2019 content delayed to 2020 due to great feedback

[Kiesu]

There are a lot of reasons to be dissatisfied with this game, and plenty of justifications to quit paying for it. But if you don't, that's entirely on you and complaining about the developers because you continue to pay a subscription for their game is a farce.

Yes, I agree.

And I would be less dissatisfied if I would actually be paying to play by day, rather than a month or several.

If I could I would absolutely put my sub on ice every time they "didn't think they should work on feedback"... But I cant. Because the sub is for X amount of time. And you just have to wait it out, and even pay for more time if your sub time ended before the update finally came to be. So they're giving us subs plenty of time to come and sit and complain on their sub-only forums when they time and time again extend their updates on our paid time we cant even move.

Edited August 3, 2018 by Kiesu

[Jdast]

So basically you're saying it's perfectly ok for companies to keep extending their development cycles and it's the consumers duty to "fix" their promised date on their own? Yes, we truly do completely disagree on this.

 

Now this is really my last response to you. You're just forum PvP-ing now. I never once said it was okay. But I also don't know how I can change it. I can only control how I respond. I can quit. I can write a nasty forum post. Or I can suck it up and wait until they release it. Given that cost is 50 cents a day, that's pretty easy to do.

 

Adios,

 

Dasty

[Toraak]

So basically you're saying it's perfectly ok for companies to keep extending their development cycles and it's the consumers duty to "fix" their promised date on their own? Yes, we truly do completely disagree on this.

 

There are many reasons for a patch/big release to get delayed Major bugs, or Exploits that need to be fixed are two of the major reasons. With that being said NEVER take a date given by any MMO company as a 100% promise it will be delivered on that date.

 

What the better way to think of it is, If it is released on the date given it is a bonus, if it has a week or 2 delay to fix bugs, them adding due to feedback (which is never a bad thing), or fixing possible exploits it is a good thing. I'd rather have a quality release then something that is done poorly, and rushed out to early.

[lightSaberAddiCt]

So basically you're saying it's perfectly ok for companies to keep extending their development cycles and it's the consumers duty to "fix" their promised date on their own? Yes, we truly do completely disagree on this.

 

Something tells me jdast might be a star citizen backer...

[Kiesu]

Now this is really my last response to you. You're just forum PvP-ing now. I never once said it was okay. But I also don't know how I can change it. I can only control how I respond. I can quit. I can write a nasty forum post. Or I can suck it up and wait until they release it. Given that cost is 50 cents a day, that's pretty easy to do.

 

Adios,

 

Dasty

I... wasn't asking you to do anything about it. What gave you that idea?

I was giving my own solution to their problem, which you didn't agree with. Fair.

I was debating your solution, which was that consumers should "rub a few weeks on it, smileyface".

They're a company that takes rather poor care of their consumers, is what I am saying. I wasn't expecting you to do anything about it- but I wasn't expecting anyone to defend and/or undermine their repeated bad behavior, either. Hence my back-and-fort on this. Didn't mean to come out as hostile, or anything. Just disagreeing with you here.

 

Something tells me jdast might be a star citizen backer...

Oh god don't even go there.

Edited August 3, 2018 by Kiesu

[PennyAnn]

This is what I mean about undermining bad behavior. Shaming consumers about "not being able to pay 50 cents a day". Aren't you the white knight.

 

It's about principle. It's about getting your orders done and shipped in time. It's your company's image.

People often sub before expansions hit, to check their characters, do whatever before all the changes come in. And then the changed don't come in...

This is how I do my subs. I literally calculated the the perfect time to sub before KOTET so I could get the start of the expansion and winter event fin in one and the same sub, so if I didn't like what i subbed for I could get off in a timely fashion. They stated these dates as facts to rely upon. When these dates are changed and I didn't get to play what i planned to pay for... yeah, they're doing a poop job. Hence my reluctance against sub model and favor for buy-to-play. I don't want to pay for their incompetence, I want to pay for the epic stuff they make for us. Theres a big difference there.

Maybe you are one of those people who like to throw money at services you dont use, and that's fine. But companies shouldn't rely on everyone being like that, not should they exploit those who do continuously.

 

I get what you're saying here, but I think Dasty's point is: You do not have to sub to this game. If they are "doing a poop job" then it's really easy - Don't sub. Don't give them money if you are reluctant about their sub model. Bioware does not work on a buy to pay model for this game and probably never will, so even as much as you (or me, or anyone else really) dislike it, that's how it is.

 

If they never get their orders done and shipped on time, why do you keep ordering from them? If their company's image is constantly tarnished in your eyes by late delivery of content, why do you continue to do business with them? If they keep continually doing something you are not happy about, and not okay with it... and you keep paying a sub anyway, then whose fault is that exactly?

 

It's not excusing them to recognize that you are repeating the same behavior for yourself and expecting different results... especially because the results depend on Bioware releasing things in a timely fashion... which you complain almost never happens. Well then, why do you keep expecting it to happen and paying a sub before the content is released? Why don't you wait until after the content is released, 100% in the game, and THEN sub and play through it?

 

Nothing here is "need to do on day 1", so if you are taking the word of someone who is always wrong about their release dates, how is that their fault, or ours, or us excusing them when we say: "Quit taking their word for it!"?

 

.

Edited August 4, 2018 by PennyAnn

[Lunafox]

Oh goody. It's the weekend. A long weekend.

[LordTurin]

Sooooo why can't folks both acknowledge that a delay of a week is not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things, and understand that given many updates are delayed by a fair amount of time and launched with bugs is a good enough reason to hold BW accountable and write forum posts complaining about it? I mean complaining about it in literally the forum set up to provide feedback to BW (seriously, any game's forums is basically set up to a. provide feedback to the developer and b. communicate with other players) is pretty much the first step when you are upset about something. I'm not quite sure why the answer to a lot of these complaints is "if you don't like it quit", because complaining on the forum is basically "I don't like it, and if you don't fix it, then I'll quit." You give them a chance to fix it, cause you have been satisfied up to this point, and if they don't, then you quit. Seriously, what would happen if everyone who didn't like something quit instead of giving feedback? Poor BW would be sitting there asking "where'd everyone go?"

 

That being said, literally just playing an online game you have to understand that flexibility is needed. I mean even WoW, which has an insane amount of resources compared to SWTOR, had a situation FUBAR with their most recent patch and them attempting to stat squish. These things happen, and you kinda need to "bake it into the mmo cake" as it were when deciding how to handle it. You can either continously subscribe because you are ok with the game as is, and are willing to put up with problems that pop up with every patch (this does not preclude complaing about problems, btw) or you can only sub once the bugs for each patch have been ironed out.

[PennyAnn]

How dare you.

 

Oh.. he dared alright!

 

(<3 you Dasty, even triggered)

[PennyAnn]

Sooooo why can't folks both acknowledge that a delay of a week is not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things, and understand that given many updates are delayed by a fair amount of time and launched with bugs is a good enough reason to hold BW accountable and write forum posts complaining about it?

 

I think most reasonable people can. And do.

 

But when you keep coming back to the forums to complain about the same things and act like you're being ripped off because you're paying a subscription is silly. After a couple of instances of feeling that way, you can easily solve the problem yourself and quit paying that sub that you feel they haven't earned. I think that's all I was trying to get at here.

 

Outrage on the internet is pretty popular though, so I don't know that the reasonable people will ever win this battle.

 

.

[DavidAtkinson]

As a player that is utter fed up with this game i can see this happening. The new awesome content for 2019 will be postponed for some reason.

Preview of amazing content :

.

 

I think it would be better if you left this game and stopped playing.... Why play it if you are utter fed up ?

 

Some of us are still enjoying this game you know...

[Kiesu]

I get what you're saying here, but I think Dasty's point is: You do not have to sub to this game. If they are "doing a poop job" then it's really easy - Don't sub. Don't give them money if you are reluctant about their sub model. Bioware does not work on a buy to pay model for this game and probably never will, so even as much as you (or me, or anyone else really) dislike it, that's how it is.

 

If they never get their orders done and shipped on time, why do you keep ordering from them? If their company's image is constantly tarnished in your eyes by late delivery of content, why do you continue to do business with them? If they keep continually doing something you are not happy about, and not okay with it... and you keep paying a sub anyway, then whose fault is that exactly?

 

It's not excusing them to recognize that you are repeating the same behavior for yourself and expecting different results... especially because the results depend on Bioware releasing things in a timely fashion... which you complain almost never happens. Well then, why do you keep expecting it to happen and paying a sub before the content is released? Why don't you wait until after the content is released, 100% in the game, and THEN sub and play through it?

 

Nothing here is "need to do on day 1", so if you are taking the word of someone who is always wrong about their release dates, how is that their fault, or ours, or us excusing them when we say: "Quit taking their word for it!"?

 

.

If they never got their order shipped and done, I would be allowed a full refund

If I pre-order a game and it ended up not getting released when it should have, you can refund that game. If you ordered a car that isn't ready when it was supposed to, you can pull your order. You can't do any of that with a subscription. Hence the only way to not to get "cheated" is to rely on the times they've given us to be correct. Otherwise, people like this get to come out of the waterworks and go "HAH! your own fault for believing them!", which is a very twisted way of looking at a company selling content to a consumer.

 

"If you don't like what you're getting just don't sub" is exactly what I'm doing. But since i can never put my sub on ice every time their shortsightedness got them in trouble, I might as well sit here and complain with the time I have sub left for. Not like I'm doing anything else with it mu sub right now right now, I've only logged on to do one raid and a couple fps. I find it incredibly annoying when people claim you shouldn't be here complaining if you dont like it and just unsub. Well the money is still running and I'm not playing what I payed for! What do you wan't me to say "I'm really glad you took my money anyway"? Yeah no. Sub later? I'd rather play on holiday than when its over.

 

I wasn't subbed for the majority of the time GOTM was being made. So no I'm actually not repeating the same behavior. There's a devtracker and the forums are open for non-subs to read, guild discords are great pleaces to share your salt "again", don't jump into assumptions. And just because "it's happened before you should have been smarter" really doesn't excuse them out of getting their dates wrong constantly. This consumer-shaming you are doing is weird, they're asking for money for this you know. I'd have nothing to complain about if updates were free after purchase. And don't forget the people who dont even follow the game, looking at a date, going "Oo that's a nice update I'll go check it out!" they log in and even the launcher won't tell them the update they came for isn't actually in effect yet or why.

 

Outrage on the internet is pretty popular though, so I don't know that the reasonable people will ever win this battle.

Yeah, and the company will suffer as more and more subs go elsewhere for more stable content. Victory!

Edited August 4, 2018 by Kiesu

[LordTurin]

If they never got their order shipped and done, I would be allowed a full refund

If I pre-order a game and it ended up not getting released when it should have, you can refund that game. If you ordered a car that isn't ready when it was supposed to, you can pull your order. You can't do any of that with a subscription. Hence the only way to not to get "cheated" is to rely on the times they've given us to be correct. Otherwise, people like this get to come out of the waterworks and go "HAH! your own fault for believing them!", which is a very twisted way of looking at a company selling content to a consumer.

 

I think you are actually misunderstanding some finance facets. And that's totally fine, it's super confusing.

 

Crowdfunding (which Star Citizen is for the most part) is basically a donation. So if Star Citizen just goes belly up, and never gets published, you are completely out of whatever money you put into it.

 

Pre-order is the promise of a finished product at some point in the future. It doesn't actually promise the quality of the game. This is why a lot of people lobby against pre-ordering games, because it lowers the end quality, since there is a huge chunk of people who already paid for the game, so if you pre-ordered "Sim City 2500" then they could send you a game that is literally a picture of a rock, and say "Global warming wiped out the planet, this is what's left, and there is nothing you can do" and you are screwed.

 

If you order an actual product such as a car (which is NOT what you are doing when you are crowdfunding/donating to Star Citizen) you are buying an actual product that exists. You are not giving money to promote the development of that product, you are doing a transaction where you trade your money for that product. It is exactly like going to the grocery store and buying a gallon of milk.The only difference is the delivery time. But the product exists, and just needs to get to you (NOT crowdfunding, where the product doesn't exist, you are just hoping it will in the future) (and btw, chances are pretty good that the contract you sign when you buy a car will specify that the car may not actually be available at the time they say it will, and it's not the dealers fault, so you are still on the hook to pay for the car. Oftentimes the dealer will allow you to back out of the deal in order to maintain a good reputation, but they are rarely required to by law).

 

Finally subscriptions are where you pay money for the continued access of a product AS IS. There are 0 guarantees that the product will continue to grow or improve. You can hope they do, or lobby the owner to improve their product or you will unsubscribe (as I explained in my previous post, this is a completely acceptable alternative) but you do not have any "rights" to an improved product in the future, no matter what they say they are planning. If they don't deliver in the future, you can cancel your subscription, but during the time you had the subscription, you had access to content they were providing at the time you were a subscriber, so you don't have any recourse. It's not cheating, its just as a subscriber, the only thing you have access to is what is provided at the moment in time you are a subscriber. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

Hope this clears some stuff up, if anything is not clear, let me know and I'll try to clear it up (it's confusing, I know).

Edited August 4, 2018 by LordTurin

[Kiesu]

I think you are actually misunderstanding some finance facets. And that's totally fine, it's super confusing.

 

Crowdfunding (which Star Citizen is for the most part) is basically a donation. So if Star Citizen just goes belly up, and never gets published, you are completely out of whatever money you put into it.

I'm not sure why you are quoting me and lecturing me about Star Citizen when I've never said a word about it in this entire thread

 

I pre-ordered Xcom trough GOG and they had some serious issues delivering codes on time. The same happened later again with some other title I cant remember from the top of my head. Both times consumers would be fully refunded if they wished during the wait time. You absolutely can refund preorders that didn't get delivered, it only depends on where you ordered them from as the fine print is different in different stores. Read the fine print!

 

And yeah sub model doesn't guarantee you anything. You'd just think the devs would learn from their mistakes some time rather than repeat the same mishap over and over. Because it's starting to look like they're not taking any effort to correct this behavior I'm going to assume they're fully aware but don't intend to do anything about it. No wonder the subs based on game activity levels are at all time low.

I was excited to get PVPing again, I guess I'm not excited enough to excuse this... "mistake". "Again".

Edited August 4, 2018 by Kiesu

[LordAppius]

I think it would be better if you left this game and stopped playing.... Why play it if you are utter fed up ?

 

Some of us are still enjoying this game you know...

 

Cause i had to get my pvp rank. Since i pay for this game that has received no meaningful content since god knows when i have the right to express dismat with its current state.

 

The expansion will be postponed, the new content will be recycled crap and the returning companions /after what 4 years, what a joke xD) will be as crap as the previous ones. Thank god bioware still gives some rewards to pvpers because if not for that there would be nothing interesting. Ops are boring as hell. no matter the dificulty, they are basically more of the same tank and spank with little to new mechanics. There hasn't been anything that is groundbreaking in this game for ages, apart for the stuff they often release in the cartel market. The new house is a dead idea because most pvpers already left so that "arena" will be as alive as iokath.

 

From bad decisions to really poor ones this is going no where. Since i see more constructive feedback on dulfy than here, which most times is ppl praising the sticks that the developers throw at them, i m still trying to understand why ppl praise the crumbles that are thrown .... Perfect idea would be to fire all the incompetent ppl runing this game and just replace them, But hey quoting Musco "the community won't have to wait 2 years for a new ops" Guess he and some other ppl should try to be more professional and not make empty promisses, but like many who play this game unless we praise them the flood of white knights will crawl from their dungeons and say how amazing this is.

 

If you can't accept that some ppl have a crap opinion about this game move on.

[xordevoreaux]

Cause i had to get my pvp rank. Since i pay for this game that has received no meaningful content since god knows when i have the right to express dismat with its current state.

 

The expansion will be postponed, the new content will be recycled crap and the returning companions /after what 4 years, what a joke xD) will be as crap as the previous ones. Thank god bioware still gives some rewards to pvpers because if not for that there would be nothing interesting. Ops are boring as hell. no matter the dificulty, they are basically more of the same tank and spank with little to new mechanics. There hasn't been anything that is groundbreaking in this game for ages, apart for the stuff they often release in the cartel market. The new house is a dead idea because most pvpers already left so that "arena" will be as alive as iokath.

 

From bad decisions to really poor ones this is going no where. Since i see more constructive feedback on dulfy than here, which most times is ppl praising the sticks that the developers throw at them, i m still trying to understand why ppl praise the crumbles that are thrown .... Perfect idea would be to fire all the incompetent ppl runing this game and just replace them, But hey quoting Musco "the community won't have to wait 2 years for a new ops" Guess he and some other ppl should try to be more professional and not make empty promisses, but like many who play this game unless we praise them the flood of white knights will crawl from their dungeons and say how amazing this is.

 

If you can't accept that some ppl have a crap opinion about this game move on.

 

People with crap opinions must recognize that the more they invest in the energy to show just how sour they are about the game... the more likely they'll get flak for insisting on playing it. If you hate the game this much, the act of moving is on you.

 

Enjoy wherever you go.

Edited August 4, 2018 by xordevoreaux

[CraigOnXD]

wasnt this update scheduled for early july in the roadmap? they delayed it by 1 month and plebs are happy af that it gets delayed by another week lol hahahahah

[Andryah]

So basically you're saying it's perfectly ok for companies to keep extending their development cycles and it's the consumers duty to "fix" their promised date on their own? Yes, we truly do completely disagree on this.

 

Uh.. no.. he is being pragmatic, and you are being rigidly idealistic.

 

You are so blinded by your idealism that you cannot even listen to what he said. He basically stated that you can never count on a release date of a game patch in an MMO, and as such.. you should be somewhat flexible with your planning around said patch. Nor do players have any control over it or the ability to influence it. Nothing more nothing less.

 

I get it.. your idealism is being used as a weapon against the studio for you being disappointed that they delayed a patch to address last minute changes and fixes (something that most players not only give them some slack for doing, but in some cases have been begging them to do so for years now). What exactly does your idealism gain you though? It's not like it forces the studio to stick to a firm schedule.

 

Besides... this studio has been raged upon by players for years for sticking to a release date no matter what and letting bad bugs and missing features into the live servers. I personally do not like delays in schedules any more than the next player.... but I am mature enough to understand that when there are solid reasons to delay a release to address real issues or features.... it IS the right thing to do.

Edited August 4, 2018 by Andryah

[Andryah]

There are many reasons for a patch/big release to get delayed Major bugs, or Exploits that need to be fixed are two of the major reasons. With that being said NEVER take a date given by any MMO company as a 100% promise it will be delivered on that date.

 

What the better way to think of it is, If it is released on the date given it is a bonus, if it has a week or 2 delay to fix bugs, them adding due to feedback (which is never a bad thing), or fixing possible exploits it is a good thing. I'd rather have a quality release then something that is done poorly, and rushed out to early.

 

/Endorsed.

[Andryah]

wasnt this update scheduled for early july in the roadmap? they delayed it by 1 month and plebs are happy af that it gets delayed by another week lol hahahahah

 

Roadmap dates are always "placeholders" to give a general range for a release... NOT a firm commitment.

 

If you are treating or insisting that roadmaps be firm absolute commitments (either in terms of content or schedule), the disappointment that you create on your end about it .. that is on you.

[Andryah]

I get what you're saying here, but I think Dasty's point is: You do not have to sub to this game. If they are "doing a poop job" then it's really easy - Don't sub. Don't give them money if you are reluctant about their sub model. Bioware does not work on a buy to pay model for this game and probably never will, so even as much as you (or me, or anyone else really) dislike it, that's how it is.

 

^ Extremely well stated PennyAnn.

[casirabit]

wasnt this update scheduled for early july in the roadmap? they delayed it by 1 month and plebs are happy af that it gets delayed by another week lol hahahahah

 

They actually gave us a date of July 31 for the stronghold to be released when they got on the test center and then delayed it for 1 week to add some more items to it. Not a big deal really.

 

Really sounds like someone is jealous because they listened to some feedback about the stronghold.

 

As far as the new expansion, I could have sworn there has not been a date set yet so how can it be delayed when a date hasn't been set yet.

Edited August 5, 2018 by casirabit

[Kiesu]

Uh.. no.. he is being pragmatic, and you are being rigidly idealistic.

Nah, that's me expecting the same kind of commitment to schedules literally every other MMO or other such game with ungoing updates do. Me pointing out that SWTOR is one of the biggest games to continuously delay content for same reasons over and over again, with no adjustment to these obvious shortcoming on their part, is not me being idealistic; it's just me pointing out all of that i just spelled out over multiple posts. Weird how you missed it.

 

Idealism theories are mainly divided into two groups. Subjective idealism takes as its starting point the given fact of human consciousness seeing the existing world as a combination of sensation. Objective idealism posits the existence of an objective consciousness which exists before and, in some sense, independently of human ones.

You should probably read more on philosophy before stating your understanding as factual.

 

I'm being the opposite here, pointing to past evidence and on their inability to change their behavior over a long period of time. I'm a pragmatist. You won't find an ideological comment in this thread by me, everything is pointed to actions that are or were in effect and predictions/conclusions based on that past evidence, and even offered my own solution to the problem. It's the opposite of what ideologist do. And I don't see you even attempting to contribute either.

Edited August 4, 2018 by Kiesu

[Andryah]

People with crap opinions must recognize that the more they invest in the energy to show just how sour they are about the game... the more likely they'll get flak for insisting on playing it. If you hate the game this much, the act of moving is on you.

 

Enjoy wherever you go.

 

I would wager that these sorts of players can and will have a bad attitude about any MMO they decide to play. It's as though they actually enjoy being unhappy somehow and expressing it day in and day out.

 

I personally saw this when TSW launched years ago and players here said they were dropping the "dead SWTOR" and going to go play TSW. And.. not surprisingly... over in the TSW forum.... I saw some of these same players (they used the exact same forum handle AND rhetoric) and plowed the exact same negative rhetoric about TSW in the TSW forum as well.

 

They are like a toxic migration that moves from one MMO to the next... and as long as they have other toxic players to bounce their rhetoric around with... they seem content to camp the MMO and it's forum and continue to complain and rant about whatever MMO it is.

Edited August 4, 2018 by Andryah

[kodrac]

Cause i had to get my pvp rank.

 

Makes perfect sense.

Edited August 4, 2018 by kodrac