6.0 - Making the case for World-Building and non-disposable villains

[ZionHalcyon]

After some recent conversations with a good friend who feels the same way as you, I feel more nuanced about this. Personally I feel like good storytelling should have serious potential for heartbreak, some of which should turn out to be actual heartbreak. If bad things never happen, danger and tension don't feel real. And when triumph is achieved in spite of real peril, to me it feels all the more sweet. But lately other people have shown me that even the highest form of storytelling art from my point of view isn't good to them if part of the reason they're reading or playing is to escape from life's troubles for a while. Escapism doesn't have to be a bad word. A fantasy filled with positive surprises, executed well, is surpassingly excellent in its own way.

 

I go through phases of prefacing everything I say with "I think" or "I feel" to respect people's different subjective takes on things, and phases of doing it less because I think (lol) that the simple fact I'm expressing something should make it clear that it's what I personally think or feel and not some grand claim to objectivity. If the way I phrased things in an earlier post made it come across like I was grandiosely informing you about good storytelling from some lofty cloud that I imagined you could only dream of, then I very much apologise, because that's not at all what I meant.

 

What you described is the perfect balance of good writing and good storytelling. A lot of escapism with the occasional "holy ****!" Moments to shake things up.

 

In that way, having the safe The Escapist stories ends up setting up for the unexpected moments where the rug is pulled out from under you and it makes for excellent impact in story writing. A good writer knows how to balance both

[JennyFlynn]

After some recent conversations with a good friend who feels the same way as you, I feel more nuanced about this. Personally I feel like good storytelling should have serious potential for heartbreak, some of which should turn out to be actual heartbreak. If bad things never happen, danger and tension don't feel real. And when triumph is achieved in spite of real peril, to me it feels all the more sweet. But lately other people have shown me that even the highest form of storytelling art from my point of view isn't good to them if part of the reason they're reading or playing is to escape from life's troubles for a while. Escapism doesn't have to be a bad word. A fantasy filled with positive surprises, executed well, is surpassingly excellent in its own way.

 

I go through phases of prefacing everything I say with "I think" or "I feel" to respect people's different subjective takes on things, and phases of doing it less because I think (lol) that the simple fact I'm expressing something should make it clear that it's what I personally think or feel and not some grand claim to objectivity. If the way I phrased things in an earlier post made it come across like I was grandiosely informing you about good storytelling from some lofty cloud that I imagined you could only dream of, then I very much apologise, because that's not at all what I meant.

I very much agree that, to an extent, there should be a potential for heartbreak. Certain events to make us feel that things can go wrong, that there is risk. However, I also believe the writers, in this case, need to be mindful of when to implement such events.

 

Take Darth Marr's demise for example, that really left me gutted. I've played it a dozen times by now and I still get anxious and emotional going through it. He dies, there is nothing we can do about it and it proves none of us are impervious to danger and death, and Darth Marr was quite the symbol and loved/respected man. -- That death was 'good', it is impactful, it touches the player and does what it is meant to without simultaneously ruining someone's desire to ever play again. (Though I am still salty and rather would not have lost him at all, I always enjoyed Marr far more than Satele for example but c'est la vie.)

 

Love Interests, however, should be exempt from this situation. For many, they are too close to us, we care too much about them and losing them actually hurts to a degree of no longer wishing to play. For some it also touches too close to home and turns the game from an escape into a painful confrontation instead.

 

There should be some realistic risk, we're not playing Hello Kitty here but death-situations also shouldn't become the norm to whittle down the number of characters or make a writer's job 'easier'. It shouldn't be a case where every single character could up on the chopping block at any point in time for whichever reason or no reason at all.

[Estelindis]

Love Interests, however, should be exempt from this situation. For many, they are too close to us, we care too much about them and losing them actually hurts to a degree of no longer wishing to play. For some it also touches too close to home and turns the game from an escape into a painful confrontation instead.

I agree with this. I don't think LIs should be immune from danger, but I do think that there should always be some way to save them, some choice that makes sure they stay part of our stories in some form. They're often the most important people to our characters in the whole world, and our characters' tales would become real tragedies if we lost them.

 

Fine if some people decide they want to play a tragedy; that's their prerogative. (Yes, apparently some players of SWs and BHs voluntarily make this choice when it comes to Vette and Torian!) And if they do, the game should actually let them show a full range of emotional reactions to such an event, and have other characters react to it too. Tragedy is a big deal, not a cheap trick. When a character is sacrificed, the emotions should be milked for all they're worth. (Not forced on a character, again, but very much given as an option.)

[SerraShar]

Indeed.

 

I think I know how they can work Jadus back in. Currently you either have Darth Acina as Emperor or Darth Vowrown.

 

When Jadus comes back, and perhaps declares a challenge for the seat of the emperor, if it is Darth Acina, she defends her throne and dies doing so thus letting Jadus ascend.

 

However, Vowrown was always a pragmatist and a survivor. To keep that character around as he is very fascinating and very much loved by many of the people who played the Sith Warrior class, have him willing to take the hit to his reputation and bow out gracefully allowing Jadus to assume the throne, and Vowrown to reclaim his seat on the Dark Council.

 

To set up Darth Jadus as a serious villain, also have him be responsible for killing Jace Malcom if our player hasn't done so already.

 

I get that people will feel like choices no longer matter because the characters who you could kill end up dead anyway, but what I would do is make the fall out of when these characters die influence the story that you are on and how people react to you based on which side you are on.

 

I rather keep Acina as Empress . For once we get a women up there , and we gotta make her take the bucket for Jadus?

 

And beside , Jadus doesn't bring anything new . IF he is still alive as you claim..HE DID RUN AWAY!

 

And under his rule , the SITH do NOT change . It be back to Terror and Muahahahaaha fear meh plot . That thousand of sith did before him . At least with Acina , she is trying to change thing while keeping the Empire strong (Sort of) .

 

To set up Darth Jadus as a serious villain, also have him be responsible for killing Jace Malcom if our player hasn't done so already.

So killing that moron , would make you a real vilain ? I'm sorry . But that is kinda lame from where where I stand .

 

To me , real vilain go on mass killing . Not just kill some washed up should've retired trooper that was in a war a while ago .

 

A real vilain would do also more damage then just take some decorated soldier . No matter how much decoration he has on him .

 

Say like destroy a whole planet , ruin a place that the side you attack care for .

 

Say like destroying Tython , killing all Jedi master and a couples of padawan then take on some of havoc squad . And you can claim you are a real vilain that not just killed the top jedi but crippled and sent a message of fear to the repb .

 

I mean when you think about it , Jadus went BIG when he set his plan in ACT1 . He wasn't gonna kill one single person but ALOT . Therefor if he were to come back..he probably say 'well I was gonna kill 100 last time..let's go x5 and see if it work this time around' .

[SerraShar]

Love Interests, however, should be exempt from this situation. For many, they are too close to us, we care too much about them and losing them actually hurts to a degree of no longer wishing to play. For some it also touches too close to home and turns the game from an escape into a painful confrontation instead.

I disagree . Your companions and romance , should get the risk of being killed as well . Homewhever , the main issue with this BW is the writing pretty much suck .

 

Many times , they could've written it SO much better and they didn't .

 

For exemple , Killing arcann and forcing us to kill Senya as well was a cheap attente to stop us from actually killing him . I mean even giving him redemption doesn't sit well with me . Especially since only Mommy dearest begging for redemption and she lied to us making it look like we are idiots .

 

IF I take the exemple of Arcann . Then yes , the final combat should've been something to remember (not you hiding behind a shield) , and defeat him for real with your own strenght . Then kill him when he can't lift an arm .

 

Not this kneel before me and kill him like that .

 

There are others games where your romance die , and the difference is it's done with taste . Take Neverwinter Night 2 . Both male romances (bishop and casavir , one a ranger evil and one is a paladin lawful good) they both die in the end . But the reasons are completely different . One make a choice and the other do his duty to the end .

 

So pretty much the writing suck . It lack emotions , it lack depth..it lack that something that make you wanna play again and again and talk about that scene and how it made you feel .

[casirabit]

SerraShar;9595000]I rather keep Acina as Empress . For once we get a women up there , and we gotta make her take the bucket for Jadus?

 

And beside , Jadus doesn't bring anything new . IF he is still alive as you claim..HE DID RUN AWAY!

 

And under his rule , the SITH do NOT change . It be back to Terror and Muahahahaaha fear meh plot . That thousand of sith did before him . At least with Acina , she is trying to change thing while keeping the Empire strong (Sort of) .

 

How would that work considering if you side with the Republic, Acina dies just like Jace dies if you side with the Empire so that neither of them would work as they can die in Iokath based on the choices you make on Iokath.

 

 

Acina's death (

)

Jace's death (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap119oD_6yg)

Edited May 7, 2018 by casirabit

[JennyFlynn]

I can't comment on Jadus as Emperor, I'm too biased. My Agent would have gladly kneeled before him and not just out of reverence.

 

But it is clear Acina would not work. She's dead for some, which at the same time makes Vowrawn tricky as for some players he's merely the Minister of Logistics, not Emperor. I believe I read a mail or msg somewhere that Madon stepped down as Supreme Chancellor so who knows what's going on with the Republic but it shouldn't be Satele.

 

Personally, I'd love for my Sith to rule with Vowrawn. Let him sit pretty on the throne while I'm out and about kicking butt.

[Estelindis]

There are others games where your romance die , and the difference is it's done with taste . Take Neverwinter Night 2 . Both male romances (bishop and casavir , one a ranger evil and one is a paladin lawful good) they both die in the end . But the reasons are completely different . One make a choice and the other do his duty to the end .

This is the first time I heard the "rocks fall, everyone dies" described as tasteful.

I think there is actually some open-endedness about some of their fates, by the way. In the first expansion, Ammon Jerro says Casavir died helping others to escape during the cave-in. However, in the second expansion, we learn that Luskans found the body of a paladin left for dead in the ruins' rubble, and took him prisoner for crimes against Luskan (something that would fit with Casavir's background, so I think it's strongly implied he survived).

My personal understanding is that Obsidian writers, particularly Chris Avellone, don't care that much for romance and thus aren't as reluctant to throw it under the bus as writers who really do care. And I prefer ones who care, no matter how good someone like Avellone is in every other way. I am, frankly, a sucker for a good romance. And for happy endings. I just believe in earning our happy endings.

[SerraShar]

How would that work considering if you side with the Republic, Acina dies just like Jace dies if you side with the Empire so that neither of them would work as they can die in Iokath based on the choices you make on Iokath.

 

 

Acina's death (

)

Jace's death (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap119oD_6yg)

 

well Arcann was killed by my DS and yet he came to state the Obvious back to my LS , just as I finished saying 'I believe in Theron!'' ...he walked over to tell me 'You are my daughter!...I mean...You have to believe in Theron! ''

[SerraShar]

I can't comment on Jadus as Emperor, I'm too biased. My Agent would have gladly kneeled before him and not just out of reverence.

 

But it is clear Acina would not work. She's dead for some, which at the same time makes Vowrawn tricky as for some players he's merely the Minister of Logistics, not Emperor. I believe I read a mail or msg somewhere that Madon stepped down as Supreme Chancellor so who knows what's going on with the Republic but it shouldn't be Satele.

 

Personally, I'd love for my Sith to rule with Vowrawn. Let him sit pretty on the throne while I'm out and about kicking butt.

 

Arcann is dead for some...

 

well , in copero...if Acina die . Doesn't he take over , and we hear it over some kind radio or something ?

 

It's the sexy voice of Jadus isn't ? HUH! COME ON! SPILL THA BEANS!

[SerraShar]

This is the first time I heard the "rocks fall, everyone dies" described as tasteful.

I think there is actually some open-endedness about some of their fates, by the way. In the first expansion, Ammon Jerro says Casavir died helping others to escape during the cave-in. However, in the second expansion, we learn that Luskans found the body of a paladin left for dead in the ruins' rubble, and took him prisoner for crimes against Luskan (something that would fit with Casavir's background, so I think it's strongly implied he survived).

My personal understanding is that Obsidian writers, particularly Chris Avellone, don't care that much for romance and thus aren't as reluctant to throw it under the bus as writers who really do care. And I prefer ones who care, no matter how good someone like Avellone is in every other way. I am, frankly, a sucker for a good romance. And for happy endings. I just believe in earning our happy endings.

 

*Shrug*..no gay romance in that game lol so both of casavir and Bishop dying doesn't change much to me . The one I fall for...end up dead..AGAIN! lol

 

well I dunno . I mean at least it was well made..to me at least . Seeing casavir give his life as a paladin fit .

 

I'm all for happy ending . In single player at least , but in Swtor we have LS and DS . So really...both should have the same treatement .

[Quraswren]

SNIP...

Love Interests, however, should be exempt from this situation. For many, they are too close to us, we care too much about them and losing them actually hurts to a degree of no longer wishing to play. For some it also touches too close to home and turns the game from an escape into a painful confrontation instead.

SNIP...

 

I disagree with that.

 

The possibility and eventual death of those LI brings the ultimate feeling danger and tension and can lead to some of the best moments in story telling. The possibility of losing those that you care about bring a lot of excitement to the choices you make and makes those choices carry weight. As long as the story continues to move forward no matter what choice is made and it caters to the choice made (Live or die in as the case may be).

[ZionHalcyon]

I rather keep Acina as Empress . For once we get a women up there , and we gotta make her take the bucket for Jadus?

 

And beside , Jadus doesn't bring anything new . IF he is still alive as you claim..HE DID RUN AWAY!

 

And under his rule , the SITH do NOT change . It be back to Terror and Muahahahaaha fear meh plot . That thousand of sith did before him . At least with Acina , she is trying to change thing while keeping the Empire strong (Sort of) .

 

 

So killing that moron , would make you a real vilain ? I'm sorry . But that is kinda lame from where where I stand .

 

To me , real vilain go on mass killing . Not just kill some washed up should've retired trooper that was in a war a while ago .

 

A real vilain would do also more damage then just take some decorated soldier . No matter how much decoration he has on him .

 

Say like destroy a whole planet , ruin a place that the side you attack care for .

 

Say like destroying Tython , killing all Jedi master and a couples of padawan then take on some of havoc squad . And you can claim you are a real vilain that not just killed the top jedi but crippled and sent a message of fear to the repb .

 

I mean when you think about it , Jadus went BIG when he set his plan in ACT1 . He wasn't gonna kill one single person but ALOT . Therefor if he were to come back..he probably say 'well I was gonna kill 100 last time..let's go x5 and see if it work this time around' .

 

I'm sorry, but did you really just assume Jadus's gender? You don't know what xer identifies as!

 

[Lunafox]

After some recent conversations with a good friend who feels the same way as you, I feel more nuanced about this. Personally I feel like good storytelling should have serious potential for heartbreak, some of which should turn out to be actual heartbreak. If bad things never happen, danger and tension don't feel real. And when triumph is achieved in spite of real peril, to me it feels all the more sweet. But lately other people have shown me that even the highest form of storytelling art from my point of view isn't good to them if part of the reason they're reading or playing is to escape from life's troubles for a while. Escapism doesn't have to be a bad word. A fantasy filled with positive surprises, executed well, is surpassingly excellent in its own way.

 

I go through phases of prefacing everything I say with "I think" or "I feel" to respect people's different subjective takes on things, and phases of doing it less because I think (lol) that the simple fact I'm expressing something should make it clear that it's what I personally think or feel and not some grand claim to objectivity. If the way I phrased things in an earlier post made it come across like I was grandiosely informing you about good storytelling from some lofty cloud that I imagined you could only dream of, then I very much apologise, because that's not at all what I meant.

 

I get what you're saying, there has to be threat and tension, danger, and a real possibility of death in a good story, and Game of Thrones is proof that living on the edge that way can be exciting and addictive. But I've also tried to instill in myself that under no circumstances should I get attached to those characters, cause odds are, they're going to be pushing up daisies as the plot continues (I say this, but I'm still overly attached to Jorah, Dany and Tyrion lol).

 

I was gutted when Darth Marr died and it came very close to driving me from the game. It hurt and I don't want to feel that in a game I'm playing, I want the adventure and excitement, romance, but I don't really need the grief, I have enough of that, enough of worry...I come here for fun. Near death could still drive it home that life is fragile but it would be too much if they suddenly took away one of my precious love interests like Quinn, Theron or Vector (and Scourge if they do make him an LI).

 

Stories can still be fun and thrilling without the specter of death. I enjoy Pride and Prejudice well enough without someone coming in to knife Darcy at the ball to make it more real lol.

 

And I've taken no offense about anything, so no need to worry or apologize, it's all good.

[juliushorst]

A Quibble: Vowran is not necessarily the Emperor Post Iokath. Who lives and dies after that episode depends upon the side you chose. Similar dilemma for the Republic side. BW didn't do themselves any favors moving forward if they want to use any of those characters antagonists or protagonists in 6.0 and beyond and if they want to do so in as few scripting/story variations as possible.

 

This can actually be made into an advantage - the new Emperor is dethroned by someone else (I love the idea of Jadus... but I don't see most of my characters willingly following this kind of person - so maybe some sort of shadow war between the new Emperor and the new Dark Council? I can see myself taking my sit there back). Republic still has a Chancellor and Jedi still have Satele, so there is no need to make new characters to take over the faction.

[Estelindis]

Stories can still be fun and thrilling without the specter of death. I enjoy Pride and Prejudice well enough without someone coming in to knife Darcy at the ball to make it more real lol.

This analogy is perfect.

And I've taken no offense about anything, so no need to worry or apologize, it's all good.

Thank you.

[ZionHalcyon]

This can actually be made into an advantage - the new Emperor is dethroned by someone else (I love the idea of Jadus... but I don't see most of my characters willingly following this kind of person - so maybe some sort of shadow war between the new Emperor and the new Dark Council? I can see myself taking my sit there back). Republic still has a Chancellor and Jedi still have Satele, so there is no need to make new characters to take over the faction.

 

I think Jadus would be great BECAUSE it isn't someone most characters would follow willingly. A crazy sith like him would make the otherwise unthinkable choice of a Sith or former servant of the empire siding with the republic all that more possible, and that too can be played upon in the stories. That sort of tension. Imagine how people would react to you if you serve the republic, but the people you help feel like " he's only here because Jadus is a nutter - once Jadus is gone, so is this guy/gal", and how your character deals with that...

[JLazarillo]

I think Jadus would be great BECAUSE it isn't someone most characters would follow willingly. A crazy sith like him would make the otherwise unthinkable choice of a Sith or former servant of the empire siding with the republic all that more possible, and that too can be played upon in the stories. That sort of tension. Imagine how people would react to you if you serve the republic, but the people you help feel like " he's only here because Jadus is a nutter - once Jadus is gone, so is this guy/gal", and how your character deals with that...

I think the problem with introducing Jadus as the "main villain" going forward falls the story into a different trap, though, that being, "there's always a bigger Sith". I love him, but I'm not sure he'd lead the story (and let's face it, the villains tend to be the ones who lead the story) in any path we haven't explored much already with the Dread Masters or Valkorion.

[krakadyla]

My personal understanding is that Obsidian writers, particularly Chris Avellone, don't care that much for romance and thus aren't as reluctant to throw it under the bus as writers who really do care. And I prefer ones who care, no matter how good someone like Avellone is in every other way. I am, frankly, a sucker for a good romance. And for happy endings. I just believe in earning our happy endings.

 

Then have I got news for you. Obz is said to do relationships in Deadfire, including them of romantic sort. They won't be one size fits all though, i.e. if your character routinely burns kitten orphanages then the guy who loves all animals probably won't be interested in knocking boots.

 

As for Avellone (who's not with Obsidian any longer), I think he said he preferred his romances tragic, with heads on pikes and such, think KOTOR2 restored content's Atton/Brianna if you're dark and snub them for the other two. What makes me sad he doesn't write romances, because it's exactly how I like them too.

[Estelindis]

Then have I got news for you. Obz is said to do relationships in Deadfire, including them of romantic sort.

Lol, I know, but thanks. I am a backer of the original PoE and the sequel. Given that it's a general trend with Obsidian not to go for romance the way Bioware does, it'll be interesting to see how this development goes. I personally view it as somewhat analogous to BG1 (no romances) -> BG2 (romances), but I guess we'll see. I am not that sure how I feel about Obsidian writing generally these days. I used to think they were simply hampered by their publishers and needed the time and space to just fully finish a game. However then I enjoyed PoE but felt the ending was quite bad. Maybe a satisfying ending is just hard to write...

[krakadyla]

I am not that sure how I feel about Obsidian writing generally these days. I used to think they were simply hampered by their publishers and needed the time and space to just fully finish a game. However then I enjoyed PoE but felt the ending was quite bad. Maybe a satisfying ending is just hard to write...

 

To be honest, I found the main story line somewhat bland (White Marches was much better though), the Big Bad underwhelming and potentially great hooks such as Legacy underutilized, but IMO Obsidian is second to none in world building, and the vibrant, coherent world somewhat offsets lack of engaging story...

 

...ahem. Right, SWTOR thread. So, Bioware -- pick up your world-building skillz (also villains), because not only Obsidian is rapidly annexing your influence zones, it's now hijacking your threads in your own forum of all places too!

[ZionHalcyon]

I think the problem with introducing Jadus as the "main villain" going forward falls the story into a different trap, though, that being, "there's always a bigger Sith". I love him, but I'm not sure he'd lead the story (and let's face it, the villains tend to be the ones who lead the story) in any path we haven't explored much already with the Dread Masters or Valkorion.

 

While not necessarily alone, you may be in the minority on that opinion because essentially what you are saying is you want someone who is not Sith to lead the Sith Empire. Because that "there is always a bigger Sith" is almost literally the mentality of the entire Sith Empire. It's what the Sith are about - fighting and power grabs to become that next bigger Sith.

 

The problem among the Sith right now is that because of the war, you have a bunch of Sith that are all around the same in terms of strength. Philosophically the Sith are might makes right. So the only one who can step in and stop the power vacuum caused by the lack of a clear most powerful leader in their power structure is literally Jadus.

 

If you want to break away from that structure, and want a different take on the Sith then the Sith stop being Sith, and you get away from the people who wanted the Republic vs Sith again which was the number one outcry.

 

I understand your point and respect that you hold it, but I think going the way you suggest would change the Sith so much that's they wouldn't be recognizable as Sith anymore.

[casirabit]

While not necessarily alone, you may be in the minority on that opinion because essentially what you are saying is you want someone who is not Sith to lead the Sith Empire. Because that "there is always a bigger Sith" is almost literally the mentality of the entire Sith Empire. It's what the Sith are about - fighting and power grabs to become that next bigger Sith.

 

The problem among the Sith right now is that because of the war, you have a bunch of Sith that are all around the same in terms of strength. Philosophically the Sith are might makes right. So the only one who can step in and stop the power vacuum caused by the lack of a clear most powerful leader in their power structure is literally Jadus.

 

If you want to break away from that structure, and want a different take on the Sith then the Sith stop being Sith, and you get away from the people who wanted the Republic vs Sith again which was the number one outcry.

 

I understand your point and respect that you hold it, but I think going the way you suggest would change the Sith so much that's they wouldn't be recognizable as Sith anymore.

 

Honesty, isn't Jadus the only one that is really left that most people know? I can't see an unknown sith coming in right now. I can see a fight for Emperor should another one arise but most individuals know Jadus and even Lana mentioned him once so it may be the best bet right now.

[ZionHalcyon]

Honesty, isn't Jadus the only one that is really left that most people know? I can't see an unknown sith coming in right now. I can see a fight for Emperor should another one arise but most individuals know Jadus and even Lana mentioned him once so it may be the best bet right now.

 

That's just it. No other Sith carries the instant credibility he has. And there are already plot elements in the past that can be tapped into to further build the character up - case in point, I bring up the Dread Masters again, because philosophically they follow the same exact beats and M.O. Jadus does in Act 1 of the Agent story, and given the epic story that was carried out just to find and defeat the Dread Masters, it builds up Jadus even further if they were his Apprentices and acting on his orders, perhaps to quietly (as in, not directly pointing to Jadus) craft an empire that could repel Zakuul.

 

Jadus alone seemed to know the truth about the Emperor and Zakuul in the current retconn, so he's literally the only one with the chops to carry the game as it's main villain for a while...

Edited May 8, 2018 by ZionHalcyon

[JLazarillo]

While not necessarily alone, you may be in the minority on that opinion because essentially what you are saying is you want someone who is not Sith to lead the Sith Empire. Because that "there is always a bigger Sith" is almost literally the mentality of the entire Sith Empire. It's what the Sith are about - fighting and power grabs to become that next bigger Sith.

I'm not talking about it with regard to the structure of the Empire, I'm talking about with regard to the structure of the story. The guiding villain, so to speak, doesn't also have to be the person in the Emperor's chair. Marr effectively filled the space of the latter from the end of the Knight story into the start of 4.0 yet didn't have to be the cause of the main conflict in the story.