Shae Vizla

[Monumenta]

We've already seen in many of these "I KNOW I did not meet the criteria to receive X item, but I want it, so let me have it anyway" threads that there were many people who remained subscribed due primarily, or in part, to those incentives and that without the added incentive of those rewards, they would not have remained subscribed.

 

People say a lot of things and I've been in these threads too and I don't recall 'many' people claiming what you say. I do recall you commenting in said threads more than any other poster, and sometimes more than every other poster in a thread combined, and a vocal minority of the same peeps reiterating the same tired lack of understanding of business, ethics, and legal contracts that's once again been displayed by the same people in this one. Go ahead and link me to these many peoples comments and prove me wrong if you can.

 

Bottom line is, if the company didn't make more money while the promotion was on then before then it was a failure, that is how promotions work.

[Iloveitsgame]

This content not for money, will be stupid if they add Shae or Nico, or hexid in Market now for money. I don't think that so much people really need this content at all.

On this moment we have pretty much interesting and good companions.

[Ratajack]

People say a lot of things and I've been in these threads too and I don't recall 'many' people claiming what you say. I do recall you commenting in said threads more than any other poster, and sometimes more than every other poster in a thread combined, and a vocal minority of the same peeps reiterating the same tired lack of understanding of business, ethics, and legal contracts that's once again been displayed by the same people in this one. Go ahead and link me to these many peoples comments and prove me wrong if you can.

 

Bottom line is, if the company didn't make more money while the promotion was on then before then it was a failure, that is how promotions work.

 

I'm not going to do your research for you.

 

The evidence is readily available for those not too averse to effort to find it.

 

Besides, even if I were to do your research for you and link posters who remained subbed due primarily, or in part, to the added incentive of those rewards, you've already proven that you would not believe those posters, since in your words "People say a lot of things".

 

There are many factors that determine the success of any "promotion".

 

A promotion does not have to result in "more money than before" to be considered a success.

 

Sometimes a promotion is a success even if it only results in more revenue than would have been produced without said promotion. Sometimes, a promotion is a success even if all it does is to increase "name visibility".

 

But, go on with your bad self and keep fighting to enable those with their false sense of entitlement. How has that gone for you, so far?

[CrutchCricket]

But, go on with your bad self and keep fighting to enable those with their false sense of entitlement. How has that gone for you, so far?

Well we got the Karkkan Daggerstar and the second 12xp event which eventually lead to a permanent 6ish xp increase. You know, those things you keep ignoring. As well as the offical "noting" of interest in other shinies.

 

So, all in all, not bad, considering. Rome wasn't built in a day after all.

 

Also you got it all wrong. We're not here to enable false entitlement, we're here to defeat it.

[CrazyCT]

I'm surprised that Daggerstar can get off the ground, with the amount off people desperately clutching at it.

[Ratajack]

Well we got the Karkkan Daggerstar and the second 12xp event which eventually lead to a permanent 6ish xp increase. You know, those things you keep ignoring. As well as the offical "noting" of interest in other shinies.

 

So, all in all, not bad, considering. Rome wasn't built in a day after all.

 

Also you got it all wrong. We're not here to enable false entitlement, we're here to defeat it.

 

So, you're saying that those people that met the criteria to receive those past subscriber rewards are not entitled to have them? Meeting the criteria is the definition of entitled.

 

Those who KNOW that they did NOT meet the criteria but expect to be able to receive those rewards anyway are the ones suffering from a false sense of entitlement, as they are NOT entitled to have the rewards if they did NOT meet the criteria to receive them.

[LordFell]

I basically skipped the thread, but...

 

Not opposed to said character coming back, but under the same conditions as the first. (Subscribe between X and Y)

I'm also not opposed to any character coming back, but I'm not a fan of this subscription idea. As someone who is usually a subscriber, I've got the vast majority of subscriber rewards. If they offer old companions (or rewards) again, in the future... I'll probably still be subscribed. Where's MY reward? No, I already got that reward. Where's MY reward???

 

...again, I'm entirely comfortable with other players getting access to the stuff I've already got. My Shae Vizla isn't in any way made less by someone else having access to her. I feel it would make the most sense (and aggravate the fewest people) by putting old rewards like Shae in the Cartel Market.

[CrutchCricket]

I'm surprised that Daggerstar can get off the ground, with the amount off people desperately clutching at it.

Oh, don't worry, there's more of them around now;)

 

So, you're saying that those people that met the criteria to receive those past subscriber rewards are not entitled to have them?

They're not entitled to be the only ones to have them, for all eternity.

 

Nor (and this is the real important bit) are they entitled to make that call one way or another.

 

But you know this, no matter how much you ignore it.

[BRKMSN]

Nor (and this is the real important bit) are they entitled to make that call one way or another.

.

Maybe not, but I would reckon that the players with the most "influence" on the decision are the ones that have been subscribed throughout ... and that's the part you just can't stand.

 

Cheer up, though, some of them agree with you. It would be more hopeful (for you) if they all did ... but they don't ... and you know that.

[CrutchCricket]

Maybe not, but I would reckon that the players with the most "influence" on the decision are the ones that have been subscribed throughout ... and that's the part you just can't stand.

You mean like how people who wanted legacy datacrons, faster XP gains (including the 12xp which was at it inception a pre-order/sub reward shiny), more solo content etc. were subscribers throughout?

 

You're either wrong about the subscribers' influence or wrong about what they want. Though if you think Musco or anyone else combs through these threads, sorts us all out in pro vs against and then goes through line by line checking our sub stats, I don't know what to tell you.

[BRKMSN]

You mean like how people who wanted legacy datacrons, faster XP gains (including the 12xp which was at it inception a pre-order/sub reward shiny), more solo content etc. were subscribers throughout?

 

You're either wrong about the subscribers' influence or wrong about what they want. Though if you think Musco or anyone else combs through these threads, sorts us all out in pro vs against and then goes through line by line checking our sub stats, I don't know what to tell you.

I don't think there's any scorecard. But I do think they skim the topics of interest and try to take a general reading of a divisive topic. If somebody proposed: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=900547 and it had 300 replies, all positive, I'm pretty confident they'd get that in there. But when an idea has active opposition, even with hundreds of replies, I think they take note.

 

You're acting as if I was against those changes you listed. Believe it or not, I don't side for or against something just because of your stance. I have my own opinions. The difference between those things you've listed and the sub rewards is that those things were (usually) asked for and discussed and then implemented while the return of certain sub rewards have been asked for and not implemented. The only exception being the swoop (which the 2nd time was part of a Bioware KOTOR promo since it was KOTOR themed). I also didn't see many threads asking specifically for the swoop to return. So how much the suggestion forum influenced that, I just couldn't guess.

[Ratajack]

I don't think there's any scorecard. But I do think they skim the topics of interest and try to take a general reading of a divisive topic. If somebody proposed: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=900547 and it had 300 replies, all positive, I'm pretty confident they'd get that in there. But when an idea has active opposition, even with hundreds of replies, I think they take note.

 

You're acting as if I was against those changes you listed. Believe it or not, I don't side for or against something just because of your stance. I have my own opinions. The difference between those things you've listed and the sub rewards is that those things were (usually) asked for and discussed and then implemented while the return of certain sub rewards have been asked for and not implemented. The only exception being the swoop (which the 2nd time was part of a Bioware KOTOR promo since it was KOTOR themed). I also didn't see many threads asking specifically for the swoop to return. So how much the suggestion forum influenced that, I just couldn't guess.

 

Some people know there are no scorecards, and are simply grasping at any straws they think they can find, and trying to throw a much crap at the walls as they can, in the hopes that the tiniest fragment will stick for a second.

 

Many of these same people seem to think that only THEY can determine what items can be exclusive. They want limited time item X to remain exclusive, but limited time item Y cannot be exclusive. As an example, many of those people seem to think that the past season PVP rewards must remain exclusive but the past subscriber rewards cannot be exclusive, despite the fact that both had to be earned, albeit through different methods.

[Monumenta]

As an example, many of those people seem to think that the past season PVP rewards must remain exclusive but the past subscriber rewards cannot be exclusive, despite the fact that both had to be earned, albeit through different methods.

 

You make a really good point here, I'd love for them to reskin and rename those bowcaster looking pistols from season 5 and re-release them, thanks for reminding me.

 

Honestly my, issue with the bonus companions is people being unable to do the mission and cut scene to get them not so much playing with them as a companion so, a solution would be, if those were unlocked for everybody and they (nikko, shae, hexid, ranos,etc) show up in your Odessan base but are not available as comps, maybe even give peeps decos of them who knows.

[CrutchCricket]

The difference between those things you've listed and the sub rewards is that those things were (usually) asked for and discussed and then implemented while the return of certain sub rewards have been asked for and not implemented..

So does that mean that if said shinies were returned and later some other request was made where you were in opposition and someone brought up sub rewards, you would only simply state "well, those were implemented and this is not implemented"? Ok, seems like quite a bit of verbiage to merely state the status quo, especially when the discussion is about changes to the status quo.

 

And for the record, the original 12xp was both a subscriber and pre-order reward, no different than the hutt trainer. Those who are such sticklers for forum lawyering and would in other circumstances love nothing more than to cite precedent and terms and conditions are still studiously ignoring it. Same with the Daggerstar. But whether they want to admit it or not, there was definitely a noticeable demand for the 12xp to return on the forums and return it did (though whether it was the measured forum demand or some other metric that did it, I can't say). This time, the demand is not as large (probably due to the nature of the shinies themselves), but for maybe the first time since I've been monitoring it at least, it's not being suppressed and it's been noted by the studio.

 

So it will be interesting to see what, if anything happens.

[Ratajack]

So does that mean that if said shinies were returned and later some other request was made where you were in opposition and someone brought up sub rewards, you would only simply state "well, those were implemented and this is not implemented"? Ok, seems like quite a bit of verbiage to merely state the status quo, especially when the discussion is about changes to the status quo.

 

And for the record, the original 12xp was both a subscriber and pre-order reward, no different than the hutt trainer. Those who are such sticklers for forum lawyering and would in other circumstances love nothing more than to cite precedent and terms and conditions are still studiously ignoring it. Same with the Daggerstar. But whether they want to admit it or not, there was definitely a noticeable demand for the 12xp to return on the forums and return it did (though whether it was the measured forum demand or some other metric that did it, I can't say). This time, the demand is not as large (probably due to the nature of the shinies themselves), but for maybe the first time since I've been monitoring it at least, it's not being suppressed and it's been noted by the studio.

 

So it will be interesting to see what, if anything happens.

 

 

I guess I forgot about BW making that Hutt holotrainer available again.

 

Oh, wait...

[Monumenta]

Hutt holo trainers were not a sub reward, they were given to peeps that preordered Rise of the Hutt Cartel.

 

I have this as well (I was not a sub at the time) and would not care if they offered it again if something hutt related came up, the senya holo trainer is essentially the same and more convenient as it isn't so huge.

Edited January 20, 2018 by Monumenta

[Ratajack]

Hutt holo trainers were not a sub reward, they were given to peeps that preordered Rise of the Hutt Cartel.

 

I have this as well (I was not a sub at the time) and would not care if they offered it again if something hutt related came up, the senya holo trainer is essentially the same and more convenient as it isn't so huge.

 

Again, the Senya holotrainer is simply a reskin of the Hutt Holotrainer with the same functionality, much like the celebration Jawa is a reskin of the Party Jawa with the same functionality.

 

They have not offered the Hutt holotrainer again, by any means, unless I am mistaken. That reward remains exclusive to those that actually earned it by meeting the criteria that BW set forth.

[BRKMSN]

So does that mean that if said shinies were returned and later some other request was made where you were in opposition and someone brought up sub rewards, you would only simply state "well, those were implemented and this is not implemented"? Ok, seems like quite a bit of verbiage to merely state the status quo, especially when the discussion is about changes to the status quo.

 

And for the record, the original 12xp was both a subscriber and pre-order reward, no different than the hutt trainer. Those who are such sticklers for forum lawyering and would in other circumstances love nothing more than to cite precedent and terms and conditions are still studiously ignoring it. Same with the Daggerstar. But whether they want to admit it or not, there was definitely a noticeable demand for the 12xp to return on the forums and return it did (though whether it was the measured forum demand or some other metric that did it, I can't say). This time, the demand is not as large (probably due to the nature of the shinies themselves), but for maybe the first time since I've been monitoring it at least, it's not being suppressed and it's been noted by the studio.

 

So it will be interesting to see what, if anything happens.

The first paragraph ... well it's a bit of a straw man since it hasn't happened. I will admit that I was disappointed in their decision to not use a repaint (swoop) for the KOTOR promo. IMO, they took a lazy approach since there wasn't any other KOTOR themed items that weren't cartel items.

 

I checked my inventory and my cargo bay ... I just can't seem to find my 12XP or my early access anywhere. The reason? Because those were "events" and not "items." They had durations that launched and expired at pre-specified times. Weak analogy.

Edited January 21, 2018 by BRKMSN

[BRKMSN]

You make a really good point here, I'd love for them to reskin and rename those bowcaster looking pistols from season 5 and re-release them, thanks for reminding me.

 

Honestly my, issue with the bonus companions is people being unable to do the mission and cut scene to get them not so much playing with them as a companion so, a solution would be, if those were unlocked for everybody and they (nikko, shae, hexid, ranos,etc) show up in your Odessan base but are not available as comps, maybe even give peeps decos of them who knows.

 

In hindsight, making playable content as exclusive promos may not be the best idea. The first 2 themed events were the (original) Rakghoul event and the Chevin event. They were created as one-time only events. That was not only bad for players that would join the game later or weren't playing that week, but it was a waste of development time and resources for content that would serve a very minute timeframe in the "lifespan" of a game. All future events were designed to be recurring which made them a better investment. While the bonus content is still replayable to those that qualified, it still seems like a waste of development time compared to "items" which can easily be re-skinned.

[Monumenta]

Again, the Senya holotrainer is simply a reskin of the Hutt Holotrainer with the same functionality, much like the celebration Jawa is a reskin of the Party Jawa with the same functionality.

 

They have not offered the Hutt holotrainer again, by any means, unless I am mistaken. That reward remains exclusive to those that actually earned it by meeting the criteria that BW set forth.

 

Again?

 

No idea why you feel the need to repeat this to me when I was correcting the guy you are 'sparing with' over this on a point that you aren't referencing here...

 

I think there is more of a need to argue from some here than actual argument.

Edited January 22, 2018 by Monumenta

[CrutchCricket]

I checked my inventory and my cargo bay ... I just can't seem to find my 12XP or my early access anywhere. The reason? Because those were "events" and not "items." They had durations that launched and expired at pre-specified times. Weak analogy.

Not at all, given all the "reward criteria" rhetoric being quoted at me. They put one thing behind a preorder/subscribe wall, and then turned around and gave it out again next year all the same. The fact that both of those "expired" via them being events is irrelevant. You don't care what Nico or Shae or the hutt trainer actually are, you only care about your so-called exclusivity. So by your scope, exclusivity took the shaft that day, and well deserved I say.

 

Even if I humor you with treating events differently, that would mean you'd have no problem with DvL coming back and people earning Ranos again, right? After all, events can and have come back.

Edited January 22, 2018 by CrutchCricket

[Ratajack]

Not at all, given all the "reward criteria" rhetoric being quoted at me. They put one thing behind a preorder/subscribe wall, and then turned around and gave it out again next year all the same. The fact that both of those "expired" via them being events is irrelevant. You don't care what Nico or Shae or the hutt trainer actually are, you only care about your so-called exclusivity. So by your scope, exclusivity took the shaft that day, and well deserved I say.

 

Even if I humor you with treating events differently, that would mean you'd have no problem with DvL coming back and people earning Ranos again, right? After all, events can and have come back.

 

Since the DvL event was not time specific, if BW wanted to rerun that event with all the reward qualification criteria being the same, and offer Master Ramos as the light side companion, I would have no problem with that.

 

That, however, would not guarantee anyone who did not meet the requirements to receive Master Ramos the first time would receive Master Ramos the second time, even if they met all the criteria to receive the "winning companion". The dark side companion could easily win, especially since may will already have Master Ramos and there would likely be a new dark side companion.

[Monumenta]

Since the DvL event was not time specific, if BW wanted to rerun that event with all the reward qualification criteria being the same, and offer Master Ramos as the light side companion, I would have no problem with that.

 

That, however, would not guarantee anyone who did not meet the requirements to receive Master Ramos the first time would receive Master Ramos the second time, even if they met all the criteria to receive the "winning companion". The dark side companion could easily win, especially since may will already have Master Ramos and there would likely be a new dark side companion.

 

Same with the 'event' we just got Hexid from, they could run that event again and insert any of the bonus companions in place of Hexid, or it could run again with a completely different reward. Especially if the DvsL event were to happen again, with all the reward qualification criteria being the same or different or whatever the current devs want from it (you know because forum lawyers don't decide and probably wont influence actual real dev decisions,) and the Dark side wins already giving peeps a second chance at Hexid. Or next DvsL could have Shae and Nikko or Hk55 as the rewards instead of those 2 or the reward could be the whole hk chapter.

 

Bioware can make any of these things happen and is legally and morally in their right to do so if they choose. I personally as a holder of all these bonus companions, hope they do, more content for more current players is the obvious right choice for Swtor.

Edited January 22, 2018 by Monumenta

[BRKMSN]

Not at all, given all the "reward criteria" rhetoric being quoted at me. They put one thing behind a preorder/subscribe wall, and then turned around and gave it out again next year all the same. The fact that both of those "expired" via them being events is irrelevant. You don't care what Nico or Shae or the hutt trainer actually are, you only care about your so-called exclusivity. So by your scope, exclusivity took the shaft that day, and well deserved I say.

 

Even if I humor you with treating events differently, that would mean you'd have no problem with DvL coming back and people earning Ranos again, right? After all, events can and have come back.

 

The original 12x XP boost was, as you said, a preorder (SOR) bonus. It also required a subscription to utilize (as you expressed as well). Later, it was brought back as the Epic Story XP Boost as a May 4th promotion for subscribers (to pave the way for the upcoming level cap increase. Just because these were offered to subscribers, does not mean they were marketed as "subscriber rewards." The original 12 x XP required preordering SoR and then in order to use it, you had to have a sub during its duration. The Epic Story XP Boost only required you to sub at any point during it's duration. If this had been an actual subscriber reward , they would have mailed each of our characters a token that would give us the 12x XP buff whenever we wanted it.

 

The reason they offered the 12x XP in the first place was because they wanted subs (players with more than 2 active characters) that could already reach the current max level, to get as many characters as possible up to max level so that when the new content and level cap arrived, more people would be able to enjoy the end game content that required the new max level players to group. It wasn't like they were saying, "here, we need to offer something to bring in more subs," but more like they were saying, "we need to encourage subs to max level their alts to be ready for the new content."

 

FYI, you can buy the outlander token and avoid all that or now the new Masters Datacron if you want to max level, but still do the story. Should I be angry about that since it cheapened that old 12x XP event? There's a pretty big difference between an event perk and an item that I can have at any time on all my characters.

 

What does a subscriber get for subscribing on a normal month? Should I be angry that somebody that has never subbed before can sub today and have all the same subscriber benefits as I have had for subbing since launch? Subbing isn't exclusive. A reward given to a player can be. We get it. You don't like it. But the people you say I should give more credit to (Bioware) understand that offering some items as limited time exclusives adds a sense of value to the item for the recipient and encourages people that want certain items to meet the criteria in the time frame to get it (sort of like your Hover Chair at the sale price). It's business.

 

Finally, I wouldn't care if they did the DvL thing again. I originally thought that was something they would brink back every so often... until they unleashed the new DvL system. If you read the DvL achievements, they say "did such and such with a character created during a DvL event." It kind of led us to believe there could be another one down the road.

Edited January 23, 2018 by BRKMSN

[LordArtemis]

I have Shea. Its a great companion and certainly convenient for new character creations.

 

I would like to see other players have a chance to get this companion. I would prefer that players have to requalify, as they did before, but if it needs to be Cartel Market, so be it.