Charles Boyd Interview (Emperor's Body, Returning Characters, Vowrawn, Lore)

[DarkEcIipse]

Guess Bounty Hunter & Smugglers are getting the finger once again....

[JamagsAwesome]

All eight class stories happen in the same continuity, but after that, there's only one story for each side, and then only one story overall. Thus, there's only one person who takes down Malgus, only one hero of SoR and only one Outlander, and that is whatever character you are playing at that time. (etc.)

 

Ah, OK. I got all that. My concern was that the post I was quoting specifically said "KIA," not "disappeared under ambiguous circumstances."

 

As for the topic of going back to Republic vs. Empire, I have mixed feelings. I overall prefer the Republic, but what's entertaining about the Empire is that they make interesting villains. When I start an Imperial class story, it's because I want to play the bad guy for a little while, even if it's a particularly nice bad guy. Post timeskip, the writers seem to be trying to sell the two factions as morally equivalent rivals fighting over petty political differences. If my Republic characters are going to go back to fighting the Empire, I want to be the hero and I want the Empire to be the villain. If my Imperial characters are going to go back to trying to conquer the Republic, I want to be evil and I want my enemies to be suitably honorable.

 

I mean, the Empire is the private playground of a cult of megalomaniacal backstabbers. They happily take slaves, commit genocide, and enforce multiple different flavors of caste system, all on a scale that the Republic at its worst has never replicated. There is no moral equivalency to be had here, and even if there is, it just means that both factions average out to be equally dislikable, which is exactly what we got on Iokath.

 

So do I want to go back to Republic vs. Empire? Yes... but not like this.

[IoNonSoEVero]

Ah, OK. I got all that. My concern was that the post I was quoting specifically said "KIA," not "disappeared under ambiguous circumstances."

 

As for the topic of going back to Republic vs. Empire, I have mixed feelings. I overall prefer the Republic, but what's entertaining about the Empire is that they make interesting villains. When I start an Imperial class story, it's because I want to play the bad guy for a little while, even if it's a particularly nice bad guy. Post timeskip, the writers seem to be trying to sell the two factions as morally equivalent rivals fighting over petty political differences. If my Republic characters are going to go back to fighting the Empire, I want to be the hero and I want the Empire to be the villain. If my Imperial characters are going to go back to trying to conquer the Republic, I want to be evil and I want my enemies to be suitably honorable.

 

I mean, the Empire is the private playground of a cult of megalomaniacal backstabbers. They happily take slaves, commit genocide, and enforce multiple different flavors of caste system, all on a scale that the Republic at its worst has never replicated. There is no moral equivalency to be had here, and even if there is, it just means that both factions average out to be equally dislikable, which is exactly what we got on Iokath.

 

So do I want to go back to Republic vs. Empire? Yes... but not like this.

 

I actually prefer the way the writers have portrayed the Empire and Republic, with widespread corruption in both factions and people trying to do the right thing on both sides. Painting one side as villains only and one side as 'the good guys' is tiresome and unrealistic.

 

I mean, in the Jedi stories, there's a village that is left to rot on Tython until the Jedi need something, because they are there illegally. On Ord Mantell you have Republic soldiers stealing and menacing people, and you have a camp of refugees right outside the Republic base that can't get medicine for sick children, so they're stealing it. On Coruscant half the planet seems to be a gangland and you have security shrugging about people being taken and sold into slavery by the Justicars. The Jedi are intolerant of any other Force users besides themselves.

 

The Jedi are protecting the Foundry, which is planning genocide (killing anyone with Sith heritage, which is 98% of the Imperial population). Characters repeatedly talk about killing all Sith (Ashara says this, and it comes up in the Jedi Knight story too). Saresh is as corrupt as they come, and some of the first side quests in the game on Coruscant are about taking down (or not) corrupt senators. On Taris there are Republic officials who are siphoning off enough money that their troops are starved and worked to death (the guy who says he's been there for five years on a one year tour; the ship that crashes because the officer took the money for repairs). On Belsavis they're experimenting on prisoners and also holding people in jail for life because *their parents* did something. The Power Guard program on Nar Shaddaa that is so monstrous started out as a REPUBLIC program, and there's the general you meet early on who is invested heavily in weaponry that can wipe out planets. On Quesh the Republic is colluding with the Hutts to manufacture drugs.

 

And during the Eternal Empire, the Republic sided with Zakuul, which committed genocide, took slaves and subjugated the galaxy. That alone is enough to make even my Republic characters side Empire on Iokath.

 

The point being, I don't think either side can be painted as pure, and both sides do have a lot of abhorrent activities. I much prefer when we don't have good and bad sides, but a mixture of grey on both, and it makes it a lot more fun to play, for me at least.

Edited June 24, 2018 by IoNonSoEVero

[QuinlanSaathis]

I have not used a podcast before so forgive my ignorance.

Does anyone know why this one #47 is not available as a podcast?

The last one on their list is #46, why would a PODcast channel publish to Twitch first and not its PODcast?

[FlameYOL]

I actually prefer the way the writers have portrayed the Empire and Republic, with widespread corruption in both factions and people trying to do the right thing on both sides. Painting one side as villains only and one side as 'the good guys' is tiresome and unrealistic.

 

I mean, in the Jedi stories, there's a village that is left to rot on Tython until the Jedi need something, because they are there illegally. On Ord Mantell you have Republic soldiers stealing and menacing people, and you have a camp of refugees right outside the Republic base that can't get medicine for sick children, so they're stealing it. On Coruscant half the planet seems to be a gangland and you have security shrugging about people being taken and sold into slavery by the Justicars. The Jedi are intolerant of any other Force users besides themselves.

 

The Jedi are protecting the Foundry, which is planning genocide (killing anyone with Sith heritage, which is 98% of the Imperial population). Characters repeatedly talk about killing all Sith (Ashara says this, and it comes up in the Jedi Knight story too). Saresh is as corrupt as they come, and some of the first side quests in the game on Coruscant are about taking down (or not) corrupt senators. On Taris there are Republic officials who are siphoning off enough money that their troops are starved and worked to death (the guy who says he's been there for five years on a one year tour; the ship that crashes because the officer took the money for repairs). On Belsavis they're experimenting on prisoners and also holding people in jail for life because *their parents* did something. The Power Guard program on Nar Shaddaa that is so monstrous started out as a REPUBLIC program, and there's the general you meet early on who is invested heavily in weaponry that can wipe out planets. On Quesh the Republic is colluding with the Hutts to manufacture drugs.

 

And during the Eternal Empire, the Republic sided with Zakuul, which committed genocide, took slaves and subjugated the galaxy. That alone is enough to make even my Republic characters side Empire on Iokath.

 

The point being, I don't think either side can be painted as pure, and both sides do have a lot of abhorrent activities. I much prefer when we don't have good and bad sides, but a mixture of grey on both, and it makes it a lot more fun to play, for me at least.

 

I agree with you there, as much as the Empire is the evil to be defeated in Star Wars it is always nice to have nuances and show that both sides have corruption. The way the writers portrayed Saresh really reminds me of how Darth Sidious slowly took control of the corrupt Republic of his time and turned into a militaristic government, except Sareh wasn't doing it for the Sith Grand Plan, she was doing because in her twisted head she thought she was doing the right thing and that the Empire must be destroyed at whatever the cost, even if the Republic has to step to their level.

[HuaRya]

Except people liked Rogue One well enough and it did well. Solo flopped because Star Wars' primary fanbase is sick of being alienated and are boycotting it.

 

I was glad to read they were putting all future releases on hold and stating they learned their lesson with 'experimental' Directors. Star Wars was a 4 Billion purchase because it included everyone in the fan base. Not excluding the core base that kept the force fires alive for 40+ years. I applaud youtube channels like Comic Book Pro Secrets, Mauler, Voxis, John Talks Star Wars, Geeks and Gamers for giving Lucasfilm a moment of clarity.

 

I'll also applaud when JJ retcons Luke giving him a Gandalf the Grey to Gandalf the White treatment.

[Sarova]

Except people liked Rogue One well enough and it did well. Solo flopped because Star Wars' primary fanbase is sick of being alienated and are boycotting it.

That and the choice of actor to play Solo was abysmal. Rogue One was pretty good and I enjoyed VII 'The Force Awakens'. I think Disney thought it would be a money spinner like the Marvel Universe is for the younger age group, however the children and under 30s (and their friends) in my extended family (and there are a lot of us, let alone the friends) love Marvel & DC but have no interest in SW. It's the older age-group in our circle that loved the original IV, V &VI films that love SW but the Solo film was not targeted at us. Don't know whether anyone else has that in their circle of people.

 

The Emperor's Body

 

Interviewer: One thing that's always kinda bugged me is - they kind said that their job was to take care of the body of the Empror. What is their job NOW? What was their job during Valkorion's reign?

 

Charles: So a little of that is something I'm planning on getting into in an update coming u, so I don't want to get into it too much, but in terms of - There is a story of the emperor's original body that I want to tell. And so that would [?] into what their job is now. We see the servant that shows up in Nathema, and obviously, by that point in the story, he feels like there's nothing else for him to do but find you and murder you. So it's gunna be - It'll have to be a little bit of a flashback, that story, but dealing with that is something I really want to get in to. I think that's all I can say about it. [...] I've always thought there was this fascinating notion - somewhere, there is a body, that was hidden that was his, that was his original one, that still exists. Horrifying, desiccated, form after all these years, that he's kept it alive and that it's important to him and to his sort of connection to this plane of existence. He needs it for some reason - or at least he feels like he does. I've always been fascinated by that and I'm looking forward to delving in to it. It's not likely to be a central part of the story line, it's really going to be about Republic vs Empire, it's not about everyone fighting the Emperor himself anymore. But it's definitely something I want to dive in to.

This is a terrible idea and I'm out unless it's a "bonus chapter" type thing that can be ignored. It's really annoying how this game's designers/developers seem hell bent on putting things in the game that only they want and ignoring what the players want or would enjoy more

Edited June 24, 2018 by Sarova

[OldVengeance]

Lots of players would be interested in seeing that.

[JamagsAwesome]

I actually prefer the way the writers have portrayed the Empire and Republic, with widespread corruption in both factions and people trying to do the right thing on both sides. Painting one side as villains only and one side as 'the good guys' is tiresome and unrealistic.

 

I mean, in the Jedi stories, there's a village that is left to rot on Tython until the Jedi need something, because they are there illegally. On Ord Mantell you have Republic soldiers stealing and menacing people, and you have a camp of refugees right outside the Republic base that can't get medicine for sick children, so they're stealing it. On Coruscant half the planet seems to be a gangland and you have security shrugging about people being taken and sold into slavery by the Justicars. The Jedi are intolerant of any other Force users besides themselves.

 

The Jedi are protecting the Foundry, which is planning genocide (killing anyone with Sith heritage, which is 98% of the Imperial population). Characters repeatedly talk about killing all Sith (Ashara says this, and it comes up in the Jedi Knight story too). Saresh is as corrupt as they come, and some of the first side quests in the game on Coruscant are about taking down (or not) corrupt senators. On Taris there are Republic officials who are siphoning off enough money that their troops are starved and worked to death (the guy who says he's been there for five years on a one year tour; the ship that crashes because the officer took the money for repairs). On Belsavis they're experimenting on prisoners and also holding people in jail for life because *their parents* did something. The Power Guard program on Nar Shaddaa that is so monstrous started out as a REPUBLIC program, and there's the general you meet early on who is invested heavily in weaponry that can wipe out planets. On Quesh the Republic is colluding with the Hutts to manufacture drugs.

 

And during the Eternal Empire, the Republic sided with Zakuul, which committed genocide, took slaves and subjugated the galaxy. That alone is enough to make even my Republic characters side Empire on Iokath.

 

The point being, I don't think either side can be painted as pure, and both sides do have a lot of abhorrent activities. I much prefer when we don't have good and bad sides, but a mixture of grey on both, and it makes it a lot more fun to play, for me at least.

 

OK, you raise some fair points, but I'd still like to point some things out.

 

1: The Republic's certainly not purely good, sure, but treating the Empire and its enforcers as anything less than evil is absurd, which is my main point. Plus, while (the following statement is bolded for emphasis) I won't try to argue that the Republic is strictly good, I don't think they're as bad as you've made them out to be.

2: Why would anyone want to settle in an extremely remote Flesh Raider-infested wilderness where the galactic power with jurisdiction has made it clear that you aren't welcome? It's been a while since I've done that bit of Tython, but I recall wondering just what the Twi'leks were doing there of all places.

3: On Ord Mantell, the dilemma is that the Republic has to choose between supporting the war effort and aiding civilians. Keep in mind that if the Republic loses, the Separatists are not going to treat those refugees much better. They didn't make the more moral choice, but what they were doing isn't the kind of pointless cruelty the Empire embraces. Don't really recall the Republic soldiers stealing and threatening people, though, DS Trooper notwithstanding.

4: Coruscant shows that the Republic is weak and inefficient. Compared to massacring slave rebels on Dromund Kaas, Coruscant looks like a paradise.

5: Pre-Zakuul, the only other large-scale Force-using organization in the galaxy is the Sith. See also: megalomaniacal backstabbers. The Jedi's more totalitarian tendencies, while morally questionable, stem from legitimate concerns about what happens to Force-users who aren't trained to keep themselves under control.

6: I've never run the Foundry story arc, so I can't comment on it all that well, but I thought that that was Revan's rogue pet project and the Republic didn't know how far gone he was?

7: See also: megalomaniacal power-mad slave-taking backstabbers who live to subjugate others. Wiping out the Sith Order is entirely reasonable.

8: Darth Jadus wanted to massacre his own side's civilians because he thought spreading fear was cool. Darth Baras attempted to lie and cheat his way into a hostile takeover of the Empire. Lord Grathan declared open rebellion against the Empire as a way of advancing his career, and NPCs on Dromund Kaas treat this as nothing out of the ordinary. Vitiate was possibly plotting to wipe out all life in the galaxy (or at least conquer it), and had been siphoning funds from one of his Empires to the other for centuries. Darth Acina bowed down to Arcann in return for a figurehead position in charge of the Empire, Philippe Pétain-style. Saresh is extremely corrupt, but can you really say she's as corrupt as they come next to all of that?

9: Taris is a mess. I'll grant you that point.

10: Belsavis is another point in your favor. No argument here.

11: Correction: The Power Guards were a cancelled Republic program. Obviously, the process works, so why would the Republic stop the program when the Empire was perfectly happy to use it? Again, I'm not saying the Republic's wholely good, just better.

12: They're manufacturing combat adrenals, which are portrayed as common and fairly standard military equipment. Working with the Hutts looks pretty bad, though, so I'll give you that.

13: My entire argument was that the Republic's portrayal has shifted post-timeskip. And keep in mind that the Republic only remained neutral, and the Empire only sided with you when it started to look like you were winning.

 

Honestly, a lot of the Republic's problems stem from the Prequels. Within the saga of the movies, the Rebellion are the real heroes, so the Republic had to be sympathetic but just bad enough to deserve what happened to them. That's all well and good for that story, but 3,000 years earlier when the Republic is the only heroic faction we have to work with (other than a nonsensical alliance made up of people with nothing in common but mutual hatred), it wears kind of thin.

 

So, in conclusion (these points lettered instead of numbered to distinguish from the earlier list):

A: The Empire is bad, and is never going to not be bad.

B: The Republic was at one point portrayed as being at least not as bad.

C: The Republic is now being portrayed as equivalent to the Empire.

D: The Eternal Empire is bad too.

E: The Alliance is just a nonsensical mishmash of Imperial, Republic, and Zakuulan personnel held together with nothing but mutual dislike of the EE, and it really seems to have inherited most of the faults of all three factions.

F: Therefore, currently everyone is evil and dislikable and I have no reason to support any side on moral grounds.

[OldVengeance]

I actually prefer the way the writers have portrayed the Empire and Republic, with widespread corruption in both factions and people trying to do the right thing on both sides. Painting one side as villains only and one side as 'the good guys' is tiresome and unrealistic.

 

I mean, in the Jedi stories, there's a village that is left to rot on Tython until the Jedi need something, because they are there illegally. On Ord Mantell you have Republic soldiers stealing and menacing people, and you have a camp of refugees right outside the Republic base that can't get medicine for sick children, so they're stealing it. On Coruscant half the planet seems to be a gangland and you have security shrugging about people being taken and sold into slavery by the Justicars. The Jedi are intolerant of any other Force users besides themselves.

 

The Jedi are protecting the Foundry, which is planning genocide (killing anyone with Sith heritage, which is 98% of the Imperial population). Characters repeatedly talk about killing all Sith (Ashara says this, and it comes up in the Jedi Knight story too). Saresh is as corrupt as they come, and some of the first side quests in the game on Coruscant are about taking down (or not) corrupt senators. On Taris there are Republic officials who are siphoning off enough money that their troops are starved and worked to death (the guy who says he's been there for five years on a one year tour; the ship that crashes because the officer took the money for repairs). On Belsavis they're experimenting on prisoners and also holding people in jail for life because *their parents* did something. The Power Guard program on Nar Shaddaa that is so monstrous started out as a REPUBLIC program, and there's the general you meet early on who is invested heavily in weaponry that can wipe out planets. On Quesh the Republic is colluding with the Hutts to manufacture drugs.

 

And during the Eternal Empire, the Republic sided with Zakuul, which committed genocide, took slaves and subjugated the galaxy. That alone is enough to make even my Republic characters side Empire on Iokath.

 

The point being, I don't think either side can be painted as pure, and both sides do have a lot of abhorrent activities. I much prefer when we don't have good and bad sides, but a mixture of grey on both, and it makes it a lot more fun to play, for me at least.

 

The level corruption in the Republic is not even remotely comparable to the Empire. And the writers haven't ever been trying to be even handed. And that's aside from the fact that one side is a democracy open to all species and the other is a racist slave owning society ruled by sadistic class of backstabbing authoritarians who have absolute power.

 

Every single Imperial world has multiple quests far worse than any on Republic worlds. And in most cases the player has no choice but to participate in those evil activities, while on the Republic planetary quests, the player is usually putting an end to whatever is wrong. And that's not even getting into what they Empire is doing during the Republic quests.

 

Its not half of Coruscant that is ruled by gangs. It's explicitly stated by Garza, I think, that most of the planet is safe, there are only a few sectors like that. And I should point out that they are like that because the Republic still hasn't recovered from the damage that the Empire caused, and the Republic was struggling with the manpower required to police the all. The Power Guard program was questionable, but only when the Empire used it did it become monstrous. The Republic used only volunteers. And there were hundreds of people lining up for it because the Empire conquered their homes. The Empire stole the project and started wiping the minds of victims or trying to torture them into obedience. Also "colluding with the Hutts to manufacture drugs" makes it sound like the Republic was secretly plotting to sell illegal narcotics to civilians. What they were actually doing was collaborating with some Hutt families to manufacture stimulants and medpacks for their soldiers in the coming war.

 

-Dromund Kass features unavoidable poisoning of slave rebellions. As well as constant destructive power plays from sadistic megalomaniacs like Grathan. Not to mention it establishes how Sith can and do murder citizens for fun and there is literally nothing anyone can do about it. It only becomes a crime when Sith are tricked into killing other Sith.

 

-Imperial Balmorra features crushing freedom fighters, and also includes terrorizing the populace and intentionally blowing up children with grenades.

 

-Imperial Nar Shadda features an alien group that describes how the Empire brutally conquered their worlds and murdered and enslaved their children.

 

-Imperial Tatooine includes unavoidably murdering or enslaving native Jawas fighting against Imperial oppression.

 

-Imperial Taris features slaughtering colonists trying to make a devastated world livable again, which also includes deliberately infecting the with the Rakghoul virus and destroying toxic waste processing facilities to blight the soil. And of course, it was a Sith Lord that destroyed Taris and everyone on it in the first place.

 

-Imperial Belsavis is a quest about freeing some of the most monstrously evil Sith Lords that ever lived. It also features a scene where an Imperial scientist is jealous that he didn't get to participate in the experiments.

 

-Imperial Corellia is about brutally conquering the planet, while Republic Corellia is about liberating it.

 

And that's not even getting into the class stories. The Jedi Knight story features no less than FIVE attempts at genocide in Chapter One alone*. And in the case of Uphrades, Darth Angral succeeded and killed millions of people.

 

The Sith Empire has always been portrayed cartoonishly evil. The list of their atrocities is almost endless: the Sith who tries to slaughter defenseless colonists on Taris in the Knight story, the Empire bombing civilians Tatooine in the Trooper story, the Empire's extermination factories on Nar Shadda, the insanity and murder that Lord Vivicar intentionally spread around the galaxy, the madness plague that Lord Fullminis tried to spread on Voss, Lord Nefarid using the Death Mark to kill innocents just to taunt the Knight, Darth Jadus plotting to kill hundreds of thousands of his own people in order to "plant terror and hatred in every heart," Darth Tormen's monstrously brutal tactics, I could go on and on and on.

 

Plus, if you are going to count Republic figures like Saresh who's corruption eventually comes at the expense of the Republic itself, you should probably also include Vitiate and his quests to consume all life in the galaxy as well.

 

Also the Republic didn't "side with Zakuul." The Eternal Empire invaded their territory, crushed their military and killed millions of their citizens in the process of conquering the galaxy. Blaming them for Zakuul subjugating the galaxy is the textbook definition of blaming the victim.

 

If you enjoy shades of Grey stories, then that's fine. But TOR is not really one of those stories. If the story isn't Black and White, it's jet Black and light Grey.

 

* Maybe I misremembered counting, but there's at least three in Chapter 1 and about seven overall.

Edited June 26, 2018 by OldVengeance

[IoNonSoEVero]

We'll have to agree to disagree on this, so it will be my last reply, but to address a few points:

 

OK, you raise some fair points, but I'd still like to point some things out.

 

2: Why would anyone want to settle in an extremely remote Flesh Raider-infested wilderness where the galactic power with jurisdiction has made it clear that you aren't welcome? It's been a while since I've done that bit of Tython, but I recall wondering just what the Twi'leks were doing there of all places.

 

If you talk to the Twi'lek matriarch on the spiritual quest, she tells you the Twi'leks were fleeing religious persecution. The Republic has specifically told the Jedi not to help them, and the Jedi just shrug that off. When the Jedi need help from that village, though, they expect it, and they preach a good line about helping others.

 

Basically the Republic's credo seems to be to help people if there's something in it for them, which isn't different than how the Empire works.

 

As to Ord Mantell, why are there Separatists at all? They do not WANT to be in the Republic, and the Republic is trying to shut that down and take over anyway. If they stopped trying to take over a planet that doesn't want to be in their government, they wouldn't have the issue. It's no different from the Empire trying to take over planets.

 

Wiping out a religious order because one disagrees with their code - no, it actually is not reasonable to wipe out the Sith Order because the Jedi disagree with them philosophically. The Foundry also wants to wipe out 98% of the Imperial population, anyone with Sith (as in the alien race) blood. That's genocide, any way one wants to spin it, and genocide is not reasonable. The Republic doesn't have the right to wipe out religious or ethnic groups on any grounds.

 

So, in conclusion (these points lettered instead of numbered to distinguish from the earlier list):

A: The Empire is bad, and is never going to not be bad.

 

Nope. I completely disagree. Both the Empire and the Republic have both bad and good people working for them. Neither is great. Painting the Empire as evil with nothing else is simplistic. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but I completely disagree.

 

Darth Jadus was mentioned, but he was one Sith, working independently of the Dark Council, and even Imperial Intelligence was against him when they found him out. Grathan was considered an aberration that the Dark Council simply didn't know how to stop, and they had troops watching his compound. One early BH quest is given by an Imperial officer, to rescue or kill his daughter in Grathan's compound. Baras was opposed by at least one person on the Dark Council and nobody objected when he was taken down.

 

As to the Republic's stance with the Eternal Empire, they're NOT neutral. The letter that is intercepted in KOTET says that the Republic is taking a policy of appeasement and cooperation with Zakuul in the hopes that the Alliance and Empire will lose.

 

E: The Alliance is just a nonsensical mishmash of Imperial, Republic, and Zakuulan personnel held together with nothing but mutual dislike of the EE, and it really seems to have inherited most of the faults of all three factions.

F: Therefore, currently everyone is evil and dislikable and I have no reason to support any side on moral grounds.

 

 

 

That's pretty silly. No matter which faction your Outlander comes from, you certainly can have them try to make things better and help as many people as they can. You can opt to use the entire Fleet for humanitarian purposes. For one thing the Alliance doesn't have the dogmatic, blind intolerance for other Force users that the Jedi have.

 

That's true in the class stories, too - no matter what side you are playing.

Edited June 24, 2018 by IoNonSoEVero

[JamagsAwesome]

You've misinterpreted a lot of my points. In situations like this, I usually try to assume it's my fault for not communicating properly, so I'll try to explain.

 

Basically the Republic's credo seems to be to help people if there's something in it for them, which isn't different than how the Empire works.

 

Nope. If you have something the Empire wants? They'll kill you and take it. If you don't? Better hope you're not in their way, or they'll kill you then, and take whatever you do have. If they have to work with you to get what they want? They'll stab you in the back as soon as you're done. Why? Because that's the Sith way. Trust no one, and seize power by any means necessary.

 

As to Ord Mantell, why are there Separatists at all? They do not WANT to be in the Republic, and the Republic is trying to shut that down and take over anyway. If they stopped trying to take over a planet that doesn't want to be in their government, they wouldn't have the issue. It's no different from the Empire trying to take over planets.

 

Keep in mind that most of the Republic-aligned soldiers and civilians on Ord Mantell are also Mantellians. The simple fact that there are Separatists doesn't mean that the entire planet has unilaterally agreed to secede from the Republic.

 

Wiping out a religious order because one disagrees with their code - no, it actually is not reasonable to wipe out the Sith Order because the Jedi disagree with them philosophically. The Foundry also wants to wipe out 98% of the Imperial population, anyone with Sith (as in the alien race) blood. That's genocide, any way one wants to spin it, and genocide is not reasonable. The Republic doesn't have the right to wipe out religious or ethnic groups on any grounds.

 

Either you're conflating two different points or I am. The Sith Order is an organization with decidedly evil ideals - the accumulation of personal power at the expense of all else. The Foundry is not targeting just the Sith Order, it's targeting people of Sith blood, which is a much larger category. I was not condoning the Foundry.

 

Nope. I completely disagree. Both the Empire and the Republic have both bad and good people working for them. Neither is great. Painting the Empire as evil with nothing else is simplistic. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but I completely disagree.

 

Yes, plenty of good people come from the Empire, like Elara Dorne or Lord Praven. In all seriousness, most of the citizens are decent people, and many of the Force-blind Imperials are just doing their jobs, but the Sith run everything, and they are evil. Some Sith are lucid enough to be reasonable and deal with common threats, but they operate a fundamentally oppressive regime.

 

Darth Jadus was mentioned, but he was one Sith, working independently of the Dark Council, and even Imperial Intelligence was against him when they found him out. Grathan was considered an aberration that the Dark Council simply didn't know how to stop, and they had troops watching his compound. One early BH quest is given by an Imperial officer, to rescue or kill his daughter in Grathan's compound. Baras was opposed by at least one person on the Dark Council and nobody objected when he was taken down.

 

I was referring to the idea that the Republic is more corrupt than the Empire. Would you not characterize all of that as corruption on an extreme level?

 

As to the Republic's stance with the Eternal Empire, they're NOT neutral. The letter that is intercepted in KOTET says that the Republic is taking a policy of appeasement and cooperation with Zakuul in the hopes that the Alliance and Empire will lose.

 

And they have... how much choice in this course of action? They have no reason to believe they won't get crushed by Zakuul's stupid unstoppable fleet.

 

That's pretty silly. No matter which faction your Outlander comes from, you certainly can have them try to make things better and help as many people as they can. You can opt to use the entire Fleet for humanitarian purposes. For one thing the Alliance doesn't have the dogmatic, blind intolerance for other Force users that the Jedi have.

 

That's true in the class stories, too - no matter what side you are playing.

 

You work with Sith and Imperials and thus tacitly condone countless prior Sith atrocities. You exploit the loyalty of the Knights of Zakuul, whose ideology is based on blind obedience to an all-powerful dictator. Saresh very nearly co-opted the entire organization, and only your personal intervention halted that. A "light side" Outlander happily works with Arcann, who is personally responsible for most of the Eternal Empire's atrocities. Hell, I received no option to object to Lana's little wisecrack about "interrogation techniques" which pretty blatantly refers to torture. And, of course, since both the Republic and Empire are so bad post-timeskip, the Alliance is guilty of siding with one of the two. Or both, if you switch after Nathema.

[IoNonSoEVero]

You've misinterpreted a lot of my points. In situations like this, I usually try to assume it's my fault for not communicating properly, so I'll try to explain.

 

I said before I would not respond again - it will have to stick this time. I didn't misunderstand you. I just don't agree.

 

Nope. If you have something the Empire wants? They'll kill you and take it. If you don't? Better hope you're not in their way, or they'll kill you then, and take whatever you do have. If they have to work with you to get what they want? They'll stab you in the back as soon as you're done. Why? Because that's the Sith way. Trust no one, and seize power by any means necessary.

 

Except that there are many, many times in the game when you can negotiate, either as a Sith or with a Sith, and they do not stab their allies in the back. Cases in point: Darth Vowrawn continues to support the Wrath even after the Sith Warrior story. Darth Marr supports the Imperials who work with him. Lord Kallig comes back from the dead to help his heir. In the Sith stories you have plenty of choices to ally with people instead of killing them, and those choices are often approved by Imperial officers, such as sparing Axis and the Flame on Nar Shaddaa. Yes, a player can take every DS choice they want, but they don't have to, and they are still Sith.

 

Keep in mind that most of the Republic-aligned soldiers and civilians on Ord Mantell are also Mantellians. The simple fact that there are Separatists doesn't mean that the entire planet has unilaterally agreed to secede from the Republic.

 

But it doesn't mean the entire planet has unilaterally agreed to be there, either. There's a large and vocal group who are violently opposed to the Republic, and the Republic is shooting them down. There's no option to negotiate and get off Ord Mantell; they will join the Republic or die.

 

Either you're conflating two different points or I am. The Sith Order is an organization with decidedly evil ideals - the accumulation of personal power at the expense of all else. The Foundry is not targeting just the Sith Order, it's targeting people of Sith blood, which is a much larger category. I was not condoning the Foundry.

 

There's nothing inherently evil in the Sith Code, if you read it. Sith in the class stories comment that there are infinite ways of interpreting it, which confounds the Jedi. "Through passion I gain strength" for instance. In our own society how often do we tell people to follow their passions when looking for work or personal matters? Power can also be personal things. Having enough money to never work again is power; it doesn't have to be ruling a planet.

 

You said it was reasonable to wipe out the entire Sith Order. Again, calling a religious order evil unilaterally and trying to wipe it out is genocide.

 

I was referring to the idea that the Republic is more corrupt than the Empire. Would you not characterize all of that as corruption on an extreme level?

 

I never said they were more corrupt. I said both sides have issues, and that it is simplistic to take a BAD SIDE! GOOD SIDE! ethos.

 

And they have... how much choice in this course of action? They have no reason to believe they won't get crushed by Zakuul's stupid unstoppable fleet.

 

They have the same choice that the Sith Empire did. The Sith Empire is in a position to be crushed by the Eternal Fleet just as much as the Republic is. The difference is that they make a choice to stand, offer up their own fleet and manpower, and help the Alliance. The Republic does not, and it's sheer cowardice.

 

You work with Sith and Imperials and thus tacitly condone countless prior Sith atrocities. You exploit the loyalty of the Knights of Zakuul, whose ideology is based on blind obedience to an all-powerful dictator. Saresh very nearly co-opted the entire organization, and only your personal intervention halted that. A "light side" Outlander happily works with Arcann, who is personally responsible for most of the Eternal Empire's atrocities. Hell, I received no option to object to Lana's little wisecrack about "interrogation techniques" which pretty blatantly refers to torture. And, of course, since both the Republic and Empire are so bad post-timeskip, the Alliance is guilty of siding with one of the two. Or both, if you switch after Nathema.

 

There's nothing that you do in the course of the Alliance with the Sith Empire that counts as a "Sith atrocity." You don't work directly with the Knights, you fight them.

 

As for Arcann, that is a player choice and I blame the writers for making Arcann some sort of tragic hero, instead of having him killed off or imprisoned as he deserved. But a "light side" Commander doesn't necessarily have to keep him alive. Every one of my Commanders, from Light V to Dark V, have killed Arcann. Every one I bring through KOTET in future will continue to do so. The game's writers set up a situation where Arcann was not held responsible for his crimes, and I'll agree it's a failing of the story, but it doesn't mean every LS commander fell for it.

 

As for siding with one or the other? Blame everyone who was whimpering so much about wanting IMPS VS PUBS 4EVA!!!!! in this game. They tried to steer us off in a direction away from that, and people screamed, so they brought it back. But the nuances are important.

Edited June 24, 2018 by IoNonSoEVero

[OldVengeance]

Ah, OK. I got all that. My concern was that the post I was quoting specifically said "KIA," not "disappeared under ambiguous circumstances."

 

As for the topic of going back to Republic vs. Empire, I have mixed feelings. I overall prefer the Republic, but what's entertaining about the Empire is that they make interesting villains. When I start an Imperial class story, it's because I want to play the bad guy for a little while, even if it's a particularly nice bad guy. Post timeskip, the writers seem to be trying to sell the two factions as morally equivalent rivals fighting over petty political differences. If my Republic characters are going to go back to fighting the Empire, I want to be the hero and I want the Empire to be the villain. If my Imperial characters are going to go back to trying to conquer the Republic, I want to be evil and I want my enemies to be suitably honorable.

 

I mean, the Empire is the private playground of a cult of megalomaniacal backstabbers. They happily take slaves, commit genocide, and enforce multiple different flavors of caste system, all on a scale that the Republic at its worst has never replicated. There is no moral equivalency to be had here, and even if there is, it just means that both factions average out to be equally dislikable, which is exactly what we got on Iokath.

 

So do I want to go back to Republic vs. Empire? Yes... but not like this.

 

Getting back on topic then, we'll have to wait and see how it will play out of course, but Acina did come across as more bloodthirsty than Malcolm on Iokath. Plus, now that Saresh is dead or imprisoned and her puppet chancellor has resigned, the Republic could well be on it's way to eliminating her corruption. I wouldn't quite say they are being portrayed as equivalent yet.

Edited June 24, 2018 by OldVengeance

[FlameYOL]

Getting back on topic then, we'll have to wait and see how it will play out of course, but Acina did come across as more bloodthirsty than Malcolm on Iokath. Plus, now that Saresh is dead or imprisoned and her puppet chancellor has resigned, the Republic could well be on it's way to eliminating her corruption. I wouldn't quite say they are being portrayed as equivalent yet.

 

Her puppet chancellor does send you a letter if you've killed her about how despite his next speech portraying you as an monster he's very grateful you got rid of her, so my guess is he might've tried to reform things, how much he was able to do it I wonder. I guess we'll see what his replacement will do for players who sided with the Empire during Iokath.

[Estelindis]

If you enjoy shades of Grey stories, then that's fine. But TOR is not really one of those stories. If the story isn't Black and White, it's jet Black and light Grey.

A: The Empire is bad, and is never going to not be bad.

B: The Republic was at one point portrayed as being at least not as bad.

C: The Republic is now being portrayed as equivalent to the Empire.

D: The Eternal Empire is bad too.

E: The Alliance is just a nonsensical mishmash of Imperial, Republic, and Zakuulan personnel held together with nothing but mutual dislike of the EE, and it really seems to have inherited most of the faults of all three factions.

F: Therefore, currently everyone is evil and dislikable and I have no reason to support any side on moral grounds.

Snipping for brevity, but I think both of these posts are brilliant. There are certainly some shades of gray in this story-world, with all manner of people on both sides, but overall the Republic and Empire are in no way morally equivalent. (That's part of why I find it so annoying that they behave the same way on Iokath.)

Edited June 25, 2018 by Estelindis

[LadyAdmiral]

I have not used a podcast before so forgive my ignorance.

Does anyone know why this one #47 is not available as a podcast?

The last one on their list is #46, why would a PODcast channel publish to Twitch first and not its PODcast?

 

Hello,

Some podcasts do two different parts - first they record is "live" on twitch so they can interact with their audience while they are recording - for example, answer questions on the topics the audience has. Then they have to take that live recording and edit it down to a nicer version which is placed on the podcast page. I liked the twitch version because I wasn't sure how long it would be until it made it to the podcast webpage! Looks like they still don't have it up yet, the latest episode available is the previous interview podcast.