SWTOR finally going P2W

[kodrac]

If they hav set bonuses, I need it for ranked PvP.

 

Running heroics is faster then buying a hypercrate and selling it for 75m? I need to start doing heroics.

 

Yes you do. Stop being lazy. How many times are you going to have to relist those heroics? How much are they going to be undercut by and force you to relist them again? Just farm heroics and sell augment mats from running the warzones you would normally run. Crafting the augments and selling them would net you even more credits, but something tells me crafting would take too much time and effort for you.

[jimmorrisson]

We’ll they finally made the game pay to win. New crafted gear will be extremely expensive on the GTN.

 

How are you going to raise money.....grind months of heroics or pay for some rare gear on the CM to raise the funds.

 

I’m just coming back to the game after a few years off. I don’t have 100m credits. Guess I am buying packs.

 

<----- still sees no point whatsoever in grinding out a new gear set.

 

I haven't actively geared up in this game since about the 2nd month of release when you did need some decent gear to clear FPs and OPs. Ever since then, especially once bolster went into place, it's been very easy to ignore gearing.

 

Yes, I throw on the new gear I get from CXP, but I only augment on my favorite toons and even then it's with the basic crafted ones, not the 2 recent expensive tiers.

 

I agree with the pay2win aspect and the new gear tier disincentive. Even if you disagree with the term pay2win used in this instance you cannot deny that most will use credits earned from cartel store products auctioned to purchase the new gear tier.

 

Expansion 5.0's gearing system along with the recent server merge is the main reason for the current state of the game.

Edited September 6, 2018 by jimmorrisson

[mhobin]

And this has been my point and the point of others in this discussion.... you cannot get an advantage over other players by buying this crafted gear (directly or indirectly). EVERY player has equal access to this gear.. by crafting it themselves, or buying it from a crafter... period and none of them has to use CCs to buy CM content to sell to other players to do so.

 

YOU can choose to do that if you wish.. and that is your choice.. but other players can and will acquire this gear without paying any real money in the process. Your choice does not make it P2W... for you it would be more along the lines of "I'm poor in game so I have to pay to catch-up" with every other player who can directly buy with credits they already have.

 

Poor logistics management by you does not make something P2W... no matter how "dug in" you are on the discussion.

 

 

I absolutely have an advantage over a player if I can get credits quickly using the CM while it takes other players time to get that gear through grinding. If I have top tier gear the first week, and it takes others a month to get the credits, I have an advantage. If everyone has to grind OR RELY ON THE GRIND THEY DONE, then you have no P2W in the system.

 

Say it takes 100m to buy a full set. That would take about a month or so to grind.. Or it would take 20 minutes buy and resell a hypercrate. Because I can use money to get gear faster then gearing in game, it is P2W.

 

I get it you are rich. Since I came back I make about 10-15m a week playing ranked PvP and selling the augments from mat drops.

 

I am not having this argument because I don’t know, or don’t have credits. I am having this argument because, like every other EA multiplayer game they are trying to nickel and dime their customer base. They are putting f2p mmo mechanics directly into the sub portion of the game.

 

Being able to craft top tier gear was a descion made to drive CM sales.

[IanArgent]

I question your initial premise, that there's a lot of people buying CM items and relisting. If they are, I haven't seen much evidence of it. Not at the scale it'd have to be for the number of people in game.

 

And if people DO start, then it'll drive down prices, and it won't be worth it to do. There's an awful lot of credits in the system, but not an infinite amount

[kodrac]

Here I pay a subscription, this practice encourages subs to pay real money in the CM to keep up with others who will do the same

 

What??? I don't even... Where does paying a subscription encourage buying items in the CM? You're all over the place with the false equivalencies. This P2W crusade is entirely on you.

[mhobin]

So.. you admit to using available horded CCs from your ongoing monthly sub.. and hence spend no real money... yet insist this new tier of gear is forced P2W? Cute switch up there.

 

Now.. I can understand your misperception here.. being credit poor and having no consistent plan for accumulating in game wealth. But the fact is.. players like myself simply devote a few minutes each day to their wealth plan and reap the results each morning when they log in. Other players spend time differently.... but it is their time to spend and they go that route instead of your route. Regardless.. they are not spending real money to get the gear in question.

 

Spending CCs to get credits IS inefficient.. even though it works and is allowed by the studio. I spend no CCs or real money to have items to sell on the GTN.. yet I routinely log in and collect 10-20 M in profits every morning... and have billions on hand from simply following my daily plan. You on the other hand spend CCs to convert to credits via GTN... which is fine... but it's not an efficient use of CCs. CCs are most efficiently used for things you simply cannot purchase from another player off the GTN. You are certainly free to use your CCs inefficiently... but eventually you will tap out and then be forced to spend real money for more of them under your method.

 

Well,I did pay real money on a sub I did not use. Stupid of me, yes, but still spent real money which I converted into in game cash. Those CC were “gifted” to me because I paid $15 a month.

 

You need to stop thinking of just you and me in this argument. Think on a more macro level. Crafted gear, traded on the GTN will drive many players to the CM. It is a cash grab. It is P2W.

[mhobin]

What??? I don't even... Where does paying a subscription encourage buying items in the CM? You're all over the place with the false equivalencies. This P2W crusade is entirely on you.

 

Paying the subscription should exclude all P2W mechanics from endgame. Until crafted top tier gear was announced there was no P2W mechanic in endgame, now there is.

[robertthebard]

It's not a direct P2W but it is a P2W nevertheless.It encourages players to buy cc in order to obtain the new gear from GTN and i would argue that this is what the studio aims for.

White knights will tell you that it's not though, as the second poster, ignoring the obvious encouraged customer behavior

 

Really? Because looking at the prices, it didn't encourage me to spend more money on CC. It did, however, encourage me to craft my own gear, which is something that I can do w/out spending a single dime in the CC, although, if I want to equip it, I'll either have to have an active sub, or have already purchased the authorization to use it. Since that has been in the game for far longer than what the OP has been gone, if it's P2W now, it was P2W then, and then there's the question of "Win what?"

 

I get it; "but we have to hate EA". However, in this respect, you're reaching, and the evident troll of "white knight" really doesn't apply to the dialog, since you can play the game as intended and create your own crafted gear to use, and, can even make the modifications and put them in legacy gear, and pass it back and forth between mirror classes in your legacy, all w/out heavily investing in CC. This "minor" detail shoots a major hole in your theory.

[kodrac]

Paying the subscription should exclude all P2W mechanics from endgame. Until crafted top tier gear was announced there was no P2W mechanic in endgame, now there is.

 

No, there isn't. This perception is entirely manufactured by your apparent hatred of alleged P2W in other games.

[tummiswtor]

I hate craft so I guess I'll stay with Tier IV gear.

[aerockyul]

OP here

 

You are all looking at this from the perspective of a hardcore player who has put years into the game. You have lots of credits. Crafted top end gear is a pure cash grab for Bioware. If a new player asks on fleet chat, what is the fastest way to get gear?

 

The answer is to buy items on the CM, sell them and then buy gear. I guarantee this descion was made by the devs after they saw an increase in CM sales when they made augment mats much more rare.

 

You can use the most strict definition of P2W if you want, but it does not change the fact that the easiest way to skip all the work you have done for years is to pay real money and skip any type of grind.

 

I guarantee you would lose that bet

We'll leave alone that you have no way of knowing, AT ALL, whether CM sales are up, down, even, anything at all. No gold post or EA report has come out and said anything about that, it is pure conjecture on your part.

 

This year any upticks in sales, should there be provable upticks, would be directly related to them wising up about direct-selling and taking the RNG factor out of most of the desirable cosmetic gear, and the release of the Ultimate Cartel packs, which incorporate chances at everything ever released in all previous packs AND new stuff. They are dropping cartel certificates now, too. The jump-to-70 tokens probably helped, too.

 

Again, it's pretty laughable to think CM sales spiked directly because of in-game augments that not everyone needs nor wants and they are freely available to attain 100% through in-game activities and 0% from the CM

[Senden]

Crafted gear being BiS? Oh that's tugging on my SWG heartstrings.. too bad that sort of approach just doesn't work as well any more thanks to the way cash shops work in games like this. Those arguing semantics, see those goalposts? Don't you think they've been moved enough? I swear ya'll find a way to defend an "I Win" button if a developer offered such a purchase.

[IanArgent]

By your definition, this game has always been P2W, because you can buy carries through any content, which gets you anything you like, from Wings Of The Architect to Tier 4 tokens; simply by converting CC to credits.

 

If the credits were sunk, that'd be one thing, but if you buy gear from a player, other than the 3 or 6 percent "sales tax" (evaded by people spamming WTS/WTB in chat) the credits just move around.

[mhobin]

Really? Because looking at the prices, it didn't encourage me to spend more money on CC. It did, however, encourage me to craft my own gear, which is something that I can do w/out spending a single dime in the CC, although, if I want to equip it, I'll either have to have an active sub, or have already purchased the authorization to use it. Since that has been in the game for far longer than what the OP has been gone, if it's P2W now, it was P2W then, and then there's the question of "Win what?"

 

I get it; "but we have to hate EA". However, in this respect, you're reaching, and the evident troll of "white knight" really doesn't apply to the dialog, since you can play the game as intended and create your own crafted gear to use, and, can even make the modifications and put them in legacy gear, and pass it back and forth between mirror classes in your legacy, all w/out heavily investing in CC. This "minor" detail shoots a major hole in your theory.

 

The gear you craft now is not BiS. As of now there is no P2W mechanic in the game. That changes when top tier gear is craftable.

[kodrac]

Crafted gear being BiS? Oh that's tugging on my SWG heartstrings.. too bad that sort of approach just doesn't work as well any more thanks to the way cash shops work in games like this. Those arguing semantics, see those goalposts? Don't you think they've been moved enough? I swear ya'll find a way to defend an "I Win" button if a developer offered such a purchase.

 

What do we win?

[robertthebard]

The gear you craft now is not BiS. As of now there is no P2W mechanic in the game. That changes when top tier gear is craftable.

 

Nope, if there's no P2W for what I'm crafting now, which is Tier 1, right around Tier 2, and top tier gear can indeed be crafted, there's no P2W at all. It may be interesting trying to get the schematics, but it will all be achievable through playing the game as intended, for in game rewards, thus, not P2W. "But someone can get credits by playing the GTN/CM" does not equate to P2W. Now, when they open the tab that actually sells end game gear, I'll gladly revise my position on P2W, until then, I'll happily go right along knowing that if I was really hardcore interested in getting top tier gear, I can achieve it w/out reaching for my wallet. For so long as this remains true, P2W is a cover for "but I don't want to grind it out, and I can't afford the GTN prices set by those that already have".

[StormForceDax]

I think there are many here who would take issue with you referring to me as a white knight:rolleyes:..

 

 

I just object to the term entirely, It's used to belittle and undermine some else's point of view. This guy uses it in every other post he makes.

[Lhancelot]

I just object to the term entirely, It's used to belittle and undermine some else's point of view. This guy uses it in every other post he makes.

 

Well said. I never thought of it in that way, but that's a good way to put the use of this term. I have even used it before, now feel bad about it. It's a lazy way to excuse oneself from acknowledging another perspective.

[giorgo]

U do know the gear on the CM has no stats to them, they are just the shell? You still have to get the in game mods through CXP tokens to get that good gear then you can tear the mods out of them and put them in the gear you bought on CM. You do know that, right? If you do, Then how is that P2W?

Way to completely miss the point.

[robertthebard]

Way to completely miss the point.

 

It actually is what P2W means, however. The definition I've seen thrown around in this thread is not P2W. Playing the GTN/CM to get rich is standard operating procedure for a lot of players, and quite frankly, in a lot of MMOs where there is absolutely no end game gear, or nothing but cosmetics in their CM equivalents. Is it ironic that, in the GW 2 forums, there was a thread complaining about the lack of items that would constitute P2W, and yet, the same idea of buying up cosmetics and posting them on their GTN equivalent is a prevalent thing?

 

I reject P2W elements in MMOs wholeheartedly, but since we can't just hit the CM and buy our end game gear, I am forced to also reject the notion that swtor is P2W.

[giorgo]

The question in mark here is : Can i create a new toon, throw money on CM , sell the stuff on GTN, use the credits to buy BiS gear? The answer here is absolutely yes. Am i forced to do it? Absolutely not. Some people will do it though, as they already have with the new augments. The fact that "they don't need it" is irrelevant.

Next question is : what is the fastest and easiest way of making credits?

Converting real money into in game currency is by far the least time and effort consuming way there is.

To put things into perspective : I only pvp, i don't craft, i don't have millions of credits( and when i say "I", i use the word generally). The new gear will be a reward from MM gods and it will require you to craft it on top of it.

Now what are my options in here?

A) Run weeks and weeks of heroics, burning my brain and slowly buy the new gear.

B) Throw money into CM, convert them into credits and buy the new gear from the GTN in a couple of days.

C) Uninstall the game.

 

P.S. If you guys are getting triggered by the use of words such as 'white knight" and "P2W", i digress.

Craftable and sellable BiS gear with very limited supply is as far as P2W as a P2P game can go though (since it's easy to convert irl money into in game currency).Not understanding it, means that you are either a white knight (), or naive, or a crafter yourself waiting for the billions to drop like rain, or there are other physical limitations involved.

The end.

[Andryah]

I reject P2W elements in MMOs wholeheartedly, but since we can't just hit the CM and buy our end game gear, I am forced to also reject the notion that swtor is P2W.

 

/Endorsed.

[Andryah]

The question in mark here is : Can i create a new toon, throw money on CM , sell the stuff on GTN, use the credits to buy BiS gear? The answer here is absolutely yes. Am i forced to do it? Absolutely not. Some people will do it though, as they already have with the new augments. The fact that "they don't need it" is irrelevant.

 

If you are rolling a new character and immediately wanting to buy level 70 BiS gear (and by the way.. it is not clear at all that the new craftable gear will actually be BiS... that is just an assumption on your part)... you have your priorities wrong in my view.. unless you are also applying a masters datacron.

 

Next question is : what is the fastest and easiest way of making credits?

Converting real money into in game currency is by far the least time and effort consuming way there is.

To put things into perspective : I only pvp, i don't craft, i don't have millions of credits( and when i say "I", i use the word generally). The new gear will be a reward from MM gods and it will require you to craft it on top of it.

Now what are my options in here?

A) Run weeks and weeks of heroics, burning my brain and slowly buy the new gear.

B) Throw money into CM, convert them into credits and buy the new gear from the GTN in a couple of days.

C) Uninstall the game.

 

Actually.. players who do have a wealth plan and do work the plan on an ongoing basis... are already sitting on the needed credits in their legacy bank.. and incur no need to follow your two dimensional approach to converting cash to credits via the GTN..... so in reality.. they are always ahead of your little ploy. This is precisely why some players actually have a wealth plan and work it.. so that they are not subject to the whims of change in an MMO.. and all MMOs change over time. You on the other hand appear to operate from the hand-to-mouth model.. where you do nothing until they announce a new patch and then you get yourself all worked up over being ill prepared to take advantage of what is newly added.

 

As for your alleged options A, B, C... given both your feelings about the matter, and your stated lack of wealth in game due to choices you have personally made... option C may very well be the best choice for you. For others.. not so much.

 

P.S. If you guys are getting triggered by the use of words such as 'white knight" and "P2W", i digress.

Craftable and sellable BiS gear with very limited supply is as far as P2W as a P2P game can go though (since it's easy to convert irl money into in game currency).Not understanding it, means that you are either a white knight (), or naive, or a crafter yourself waiting for the billions to drop like rain, or there are other physical limitations involved.

The end.

 

Sure pal.

Edited September 6, 2018 by Andryah

[Rion_Starkiller]

The question in mark here is : Can i create a new toon, throw money on CM , sell the stuff on GTN, use the credits to buy BiS gear? The answer here is absolutely yes. Am i forced to do it? Absolutely not. Some people will do it though, as they already have with the new augments. The fact that "they don't need it" is irrelevant.

Next question is : what is the fastest and easiest way of making credits?

Converting real money into in game currency is by far the least time and effort consuming way there is.

To put things into perspective : I only pvp, i don't craft, i don't have millions of credits( and when i say "I", i use the word generally). The new gear will be a reward from MM gods and it will require you to craft it on top of it.

Now what are my options in here?

A) Run weeks and weeks of heroics, burning my brain and slowly buy the new gear.

B) Throw money into CM, convert them into credits and buy the new gear from the GTN in a couple of days.

C) Uninstall the game.

 

P.S. If you guys are getting triggered by the use of words such as 'white knight" and "P2W", i digress.

Craftable and sellable BiS gear with very limited supply is as far as P2W as a P2P game can go though (since it's easy to convert irl money into in game currency).Not understanding it, means that you are either a white knight (), or naive, or a crafter yourself waiting for the billions to drop like rain, or there are other physical limitations involved.

The end.

 

This game is not new player friendly. I think this should be your point instead of your pay2win premise. You might get further.

 

So if buying CM items and selling them on the GTN is the fastest way for a new player to catch up to grizzled old veterans, what would be a better way? Do you think a new player should be on equal footing compared to someone that has played this game for years (or at least since 5.0)? What about datacron stats that a new player won't have? All the legacy perks that you buy with CC or creds?

Edited September 6, 2018 by Rion_Starkiller

[mhobin]

If you are rolling a new character and immediately wanting to buy level 70 BiS gear (and by the way.. it is not clear at all that the new craftable gear will actually be BiS... that is just an assumption on your part)... you have your priorities wrong in my view.. unless you are also applying a masters datacron.

 

 

 

Actually.. players who do have a wealth plan and do work the plan on an ongoing basis... are already sitting on the needed credits in their legacy bank.. and incur no need to follow your two dimensional approach to converting cash to credits via the GTN..... so in reality.. they are always ahead of your little ploy. This is precisely why some players actually have a wealth plan and work it.. so that they are not subject to the whims of change in an MMO.. and all MMOs change over time. You on the other hand appear to operate from the hand-to-mouth model.. where you do nothing until they announce a new patch and then you get yourself all worked up over being ill prepared to take advantage of what is newly added.

 

As for your alleged options A, B, C... given both your feelings about the matter, and your stated lack of wealth in game due to choices you have personally made... option C may very well be the best choice for you. For others.. not so much.

 

 

 

Sure pal.

 

Your proving our point......players who have not made a diligent wealth plan, and followed it through for years can get the same gear rewards as you by paying real life money. That is P2W.

Edited September 6, 2018 by mhobin