Why NO KILL option on Ashara?

[grania]

Well, he does.

 

Yes, the forums are weird lately and for me personally, no longer a place where I feel 'at home' or like I can discuss a subject, share my opinion without some sort of BS following, without instantly getting attacked and smacked in the face with someone's assumptions about my intent or meaning. I guess we're past the point of just asking someone to elaborate, asking them why they feel that way. Where it feels everyone is just attacking each other. Where people connivingly circumvent the naming and shaming policy by talking of "haters" and other such substitutes while they sit back talking smack about other posters and their opinions. And the words and terms they repeat make it quite clear who they're talking about, what posts they're talking about which I think is just completely juvenile and toxic behavior. Or you know, making threads to mock someone else's. Strikes me as a bit of bullying but I suppose it's all good in the name of having a laugh, doesn't matter it's at the expense of someone else.

 

These forums have never been perfect, they've never been drama-free but there's a toxicity hanging in the air lately that just crushes my last bit of desire to have any involvement with SWTOR period. As if it isn't bad enough that the state of the game is pretty much in the gutter. I'd love to go back to a time where everyone's biggest forum eyesore was "Game's Dead Nowhere to Go!".

 

No, you're not guilty of the stuff that I'm talking about, at least not in my eyes. I always enjoy your posts and who knows, I'm probably 'just as bad' in the eyes of someone who isn't me.

 

In any case, a break sounds about right. A shame because I actually enjoy good conversation with people, even those who are of a different opinion and I love sharing in my fandoms or just a bit of banter.

 

 

Back on topic, somewhat; the real culprit here is Bioware. None of this is about Quinn (and people really need to stop using him as a stick, get with the facts). Players loathed Koth, started asking in Twitch streams and on the forums if we could please kill Koth, something Bioware began to consider. Then Aric and Kaliyo became killable not long after, setting a new trend for killing off companions and LI's. Koth and others followed. We were FORCED to let either Vette or Torian die, all of which happened long before Iokath and yes, by then, those who'd always wanted Quinn dead began stomping their feet too but his situation arose much, much later. Bioware should have never given in to any of that from the start, it's that simple. Just another thing they've screwed up in the bloody mess they call KOTFE/KOTET.

 

Oops, I missed this earlier. You're funny, smart and thoughtful and the forums benefit from your presence. So enjoy your break if you decide to take one - hopefully a little time away will charge your batteries

 

AFAIK none of the writers from the original class story are left and the one from KOTFE is an Arcann fan, so we're left with...yeah.

 

In the class story I think they could have given every character a 'ditch one companion' card. You don't want to have Skadge, Ashara, Quinn, Doc, whoever, on your ship? You can chuck or refuse them. I do think the story should have allowed that, My JK would have thrown Doc off the ship the first time she was harassed; a smuggler would have done the same with Corso, and Skadge and Quinn never would have even boarded my ships, if I'd had it my way.

 

Mistakes were made in the original game, no doubt. I wonder how different things would be now if we had been allowed to refuse particular companions

Edited March 22, 2018 by grania

[Goreshaga]

AFAIK none of the writers from the original class story are left and the one from KOTFE is an Arcann fan, so we're left with...yeah.

 

In the class story I think they could have given every character a 'ditch one companion' card. You don't want to have Skadge, Ashara, Quinn, Doc, whoever, on your ship? You can chuck or refuse them. I do think the story should have allowed that, My JK would have thrown Doc off the ship the first time she was harassed; a smuggler would have done the same with Corso, and Skadge and Quinn never would have even boarded my ships, if I'd had it my way.

I could not agree more on this.

 

I always thought that Doc and Rusk felt a bit out of place in my JK ship.

As for Ashara and Jaesa, honnesty, I think that both my SI and SW would've killed those 2 girls, Ashara because once the gost is taken she has no purpose in being there anymore, and Jaesa is a potential threat for my SW.

Skadge and Vik are the only members of their respective crew that I really don't like, but well we can kill them both so i don't really care.

There's no one in the JC that I actually dislike, but I don't really care about any of them either

[SithKoriandr]

Nope, you do not get to tell others how to play or which side to go on, or that if they don't get their jollies seeing torture onscreen, they're somehow not Sith. I don't need you "explaining" your flawed personal interpretation of the Sith Code or Sith Order as some sort of gospel truth. Because it's not. It's your opinion. /ignore

 

Sure, others can play how they want. That doesn't mean that the Sith as a whole aren't that way. That is the way. It's what Zhorrid, Jadus, Baras, most of the Sith act.

 

This doesn't mean they can't be nice. Sith however, in general, are evil incarnate. You don't get Dark Side V level by being kind.

[AngFour]

Your whole post was fab (everything you post is fab!) but I was particularly struck by this comment. It immediately made me think of the scene on Iokath where my warrior had just found Quinn again, and then to my utter shock and dismay, she shouted "I love you!" to Theron. It was perhaps the lowest point for me playing this game.

 

First of all, thank you!

 

Second: Really? That's how it went down for the SW? Uuuuugh. My (1/3) SW was male and quit KotFE right after he got Vette back. The other two are females who romanced Quinn, but one will forever be camped out in Chapter 1 of KotFE and using Marr as her companion (because him healing her gives me so much joy) and the other one is 70th level but sitting on Rishi. Any time I think of progressing ANY of them further I'm kind of like THIS.

 

I think what was worse was the GALAXY WIDE MESSAGE to Theron about how you love him and how you'll give him a bunch of Eternal Fleet ships to do what he wants just please come home. I was sincerely hoping that (seeing as I'm 98.9% positive Lana is in on this whole charade) Lana just opened a direct channel to Theron but, nope, someone on Copero (Temple or Aristocra, can't remember who) mentions the message. Ugh, ugh, UGH. Even if you DIDN'T romance Theron, the whole message is just bad, too private for public consumption, and it makes the Alliance Commander look weak, making them AND the Alliance a bigger target than they already are.

 

Bad, bad, BAD!

 

I'd like to add that your post reminds me of my husband's rule for running a table top game - remember that it's your player's story, not yours. It's about how much fun and enjoyment they are getting from your game, not how much you can wow them with your own awesome overpowered npcs or your mastery of the rules over them.

 

My husband is the exact same way for our tabletop games and in return, those campaigns last a whole lot longer than the ones our friend tries to run where he beats us over the head with weird, rule breaking weaknesses (To make it more interesting!) and shoving his idea of fun down our throats. Husband's longest campagin: Almost three years. Friend's longest campaign: 2 sessions.

 

BW could learn something from that small statement alone.

 

AFAIK none of the writers from the original class story are left and the one from KOTFE is an Arcann fan, so we're left with...yeah.

 

Charles Boyd, the lead writer, the guy who gave us this whole mess, is the guy who wrote the Trooper storyline.

 

The Trooper.

 

Yeah. So, make of that what you will. (If you liked the Trooper, great! If not...well...there you go.)

 

(Personally I thought Trooper was, "Eh, okay." Not the best, not the worst. Which, honestly can be said about KotFE/ET as a whole. It's not exactly a ringing endorsement for KotFE/ET though.)

[Amantionus]

Sure, others can play how they want. That doesn't mean that the Sith as a whole aren't that way. That is the way. It's what Zhorrid, Jadus, Baras, most of the Sith act.

 

This doesn't mean they can't be nice. Sith however, in general, are evil incarnate. You don't get Dark Side V level by being kind.

 

Evil has many faces however...

 

I like the old concepts used in D&D (anyone remember rolling dice and sharpening pencils?).

 

Sure, some people are just crazy evil... Chaotic Evil in the old D&D world. Unpredictable and as likely to kill their friends (if any) and minions as they are to kill their enemy. A highly volatile form of evil that could shock anyone by the variety and scope of evil acts that could rapidly pile up.

 

Then, you have the Lawful Evil types. That is where many of my characters seem to reside. Use the laws, customs, culture etc. for your own gain and benefit, while possibly helping or hindering others as well. The key is to ensure you get away with what you are doing and that it results in gains for you. As I recall the description, it was something like 'lawful evil is the most dangerous form of evil because it represents a cold, calculated and frequently successful form of evil".

 

Lastly, there was plain old "evil" or "neutral evil". Evil for the sake of evil itself. This form of evil just never made much sense to me. You were not trying to tear down order or trying to protect yourself while committing evil acts... You were just straight evil for no reason.

 

To me, Sith tend to fall into the lawful and chaotic evil groupings more than just the pure evil for no reason group. Now, while the short term impact of the chaotic evil sorts is terrifying in every way, it is a road to a quick demise as well, as people will rise up against irrational evil. But the lawful evil...that is the hard one to fight. We might have moral objections to what they do, but it is "legal". That is the kind of evil that can last a long time, grow strong and even build/maintain an empire. That face of evil incarnate is special.

 

That also shows us the problem with "light/dark" side tiers. I may be an utterly evil and conniving agent of darkness...but I work within the framework available to not only do what it is that I do, but to ensure I can get away with it. But does being "legal" make me less "evil"? Or am I just a more insidious form of evil that may not be as obvious at first glance?

[MikeCobalt]

Every class has its "Anti-Hero" (Sm>Akaavi, SI>Ashara, JS>Scourage, etc.) which does provide some diversion if not *Static. That was Ok I guess from a story point of view and add's a bit of "Depth". However the Sith wouldn't fit well in this structure First why "Suffer" this at all? Second this is undermining the very figure and everything they stand and strive for.

 

Its ok for the "Light Sided Inquisitor" however for the true Dark S.I. is very odd and not very "Sithy" (My case, Ashara never got "Taken anywhere"). As mentioned earlier Any Junior Sith that learned and didn't move on while it was safe would eventually be seen as a competitor if not threat (Rule of Korriban, survival of the fittest) Sith do not take competition well, a tendency (If not Policy) of Killing anyone professionally or upstart trainees (Ashara now, Jeasa if she displays too much power). The class stories were great and nowdays my only interest however with the train wreck of the Zakuul story and now its ramifications the continuing stories have broken class guidelines, broken character bibles and even distorted ethics trying to navigate through what's left.

Edited March 22, 2018 by MikeCobalt

[aerockyul]

Someone who considered Ashara a friend? Someone confident enough in themselves to prefer a more able, more equal companion to a subservient acolyte?

 

Personally I don't see what's wrong with a companion showing some bit of independent thought or occasionally not worshipping the ground the main character walks on. But some players (not necessarily saying you) only seem to want lackeys.

 

That describes my relationship with Ashara. People see it like the only two ways you could look at Ashara was as a silly waifu (eh, is she any older than Nadia? She was in training with trainees that didn't look any older than 16 or so), or someone you should kill just because you're a Sith and she's...not? Do you kill every non-force sensitive, non-Sith person you come across. Shall we list all the companions that aren't either/both of those two things? I'll bet you don't want to kill every single one of them, right?

 

Not that I care how others feel about the companions I like. Their opinion isn't going to change how I feel.

 

I wish, however, instead of sniping at and getting petty with each other, we could all come together to call out the bad writing, newfound silence of ambient chatter, and broken mouths that have greeted every...single...return. I can't believe with each Alert someone at BW hasn't fixed (noticed?!) this. You've had two years!!! This is not a FEATURE!

[Seaturkey]

To your point, lawful evil is the residence of demons in D&D. Powerful, ruthlessly evil but cunning, making dark deals with mortals and the like, effectively more advantageous in the long run. Another good comparison would be to compare the infamous DC villains Joker and Lex Luthor.

 

While Joker is a terrifying threat, he's ultimately alone, one man, demented as he is, but still one man lashing out at anyone and everyone on a whim.

 

Luthor on the other hand, is not alone. He has virtually unlimited resources, minions, access to advanced tech, etc etc.

 

Now, you tell me, in the grand scheme of things, who would you consider the greater threat? While I'm a much bigger fan of Mr. J, Luthor is a potential world threat, something Joker will never be (discounting PIS or a 'power-up' of some kind).

[Amantionus]

That was essentially my point.

 

Many seem to think DS 5 means "psychopathic evil villain personified".

 

To me, that is a more garden variety evil. Yes, it is shocking and gets attention. It is a true headline grabber. But for my money, I bet on the "smarter" form of evil. The one that has connections, will, strength AND the ability to use it. Add in the ability to hide that evil and you have a force to be reckoned with. That is the evil I aim for with most of my Sith.

 

I want powerful minions. I want to protect myself. I want to be able to pull strings and manipulate on a galactic scale. Sure, it might be easier to just go all crazy and start killing...and no one would call it anything other than evil (except a defense attorney, they would call it "not guilty by reason of insanity"). But that evil burns hot and then burns out fast.

 

I want to be a long term player in galactic events. Thus, I must be more "lawful evil" than "chaotic evil". But it does not make me any less evil in the end, it is just a different form. A form that can last for far longer and ultimately, in my opinion, be much more powerful.

[aerockyul]

Well put. Whoever these writers are, they just don't seem to understand the nuances of the characters and their relationships well enough to write them properly. I would be thrilled with a [maim] option.

 

I could have used that second option myself when Pierce was badmouthing my husband to me again and again, and yet AGAIN in FE. As if he's some kind of innocent, he blackmailed his way onto my ship in the first place. Way to make the femwarrior feel like a sap :/ Now a lot of inquisitors get to feel like saps too.

 

edited for clarity^

 

Grab one of the cybernetic gloves and you can RP like you did that.

 

I don't have a lot of experience with RPer's, but the ones I have run across tend to enjoy "maiming" their companions with droid parts.

[Seireeni]

Grab one of the cybernetic gloves and you can RP like you did that.

 

I don't have a lot of experience with RPer's, but the ones I have run across tend to enjoy "maiming" their companions with droid parts.

 

That's just headcanon, though. Imo the bigger issue in a scene like that was how the character of the SI was treated -- they just stood there, doing nothing, when Ashara calmly walked away. It really breaks the illusion of controlling your PC when a cutscene forces them to act completely out of character.

[aerockyul]

That's just headcanon, though. Imo the bigger issue in a scene like that was how the character of the SI was treated -- they just stood there, doing nothing, when Ashara calmly walked away. It really breaks the illusion of controlling your PC when a cutscene forces them to act completely out of character.

 

Honestly to get any satisfaction from what we've been getting it all has to be headcanon-ed. I wouldn't know what we couldn't do to kill/maim/humiliate/break her because I would never take that path, but I don't begrudge people who wanted that. Like others, I'm all for more choices, but not the way BW is doing it.

 

Ang's post a couple pages back really highlights well how bad the writing has become. Our PCs are being controlled by everyone else but us--Lana, Theron, Valkorian, Arcann, some of the companions like Kaliyo, Scorpio, Gault, Koth. The list could go on if I went chapter by chapter to point out the instances.

 

Our PCs have been easily and naively manipulated since we were sent on those obviously suspicious errands by Arkous and Darok.

[grania]

Grab one of the cybernetic gloves and you can RP like you did that.

 

I don't have a lot of experience with RPer's, but the ones I have run across tend to enjoy "maiming" their companions with droid parts.

 

Better than nothing I guess. On my first warrior play through I made Quinn wear the rakghoul custom until I felt better.

[MikeCobalt]

I just really feel They've really gutted the S.I. with this. I played dark for that and with how that was handled, the "Welp" issue(Character is a complete weakling), I really feel like just deleting that character.

[Lady_Myajha]

I think a lot of people are missing the point here of "evil" and the "Sith". The Sith aren't about being "evil" they are about Strength. Evil is just a side effect. You grow Strong by breaking your chains, that's all well and good, and you generally do that on the backs of others. The weak don't matter, because everyone has the ability to break their chains, if you can't you're not worth a second thought, because you're a lesser being. Is that evil, absolutely, but it's not about evil, it's about Strength and breaking your chains.

 

Which is the problem with Ashara. She gained in Strength... that's great, in fact that's what we want her to do as her Master. We've trained her for this moment. But then she states that her chains are broken.

 

No that in any Sith's mind, good or evil, you need to prove by the Sith Code. You don't just say it, you have to DO it. prove it. Most SIth do it by killing their Masters, but sure there are other ways.

 

But Ashara she just states it, then doesn't Prove it. As a Sith Master, if I let her get away with this, I've failed her. If I let her walk away thinking her chains are broken, without having the Strength to do it, I've failed her. I've failed the Sith and the Code.

 

So she states it, doesn't prove it, and my Sith just lets it go. As a Dark Side Sith that tends to come with repercussions. Generally very, very bad ones, and that's been proven through all of Star Wars lore, from "A New Hope" onwards, including in all of Bioware's Star Wars games.

 

What bothers me is that the writers ignored all this and just let it happen. Yes my Dark Side Sith would have killed her or maimed her, and by the Code she should have. But a Light Side Sith would have tested her just the same, because that's the Code. Obi Wan didn't let Anaken break his chains, even though Anaken wanted to, because the Jedi (and the Light Side) agreed with the Sith Code on this one, you don't let the weak walk away.

[Amantionus]

Fair point. The dark side is not necessarily "evil" in and of itself. I does however tend to manifest in ways that are at best selfish and very frequently in a manner that could be considered as "evil" my most moral codes.

 

You are certainly correct about the testing aspect however. Opera non verba, deeds not words is key. Anyone can say anything, but unless one has the deeds to back up those words, they mean nothing. The truly callous might say, "prove it" and fire up a lightsaber. The more benevolent might say, "show me" while posing some less lethal form of test.

 

Any and every master would have a duty to test the claim in my opinion...unless they are just very lazy masters.

[SithKoriandr]

Now I just get the feeling that the LSer knows they're more powerful than Ashara and the strength of Ashara can be seen and they accept her.

 

The DSer however, see's how much of a threat Ashara can be to them, and Nox just can't take the possible defeat and lets her walk out.

 

[Amantionus]

Maybe for the LSers...but I can't buy it for the DSers. Letting her walk out would seem to me to look like weakness. A Sith can't let themselves appear weak unless they want to be a target or pawn. To me the DSer would have to fight in some way, not just stand there and take the perceived insult. Besides, how long until everyone knows they can just walk away? In my view, the DSer just can't afford to let that happen.

[Lady_Myajha]

Maybe for the LSers...but I can't buy it for the DSers. Letting her walk out would seem to me to look like weakness. A Sith can't let themselves appear weak unless they want to be a target or pawn. To me the DSer would have to fight in some way, not just stand there and take the perceived insult. Besides, how long until everyone knows they can just walk away? In my view, the DSer just can't afford to let that happen.

 

So much this. The biggest issue here is that my Dark Side SI rules an Empire that rivals both the Republic and the Sith Empire. She knows people are gunning for her.

 

 

Then Ashara says "I am your equal"

 

 

That is a very dangerous line for a Dark Side Sith to accept. Because if that's true, which it's not, but even if it is, that means my SI is expendable, and we all know what happens to expendable Sith. She can't let that challenge go unaccepted. It's not a statement, it's a challenge to a Dark Side Sith's way of thinking.

 

So that fact that the writers inserted that line, and then let that go unchallenged it a slap in my Sith's face. Even if my Sith didn't want to she can't afford to not kill Ashara now.

[Amantionus]

Killing would not be the only viable option in my view. But the DSer would have to send a strong message in some way. A severe beatdown, maiming, freezing in carbonite, killing, or several other options would be available. Besides, we are sitting on the Eternal throne with the Eternal Fleet at our command... Even if Ashara was an equal in terms of force power (which I highly doubt) she is certainly not an equal in terms of galactic power. Nor would she be likely to survive a full scale orbital bombardment...

 

Besides, doesn't the Eternal Fleet go all rogue and hostile if the person sitting on the throne gets killed off? Someone has to be on that throne...and the fleet protects itself... If Ashara is all about helping people and such she has to know that the worst thing she could do would be to kill off the SI, which makes her position weaker right off the bat and leaves her vulnerable.

[Swingkittie]

My Sith took her back. She is a grey/dark 1 sometimes dark 2 depending on her mood.

 

I haven't done it with my male SI who romanced her. I want to break up with her but not sure if she leaves. I think two of the options she doesn't stay at all right?

[MikeCobalt]

A DS Inquisitor that lets anybody walk out after a Flat out or Existential threat or challenge even would soon find themselves shuffled to the bottom of the hierarchy and soon to be challenged by any upstart looking to climb the ladder or squeezed out by contemporaries seeing us as weak. I did not play the typical Sith as BW so often portrays the Dark, Fanatical, at times Frothing at the mouth Sith; More like the core Movies sense of Dignity, Professionalism and Proper. Even Vader knew when to make deals when it produced a better outcome then to Kill everybody in the room (and beyond).

 

The LS Inquisitors may like this however in the Sith I don't think that was very wise at all. For Ashara to have progressed from where we left her to this *Apparent level now, ridiculous. Beat Thanaton, The councils praise, Darth Marrs Praise (I never thought I'd live to see the day without Thanaton and yet I'm conferring with his successor), Defeated Arcann, Valkorian, Vaylin held/holds the power of four More powerful entities and Ashara is better in six years (I thought not long ago somebody actually did the math and it was longer between Pre Zakuul and Now but whatever) then all we did, BS.

Edited March 23, 2018 by MikeCobalt

[Lady_Myajha]

Yes but if one thing in Star Wars has taught us, is that you can have an entire fleet at your back, but a single person can still get to you and kill you. Luke and the Emperor, Bane and those Sith, the Revan, the TOR main character and Valkorian.

 

Remember "The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force."

 

If Ashara really is that powerful the full might of the Eternal Fleet doesn't mean anything.

[Lady_Myajha]

Even Vader knew when to make deals when it produced a better outcome then to Kill everybody in the room (and beyond)..

 

Yes but Vader (and Sidius) both knew that there were also times to choke or shock the hell out of some upstart who even remotely challenged their authority.

[MikeCobalt]

I good way to make somebody feel like their character is a total Weakling, Who wants that?