People already asking for Mara Nerfs

[TrixxieTriss]

This makes me sad because I’m actually a pvper and these people asking for nerfs will not only hurt the class in pvp, but also effect pve NiM Ops players.

Most don’t play the class or understand it. But they are quick to call for nerfs because they won’t adapt their own play style and tactics to deal with a changed meta.

They come and start these nerf threads whenever their favourite class gets killed too much from one class instead of learning from it and adapting.

Too ridged are they. They should unlearn what they’ve learned. Always with them it cannot be done. That is why they fail

[supertimtaf]

This makes me sad because I’m actually a pvper and these people asking for nerfs will not only hurt the class in pvp, but also effect pve NiM Ops players.

Most don’t play the class or understand it. But they are quick to call for nerfs because they won’t adapt their own play style and tactics to deal with a changed meta.

They come and start these nerf threads whenever their favourite class gets killed too much from one class instead of learning from it and adapting.

Too ridged are they. They should unlearn what they’ve learned. Always with them it cannot be done. That is why they fail

 

It's in these moments that we'll see if the devs are truly aware of what's going on in their game, as well as if they know what's best for everyone.

 

Mara don't need a dps nerf. They need a defensive ability nerf. It may seem hard to grasp for those «less skilled» players, or even simply the newbs here, but the issue isn't directly damage dealt.

 

I think that the way BW will react to this will probably define the fate of swtor for me, as well as probably others. A damage nerf will just show how bad they are at making their own game, a Ruthless Aggressor nerf will on the opposite show that they know what are the issues and are willing to correct their mistakes.

Edited January 5, 2018 by supertimtaf

[TrixxieTriss]

It's in these moments that we'll see if the devs are truly aware of what's going on in their game, as well as if they know what's best for everyone.

 

Mara don't need a dps nerf. They need a defensive ability nerf. It may seem hard to grasp for those «less skilled» players, or even simply the newbs here, but the issue isn't directly damage dealt.

 

I think that the way devs react to this will probably define the fate of swtor for me, as well as probably others. A damage nerf will just show how bad they are at making their own game, a Ruthless Aggressor nerf will on the opposite show that they know what are the issues and are willing to correct their mistakes.

 

They don’t need a DCD nerf either

[supertimtaf]

They don’t need a DCD nerf either

 

Just a quick question, have you been playing something like a sorc, a sin or a PT against a mara ? Does seeing an entire rotation/opener resisted because of a 45sec cd ability seem normal ? A lot of mara right now, fury specifically are playing with the following rotation right now : Obfuscate > Burst > Camo > Get back in the fight when Obfuscate is back.

It's crazy to see them running away in stealth more than me who play assassin. Anyway that's off topic.

75% F/T resist is just too much for a raw dps class. 25% is more balanced, just like ballistic shield shouldn't heal a sniper.

Sure, other class do need better defensive options, but scalling them to be at a mara's current level would be too much.

Marauder are supposed to be the glass canon spec, when I play mine I find myself more tanky than most of the tanks I see in warzone. Does this seem normal ? Should it stay that way ? Should we keep having all of those bad mara running around in ranked, only carried by this broken utility ? I don't think so.

But again, that's only me.

[TrixxieTriss]

Just a quick question, have you been playing something like a sorc, a sin or a PT against a mara ? Does seeing an entire rotation/opener resisted because of a 45sec cd ability seem normal ? A lot of mara right now, fury specifically are playing with the following rotation right now : Obfuscate > Burst > Camo > Get back in the fight when Obfuscate is back.

It's crazy to see them running away in stealth more than me who play assassin. Anyway that's off topic.

75% F/T resist is just too much for a raw dps class. 25% is more balanced, just like ballistic shield shouldn't heal a sniper.

Sure, other class do need better defensive options, but scalling them to be at a mara's current level would be too much.

Marauder are supposed to be the glass canon spec, when I play mine I find myself more tanky than most of the tanks I see in warzone. Does this seem normal ? Should it stay that way ? Should we keep having all of those bad mara running around in ranked, only carried by this broken utility ? I don't think so.

But again, that's only me.

 

Yes, my 3 mains are Sorc, Jugg and Mara. I’m currently switching between all 3.

 

Also, where are you pulling this 45;sec resist ability from. There is no such thing

 

I’m sorry, your issue is Learn to Play and not knowing what a Mara’s abilities really are and what the CD timers are. If you knew those, you would know they have 5 DCD abilities and 2 of them have a 3 min CD. Knowing that allows you to develope tactics to deal with Mara’s.

 

Also, don’t forget Mara’s are the only class with no self heal mechanic. That means what ever damage you do to them, they keep. They can’t even Camo out and then heal like a Sin can because Camo doesn’t break combat. Mara’s need the DCDs to compensate. But if you want to reduce them, then give them a self heal and they can join every other class that has one Personally I don’t want any self heal on the Mara, the DCDs make it more dynamic and you have to think hard about when to use those DCDs or you can die fast.

 

Let me help you -

 

Undying rage

Reduces the damage you take by 99% for 4 seconds

Cooldown 3 minutes

 

Sabre ward

Raises a lightsaber ward, increasing melee and ranged defences by 50% and absorbing 25% of the damage taken from Force and Tech attacks, lasts 12 seconds

Cooldown 3 minutes

 

Unleash

Purges incapacitating and movement-impairing effects

Cooldown 2 minutes

 

Cloak of pain

Reduces all damage taken by 20% and deals energy damage to attackers. The effect cannot occur more than once every second. Lasts 10 seconds. Cloak of pain refreshes to its full duration when attacked, but this effect cannot last more than 30 seconds in total

Cooldown 1 minute

 

Obfuscate

Obscures the targets vision, reducing it melee and ranged accuracy by 90% for 6 seconds. Cannot be used on operation bosses.

Cooldown 45 seconds.

Edited January 5, 2018 by TrixxieTriss

[Thaladan]

ruthless aggressor needs a nerf for pvp clearly.

[Varlak]

Yes, my 3 mains are Sorc, Jugg and Mara. I’m currently switching between all 3.

 

Also, where are you pulling this 45;sec resist ability from. There is no such thing

 

I’m sorry, your issue is Learn to Play and not knowing what a Mara’s abilities really are and what the CD timers are. If you knew those, you would know they have 5 DCD abilities and 2 of them have a 3 min CD. Knowing that allows you to develope tactics to deal with Mara’s.

.

 

Lol its so fun to see you call on a L2P issue and attack someone for not knowing mara CD while you just proved you do not and he do all by yourself.

[TheLexinator]

To be fair people are always asking for nerfs to classes that aren't their mains.

[TrixxieTriss]

Lol its so fun to see you call on a L2P issue and attack someone for not knowing mara CD while you just proved you do not and he do all by yourself.

 

Explain where I’m wrong before accusing me. I’ve not posted anything that is incorrect

[TrixxieTriss]

To be fair people are always asking for nerfs to classes that aren't their mains.

 

Yes, and it’s very sad. That’s why I call most nerf callers L2P people. Only occasionally do classes need a real nerf.

[nyrkverse]

Explain where I’m wrong before accusing me. I’ve not posted anything that is incorrect

 

you forgot about the ruthless aggressor utility which is what gives 75% force/tech resist on obfuscate for 6 seconds which is what supertimtaf was referring to.

Edited January 5, 2018 by nyrkverse

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Just a quick question, have you been playing something like a sorc, a sin or a PT against a mara ? Does seeing an entire rotation/opener resisted because of a 45sec cd ability seem normal ? A lot of mara right now, fury specifically are playing with the following rotation right now : Obfuscate > Burst > Camo > Get back in the fight when Obfuscate is back.

It's crazy to see them running away in stealth more than me who play assassin. Anyway that's off topic.

75% F/T resist is just too much for a raw dps class. 25% is more balanced, just like ballistic shield shouldn't heal a sniper.

Sure, other class do need better defensive options, but scalling them to be at a mara's current level would be too much.

Marauder are supposed to be the glass canon spec, when I play mine I find myself more tanky than most of the tanks I see in warzone. Does this seem normal ? Should it stay that way ? Should we keep having all of those bad mara running around in ranked, only carried by this broken utility ? I don't think so.

But again, that's only me.

 

Problem with Ruthless Agressor is that there is a big misconception about how it actually works. The only damage that is mitigates [resists] is Force Damage and Tech damage. It does absolutely nothing vs white damage [weapon] damage. In essence it only effects "the bonus damage" for force or tech damage. If you look on your character sheet and look at where the bonus damage is listed which will be under the Force or Tech drop down menu you will see "bonus damage" listed, hover over that and you will see all the things that apply to your bonus damage, there will be 4 different contributers to the bonus damage. They are - Power, Force [Or tech depending on your class], Mastery, Skills/Buffs. You can't use the "bonus damage" on the main character sheet as it does not include the force or tech bonus damage there.

 

I'll use my character sheet values for demonstraitive purposes. Here is a screen shot of it. - https://ibb.co/fLZi7G

 

You'll note that of the four different contributers of bonus damage which total damage bonus comes to 3864, the Force Damage bonus is +1106, So in effect, Ruthless Aggressor would only mitigate[resist] the +1106 and do nothing to the other bonus damage contributers and the white damage [Weapon damage] which varies of course depending on class and weapon.

 

If you add all these damage bonus types with the weapon damage, people get as high 4800 to mainhand damage. So Ruthless Aggressor would still leave about 4100 of that damage unaffected. It does not resist against the total damage, only the bonus Force or Tech damage. Furthermore it does not prevent CCs, it does not effect AOE damage and it further is limited to an enemy who is within 10m of you. So you can't even use it on Ranged in most instances because most ranged [if they know what they are doing] are going to be a lot further away from you than 10m because they're wussies and it's a lot safer to attack people with an attack range of 4' from 5 blocks away [30/35']. Additionally, it shares the same CD as Obfuscate as you need to use obfuscate in order to use Ruthless Aggressor. So what people are confusing here is the misses that Obfuscate is causing. If you take Ruthless Agressor away, obfuscate is still going to cause misses due to decreased accuracy.

 

Most people think it applies to all the damage and that's why they think it's so over the top, which if it effected all the damage, it would be.

 

Now, I'm not gonna try and convince people that Ruthless Aggressor should be left alone, quite honestly, given that I do know how it works and what it's actually doing for me, even if they nerf it some, it's not gonna have as big of an effect as people think it would.

 

That said, I would love to hear the justifications people have why Marauder is the only class in the game without any self heals. No one thinks that it's a little odd they are the only one? You can't say it's because it's a pure DPS class because so is Sniper, and and they have some of the best defensives in the game in addition to self heals. Tanks take more damage than Snipers do.

 

IMO, Marauders shouldn't have any self heals, as they are, as far as I am concerned a pure DPS class and pure DPS classes shouldn't have any self heals. They should, however, have the best DPS in the game period [but they don't].

 

I cannot take anyone seriously who says Marauders have great surivability if there is no healer on their team to heal them. That's a crock of shyt. I personally would much rather see them as they are, now, Mitigation DCDs only, and no heals, but, if they are going to start getting their DCDs chipped away, than they should have some self heals like every single other class and spec in the game has.

 

No one needs Marauders to move fast, and pretty much every class has some sort of group buff. Classes are not viable based on a 10 second raid buff. If it is a tos up between the buff and higher DPS, take bloodthirst away because Marauders are about one thing and one thing only, the only thing they can bring to the table, DPS.

No other class in the entire game has more justification for the top DPS spots than Marauders do and if Snipers still didn't have any self heals, I would say the same exact thing about them regarding RDPS, like I always did before. The irony there being that despite their insane DCDs and self heals they are still the best rDPS DPS wise.

I'm not advocating any buffs for Marauders whatsoever. But nor would I go along with another Marauder nerf of any kind if it was not compensated in some manner DPS wise. Carnage holds the title for most consecutive nerfs in one meta some of which was totally unjustified [5.6], and Annihilation has also been nerfed multiple times as well.

 

Heals matter in PVP and they matter a lot, especially when everyone else you're fighting has them and you don't. No one has more of a right to alpha DPS more than Marauders do, which on the whole they don't have. - Fury is not the only Marauder spec in the game, time for people to start recognizing that.

 

Snipers, and Mercs and Skank tanks, they're all fine, let's nerf the only pure DPS class left in the game some more.

Edited January 5, 2018 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Mubrak]

To be fair, there is a general problem with dps survivability these days, mara, sniper and merc are extremely resilient while being able to dish out full damage, and sorcs and opers can keep half a team busy chasing them (although without doing much damage). When the off-tank classes are the weakest link, something seems not quite right. Edited January 5, 2018 by Mubrak

[Mournblood]

Nerfs should never, EVER, be the first solution to balance issues. It should be the absolute last resort when all other avenues of balance have been exhausted. Nerfs are very typically asked for by the players who feel disadvantaged in some way, and quite often it's that vocal minority who is complaining the loudest. If you've played MMOs long enough, then you know that with few exceptions, this is true.

 

What is also true is that nerfs always lead to more nerfs. It's a vicious cycle. When you nerf something, be it a specific class, a category of abilities, or an entire game mechanic, whatever was not nerfed becomes more advantageous, more competitive, and more desirable. This of course leaves someone else feeling disadvantaged, and at some point, it's realized that the nerf has inexorably created a new issue where something that wasn't nerfed is now "overpowered." So then that new OP class/ability/whatever is eventually nerfed too. And the cycle repeats over and over and over again. Nerfs can also completely destroy a class and render it so ineffectual that it essentially becomes obsolete. As I said earlier, if you've been playing MMOs long enough (I've been playing MMOs since EQ, and SWTOR is my 10th), there are more examples to illustrate and substantiate this paragraph than I could possibly list here.

 

The point here is that if something seems to be over performing a bit, the best possible path to reaching some sort of equilibrium is to look at what is under performing and buff it. In this particular case, I happen to agree with Trixie and I don't feel that Marauders are over performing at all. Good Mercs and Snipers can perform just as well, and better, in many ways. I would even go so far as to suggest that most players currently complaining about Marauders are focusing on what's directly in front of them, which is usually the melee DPS. With all the chaos that ensues in WZs, they don't always see or pay attention to the Merc or Sniper who's blasting them into pieces from 20-30m away. It's therefore easy to notice the Marauder that's in your face and neglect the ranged DPS who's actually doing more damage because they aren't constrained by melee ranges.

 

That said, I do feel that some other DPS classes are under performing. In particular, DPS PTs. Sure, they still have some of the best burst in the game, but their DCDs are antiquated and weak. Consequently, they are one of the easiest, if not THE easiest, classes to focus and kill in the game. There's a conversation going on in the PvP forums right now about the viability of PTs in WZs. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but the reality is this: If you face anyone who knows what they are doing, you are going to die, a LOT. If you're fighting against a bunch of poorly geared and/or poorly skilled players, you're going to tear them a new black hole. Operatives, specifically Lethality, is another class that I feel is under performing in PvP. If we look on the Pub side, Vigilance Guardians are another that I feel is under performing in PvP. We could continue, but I think you get the idea.

 

In summary, game developers and players alike are more likely to succeed at finding that elusive state of game balance by looking at what needs buffing, rather than knee-jerk, often uninformed, cries for nerfs based on personal bias. If even a few of you reading this sees the logic and sense of that, not only have I saved you decades of MMO experience to arrive at the same conclusion, but it may bring us all one step closer to a game we can all equally enjoy.

[Threjyan]

This makes me sad because I’m actually a pvper and these people asking for nerfs will not only hurt the class in pvp, but also effect pve NiM Ops players.

Most don’t play the class or understand it. But they are quick to call for nerfs because they won’t adapt their own play style and tactics to deal with a changed meta.

They come and start these nerf threads whenever their favourite class gets killed too much from one class instead of learning from it and adapting.

Too ridged are they. They should unlearn what they’ve learned. Always with them it cannot be done. That is why they fail

 

are u refering to the fact fury is parsing higher then the other 2 specs? even when BW stated in their clammed meta otherway? well, the truth is, even if we dont like it, its not intentionally for fury to do more dps (due to autocrits and alacrity thresholds), so yes people will complain. and yes people will complain always when they get rekt in pvp.

[Tsillah]

They don’t need a DCD nerf either

Well look at it this way. The marauder has:

 

High DPS

Good and plenty of DCDs

Group utility (raid buff, predation)

 

How many other DPS classes can boast the same? Particularly in melee. So it does seem like the marauder is at an advantage to me.

[PorsaLindahl]

This makes me sad because I’m actually a pvper and these people asking for nerfs will not only hurt the class in pvp, but also effect pve NiM Ops players.

Most don’t play the class or understand it. But they are quick to call for nerfs because they won’t adapt their own play style and tactics to deal with a changed meta.

They come and start these nerf threads whenever their favourite class gets killed too much from one class instead of learning from it and adapting.

Too ridged are they. They should unlearn what they’ve learned. Always with them it cannot be done. That is why they fail

 

Isn't that the way it's always been? Someone always cries for nerfs because Little Joey beat up Timmy because Little Joey knows how to fight better. Been that way since day 1. It's like that in other games as well. Too lazy to figure out how to beat someone, scream nerf.

 

I've been doing lowbie pvp for the last few days on a vengeance juggy. I've had my assets handed to me, sure, but I've also done some wrecking of my own, even against mara's who were 10-20 levels higher than my character.

[jimmorrisson]

I would just like for the Devastating Blast animation changed to something else. It just seems wacky to have have laser swords fire lasers. Edited January 5, 2018 by jimmorrisson

[translucentwolf]

Too ridged are they. They should unlearn what they’ve learned. Always with them it cannot be done. That is why they fail

 

Too rigid are *you* if you can't handle class changes to your current FOTM Mara.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Well look at it this way. The marauder has:

 

High DPS

Good and plenty of DCDs

Group utility (raid buff, predation)

 

How many other DPS classes can boast the same? Particularly in melee. So it does seem like the marauder is at an advantage to me.

 

No one needs a Marauder to move fast, and they are not the only class with raid buffs.

 

Regarding DCDs, when they give Marauders self heals than they don't deserve the DCDs. Half of their DCDs are on 3 minute cooldowns. Given the legth of time DCDs last and the cool down times they have, they will spend 60% of the time without an active DCD in the course of an average length WZ.

 

Try playing a Marauder without a healer on your team where every enemy you face has self-heals to some degree and you have none at all and see how good their survivalability is under those circumstances.

 

While I don't think a pure DPS class should have self heals, but I also don't think that DPS specs should have heals to the levels some do. A marauder is always in the most dangerous places you can be and I do not believe in the slighest they are seen as a low priority enemy to leave around. Ranged DPS have a field day with them because they know Marauders dont have heals, they know that they can remain way outside of their attack range while incuring no downside to themselves. Many maps force players to always be in an area of high concentraition and do not allow for them to leave that area to attack a the Firing squads that are having a turkey shoot with melee. They can't leave a door undefended when the enemy's goal is to plant a bomb on that self same door, they must help the group defend it's active squares, they must stay close enough to a node to prevent an enemy from stealing it [although this is variable depending on how many nodes held and they are more of a responding defender. Ranged are not going to let someone just attack their ball carrier and they know they can attack the Marauder but the Marauder can't attack them back. I get focused all the time by firing squads.

 

You cannot justify a further loss of surviability to a class that cannot heal and has attack range limitations way outside the opportunities ranged have while remaining safe. Furthermore, you cannot say they shouldn't have self heals because they are a pure DPS class on the one hand, while justifing the only other 'pure DPS class' having them and better DCDs even than marauders do.

 

As long as mercs and snipers have the kind of Defensives and heals they do they shouldn't even consider looking at Marauders DCDs. Give them self heals, than you're argument holds water. - Better yet, how do you justify leaving one class out the 8 without self heals. Any line of reasoning cannot hold water unless all the others do less damage than them. They are the most nerfed class in the game in 5.x [ at least one of the specs].

Give them the highest DPS among the classes than you can start cutting their defenses some. Heals matter. You can't just leave one without self heals and say that's fair unless they are top DPS across the board. No other class has a greater claim to that than them.

 

Way to much healing going on with many of the other DPS classes, and you can't DPS when you're dead. Any DPS spec that does more DPS than them should lose their heals [Not their damage mitigation DCDs, though] .

Edited January 5, 2018 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Foambreaker]

As I said in another thread, from my observations I think Mara has an advantageous bug that has not been identified. The design itself seems fine.

 

I say this because I have seen a small number of Mara's just rip through people, we are talking kills that go down in seconds. Way more powerful than Mara normally is.

 

My SPECULATION is that one of those new set bonuses is active and I think it has to do with pred.

 

I think the devs should look at the class but not for nerfs, for bugs.

Edited January 5, 2018 by Foambreaker

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

As I said in another thread, from my observations I think Mara has an advantageous bug that has not been identified. The design itself seems fine.

 

I say this because I have seen a small number of Mara's just rip through people, we are talking kills that go down in seconds. Way more powerful than Mara normally is.

 

My SPECULATION is that one of those new set bonuses is active and I think it has to do with pred.

 

I think the devs should look at the class but not for nerfs, for bugs.

 

Well, given that we know there were some other classes that were effected by the set bonus bug, that possibility can't be ruled out. Speaking only for myself, as a Carnage Marauder, my numbers are the same as they were as of 5.6[ but less than before 5.6].

 

A lot of people seem to be unable to acknoweldge that not all the specs perform the same. Fury has higher DPS than both Carnage and Annihilation and because of their anti-cc passives and their greater mobility, they tend to have more uptime because they aren't getting CCec as much and have multiple leaps. Their DPS is a lot higher than it should be compared to the other mara specs and that applies even more so in PVE.

 

If people don't acknowledge the differences it would be wrong to assume every Marauder is performing the same.

 

That said, if you are seeing this across all specs than it should certainly should be looked into, there would be no harm in checking and BW said they would be addressing all the specs the bug applies to, which I believe they already have at this point. Any such bug would however be easily seen in parsing if it were DPS related. That's how the merc set bonus bug was discovered and proved.

 

There is another possibility that could explain what you are seeing. There is an exploit right now that using certain relics buffs a players mastery stat to obscene levels which you are seeing a lot of in Ranked, the only thing is it's not class or spec related, if effects all classes/specs the same. I have seen it once in regs though, but only once. I'm seeing people with mainhand damage bonus in excess of 5000 +. I don't know if it has been addressed and I don't know when it started. It's easy to see the effect the relics have by just inspecting another player.

 

It is an exploit without question and I know it has been reported to BW recently. As there has not been a new patch since I saw it last, I'd imagine the exploit is still operational.

[CaptRogue]

That said, I would love to hear the justifications people have why Marauder is the only class in the game without any self heals. No one thinks that it's a little odd they are the only one? You can't say it's because it's a pure DPS class because so is Sniper, and and they have some of the best defensives in the game in addition to self heals. Tanks take more damage than Snipers do.

 

What in the world are you smoking?! lol

Snipers are one of the squishiest in game in PvP setting. (Which is what is being discussed here.)

They do NOT have some of the best defensives in game, nor are their "self heals" any good at really healing themselves when being attacked aside from a slight percentage. *SMH*

 

And to claim "tanks take more damage than Snipers do." dude I don't know who or what you've been facing but in PvP, especially ranked, Snipers can easily be taken down.

Tanks, they take & absorb tons of damage, which is their JOB, but they still stand. Half that damage they hold, a sniper crumbles shortly under it. So no that's a bunk of bull.

[Tsillah]

snippety

 

My comments are purely from a PvE point of view and you reply with PvP concerns, so our exchange is pointless. I cannot say anything about how the marauder performs in PvP since I don't play much PvP to begin with.

 

So let me be clear my views only represent PvE and not PvP. Consider my views a response to the OP's comment about NiM raiding.

[Foambreaker]

...

 

Agreed we are talking about Fury, after 3? threads I thought that had been more or less established.

 

I think the devs need to look, like I said something seems wrong.