If SWTOR is losing players, how can Bioware turn things around?

[Tsillah]

I think there is also the factor that most F2P that are comparable to SWTOR have much better F2P models. Certainly few if any are perfect, but when you combine this games obvious shortcomings, especially with the F2P model, combined with saturation and better models in the genre it becomes a self fulfilling prophesy.

The problem is that contrary to their dodgy advertising, SWTOR is not an F2P game but has an extensive trial version that is F2P.

 

It would be more truthful and honest if they presented SWTOR as a sub game with an unlimited trial for the core stories, but because they advertiste it as an F2P game with a sub option, I think it's misleading and sets the wrong expectations.

[LordArtemis]

Please humor us, ...name one!

 

I will humor you with three....LotRO, Wildstar and STO. All three are comparable (though some may argue that WIldstar has trouble when directly compared to SWTOR) and all three have far better F2P systems in place.

 

Is that subjective? Sure. The systems have their detractors, but I think it is pretty common knowledge that these three games have good systems and SWTOR has one of the worst. Spend any amount of time around the net and you are bound to see bad reviews of SWTORs F2P system.

 

Systems that actually encourage investment in the game are key. In fact, you will find for these three games that folks often complain that the game is too addictive....they find themselves spending far too much in the markets. I did this with Wildstar, probably spent three times what I spent here.

 

I did not play this game for free when I was not subbed. The F2P system here is more punishment than fun.

Edited January 11, 2018 by LordArtemis

[LordArtemis]

The problem is that contrary to their dodgy advertising, SWTOR is not an F2P game but has an extensive trial version that is F2P.

 

It would be more truthful and honest if they presented SWTOR as a sub game with an unlimited trial for the core stories, but because they advertiste it as an F2P game with a sub option, I think it's misleading and sets the wrong expectations.

 

Fair enough, but one might argue that SWTOR is not solid enough to warrant a sub at this point....it is hit or miss on quite a few game features, so it ends up landing square in the middle.

 

SWTOR is a strange game, in that it has all of the parts of a successful MMO, but for some reason the parts do not fit well with each other. All too often the game disappoints when it should impress.

 

A good example of a HUGE improvement to fix this problem, IMO, is the Activities window. FINALLY we have a system that puts the content into one spot where it all fits nicely.

 

That is, of course, 6 years into the games existence.

Edited January 11, 2018 by LordArtemis

[Tsillah]

Fair enough, but one might argue that SWTOR is not solid enough to warrant a sub at this point....it is hit or miss on quite a few game features, so it ends up landing square in the middle.

I think one of the biggest player errors is the belief that has come into being that "subs aren't worth it". The irony is that subs are cheaper than F2P overall, because the cash shop unlocks and services end up a lot more expensive.

 

The only way to avoid that is to not make use of the cartel shop but then you'll never get a full experience. All F2P games have restrictions. So you have a choice to play with those restriction but a sub is the cheapest way for players to lift such restrictions.

 

Somehow players have a hard time doing math and are so focused on getting stuff for free but a company has to make money somehow. I've played some F2P games. By the time I got some inventory unlocked and a mount I already spent 40 bucks...that was one character.

 

Players can be their own worst enemies sometimes.

[Theeko]

I think one of the biggest player errors is the belief that has come into being that "subs aren't worth it". The irony is that subs are cheaper than F2P overall, because the cash shop unlocks and services end up a lot more expensive.

 

The only way to avoid that is to not make use of the cartel shop but then you'll never get a full experience. All F2P games have restrictions. So you have a choice to play with those restriction but a sub is the cheapest way for players to lift such restrictions.

 

Somehow players have a hard time doing math and are so focused on getting stuff for free but a company has to make money somehow. I've played some F2P games. By the time I got some inventory unlocked and a mount I already spent 40 bucks...that was one character.

 

Players can be their own worst enemies sometimes.

 

They also couldn't handle a simple server merrge without having to copy legacies ontop of each other which made alot of collectors and legit decoraters quit

[DarthSpuds]

Please humor us, ...name one!

 

Elder Scroll Online.

 

Access to EVERYTHING in the game.

 

Subs get the bonus of slightly increased Research Times, slightly more XP/Gold, and the Craft Bag.

 

All The Best

[DWho]

I think one of the biggest player errors is the belief that has come into being that "subs aren't worth it". The irony is that subs are cheaper than F2P overall, because the cash shop unlocks and services end up a lot more expensive.

 

Another way to cut into this is to make all those unlocks bind on pickup so they can't be sold for credits on the GTN. Credits are very easy to come by and even the most expensive unlocks are within most players ability to acquire with credits right now (though some will go to "illegal" means to acquire those credits)

[damonskye]

SWTOR is a strange game, in that it has all of the parts of a successful MMO, but for some reason the parts do not fit well with each other. All too often the game disappoints when it should impress

 

That's the real irony. Most other MMOs, except for World of Warcraft, would employ either a subscription model -or- a cash shop to be healthy and constantly putting out new content.

 

But like WoW, this game has both. And yet unlike WoW, we get extremely little new content.

 

Just another example: Guild Wars 2 survives on one paid expansion every two years and a cash shop, no subscription. They're putting out new content all the time.

 

What's SWTOR's excuse?

 

This is a game with an established IP, charging subscription fees, with a cash shop... and it's still a wasteland of content.

Edited January 11, 2018 by damonskye

[Isnogut]

Elder Scroll Online.

 

Access to EVERYTHING in the game.

 

Subs get the bonus of slightly increased Research Times, slightly more XP/Gold, and the Craft Bag.

 

All The Best

Since when got ESO F2P?! Recent news mention only that ESO will go F2P this year...

But truly I haven't been recently on the ESO site to see their news. Thanks for the info.

[Isnogut]

That's the real irony. Most other MMOs, except for World of Warcraft, would employ either a subscription model -or- a cash shop to be healthy and constantly putting out new content.

 

But like WoW, this game has both. And yet unlike WoW, we get extremely little new content.

 

Just another example: Guild Wars 2 survives on one paid expansion every two years and a cash shop, no subscription. They're putting out new content all the time.

 

What's SWTOR's excuse?

 

This is a game with an established IP, charging subscription fees, with a cash shop... and it's still a wasteland of content.

That's not BoiWares choice but EA.

 

If you ask me, EA's doing is what broke BioWares neck and diminish SWTO's player base.

[Puppypickles]

I will humor you with three....LotRO, Wildstar and STO. All three are comparable (though some may argue that WIldstar has trouble when directly compared to SWTOR) and all three have far better F2P systems in place.

 

Is that subjective? Sure. The systems have their detractors, but I think it is pretty common knowledge that these three games have good systems and SWTOR has one of the worst. Spend any amount of time around the net and you are bound to see bad reviews of SWTORs F2P system.

 

Systems that actually encourage investment in the game are key. In fact, you will find for these three games that folks often complain that the game is too addictive....they find themselves spending far too much in the markets. I did this with Wildstar, probably spent three times what I spent here.

 

I did not play this game for free when I was not subbed. The F2P system here is more punishment than fun.

 

LOTRO? Are you serious?

 

1. End game based around lootbox gambling, with RMT sellers now plaguing /world selling black steel keys.

 

2. No viable catch up for new players. Want to get to end game? Then you need to grind through hours and hours & thousands of quests to get class trait points, or spend ££££s on a lvl 105 boost that costs about 4* the amount as the equivalent swtor one does.

 

3. Legendary item progression that uses the store as the primary catch up mechanism.

 

4. A subscription that doesn't give you access to all the content. Still be prepared to buy all 5 expacs. Indeed it's well known that the subscription is terrible value for money once the player is out of the first 50 levels of content.

 

5. Subscribers still need to buy beorning class & high elf race.

 

Sure lotro is great for f2p but because most players don't sub, SSG has monetised each and every aspect of the game to the point where subscribers often end up paying twice - even more so if they are on catch up. I know this because I've played lotro since May 2007.

 

SWTOR in comparison at least gives you everything as a subscriber.

[damonskye]

That's not BoiWares choice but EA.

 

If you ask me, EA's doing is what broke BioWares neck and diminish SWTO's player base.

 

I don't care who's fault it is... it needs to be fixed.

[Rheshalea]

I liked RIFTs F2P system back in the day. I don't know if it has changed lately, but basically, the way it worked was that you could play -everything- for free without drawbacks or gated stuff or anything. Those who did subscribe, though, got very nice bonuses.

RIFT also had a cash shop, but it was perfectly possible to play without ever buying anything. They had a few expansions for free, but the latest one was pay-to-play.

 

I absolutely believe SWTOR should change the F2P system to more of a Free Trial system.

None of the nonsense with looong cooldowns for the med droid if/when you die - new players may be turned off by having to respawn at the nearest base and work their way back to where they died. None of the stupidity of not being able to use this-or-that gear, which a lot of the quest rewards are nowadays. No sillily low max-credit limit, either.

And most of all, do not let F2P players play all the original stories all the way through. That is seriously the worst mistake here.

 

My reasoning is to hook them in, as a good trial version should do. Let them use nice-looking gear, let them have enough money to spend on GTN for even nicer gear and cool mounts and stuff. But if they want to unlock it for their account, PAY.

Let them enjoy ONE class story. Until close to the conclusion of Chapter 1. And if they want to know what happens next, if they want to fight the boss and see the conclusion, PAY.

 

That's it. If the original class stories don't hook them enough to at least subscribe for a month or two, they're not going to subscribe for the CXP grind either.

 

Someone else mentioned the idea of tiered Preferred players too, and yes, at this stage it should really be considered seriously. For example, increase the amount of credits Preferred players have access to depending on how much they have actually spent, be it on CCs or on subscription time. I can't honestly remember all the details about F2P and Preferred, and it's too late in the evening for me to look it up right now, but one thing's for sure, giving people access to all of the original class stories in their entirety FOR FREE is just stupid. Even when it comes with drawbacks and restrictions.

Meanwhile, us subs pay our monthly fees for access to our earned credits, all our characters, the CC grant, and the right to farm CXP...

 

Make people WANT to subscribe = don't give them the best part of the game for free. Show them the real game as it would play if they were subbed, then don't let them continue until they sub

Make people want to stay subbed after the class stories = give subs proper rewards. Like the extra chapter with HK and Z0-0M when we'd been subbed for a certain amount of time. Or some special creature companion. Something. Anything cosmetic and fun that will actually make people want to stay subbed.

 

And then market the game, dammit. There won't be any new players if they don't know the game exists. Stop pouring potential millions into fancy but mostly pointless CGI movies and use the money on for example, off the top of my head, a competition for a player-made movie with ingame cool content that really shows off the best parts of the game, for all playing styles. One PvP, one solo PVE, one group PVE, one GSF. Give the winners a monster computer and a shout-out, and use those movies to promote the game.

Approach big streamers/youtubers who draw big audiences and remind them about the game. Give them some subscription time and some stuff both for themselves and to give away to their audience in exchange for playing a bit for/with their viewers.

 

...I'd better stop now, it's already way past bedtime. But yeah, one last thing, of course, is to keep new content coming at a steady rate. Because even if there's lots and lots of content for new players, us old ones kinda want something to do, too.

 

 

Edited for typoes due to it being laaate

Edited January 11, 2018 by Rheshalea
Typoes

[Theeko]

I don't care who's fault it is... it needs to be fixed.

 

Tbh, Swg would have lasted longer imo

[DarthSpuds]

I liked RIFTs F2P system back in the day. I don't know if it has changed lately, but basically, the way it worked was that you could play -everything- for free without drawbacks or gated stuff or anything. Those who did subscribe, though, got very nice bonuses.

RIFT also had a cash shop, but it was perfectly possible to play without ever buying anything. They had a few expansions for free, but the latest one was pay-to-play.

 

Rift is one of the better F2P models I have experienced.

The absolute best was LOTRO pre-SSG, since SSG took over it has gone down hill.

Best of the current games I play is ESO, though technically that is Buy-To-Play, but the base game can be picked up for next to nothing these days.

 

All The Best

[LordArtemis]

LOTRO? Are you serious?

 

Yes, but with one caveat. Pre-SSG. It is not as good as it was before Standing Stone Games took over, but the F2P system there is still FAR superior to SWTORs system, even now.

 

That said, SWTORs subscription benefits are far superior to LOTRO....so we agree there.

Edited January 12, 2018 by LordArtemis

[olagatonjedi]

Ok, it is obvious, IMO, that expanding original class stories in some real way would be something that could draw in huge amounts of players.

 

But, here is the rub....the amount of resources available to do so is most likely limited.

 

Assuming that is true, how could they do so and keep it "cheap"?

 

This was my idea that I presented a while back....

 

Create small episode expansions for each class, released one at a time, that would be built using droids, aliens and prior dialog in the game from your characters storyline.

 

It would naturally take time to gather proper sound bites from recorded dialog to provide proper responses, and using droids or aliens as the conversation driver would mean there would be no need for voice over work. You could also mix in text messages (like signs that you read, etc) to avoid voice over.

 

As far as environment, the expansion could be presented on ships that have already been used in the game, with no need to redress. There are likely dozens of ship models that could be used.

 

I would try and find ways to make alterations of past missions to plug them into the storyline, with a few small changes to make them fresh.

 

Finally, i would drop in a few of the PVE starfighter missions, perhaps some walker missions.

 

I believe that most of the work can be pieced together from current content, assembled in such a way to make it fresh and new. It is naturally much more complicated than I am stating here....but believe me when I tell you that coders, animators and graphic artists, as well as writers can accomplish amazing things when they set their minds to it.

Haha, i can see the forum headlines now - swtor is dying, they only came out with operative storyline, they hate all classes and we will leave if you done give us a story right now. A week later, the game is dying, bw doesnt appear to be interested in keeping its non operative playerbase.

[LordArtemis]

Haha, i can see the forum headlines now - swtor is dying, they only came out with operative storyline, they hate all classes and we will leave if you done give us a story right now. A week later, the game is dying, bw doesnt appear to be interested in keeping its non operative playerbase.

 

Well, that complaint is pretty common when they focus on one class, even if it is temporary. it cant be avoided, and I would take the stance that it is not important.

[LordArtemis]

Tbh, Swg would have lasted longer imo

 

Its likely it would have. Somehow it found financial stability with the small amount of players it had when it shut down. Though it can be argued that the CU/NGE was fatal, most of the bad changes from that debacle were reversed by the time the game was closed.

 

And it was closed, at least according to what I have read, because Lucas wanted to focus the license on SWTOR, not SWG.

[CannotDeny]

Bring back abilities removed from when 5.0 drop and revert class changes, have players choose their Advanced class, give back stance dancing to warriors/knights, nut kicks to scoundrels, phase walk to ASSASSINS and SHADOWS instead of giving it to Consulars/Sorcerors, give back LIGHTNING/PEBBLES to Sins/Shadows

 

Basically revert all the stupid, worthless "let's remove abilities people don't absolutely need for their rotation!1!" changes.

I like having a lot of abilities and stance dancing was the most fun I've had in this dumb game.

[Neogima]

I’m new here so I can’t comment gameplay wise, but honestly some marketing. I know EAnand Star Wars are kind of dirty words together right now, but honestly the game, at least the new player experience, is pretty good. I’m only playing because I knew of the game way back when it launched but didn’t have a comp to rub it at the time, and I’m currently on break from WoW looking to scratch that mmo itch. I had no idea about all the massive QoL changes since beta, or the multiple expansions, or how generous the f2p model actually is here. It really needs to be marketed a lot better.

 

Aside from that, QoL changes outside of game. Not receiving those darned “one time passwords,” having to phone (long distance outside of the US) for support, remember my Authenticator from the same machine, and the most important thing to me currently which is a mobile website. These forums are hell on my phone, which is how I tend to browse these things.

 

Obviously a marketing pig needs to be timed well. WoW has an expansion on the horizon and I think FF14 just launched one, so probably not the best time right now. But as bioware should know, there’s cycles to subscription numbers and if they can line up a big marketing push with a lul in the other big MMOs it could be a great poach of some players.

[DarthSpuds]

The simplest way for Bioware to turn things around is to stop deliberately doubling-down on the mistakes they have already made.

 

Swallow some pride, admit what they got wrong (Command Levels for example) and start working towards reversing those errors.

 

Instead they seem intent on keeping the errors, and losing players.

 

All The Best

[Tsillah]

I’m new here so I can’t comment gameplay wise, but honestly some marketing. I know EAnand Star Wars are kind of dirty words together right now, but honestly the game, at least the new player experience, is pretty good.

The game does have a lot of good things in it. I would wish though that also you will be able to say that after playing this game for a couple of years. The real issue I feel is that Bioware has created a trend of pushing out more players than bringing them in.

 

And no matter how opinions may differ on what this game lacks or needs, that is a trend that needs to stop and be reversed actually. Even if the player base grows very slowly, it's still a lot better than it getting smaller and smaller especially now we've had server merges again.

Edited January 14, 2018 by Tsillah

[olagatonjedi]

The game does have a lot of good things in it. I would wish though that also you will be able to say that after playing this game for a couple of years. The real issue I feel is that Bioware has created a trend of pushing out more players than bringing them in.

Why do you see it as BW pushing people out, rather than people making their own decision to leave?

 

BW has added content, they've made balance changes, they've implemented multiple aspects into the game to try to appeal to the pvpers, the raiders, the story-folks, the decorators, etc. They have implemented a system that allows BIS to everyone, in addition to making old content useful to everyone rather than making it obsolete, wasted space. Their efforts have been to create a well-rounded, story-based game. For the star wars fan, not necessarily an MMO fan, the game itself meets the general needs of each aspect mentioned above. Does it go beyond the general needs? Perhaps, perhaps not. That's not necessarily necessarily their responsibility or obligation. I don't see how anyone can believe that they are pushing people out, aside from personal vendetta's that people have against them because their own individual expectations weren't met.

[Tsillah]

Why do you see it as BW pushing people out, rather than people making their own decision to leave?

That's very simple. When you announce something that people are very vocal against and you bring it out anyway and people leave then you have basically pushed people out.

 

What you seem to forget is that Bioware is a business that needs people to spend money on their product. Now we can play semantics all day but the bottom line is that if your decisions as a company cause you to lose more customer than you gain then you're doing something wrong.

 

Bioware has been doing a lot of things wrong and as such the player base keeps getting smaller and smaller over time. That can't go on much longer without the game being shut down. Five servers is not a lot and even those 5 aren't all well populated. I only really see 2 of them reach heavy or better status.

 

Now it was clear that we had a number of servers that were really low pop already a year to two years ago. Bioware held off on server merges then. Logical because you would hope that a new expansion would have a positive effect and you want to do that first. But 5.0 with galactic command was one of the most fought against releases of SWTOR if not the most fought against. And they pushed it out anyway. And a lot of players left as a consequence. I even took 6 months off last year in the end because of it. So call it pushing out or people making their decisions...that doesn't really matter.

 

What matters is that SWTOR keeps losing population and that is not something that you want to have when you are already down to 5 servers worldwide....even the Star Wars name isn't enough here, although it could've been if they hadn't been so stubborn in pushing things through that anyone else could easily see was a bad idea. I blame Bioware for Galactic Command and Ben Irving got fired for it. The responsibility lies there.