because:

 

• A final point on crafted gear is that with a large number of people crafting, the scarcity, and therefore the prices, of items will fall precipitously in short order. So, while I've accepted for the sake of argument that there may be a need to get hundreds of millions in credits to be geared, it will almost certainly be a tiny fraction of that in very short order as has happened in every single wave of crafting boons.
  

...

You need to stop looking at this from a how I play the game view, and look at the system as a whole for the game.

 

You clearly have no idea how ironic this statement is...

[Khevar]

Let's just move away from the term "pay2win" and think about people skipping the grinding process and directly purchasing (potentially) BiS gear from the GTN. Has BiS gear EVER been sold on the GTN? What are the ramifications? Is this a good thing?

PvE BiS (not PvP though) was both craftable and could be purchased on the GTN during the 1.x days.

 

2.0 changed this so that BiS couldn't be crafted, but one tier below it could be. This has followed through to today.

 

Now, this is my opinion, but this didn't really cause a big problem at first, mainly because the materials required were super rare, and so there wasn't really a lot of BiS gear actually for sale.

 

However, around 1.6, as I recall, a change was made that the materials could be obtained by reverse-engineering PvP gear. There was a sudden explosion of players running PvP to get the gear, to RE, to get the mats, to craft and/or sell them on the GTN. This high availability of materials mean that tons of BiS gear was available, and it drove the prices down considerably.

 

Purely anecdotally, it seemed to me that the number if groups forming to run operations went down. Not just in my guild at the time, but groups forming in fleet chat, etc. When the 2.0 changes happened, I noticed significant uptick in participation of ops. Not just Scum and Villainy, but Terror from Beyond, which was an older operation re-boosted to the new level (55).

Edited September 10, 2018 by Khevar

[giorgo]

PvE BiS (not PvP though) was both craftable and could be purchased on the GTN during the 1.x days.

 

2.0 changed this so that BiS couldn't be crafted, but one tier below it could be. This has followed through to today.

 

Now, this is my opinion, but this didn't really cause a big problem at first, mainly because the materials required were super rare, and so there wasn't really a lot of BiS gear actually for sale.

 

However, around 1.6, as I recall, a change was made that the materials could be obtained by reverse-engineering PvP gear. There was a sudden explosion of players running PvP to get the gear, to RE, to get the mats, to craft and/or sell them on the GTN. This high availability of materials mean that tons of BiS gear was available, and it drove the prices down considerably.

 

Purely anecdotally, it seemed to me that the number if groups forming to run operations went down. Not just in my guild at the time, but groups forming in fleet chat, etc. When the 2.0 changes happened, I noticed significant uptick in participation of ops. Not just Scum and Villainy, but Terror from Beyond, which was an older operation re-boosted to the new level (55).

 

Yeah but there was no CM back then.It made it's way into the game when it went F2P, in patch 1.5. There was no way to convert real money into credits.

[Khevar]

Yeah but there was no CM back then.It made it's way into the game when it went F2P, in patch 1.5. There was no way to convert real money into credits.

You've misremembered.

 

Dread Guard gear (rating 150) was craftable after the Cartel Market was introduced, was BiS, and was being sold on the GTN.

Edited September 11, 2018 by Khevar

[TrixxieTriss]

Has BiS gear EVER been sold on the GTN? What are the ramifications? Is this a good thing?

 

No, BiS hasn’t been sold on the GTN since 2.0.

 

I think the ramifications for pvpers will be dire. Lots of us pvpers have already posted why in multiple threads. So I won’t rehash them all.

 

People with heaps of credits will be at the top of the food change and crafters will be able to ask any price because those super rich will be able to pay it and have a distinct advantage.

Mist other the other pvp players will still have tier 3-4 gear (Augments are a defacto tier 4).

There won’t be much difference at all in regs. Most people are so bad that even the best gear doesn’t help them.

 

You’ll get those twinked geared people in regs and they’ll either be high ranked players who would kill you naked (so their gear doesn’t matter) or they will be people who need to pay for stupidly priced gear to get an advantage to win. If they are MM ops crafters themselves, then there is a chance they are mediocre pvpers (as a lot of pve people are).

Mediocre players killing better players because they can’t afford the better gear is an excellent way to make good players quit the game.

 

I think it will all come down to how the mats and schematics are collected. If they are only in MM ops, then prices will be stupidly high and the average ranked players won’t even have tier 5.

If the mats and schematics are in ranked also, then every real ranked dplayer will have tier 5 and a lot of regs will too because everyone will farm them in ranked, regardless of skill. Which means ranked will become as bad as regs and they may as well rename it “arena queue”.

 

It’s a no win situation. The best solution for pvpers is for seperate gear or to raise Bolster above the tier 5 so that gear doesn’t matter.

Edited September 11, 2018 by TrixxieTriss

[giorgo]

You've misremembered.

 

Dread Guard gear (rating 150) was craftable after the Cartel Market was introduced, was BiS, and was being sold on the GTN.

 

For like 2 months? It was probably an oversight, aftermath of the whole disaster that led to F2P.

Can you remember if this gear had set bonus btw?

[Khevar]

For like 2 months? It was probably an oversight, aftermath of the whole disaster that led to F2P.

Can you remember if this gear had set bonus btw?

It was about 5 months actually.

[mhobin]

Just because you're still trying, and I happen to have some down time, I'll address these:

 

 

 

POINT 2

As for point #2, when you say "Built up wealth to this point of the game has been for cosmetic uses only" it's almost impossible for me to continue to take you seriously. Because I've been a crafter here since the beginning -- I've NEVER done an OP, not once. NEVER done ranked. But I've geared my toons from day one with crafted items I've made and purchased. I've bought and sold augments. The farthest I've ever gotten in GC on a single toon is about level 90ish (just not my thing). But I have a large number of toons in 246 crafted gear and have been fine with it for the content I like. Amongst other things, I use my credits to buy the mats that I can use to make the gear I want, the augs I want, etc. -- not cosmetic, but the actual gear to actually play the game. Frankly, this point is rubbish.

 

 

 

• A final point on crafted gear is that with a large number of people crafting, the scarcity, and therefore the prices, of items will fall precipitously in short order. So, while I've accepted for the sake of argument that there may be a need to get hundreds of millions in credits to be geared, it will almost certainly be a tiny fraction of that in very short order as has happened in every single wave of crafting boons.
  

 

is...

 

Unless they make the schematics tradable it is more likely then not that you will not be crafting this gear. As of now they have just said the schematics will drop from MM operations. That means the supply will be very low. Prices will be very high. “Crafters” will not be crafting the gear. Progression raiders will be crafting the gear.

 

The gear you make now has no real effect on PvP or progression raiding. Without set bonuses it is worse then entry level gear from drops/vendors. People in those two communities have never used crafted gear before as a primary gear source. So my argument that credits have been for cosmetics is true. The only thing that was bought by credits for stats were augments. Which are still a P2W mechanic but a smaller one.

[Andryah]

It’s easy to stick to your definition in a black and white world. But that’s not the way I see it and it’s obvious from reading this thread that many others see it the way I do.

 

LMAO... you mean the small handful of other players in this thread who keep insisting this is P2W ... black and white (binary is a better term) on their opinion as well?

 

In contrast to dozens of players all echoing the generally accepted definition of the term ----> P2W = item can ONLY be acquired by direct purchase from the studio for real money, and item is neither tradable, nor obtainable in game??

 

Let’s just agree to disagree.

 

I wish......

 

As long as the OP and a couple of other forum members keep doubling down and insisting it is P2W, while ignoring and even ridiculing every other viewpoint in the thread.. this simply cannot happen. So how about you start by trying to get the OP to demonstrate some reason here.

 

Better yet.. how about we all wait until we actually get details on the gear.. because a lot of what is being dramatically tossed around right now is complete speculation.. on all sides of the discussion. Why panic or smear jello all over the floor before actually having any real details?

Edited September 11, 2018 by Andryah

[mhobin]

LMAO... you mean the 2 or 3 other players in this threadwho keep insisting this is P2W ... black and white on their opinion as well? Versus dozens of players all echoing the generally accepted definition of the term?

 

 

 

As long as the OP and a couple of other forum members keep doubling down and insisting it is P2W, while ignoring every other viewpoint in the thread.. this simply cannot happen.

 

There is a long thread in the PvP section with most people agreeing with me.