So many defensive cooldowns

[TrixxieTriss]

I thought we needed a new thread for this about complex game design so I started one here! http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=940387

 

😂😂😂😂

 

When a class gets to complex

[RDeanOU]

If somebody is throwing rocks at you do you hide behind glass or wood...

If somebody attacks you with an axe do you hide behind wood or rock...

If somebody throws an explosive to you still hide behind the rock? Why not the wood?

 

Because you know that wood will stop rocks but NOT an explosive.. You just instantaneously analyzed the attack and choose the correct defense. It's not that hard really.

 

You need to know what your foe is using against you in order to defend against it. That is simply common sence and having a good rotation will not help you if you choose the wrong defense. One defense does NOT cover all and should not cover all situations.

 

If you ever played EvE Online then you would learn this little fact.

 

That failure to know your enemy, is to die by your enemy. No amount of firepower or rotation skill will save you.

 

I would rather they not DUMB the game down any more that they already have....

 

Except many of the cooldowns in this game reduce all types of damage, so your point is kind of moot. Beyond that, if I have an energy shield at my disposal why should I give a flying crap whether someone is throwing rocks at me or shooting lasers?

[RDeanOU]

This thread in a nutshell:

 

Me: Why do we need 5 abilities that essentially do the same thing, but in slightly different ways?

 

Response: Cause they aren’t identical and are slightly different.

 

Me: Right, I get that they are all slightly different, but they all effectively reduce incoming damage, which is the same basic purpose. You could have just a few more globally useful abilities and you wouldn’t have to fill up your bar with so many similar but slightly different abilities.

 

Response: No, they are all slightly different and here are all the slight differences.

 

Me: Yes, I get that they are slightly different and understand those differences. That’s beside my point.

 

Response: But they are all slightly different you see. Let me explain their slight differences.

 

Me: *dies a little inside*

[RDeanOU]

It's a false question.

 

You want simplicity for the sake of simplicity. And then try to reverse the onus.

 

Actually that got me thinking. What if SWTOR played liked ESO (only other MMO I've played). No cooldowns, you can spam anything as long has you have resources, be it offensive or defensive. Only thing that acts like cooldowns is Ultimate abilities, which take a while to replenish.

Well, perhaps Swtor would also be fun played like that. It so happens that this other games has just two measly action bars - and just the one for the first fifteen levels. Is this tied-in to game mechanisms? I don't know. But it certainly is a fad. Something younger players want.

 

Wondering if we could have 4 or 5 bars worth of skills, with no CDs.

I know, not what you mentioned, but thinking out loud.

 

No, it isn’t a false question. I can absolutely explain the advantages of fewer more globally useful abilities. I’ve already done so. It’s easier to balance, easier for the player to manage, and allows the player to focus more on fight mechanics and damage rotation. It’s not simplicity for the sake of simplicity. It’s simplicity with a clear objective reason behind it.

 

No one has made any effort to offer anything similar in terms of clear advantages to the current design. The most anyone can do is state their subjective preference with nothing supporting it.

 

If you want to compare it to another game, WoW seems like the obvious choice. Most dps classes in WoW have one or two defensive abilities. I actually think WoW has gone a little far with its ability pruning, but this game is a long way from WoW in that regard. I’m not suggesting we remove all cooldowns or even go as far as WoW has. I’m simply questioning the wisdom of the current bloated design.

Edited December 20, 2017 by RDeanOU

[Iymurra]

Fewer abilities are hardly easier to balance and manage. If you have trouble accepting that fact I refer you to Guild Wars 2 Necromancer.

 

assuming you're a dps:

in any given fight you'll do damage. Your abilities have procs & cooldowns which create ability flows.

As examples: IO uses either unload or powershot every 7.5 seconds to proc mag shot creating two rotational sub-blocks. Combat uses precision to increase armor pen and fits high damage abilities (like that scream replacer or ravage) in the precision window (or stacks as it is now)

 

Fewer abilities simply means more repetition of abilities in a rotation. More abilities means less repetition of abilities. Fewer abilities means that any buff or nerf hits harder as you'll have more instances of that ability per given amount of time compared to a more complex class.

As another example: in IO again. Should mag shot suddenly be buffed to do 45% of a tanks max health that allows an enterprising soul to mag shot>ps>mag shot and kill a tank in what is effectively 3 seconds.

If an enterprising dev wanted to maintain that damage level but remove the spike he could simply nerf mag shot damage by 25% and buff one of the DoT effects to compensate for the lost damage. Boom, now you're doing equivalent damage over a longer duration.

 

TL;DR - More abilities gives greater leniency in balancing

 

Same issue in GW2? Causes spec death or is not touched.

 

If you have ESO examples of UP specs/abilities that were touched by the nerf bat and came out with a gameplay change that did not preclude the use of that ability nor did it keep that ability overperforming... I'd love for you to share.

 

TL;DR2 ' Less complex' does not equate to 'easier to balance'

 

Now - as a callout as someone is likely going to bring this up

The Devs do not always use the same rotation that we players do and sometimes we find a way that ends up doing more damage than was expected. This can create damage variance and throw classes out of balance. I would advocate for more transparency between the class balance devs and players (allow us to give you more samples of under or overperforming things) to help resolve this uncommon occurance.

But again, easier to balance complex rotations and move to the directed rotation. Simply nerf the undesired filler and transfer damage to the desired filler/point in the rotation or remove the possibility entirely should the rotation be over-performing.

Edited December 20, 2017 by Iymurra

[TrixxieTriss]

This thread in a nutshell:

 

Me: Why do we need 5 abilities that essentially do the same thing, but in slightly different ways?

 

Response: Cause they aren’t identical and are slightly different.

 

Me: Right, I get that they are all slightly different, but they all effectively reduce incoming damage, which is the same basic purpose. You could have just a few more globally useful abilities and you wouldn’t have to fill up your bar with so many similar but slightly different abilities.

 

Response: No, they are all slightly different and here are all the slight differences.

 

Me: Yes, I get that they are slightly different and understand those differences. That’s beside my point.

 

Response: But they are all slightly different you see. Let me explain their slight differences.

 

Me: *dies a little inside*

 

But they aren’t slightly different. How is Camo slightly different 🙄

[Draqsko]

One thing to keep in mind is that not all of those DCDs are Marauder DCDs. Some of them are shared with Sith Warriors, who can be full tank specs, and have DCDs a core part of their gameplay.

 

Any base class that has the option of an advanced class with a tank spec is going to get some DCDs that way.

 

 

What you want to know is why the Marauder has a bunch of DCDs beyond that.

 

 

The answer is because people who played Marauders begged, whined, complained, ranted, and generally made a nuisance of them selves to get more DCDs, because:

 

• Moving out of the AOE reduces my DPS on raid bosses.
  
• Why should tanks get more DCDs in PvP?
  
• Hey, that other class has more DCDs and offheals in PvP, NOT FAIR!
  
• MOAR BUTTONS NOW!
  
• Why not?
  

 

I'm sure I forgot a few reasons in there.

 

 

In any case the Devs listened to the feedback and added some DCDs. Or at least switched things around and mixed up how defensives work, I don't keep especially close track of Guardian/Sentinel changes.

 

TLDR version, Marauders indeed don't have to have that many DCDs, but people playing them asked for more until the Devs gave them more.

 

 

If you're not using particular DCDs much just leave 'em off your bar, and let the progression raiders and PvP enthusiasts use them. Niche utility use is not mandatory for most gameplay in SWTOR.

 

Marauders and Sentinels have always had Guarded By the Force, Rebuke, Pacify, Saber Ward and Force Camo, not sure where you get that players asked for them, they've been there since launch.

 

Guardians and Juggernauts have had Focused Defense added, first version was the one that used focus to heal per hit, then it was changed to the current mechanic because that robbed dps. In fact that was one of the arguments, that Sentinels and Marauders had better DCDs than the tank capable AC off the same base class.

[Draqsko]

This is yet another reply that completely misses the point of my post. You can lower the cd timer of defensive cd’s, make them more potent, or extend their durations. All of these options could allow you to mitigate just as much damage without forcing you to use half a quick bar or more for just defensives.

 

Undying Rage is the best DCD in the game, 99% DR against everything , no way that will be put on a lower cooldown because that would unbalance PVP even worse than it already favors Marauders who know what they are doing, and the same goes for extending the duration (which would make it an instant win inside of a burst window). You use this when you are taking a lot of damage but need to stay in the fight to either burn the healer in PVP or down the boss at enrage.

 

Cloak of Pain is going to be your standard go to DCD in all situations of constant moderate to light damage. With proper use, you can achieve 50% uptime with it (60s CD, with 30s max duration if you take damage the whole time) and as a melee you'll be far more likely to achieve that given how most fight mechanics work in PVE and PVP. It also increases your DPS by returning damage and feeding you rage if specced.

 

Obfuscate is what you use to make snipers and gunslingers cower in fear (at least the non-eng/DF builds, forget using it on ENG/DF actually just forget fighting them as a marauder and go to a different node). It's also useful for Ops and FPs where a non-boss champion NPC breaks free from the tank aggro and starts attacking the healer. Obfuscate will basically make them miss 90% of the time until the tank can regain control.

 

Force Camo is your aggro drop, in both PVE and PVP. Pull the boss off the tank, Force Camo and watch the boss go right back to the tank. Realized that Force Leaping in the middle of the other team was a bad idea when everyone on your team goes to the other node and they open up on you, Force Camo and ****.

 

Saber Ward you get because it's a Knight/Warrior DCD but you are free to not use it if you want. However 50% defense chance and 25% F/T DR is really nice in certain situations. Very useful when you consider you will be eating more white damage than the other 2 non-stealth melee DPS given you are in medium armor and they are in heavy armor.

 

Now let's compare that to say a Guardian DPS which is still a 'pure' DPS, there is no such thing as a hybrid spec, you are either a full on tank or a full on DPS since they removed the skill trees in 3.0.

 

Guardians get:

 

Enure - Faked HP plus 15% DR

 

Saber Ward - Same as yours except we get Blade Turning added for the first 2 seconds granting 100% M/R defense chance.

 

Saber Reflect - The original make tunnelers whine and cheese boss mechanics skill.

 

Guardian Leap - Leap to a teammate giving them DR and threat drop. Healers will love when you GL to them while they are getting focused in PVP, and tanks will love it when you save their aggro by GLing to the person that pulled it in PVE.

 

Guard - Spread the love healers get from the other team in PVP, or decrease threat from another person if the tank isn't guarding you. Don't worry you don't take guard damage in PVE it's a free 5% DR plus threat reduction.

 

Focused Defense - heals while taking damage, needed for PVP and PVE since you can get a H2F off most things if used properly and chained with other DCDs. For example in Czerka Labs first boss MM, I'll eat the full lightning spike with FD up just to keep on the boss and then FL to the adds when they spawn which times up perfectly with the end of FD.

 

Challenging Call - Threat drop (for DPS specs), AOE DR, and if you spec into it a bubble for everyone else in range like sage/sorc bubble.

 

And despite all those utilities and DCDs, I wouldn't want to give any of them up or alter them because they give me flexibility in dealing with whatever situation I have in front of me. Do I need to hold aggro and stay alive while the healer raises and buffs the tank or another dps? I can do that with proper chaining and stacking of DCDs. Burn phase on an Ops boss with a melee aoe? Chain those DCDs and give your healer a break while you do your job.

 

And I won't even get into PVP which is entirely balanced on the fact that you have a variety of options and how you use them and which order will usually determine who wins. Reducing the number of DCDs and 'simplifying' combat will take away the vast amount of play and counter play that is available in SWTOR combat. There's no dodge mechanic in this game, so you are getting hit based on gear and your abilities and how you use them. Reducing that will just reduce PVP down to whichever class does the most damage, has the best DCD and the most hp (because some classes can get endurance buffs and others don't).

[BoySaber]

This is yet another reply that completely misses the point of my post. You can lower the cd timer of defensive cd’s, make them more potent, or extend their durations. All of these options could allow you to mitigate just as much damage without forcing you to use half a quick bar or more for just defensives.

 

So you can pay for action bars. It is business aspect of the game. If they would fit all skills into 2 action bars, they lose income on selling basic user interface. Thats the main reason. I don't think that these DCD's specifically are the real problem, as the skills itself as a general design are. And they will remain problematic for the rest of the game's life because they don't listen to player's feedback, and even if they did, they don't have men to pull it off.

[Draqsko]

So you can pay for action bars. It is business aspect of the game. If they would fit all skills into 2 action bars, they lose income on selling basic user interface. Thats the main reason. I don't think that these DCD's specifically are the real problem, as the skills itself as a general design are. And they will remain problematic for the rest of the game's life because they don't listen to player's feedback, and even if they did, they don't have men to pull it off.

 

Except all those abilities existed before SWTOR was F2P. Marauders have gained attack abilities since launch, not DCDs.

[Tsillah]

No, it isn’t a false question. I can absolutely explain the advantages of fewer more globally useful abilities. I’ve already done so. It’s easier to balance, easier for the player to manage, and allows the player to focus more on fight mechanics and damage rotation. It’s not simplicity for the sake of simplicity. It’s simplicity with a clear objective reason behind it.

The marauder/sentinel has always been sort of the class that is more complex. Some people do like a more complex class to master. You could argue that it's complexity for the sake of complexity, but that might actually be the point. However, I never quite understood why they did this with the class that everybody knew was going to appeal to all the noobs...because 2 lightsabers.

But MMOs tend to have one or two classes that are more complex because there are players who like that.

 

No one has made any effort to offer anything similar in terms of clear advantages to the current design. The most anyone can do is state their subjective preference with nothing supporting it.

As mentioned the only advantage is to appeal to a specific demographic who like complexity and mastering it. Ability bloat is a thing and I personally am for simplification. Personally I would like to be able to fit all my skills in the two main skill bars (not counting mounts, travel options, etc.).

 

If you want to compare it to another game, WoW seems like the obvious choice. Most dps classes in WoW have one or two defensive abilities. I actually think WoW has gone a little far with its ability pruning, but this game is a long way from WoW in that regard. I’m not suggesting we remove all cooldowns or even go as far as WoW has. I’m simply questioning the wisdom of the current bloated design.

Not sure how WoW works but tanking in SWTOR is already very different from other games I've played so I'm not sure if that comparison works. What I will tell you that if they take some skills away there will be rage on the forum over people's favourite skills disappearing and the game being dumbed down even more.

[Kaedusz]

Some people want to make classes similar to heroes in BF. This is a RPG, let it stay that way. Edited December 20, 2017 by Kaedusz

[Uruare]

But, but, but...how would tryhards feel like they've got mad skeelz if they didn't have 40 buttons to manage?

 

You can't possibly imagine that anyone could feel like they've got mAdSkIlLzOrZ if they only had...say...ten?

 

The answer is clearly that we need 50 more defensive CD's, and each of them need to be on 72 minute timers, and variable sets of 4-8 of them need to be used in succession while you're being attacked, or just after you've been attacked, or just before you're going to be attacked (STACK PSYCHIC YOU NOOB AND STOP BEING A SCRUB) in order to defend against specific damage types from specific ranges and from specific damage sources.

 

If you don't agree, you clearly have no l337$K1LLZ and just want everything to be faceroll.

[Sareeph]

No, it isn’t a false question. I can absolutely explain the advantages of fewer more globally useful abilities. I’ve already done so. It’s easier to balance, easier for the player to manage, and allows the player to focus more on fight mechanics and damage rotation. It’s not simplicity for the sake of simplicity. It’s simplicity with a clear objective reason behind it.

 

Balance? Have you played this game? They have never balanced it and it was NOT MEANT to be balanced. Every class has something that can be used to advantage by design. Knowing "how best" to use it is what separates poor, mediocre and skilled players.

 

Easy to manage? Many have no problems what so ever managing as is. There will always be someone who has problems managing or grasping a concept no matter how dumbed down we try to make it.

 

Focus? Focus is what allows you to manage these dcd's. Those that lack it will be the one's having problems with them. People that have problems with mechanics tend to be rotation/keyboard tunnelers and they will still have problems if you gave them zero dcd's.

 

Simplicity for simplicity sake, I would say you are asking for simplicity for your own sake.

[Tsillah]

I would say you are asking for simplicity for your own sake.

Is that not reason enough to voice an opinion? In the end we all just really represent ourselves no matter what player groups or majorities we like to invent around it.

 

So if he's asking for himself, that's fair enough, but ability bloat is hardly a new topic here.

Edited December 20, 2017 by Tsillah

[Sareeph]

Is that not reason enough to voice an opinion? In the end we all just really represent ourselves no matter what player groups or majorities we like to invent around it.

 

So if he's asking for himself, that's fair enough, but ability bloat is hardly a new topic here.

 

If he would have said it's for himself then I would not have responded but that was not his intention.

 

Also, please understand that this isn't about what I, personally, can or cannot do. This is a question about what is ideal game design. I submit that this kind of ability bloat is a result of developers who can't or won't make choices about which abilities are really necessary. It isn't beneficial for players. It's just lazy.

Edited December 20, 2017 by Sareeph

[olagatonjedi]

No, it isn’t a false question. I can absolutely explain the advantages of fewer more globally useful abilities. I’ve already done so. It’s easier to balance, easier for the player to manage, and allows the player to focus more on fight mechanics and damage rotation. It’s not simplicity for the sake of simplicity. It’s simplicity with a clear objective reason behind it.

 

No one has made any effort to offer anything similar in terms of clear advantages to the current design. The most anyone can do is state their subjective preference with nothing supporting it.

I think you are choosing what to accept as adequate rebuttals to your claims. Ive already addressed the reasons, logistically, in another post, and it appears they were glanced over. So ill put it in much simpler terms. I'll instead do what you did and see if you accept it as an answer, and because it will mirror your post, it must be accepted by you or your whole argument gets thrown out:

 

It’s harder to balance (no reason why?), harder for the player to manage, and disallows the player to focus more on fight mechanics and damage rotations.

 

Sometimes making things easier isnt the best or most obvious move, especially when challenge is an objective. And in this case, making things easier doesnt benefit everyone equally. You want easier management. I want more complex management. Who should BW cater to?

[RDeanOU]

I think you are choosing what to accept as adequate rebuttals to your claims. Ive already addressed the reasons, logistically, in another post, and it appears they were glanced over. So ill put it in much simpler terms. I'll instead do what you did and see if you accept it as an answer, and because it will mirror your post, it must be accepted by you or your whole argument gets thrown out:

 

It’s harder to balance (no reason why?), harder for the player to manage, and disallows the player to focus more on fight mechanics and damage rotations.

 

Sometimes making things easier isnt the best or most obvious move, especially when challenge is an objective. And in this case, making things easier doesnt benefit everyone equally. You want easier management. I want more complex management. Who should BW cater to?

 

You aren’t paying attention. I’m all for the game being a challenge. The question is how to create that challenge. Good design would create challenge through unique encounters and properly tuned fights. The challenge should come from the content itself, not from being weighed down with a glut of abilities.

 

Just because challenge is something desirable, that doesn’t mean it’s desireable in every facet of the game. I like chocolate sauce, but it isn’t an appropriate topping for every dish. Defensive cooldowns should be intuitive. It’s not an appropriate or desirable spot to insert challenge into the game.

[Tsillah]

If he would have said it's for himself then I would not have responded but that was not his intention.

Of course it was. People always like to validate their opinions by acting like they have the truth or represent some majority. In spite of what he says, it's still his personal opinion.

 

If you look at it from an efficiency point of view then he has a point of course, but efficiency isn't all it's about and certainly not for everybody.

 

So really, yes, he said what he said, but it's still a battle of opinions here on these forums and he can really only speak for himself as I can only really speak for myself.

 

It's a fact that fewer skills is easier. It's an opinion that easier is also more fun. Not everyone will see it the same way. That's basically what this discussion comes down to in the end.

[Draqsko]

Is that not reason enough to voice an opinion? In the end we all just really represent ourselves no matter what player groups or majorities we like to invent around it.

 

So if he's asking for himself, that's fair enough, but ability bloat is hardly a new topic here.

 

But Marauders have had no ability bloat on DCDs, they have the same exact DCDs in the same form that they did at launch. All their ability bloat has come on offensive utility skills and attack abilities.

 

Let's call a spade a spade here on what is filling up a marauder's hot bar. They have the same 5 DCDs they've had since launch and it wasn't an issue then with overstuffing a hot bar, you could fit literally everything on 3 bars, including base class skills you didn't even use anymore.

[Kaedusz]

Let me say what many of us are thinking here.

 

this is a l2p issue.

 

or wrong genre issue

Edited December 20, 2017 by Kaedusz

[olagatonjedi]

You aren’t paying attention. I’m all for the game being a challenge. The question is how to create that challenge. Good design would create challenge through unique encounters and properly tuned fights. The challenge should come from the content itself, not from being weighed down with a glut of abilities.

 

Just because challenge is something desirable, that doesn’t mean it’s desireable in every facet of the game. I like chocolate sauce, but it isn’t an appropriate topping for every dish. Defensive cooldowns should be intuitive. It’s not an appropriate or desirable spot to insert challenge into the game.

I am paying very good attention. I see your opinion differes from mine. I believe that challenge can be created in a varietyof different ways, and depending on the complexity of the game, certain implemwntations will have bigger or smaller impacts on challenge. Nothing you have said supports that a different type of challenge would benefit the game holistically. Your proposal would benefit YOU and maybe some of the players, just like keeping it this way benefits other players.

 

Some people see unique encounters to create challenge as a means to open up bugs and other issues with balance. Every fight that is created has to be based off of some baseline of abilities, multiplied by 12 different specs, to maintain or create balance. It is near impossible to create unique encounters without having more counters available to the uniqueness - thus 5 dcds that work differently.

 

Dont get me wrong, from a personal standpoint, I absolutely detest having a large number of abilities to rotate, BUT i understand the need for them if I am also asking for new, unique content.

Edited December 20, 2017 by olagatonjedi

[RDeanOU]

I am paying very good attention. I see your opinion differes from mine. I believe that challenge can be created in a varietyof different ways, and depending on the complexity of the game, certain implemwntations will have bigger or smaller impacts on challenge. Nothing you have said supports that a different type of challenge would benefit the game holistically. Your proposal would benefit YOU and maybe some of the players, just like keeping it this way benefits other players.

 

Some people see unique encounters to create challenge as a means to open up bugs and other issues with balance. Every fight that is created has to be based off of some baseline of abilities, multiplied by 12 different specs, to maintain or create balance. It is near impossible to create unique encounters without having more counters available to the uniqueness - thus 5 dcds that work differently.

 

Dont get me wrong, from a personal standpoint, I absolutely detest having a large number of abilities to rotate, BUT i understand the need for them if I am also asking for new, unique content.

 

If we cannot agree that it is more enjoyable to be challenged by content rather than the limitations and inefficiencies within one's own kit, then I guess there is nothing more to say. It seems self-evident to me that the former is far more enjoyable while the latter is just frustrating. I would rather have well designed classes that are streamlined and efficient and find challenge in the content. If you prefer to be challenged by clunky class design, I guess you are entitled to your own opinion.

[olagatonjedi]

If we cannot agree that it is more enjoyable to be challenged by content rather than the limitations and inefficiencies within one's own kit, then I guess there is nothing more to say. It seems self-evident to me that the former is far more enjoyable while the latter is just frustrating. I would rather have well designed classes that are streamlined and efficient and find challenge in the content. If you prefer to be challenged by clunky class design, I guess you are entitled to your own opinion.

Perhaps a new game would suit you better, because the groundwork has already been laid, so it is unlikely that they will rip apart the game to change and restructure the entire system to accommodate for removing "clunky design." The clunky design was likely a result of larger prioritized game systems that would allow their "dream" to come to life. When they started creating the content, they needed to counter-balance and instead of making sweeping gamewide changes, they micromanaged and added less grandiose skills that filled in the missing pieces. They cant go back now, so your request seems to be directed more towards a game still in development.

[BenduKundalini]

It’s not an appropriate or desirable spot to insert challenge into the game.

Unexplainably, everyone on this thread except two people desires it to stay the way it is.

Perhaps EA should also redesign the meaning of words such as desirable or is or self-evident...

 

To quote someone here :

You aren’t paying attention.

 

But we guess you are entitled to your own opinion.

Edited December 20, 2017 by BenduKundalini