Compassion, Healing or Love for the Broken Dark Princess: Vaylin Appreciation <3

[gamephil]

Our departed ally Paul has more art for us.

 

Eternal Sith Warrior, Vaylin looking good in spiky armor. By via.

Edited October 22, 2018 by gamephil

[fishpeople]

Our departed ally Paul has more art for us.

 

Eternal Sith Warrior, Vaylin looking good in spiky armor. By via.

 

Sith attire looks good on Vaylin. I wish my set could be worn without that hood up.

[gamephil]

Vaylin should have been treated like Jack

 

Yes. Even if she just couldn't be saved, she needed at least to be given something better, and if they couldn't do that, they should have just let us save her from the harm her abuser did to her or recruit her if DS, rather than do what they did. Mentally ill abuse survivor becomes villain is awful on the face of it, and this was just an order of magnitude worse.

[fishpeople]

Vaylin should have been treated like Jack

 

Yes. Even if she just couldn't be saved, she needed at least to be given something better, and if they couldn't do that, they should have just let us save her from the harm her abuser did to her or recruit her if DS, rather than do what they did. Mentally ill abuse survivor becomes villain is awful on the face of it, and this was just an order of magnitude worse.

 

While it would have been nice to have a redemption option for Vaylin, I do tend to lean towards those who say it would be out of character for her. She doesn't really strike me as a character who could work with a light side persona. Then again I didn't think a Dread Master could be redeemed but Calphayus can be. Maybe a close encounter with death would turn Vaylin too?

 

I do agree with the top post about Vaylin being a recruitable companion for dark sided players though. Vaylin would have probably got on a lot better than Arcann with someone who is just as crazy for bloodlust as her. I can't think of a scenario with Arcann who is on a quest for redemption in the eyes of the galaxy obtaining his goals with a dark side Outlander who has affiliated with the Sith Empire. ( Personally, I think Arcann was more interesting as a villain than this submissive role he's been pushed into now. )

 

Looking back at what content Arcann has got since the end of KotET, a two-minute cutscene in which he gives the player some armor and a brief conversation about sparing Theron for his actions while undercover. They could have just as easily done something similar for Vaylin but given it a darker tone. For example, instead of giving the player a prep talk about sparing Theron's life, she could have advised the Outlander to murder him as many ways as possible for betraying you.

[gamephil]

While it would have been nice to have a redemption option for Vaylin, I do tend to lean towards those who say it would be out of character for her. She doesn't really strike me as a character who could work with a light side persona. Then again I didn't think a Dread Master could be redeemed but Calphayus can be. Maybe a close encounter with death would turn Vaylin too?

 

I do agree with the top post about Vaylin being a recruitable companion for dark sided players though. Vaylin would have probably got on a lot better than Arcann with someone who is just as crazy for bloodlust as her. I can't think of a scenario with Arcann who is on a quest for redemption in the eyes of the galaxy obtaining his goals with a dark side Outlander who has affiliated with the Sith Empire. ( Personally, I think Arcann was more interesting as a villain than this submissive role he's been pushed into now. )

 

Looking back at what content Arcann has got since the end of KotET, a two-minute cutscene in which he gives the player some armor and a brief conversation about sparing Theron for his actions while undercover. They could have just as easily done something similar for Vaylin but given it a darker tone. For example, instead of giving the player a prep talk about sparing Theron's life, she could have advised the Outlander to murder him as many ways as possible for betraying you.

 

I'd be OK with that if they hadn't gotten her into that state with the torture ****. I still think it should have been an option, and if it was the only one, I'd still do it. But it's still the thing that BWA seems to love, that a character that was tortured into madness simply can't ever heal, and that makes me twitchy. I don't think she should change all that much, she's entitled to her rage, but I would have liked both a DS and an LS path for her to live, the first giving her what she wants, the other maybe giving her what she needs.

 

Since we're not getting either, though, it's all a wash. Only having her for a DS character or as a DS path is still better than the reality. Maybe the LS character could have put her away and gotten her therapy, but not gotten the companion and not just impaled her. A letter from mom about visiting her and she's doing better. I'd be all right with that.

Edited October 29, 2018 by gamephil

[fishpeople]

I'd be OK with that if they hadn't gotten her into that state with the torture ****. I still think it should have been an option, and if it was the only one, I'd still do it. But it's still the thing that BWA seems to love, that a character that was tortured into madness simply can't ever heal, and that makes me twitchy. I don't think she should change all that much, she's entitled to her rage, but I would have liked both a DS and an LS path for her to live, the first giving her what she wants, the other maybe giving her what she needs.

 

Since we're not getting either, though, it's all a wash. Only having her for a DS character or as a DS path is still better than the reality. Maybe the LS character could have put her away and gotten her therapy, but not gotten the companion and not just impaled her. A letter from mom about visiting her and she's doing better. I'd be all right with that.

 

I think the only thing she wanted though a majority of KOTFE/ET was to kill Senya and maybe Arcann. I don't really see a light side option that would allow that. Then again "You're beyond redemption" never struck me as a LS choice, so maybe sacrificing Senya and Arcann for the 'greater good.' ? Valkorion probably wouldn't have been happy, but **** him.

 

I still think your best bet is to ask for her to be added to the Odessen computer if they don't want to do anything story wise. Then maybe place her other appearance onto the LS/DS vendors. (Kotfe)

[gamephil]

I think the only thing she wanted though a majority of KOTFE/ET was to kill Senya and maybe Arcann. I don't really see a light side option that would allow that. Then again "You're beyond redemption" never struck me as a LS choice, so maybe sacrificing Senya and Arcann for the 'greater good.' ? Valkorion probably wouldn't have been happy, but **** him.

 

I still think your best bet is to ask for her to be added to the Odessen computer if they don't want to do anything story wise. Then maybe place her other appearance onto the LS/DS vendors. (Kotfe)

 

Well, she wanted revenge, and had a lot of justified rage behind it, something that felt the devs were kind of dismissive of. I mean, the sympathetic line ending with "Killing him won't heal your scars" is just terrible. But her desire for revenge was misdirected, sadly until after she was already dead. I think that if they'd given us choices that were not dismissive of her trauma or actively added to it, she might have been convinced to turn that rage against Valkorion instead of Senya, and that could have been a step towards her being an ally to a Light Side character while not really changing much herself. I don't think she should be another Arcann.

 

Or, since they have their whole "you can't save everyone" thing, maybe she wouldn't, but I'd have felt a whole lot better about the whole thing with that attempt. I do think they got pretty close in Chapter 3 with "we're both being manipulated", but since that's also where they introduced the command phrase, it's hard to give them credit for it.

 

And, yeah, the console or the CM is really the only possibility, and I think even that's unlikely, though I'm not entirely sure why. They've already said her story is done, much as I loathe that story and think something brief to overturn it would be welcome. These are entirely hypothetical ways they could have gone, instead. In spite of my discomfort with it, I would have gone all DS for some characters to keep her around, even if it was out of character, and then just rewrote that story in my head. Certainly the easiest way they could have gone was to have the confrontation in Chapter 6 go differently if we'd killed her mum, and then kill Arcann, and she joins us to kill the final member of the family. Too late now, sadly.

Edited October 30, 2018 by gamephil

[fishpeople]

Well, she wanted revenge, and had a lot of justified rage behind it, something that felt the devs were kind of dismissive of. I mean, the sympathetic line ending with "Killing him won't heal your scars" is just terrible. But her desire for revenge was misdirected, sadly until after she was already dead. I think that if they'd given us choices that were not dismissive of her trauma or actively added to it, she might have been convinced to turn that rage against Valkorion instead of Senya, and that could have been a step towards her being an ally to a Light Side character while not really changing much herself. I don't think she should be another Arcann.

 

Or, since they have their whole "you can't save everyone" thing, maybe she wouldn't, but I'd have felt a whole lot better about the whole thing with that attempt. I do think they got pretty close in Chapter 3 with "we're both being manipulated", but since that's also where they introduced the command phrase, it's hard to give them credit for it.

 

And, yeah, the console or the CM is really the only possibility, and I think even that's unlikely, though I'm not entirely sure why. They've already said her story is done, much as I loathe that story and think something brief to overturn it would be welcome. These are entirely hypothetical ways they could have gone, instead. In spite of my discomfort with it, I would have gone all DS for some characters to keep her around, even if it was out of character, and then just rewrote that story in my head. Certainly the easiest way they could have gone was to have the confrontation in Chapter 6 go differently if we'd killed her mum, and then kill Arcann, and she joins us to kill the final member of the family. Too late now, sadly.

 

At that point she and Scorpio were doing their own thing though, so you could argue Scorpio was having an effect of her too. She may have been convinced to turn her attention onto Valkorion if the player character hadn't be written to provoke her at every opportune moment. All the other redeemable dark side characters have 'seen the light' after experiencing or coming close to death. Dread Master Calphayus, for example, had the chance to be redeemed after being slain during the Dread Palace operation.

 

There are quite a few lines of dialog which don't seem to fit with any character. Most people when talking about this subject and Vaylin instantly seem to look at it from a light side perspective. I'm not saying it's impossible but looking at a possible 'redemption' for Vaylin from a dark side angle would suit her better in my opinion. Darth Nox (mine anyway) would kill for an apprentice like Vaylin.

 

I would just go with the Odessen computer and let people claim her as they wish. I wouldn't overturn any of KOTET though, I think it would be easier to continue from where it was left than rewrite a part of KOTET. If they ever give Odessen a daily area they could expand on her story, maybe she survived and has been hiding out ever since? Maybe a power-hungry Sith Lord has come along while we were on Zakuul and has recruited her? The possibilities are endless. As much as I despise them, I'll even take a two-minute cutscene with her making an appearance even if nothing follows from it.

[gamephil]

Darth Imperious and Apprentice Vaylin

 

More art by via, commissioned by Paul. And the Genesis World in the Old Republic.

 

"After the death of Valkorion, life returned to the dead world of Nathema. Determined to maintain her dominance over the galaxy, Darth Imperious brought the body of Vaylin to Nathema to rejuvenate her cells."

Edited October 31, 2018 by gamephil

[fishpeople]

That'll probably be how they bring back Theron if you left him to die on Nathema.

[gamephil]

That'll probably be how they bring back Theron if you left him to die on Nathema.

 

I THINK you're joking, but, ugh. I have nothing against Theron, honestly. I think his writing has been especially poor lately, and, like Lana, I think he's been overused. Still, I don't really dislike him, but I'd have to walk if anything like that happened. I already have issues with the fact that he received that specific injury and can live through it. We had a real choice with him.and, if a player decided he dies, he should stay dead. They could have chosen otherwise.

 

But, at this point, it wouldn't surprise me.

Edited November 1, 2018 by gamephil

[fishpeople]

I THINK you're joking, but, ugh. I have nothing against Theron, honestly. I think his writing has been especially poor lately, and, like Lana, I think he's been overused. Still, I don't really dislike him, but I'd have to walk if anything like that happened. I already have issues with the fact that he received that specific injury and can live through it. We had a real choice with him.and, if a player decided he dies, he should stay dead. They could have chosen otherwise.

 

But, at this point, it wouldn't surprise me.

 

Actually I was being serious. I think it would be easier to explain for Theron if Nathemas resurrection could effect organic life too as his body is already there on Nathema. Vaylin on the other hand? Her body is likely in the Odessen morgue or a bacta tank. Maybe Senya or a future villain would bring Vaylin's body to Nathema to exploit it's abilities should it b discovered it can heal fatal wounds?

[Sorens]

Also agreed, I was rather surprised that she didnt get a chance at redemption, my JK felt kinda like a jerk needlessly proding her and making fun of her. She is no worse than Arcann and he got his chance, why didnt Senya do her saving magic this time around too.

 

Seriously, some parts of kotet and kotfe need additions or rewrites, just like the traitor arc. Seriously Bioware take your time with the next expansion, but do it well, variations and differences in the story is imo just as important as the end game content in this kind of game, I mostly always come back for the story at least

 

Vaylin may have not deserved redemption, but we deserve the option to try.

[gamephil]

Actually I was being serious. I think it would be easier to explain for Theron if Nathemas resurrection could effect organic life too as his body is already there on Nathema. Vaylin on the other hand? Her body is likely in the Odessen morgue or a bacta tank. Maybe Senya or a future villain would bring Vaylin's body to Nathema to exploit it's abilities should it b discovered it can heal fatal wounds?

 

I suppose. But after some of their comments about her and my opinion of her story, them bringing him back and not even considering her, barring the very real possibility that they just can't get her VA to return, would be pretty awful. Both is good, though I'm sure there are plenty of people that want to keep both or either of them dead.

Edited November 1, 2018 by gamephil

[gamephil]

Vaylin may have not deserved redemption, but we deserve the option to try.

 

Quoted for truth.

[fishpeople]

I suppose. But after some of their comments about her and my opinion of her story, them bringing him back and not even considering her, barring the very real possibility that they just can't get her VA to return, would be pretty awful. Both is good, though I'm sure there are plenty of people that want to keep both or either of them dead.

 

What comments?

[gamephil]

What comments?

 

Things like the interview with, I don't remember the exact quote, but something like it would be difficult to bring her back responsibly. If a dead Theron were to return, that kind of goes out the window as far as I'm concerned, depending on what they meant by "responsible".

[fishpeople]

Things like the interview with, I don't remember the exact quote, but something like it would be difficult to bring her back responsibly. If a dead Theron were to return, that kind of goes out the window as far as I'm concerned, depending on what they meant by "responsible".

 

Then it depends on the context concerning how it would be accomplished, the description from that picture for example would make sense to me. (A member of the Dark Council gathering an army of strong force users through unorthodox means.)

[gamephil]

Then it depends on the context concerning how it would be accomplished, the description from that picture for example would make sense to me. (A member of the Dark Council gathering an army of strong force users through unorthodox means.)

 

Absolutely. I'd love to hear what "responsible" meant to them. I only have my own interpretation. But if it's just the mechanics of a resurrection or ghost, we've already seen that. Some people (not the devs) are saying we shouldn't see any MORE of those, but if that's the hangup, bringing anyone else back (like Theron in this case) shows they are willing to do so. That's what would perturb me.

Edited November 2, 2018 by gamephil

[fishpeople]

Absolutely. I'd love to hear what "responsible" meant to them. I only have my own interpretation. But if it's just the mechanics of a resurrection or ghost, we've already seen that. Some people (not the devs) are saying we shouldn't see any MORE of those, but if that's the hangup, bringing anyone else back (like Theron in this case) shows they are willing to do so. That's what would perturb me.

 

Likely something that would make sense to the plot at hand? and not just a return out of the blue? I'm good with either at this point.

[gamephil]

Likely something that would make sense to the plot at hand? and not just a return out of the blue? I'm good with either at this point.

 

That's what I would have thought, but there are just too many ways to do it that would be unique to her and fit the story that it doesn't seem to me to make sense. Instead, I think he was saying it would be irresponsible because the story was good and poignant and new and they don't want to ruin it or something like that. If so, I obviously don't agree. I think the story as told needs a bit of ruining. Bringing her back is not the only way, but I think it's the easiest, honestly.

 

Plus, it's just so much more poetic for Nathema to bring her back if it does that for anyone, the reversal of all the damage he did there including her (even if it doesn't also heal the damage he did to her mind), though it would surely freak her out. It seems like a great opportunity for one character to get out of death, and if it happened I'd really like it to be her.

Edited November 3, 2018 by gamephil

[fishpeople]

That's what I would have thought, but there are just too many ways to do it that would be unique to her and fit the story that it doesn't seem to me to make sense. Instead, I think he was saying it would be irresponsible because the story was good and poignant and new and they don't want to ruin it or something like that. If so, I obviously don't agree. I think the story as told needs a bit of ruining. Bringing her back is not the only way, but I think it's the easiest, honestly.

 

Plus, it's just so much more poetic for Nathema to bring her back if it does that for anyone, the reversal of all the damage he did there including her (even if it doesn't also heal the damage he did to her mind), though it would surely freak her out. It seems like a great opportunity for one character to get out of death, and if it happened I'd really like it to be her.

 

 

Again it would all depend on that it would be written. We certainly have several ways to return characters who have died.

 

It would have a nice touch to it, I'm not sure it would undo the damage Valkorion did to her but others have changed their views upon an encounter with death. So maybe it would give her a new perspective on life. Though in that scenario I think your biggest problem would be who would bury her on Nathema? Senya? Arcann? Random Sith/Jedi?

[gamephil]

It would have a nice touch to it, I'm not sure it would undo the damage Valkorion did to her but others have changed their views upon an encounter with death. So maybe it would give her a new perspective on life. Though in that scenario I think your biggest problem would be who would bury her on Nathema? Senya? Arcann? Random Sith/Jedi?

 

I suppose someone might do it that thought that the world's return to life might make it an appropriate place for her, that she might appreciate that symbol of her father's desctruction. Or someone that knew that this was a possible result and, for whatever reason, wanted her back. She did have some that were loyal to her, maybe they were for reasons beyond her rage driving them. But if it's anyone, I expect it to be Theron, like you originally said.

[fishpeople]

I suppose someone might do it that thought that the world's return to life might make it an appropriate place for her, that she might appreciate that symbol of her father's desctruction. Or someone that knew that this was a possible result and, for whatever reason, wanted her back. She did have some that were loyal to her, maybe they were for reasons beyond her rage driving them. But if it's anyone, I expect it to be Theron, like you originally said.

 

Theron is already on Nathema, so maybe a future bad guy will learn of this secret through Theron?

[gamephil]

Theron is already on Nathema, so maybe a future bad guy will learn of this secret through Theron?

 

Hey, that's both clever and clears up my issue with his resurrection all at once.