Valkorion VS DE Sidious

[AndreyRymarczuk]

This is a debate thread, a VS match between Valkorion and Sidious both prime.

[juliushorst]

 

I like to believe DE Sidious wasn't real Sidious but an insane clone broken by flawed cloning process and Carnor Jax sabotaging the laboratory. He doesn't have his wits and cunning and bases his offensive on brute force; he wrongly believes he was cloned many times (possibly referring to failed clones in the past); he falls apart rather quickly; Mara Jade who knew him rather well doesn't believe it was really him (as mentioned in Hand of Thrawn).

On the other hand Valkorion \ Vitiate: can posses multiple hosts without damaging his sanity; can hollow and posses an adult with fully developed personality while 'Sidious' needed either a blank state clone or a little child; can extend lifespan of his host (Valkorion); can destroy planets even in his weakened and incorporeal form (while Sidious had to rely on superwepons... and misfired into his own base of operations on Byss - can you inagine Valkorion consuming Zakuul by accident?).

So, Valkorion \ Vitiate wins in my book

 

[that_Spartan_IV]

This is a debate that has gone on for a long time, and I'm still not entirely sure why as it's been answered over and over again.

 

If you want a comprehensive list that details each beings strength in the Force, their feats, accolades, and abilities, here's a link to a thread that has been dedicated to this very topic:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=790858&highlight=powerful

[AndreyRymarczuk]

I am aware, but many people seem to lowball Valkorion and overrate Sidious way too much, so i'd like to argue that Sidious has nothing over Valkorion other than his force storms which even those, he couldn't fully control, so his force storms won't be applicable in combat since they would kill him as well.

 

The quotes stating Sidious is the most powerful Dark Sider/Sith are inherently incorrect, given those very same accolades would place Sidious above the likes of the Son and Abeloth, which is most certainly not true in any manner. As well, Sidious' GOAT quotes are unsupported, given that there are other Sith with feats more impressive than Sidious' own. Even Leland Chee has said quotes can be questioned if contradicted or unsupported.

 

Also, Pablo Hidalgo has said that a character accolade being fact is dependent on who's saying it.

 

"Depends who's making the statement and whether or not they have the unbiased perspective, authority, and experience to do so."

Edited November 19, 2017 by AndreyRymarczuk

[AndreyRymarczuk]

Let's start by Vitiate's mind domination feats and planetary drain feats, which are above Sidious' own.

 

Vitiate has some very impressive mental domination feats over individuals.

 

Dominating the population of Ziost and casually draining the planet while at a VASTLY weakened state.

 

Breaking Dramath’s mind and stripping him of the Force at a young age:

 

Tenebrae broke Lord Dramath's mind, but not before revealing that he was actually his son.

 

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

 

Casually breaking the wills of both Revan and Malak, simultaneously:

 

By the time Revan and Malak approached the Emperor in his throne room, they were already at the precipice of the dark side. It took only a fraction of the Emperor's loathsome power to complete their fall. The Jedi succumbed utterly to the Sith leader's domination and returned to the Republic to spark a new conflict: the Jedi Civil War.

 

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

 

Dominating the minds of the Jedi Strike team sent to kill him, this team includes the Hero of Tython, who even by the end of Act 1, has accolades stating he’s more powerful than the likes of Satele Shan.

 

Jedi Master Tol Braga's strike team was not the first group to succumb to the Sith leader's oppressive influence.

 

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Codex Entry titled "The Emperor's Fallen Jedi (Knight).")

 

On top of that, there are the 8000 Sith Lords whose wills he dominated on Medriaas.

 

And the Sith Lords were driven by fear. Many thought the Jedi would soon wipe them all out. They were desperate for anything they could use as a weapon against the servants of the light side. Lord Vitiate played upon these fears, convincing those who answered his call to set aside their suspicions of him and of one another to join in a single glorious cause.

Once they arrived on Nathema, they quickly fell under Lord Vitiate's control. He dominated their minds, crushed their resistance. He turned them into slaves to his will, forcing them to participate in the most complex ritual of Sith sorcery ever attempted. Calling on the dark side, Lord Vitiate devoured them. He fed on their power, absorbing it into himself, utterly obliterating all traces of his victims.

But the ritual was not confined to the doomed Sith Lords. They were but the eye of the storm; the center of a vortex that spread across the entire planet. Every man, woman, and child on Nathema died that day. Every beast, bird, and fish; all the insects and plants; every living being touched by the Force was consumed. When the ritual ended, Nathema was no longer a world. It was a husk sucked dry. Lord Vitiate sacrificed millions, stealing their life force to make himself immortal. Their deaths also made him stronger than any Sith who had come before, and he ceased to be known as Lord Vitiate. On that day, the Emperor was truly born.

From (Darth Nyriss, Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan)

 

Eight thousand Sith Lords gathered on Medriaas and agreed to partake in a ritual that would bind the Sith together as an ultimate dark side weapon.

The ritual lasted ten days. Lord Vitiate orchestrated the sorcery and the planet Mediraas was consumed by the largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see. When the ritual ended, Lord Vitiate emerged as the only survivor. The pain, energy, and suffering of every living entity on the planet fueled his power and would prolong his life for centuries. The lifeless planet of Mediraas became a void in the Force and was erased from history. From that moment forward, the world would forever be known as Nathema, birthplace of the one and only Sith Emperor.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

|

As for his planetary drain feats, a vastly weakened Vitiate casually drained Ziost.

[juliushorst]

The quotes stating Sidious is the most powerful Dark Sider/Sith are inherently incorrect, given those very same accolades would place Sidious above the likes of the Son and Abeloth, which is most certainly not true in any manner.

 

Both those being were of Celestial origin so they pre-date Sith by millenia. They certainly were powerful dark side entities but they were not Sith by any means.

[AndreyRymarczuk]

Both those being were of Celestial origin so they pre-date Sith by millenia. They certainly were powerful dark side entities but they were not Sith by any means.

 

I am aware of that.

 

Many tend to point to the most powerful darksider quotes for Sidious as a way to indisputably bind Valkorion below other force users; however, they seem to support the Son's superiority to Sidious, (something that explicitly contradicts Sidious being the most powerful darksider ever). The following quotes are the ones generally referred to. It’s important to note that the first quote is from is from Luke’s point of view, and Luke had no knowledge of The Ones at this point (other than a story Yoda told him, which at the time he thought was just a story to scare him). The quotes state that Sidious is the most powerful darksider, with no exceptions being implied in the text:

 

It quickly became clear to Luke that this decrepit and seemingly defenseless old man was masterfully adept in the ways of the Dark Side of the Force. Indeed, as Vader had warned, the Emperor had become the Dark Side's most powerful expression.

--Dark Empire endnotes

 

 

Even Ulic Qel-Droma would be envious of Palpatine. He had succeeded where all others had failed in taming the Dark Side.--Taken from Dark Empire Sourcebook

 

 

However, the Son’s/Abeloth’s quotes directly contradict Sidious being the most powerful darksider ever:

 

The Son was not a Sith -- his powers existed beyond the domain of the Sith Lords.

 

-- Encyclopedia: Son

 

 

it was no good. Abeloth had a dozen times the Force strength Luke had, and he could do no more than keep her from crushing his throat.

Source: Fate of the Jedi: Vortex

 

 

You're still thinking on a mortal scale, like Vader or Palpatine. Think bigger, like a storm or a tide. Like a living Force volcano.

 

Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse

 

The third panel depicted the arcade complex again, this time with a much-changed Abeloth standing in the heart of a stormy courtyard. Her hair had grown coarse and long, her nose had flattened until it was practically gone, and her sparkling eyes had grown so sunken and dark that all that could be seen of them were the twinkles. She was raising her arms toward a cowering Daughter and a glowering Son, with long tentacles lashing from where her fingers should have been. Stepping forward to shield them was a furious Father, one hand pointing toward the swamp at the open end of the temple, the other reaching out to intercept her tentacled fingers.

Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse

 

 

"Abeloth." Luke repressed a sigh. "She's here. Somewhere. Experimenting. Using the Force with greater strength than I ever did, certainly."-FOTJ: Conviction

 

 

So essentially, the quotes claiming Sidious is the most powerful darksider ever are explicitly contradicted and are literally false. They carry no definitive value.

[adormitul]

Yeah but in the end it does not matter you see is VS match and while Valkorian can and does release more power that while not affect Sidious.

Do any of you think mind domination will affect Sidious?

Do any of you think force drain will affect Sidious?

By the way in force lighting there advantage Sidious at best or equal at worst since he can not use for storm at will and needs an period of concentration and as shown in the comics that offers an opportunity for his vs opponent to act against him.

Sidious by the way can actually use an lightsaber quite well Valkorian is not able to do that.

 

I will say Sidious will win just because he can resist everything Valkorian trows at him. In an way like Vaylin did before he used the conditioning.

[AndreyRymarczuk]

Power scales to power, if he is powerful enough to perform these feats, then surely he could perform other VERY impressive feats as well, Valkorion's sorcery surpasses Sidious' own and he also has some VERY impressive lightning feats which are more than just on par with Sidious' lightning feats. And no Sidious won't be dominated, but Valkorion can teleport and casually drain the planet along with Sidious as he did Ziost. Edited November 19, 2017 by AndreyRymarczuk

[AndreyRymarczuk]

It's true that Sidious is a superior swordsman, but many assume Vitiate is a bad duelist, that's not correct. Vitiate has used his lightsaber in the past, against the Hero of Tython. As well, to assume that one of the most powerful Sith in history wouldn't be able to use a lightsaber, makes no logical sense. Especially given that his master was implied to be Marka Ragnos, whom is noted as being an incredible swordsman. Plus, swordsmanship in general was still a staple of Sith training during the years of and before the Great Hyperspace War, the era that Vitiate initially lived during. More likely than not, he had skill in using a lightsaber, what degree is unknown, but he DID have some skill. Finally, Zakuul didn't have lightsabers before Vitiate possessed Valkorion and began to shape the Zakuul people into his own image. Somebody would have needed to teach the first Zakuul Knights how to use a lightsaber, and the only person there with any experience with lightsabers, was Vitiate/Valkorion.

[adormitul]

It's true that Sidious is a superior swordsman, but many assume Vitiate is a bad duelist, that's not correct. Vitiate has used his lightsaber in the past, against the Hero of Tython. As well, to assume that one of the most powerful Sith in history wouldn't be able to use a lightsaber, makes no logical sense. Especially given that his master was implied to be Marka Ragnos, whom is noted as being an incredible swordsman. Plus, swordsmanship in general was still a staple of Sith training during the years of and before the Great Hyperspace War, the era that Vitiate initially lived during. More likely than not, he had skill in using a lightsaber, what degree is unknown, but he DID have some skill. Finally, Zakuul didn't have lightsabers before Vitiate possessed Valkorion and began to shape the Zakuul people into his own image. Somebody would have needed to teach the first Zakuul Knights how to use a lightsaber, and the only person there with any experience with lightsabers, was Vitiate/Valkorion.

 

Okay first even if Valkorian can teleport which there is no proof he can while he has an body it takes time to drain an planet quite an lot of time its not an fast process not at all its like Sidious force storm takes to much time to be of any use. Sorry but its useless in an VS match. If Valkorian teleports and starts the ritual off planet what stops Sidious to make an force storm and use it on Valkorian then? Or better use the force storm to go where Valkroian is after all it works like an worm hole.

 

Also even if he teached the knights of Zaakul lightsaber fighting its still does not mean he can hold an candle to Sidious and by the way most of the knights suck at lightsaber fighting having no idea on how to even deflect blaster fire. That being said you can always teach yourself how to fight with one nobody has to teach you to use one after all.

Take Jade Korr he created and used an lightsaber without anyone teaching him.

[that_Spartan_IV]

Uh, no, Vitiate didn't "casually" drain Ziost, he needed tons of bloodshed to fuel that power. His planet draining feats need either rituals or tons of death. On top of which, he did not control the entire planet, which is mentioned by Lana whilst on Ziost.

 

If you want to talk about casually draining a planet, Sidious was constantly draining the entire populace of Byss, and he completely wiped their memory at the same time. While it wasn't an insta-kill feat like Vitiate, this is likely because he wanted the population to grow and reproduce, as it was one of the most heavily populated Core World's, though I will admit this is speculation.

 

Sidious' Force Storms are another thing entirely. Unlike Vitiate's planet draining, Sidious didn't need to be on the planet, as he could do this from across the galaxy. I'll give more details later, class is starting.

[AndreyRymarczuk]

''Uh, no, Vitiate didn't "casually" drain Ziost, he needed tons of bloodshed to fuel that power. His planet draining feats need either rituals or tons of death. On top of which, he did not control the entire planet, which is mentioned by Lana whilst on Ziost.''

 

He did all that so he could reach his standard level of power, you should realize that he performed the feat with his standard level of power on his own, without outside help.

 

''On top of which, he did not control the entire planet''

 

he factually only targeted and controlled the Jedi and Imperial troops present on the planet, the tools that would best serve his purposes.

 

Unleashed from his sanctuary on Yavin 4, the former Sith Emperor has now struck the Imperial world of Ziost. Using his immense power in the dark side of the Force, he has dominated the minds of the planet’s Imperial troops--as well as an elite cadre of militaristic Jedi--and has set them against the populace, engaging in a bloody slaughter.

 

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Rise of the Emperor)

 

Moving on to the subject of Palpatine’s Byss feat, it’s not nearly as impressive as you believe it is.

 

1: Byss is confirmed to be a Dark Side Nexus

 

https://imgur.com/1527LpW

 

https://imgur.com/XO6bZFL

 

https://imgur.com/S2EFyZs

https://imgur.com/KA7fcAp

 

https://imgur.com/dfchtxP

 

Anyway, you get the point. Byss is an EXTREMELY potent Dark Side nexus. Meaing, obviously, that Sidious was amped, likely very heavily, during this feat’s performance. Far more of an amp than can be argued for Vitiate on Ziost.

 

The population center of Byss is not yet fully built, and the planet still feeds Palpatine and Vader. Due to the city not being built, it’s evident that your claim that Sidious drained the world for decades, is flat out false/

 

https://imgur.com/uY5vmbD

 

https://imgur.com/oXO1vaY

 

https://imgur.com/kaNdReO

 

It should also be noted that Sidious had assistance in this feat, as his Dark Side acolytes were helping him.

 

https://imgur.com/T2ABPlJ

 

https://imgur.com/pKcJgYI

 

As for Sidious' wormholes, i'm aware he could do it from across the Galaxy, this match of course won't take place ''across the galaxy'' but on a planet. And even if Sidious summons his wormholes, Valkorion could teleport and drain the planet.

Edited November 21, 2017 by AndreyRymarczuk

[AndreyRymarczuk]

''His planet draining feats need either rituals or tons of death''

 

Considering the ritual on Nathema required the power of the 8,000 Sith to perform, Vitiate could replicate the ritual on his own in likely less time due to having the additional power of the planet and all its inhabitants plus the 8,000 Sith. After 1,300 years of growth it's not far fetched to say he could replicate it on his own with relative ease.

Edited November 21, 2017 by AndreyRymarczuk

[kepeskvaeri]

Regarding the statement that only Luke could beat Palpatine. Palpatine had mastered the 7 forms of lightsaber combat, but in his own words he only did that to humiliate the jedi so no matter how good he might have been in hos prime he had no reason countinue practising between RoTS and Dark Empire.

Most people forgett that in order to stay a master in any martial art you have to practise any Palpatine had years if not decades without practising his skills reguraly.

And in the Bane trilogy we are informed how lightsaber combat works in detail so how can Luke have gotten the training he needed in the short weeks or months at most to counter a master of the 7 forms? He didn't because an ordinary person has to train years to master a form and even a prodiy has to train for months. And no he could not have used his reflexve learning to do it because his mind would have bben flooded with every possible option that Palpatine could have used like when Bane fought Ka'sim keep in mind that if you discuss Legends you are going to have to take everything from every novel game and comic into account,

Which explains how Luke could beat him the second time around. Paplatines skills had simply atrophied to the point where he had to relly only on his force speed and strength. Luke was overwhelmed the forst time but was ready during the rematch and the litteraly disarmed Palpatine.

 

That argument is to inform all people that Palpatine is not perfect. In the end it was his own ego that took him down. For years he was the top dog and no one could beat him ad then when he was throwing his force strom around he an heir to all the knowledge and wisdom of the rule of two was cut of from the force by someone with months of training at most.

 

PS to whoever tries the Lucas said so argument, in the Legends George Lucas has no say whatsoever anymore. He may be the creator of the canon universe but for years he left other writers build the universe and everything in it he had nothing to do with the writing of Dark Empire for one. So basicly every great feat that Palpatine achives on Legends has nothing to do with Lucas so Lucas does not have a say in Legends anymore anymore than I do.

Edited November 21, 2017 by kepeskvaeri

[adormitul]

''His planet draining feats need either rituals or tons of death''

 

Considering the ritual on Nathema required the power of the 8,000 Sith to perform, Vitiate could replicate the ritual on his own in likely less time due to having the additional power of the planet and all its inhabitants plus the 8,000 Sith. After 1,300 years of growth it's not far fetched to say he could replicate it on his own with relative ease.

 

He is not Nihilus he could do that because he was an wound in the force Valkorion is not. Ziost showed it take quite some time to drain an planet.

Also you keep ignoring the wormhole force storm Sidious can make which can teleport Sidious to where Valkorian is bring Valkorian to him like he did with Luke.

 

The point is teleporting off planet and force drain the planet does not work because Sidious can force you back or he can come to you. This will just be an game of cat and mouse.

[Kaedusz]

The case of Valkorion vs Sidious is a case of conservatism vs new Star Wars.

Valkorion(Vitiate) is clearly stronger, but some people don't want this, because the image in their head that they have build for years would be destroyed, and it would be like losing part of themselves. To them it is like a retcon. Similar to how Blizzard destroyed the old lore and books like Rise of the Horde, with the new expansions.

 

+ This ''DE''' Sidious was created back when we didn't even know **** about the Sith, so DE Sidious was created in a time when he was the only real bad guy in the SW universe and the source of all trouble, ever. That's why he was amped up to such a ridiculous degree. It is ridiculous because the guy that died in such an absurd way in ep.3 can't possibly be the guy from DE. They seem like absolutely different characters, that just share the name. In other words DE has the vibe of a bad fan fiction.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Kaedusz

[that_Spartan_IV]

''Uh, no, Vitiate didn't "casually" drain Ziost, he needed tons of bloodshed to fuel that power. His planet draining feats need either rituals or tons of death. On top of which, he did not control the entire planet, which is mentioned by Lana whilst on Ziost.''

 

He did all that so he could reach his standard level of power, you should realize that he performed the feat with his standard level of power on his own, without outside help.

 

''On top of which, he did not control the entire planet''

 

he factually only targeted and controlled the Jedi and Imperial troops present on the planet, the tools that would best serve his purposes.

 

Unleashed from his sanctuary on Yavin 4, the former Sith Emperor has now struck the Imperial world of Ziost. Using his immense power in the dark side of the Force, he has dominated the minds of the planet’s Imperial troops--as well as an elite cadre of militaristic Jedi--and has set them against the populace, engaging in a bloody slaughter.

 

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Rise of the Emperor)

 

Moving on to the subject of Palpatine’s Byss feat, it’s not nearly as impressive as you believe it is.

 

1: Byss is confirmed to be a Dark Side Nexus

 

https://imgur.com/1527LpW

 

https://imgur.com/XO6bZFL

 

https://imgur.com/S2EFyZs

https://imgur.com/KA7fcAp

 

https://imgur.com/dfchtxP

 

Anyway, you get the point. Byss is an EXTREMELY potent Dark Side nexus. Meaing, obviously, that Sidious was amped, likely very heavily, during this feat’s performance. Far more of an amp than can be argued for Vitiate on Ziost.

 

The population center of Byss is not yet fully built, and the planet still feeds Palpatine and Vader. Due to the city not being built, it’s evident that your claim that Sidious drained the world for decades, is flat out false/

 

https://imgur.com/uY5vmbD

 

https://imgur.com/oXO1vaY

 

https://imgur.com/kaNdReO

 

It should also be noted that Sidious had assistance in this feat, as his Dark Side acolytes were helping him.

 

https://imgur.com/T2ABPlJ

 

https://imgur.com/pKcJgYI

 

As for Sidious' wormholes, i'm aware he could do it from across the Galaxy, this match of course won't take place ''across the galaxy'' but on a planet. And even if Sidious summons his wormholes, Valkorion could teleport and drain the planet.

 

 

The only reason Byss was a Dark Side Nexus was because if Sidious in the first place dude, stop making this thread. You already have one with this same topic in another section.

Edited November 22, 2017 by that_Spartan_IV

[AndreyRymarczuk]

The only reason Byss was a Dark Side Nexus was because if Sidious in the first place dude, stop making this thread. You already have one with this same topic in another section.

 

''The only reason Byss was a Dark Side Nexus was because if Sidious in the first place''

 

Lol what? Could you please be more clear?

 

''Dude stop making this thread.''

 

This is a DEBATE thread where my goal is to raise peoples' placement of Valkorion. Either counter my arguments, or concede you're wrong.

[that_Spartan_IV]

''The only reason Byss was a Dark Side Nexus was because of Sidious in the first place''

 

Lol what? Could you please be more clear?

 

''Dude stop making this thread.''

 

This is a DEBATE thread where my goal is to raise peoples' placement of Valkorion. Either counter my arguments, or concede you're wrong.

 

 

"Despite this outward appearance, however, Emperor Palpatine's dark side energies were everywhere, corrupting not only the inhabitants, but the planet itself."

 

Source: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Byss/Legends

 

There. Byss was a Dark Side nexus because of Sidious, meaning your argument in that case is invalid.

 

And it doesn't matter what thread it is, you're not supposed to make multiples at the same time.

 

Edit: I can understand if someone thinks that Valkorion is more powerful. I get it. But I just don't think he stands up to Sidious.

 

Here's a good Dark Empire source: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/shootingnova/blog/de-palpatine-darth-sidious-respect-thread/101798/

Edited November 22, 2017 by that_Spartan_IV

[juliushorst]

Do any of you think mind domination will affect Sidious?

Do any of you think force drain will affect Sidious?

Sidious can be affected by a 'normal' disease (Darth Vader and the Ghost Prison).

Sidious was finally defeated by a non-Force sensitive man with a blaster destroying his body and a dying Force sensitive man imprisoning his spirit and taking him to the Force Netherworld (Empire's End).

Both those techniques are far less advanced than what Vitiate \ Valkorion has in store.

By the way in force lighting there advantage Sidious at best or equal at worst since he can not use for storm at will and needs an period of concentration and as shown in the comics that offers an opportunity for his vs opponent to act against him.

Sidious by the way can actually use an lightsaber quite well Valkorian is not able to do that.

Vitiate can use a lightsaber (Voice defeated by HoT, 6th Line Jedi Masters) and can defend himself against a skilled lightsaber duelist with his bare hands (KotFE intro \ trailer).

I will say Sidious will win just because he can resist everything Valkorian trows at him. In an way like Vaylin did before he used the conditioning.

...and then Vitiate returns in a new body. Or with a host of new bodies. When Sidious body is destroyed, it's a big setback for him - he either needs a clone or a blank-state child to host his spirit (otherwise he'd have jumped from his decaying body to one of his followers in Empire's End rather than wait for Anakin Solo) while Vitiate can remain in his incorporeal form for long periods of time or use any host (even if the possession isn't complete, as seen on Ziost).

Edited November 23, 2017 by juliushorst

[that_Spartan_IV]

Sidious can be affected by a 'normal' disease (Darth Vader and the Ghost Prison).

Sidious was finally defeated by a non-Force sensitive man with a blaster destroying his body and a dying Force sensitive man imprisoning his spirit and taking him to the Force Netherworld (Empire's End).

Both those techniques are far less advanced than what Vitiate \ Valkorion has in store.

 

Vitiate can use a lightsaber (Voice defeated by HoT, 6th Line Jedi Masters) and can defend himself against a skilled lightsaber duelist with his bare hands (KotFE intro \ trailer).

 

...and then Vitiate returns in a new body. Or with a host of new bodies. When Sidious body is destroyed, it's a big setback for him - he either needs a clone or a blank-state child to host his spirit (otherwise he'd have jumped from his decaying body to one of his followers in Empire's End rather than wait for Anakin Solo) while Vitiate can remain in his incorporeal form for long periods of time or use any host (even if the possession isn't complete, as seen on Ziost).

 

 

I will admit you make good points, but when Sidious died it required all of the dead Jedi in the Nether World of the Force to hold him down (why they didn't just do this in the first place I don't know) I'd also like to add on that Vitiate's ability to block Arcann's lightsaber with his hand looked pretty much like tutiminis. It doesn't seem all that impressive, given that he's killed by a lightsaber/blaster a few seconds afterward.

 

Speaking of which.....

 

Vitiate/Valkorion was also be harmed by what Sidious can be harmed by. The protagonist of KOTFE, which can be a trooper, smuggler, agent, or bounty hunter, all of which use blasters to kill him simply needed to shoot/stab him in the back. We don't really see a "normal" virus used against him, so it's unwise to assume that he simply won't be affected by it either.

 

With Vitiate just coming back as a spirit, it isn't like what you describe. When the HoT destroyed his Voice, he nearly died, and he would have died had Revan just left it alone, but once again, due to all the bloodshed on Yavin IV, Vitiate was rejuvenated.

 

 

As for his death in KOTFE, his "disembodied" spirit wasn't disembodied at all. He attached himself to the Outlander in order to survive. Vitiate's hollowing out of his victims was always when they were either willing or didn't know. The main person in question is Valkorion, who was just a guy Vitiate hollowed out and then pretended to be.

 

Furthermore, lingering on as a spirit that can go from planet to planet isn't that impressive either in this particular case considering that Marka Ragnos and Freedon Nadd were able to do it.

Edited November 23, 2017 by that_Spartan_IV

[adormitul]

To add something blocking an lightsaber with bare hands was done by less skilled force users like Jaden Korr for example and Satele Shan and probably others.

To add something more when Sidious was killed the first time he actually if I remember correctly he possessed an fully grown man for an while.

So in the end what Valkorian is known for Sidious is also able.

[AndreyRymarczuk]

"Despite this outward appearance, however, Emperor Palpatine's dark side energies were everywhere, corrupting not only the inhabitants, but the planet itself."

 

Source: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Byss/Legends

 

There. Byss was a Dark Side nexus because of Sidious, meaning your argument in that case is invalid.

 

And it doesn't matter what thread it is, you're not supposed to make multiples at the same time.

 

Edit: I can understand if someone thinks that Valkorion is more powerful. I get it. But I just don't think he stands up to Sidious.

 

Here's a good Dark Empire source: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/shootingnova/blog/de-palpatine-darth-sidious-respect-thread/101798/

 

How is it invalid? That doesn't discredit the fact that he WAS amped by the Byss DS Nexus.

 

I'll address the populations of Ziost, Byss, and Nathema here.

 

While we don't know the exact population of Ziost, we do know for a fact that the planet was one of the Sith Empire's largest population centers.

 

Situated in the heart of Imperial Space, Ziost has long played a vital role in the intricate history of the Sith. For thousands of years, in fact, the craggy, arid world served as the ancient Sith Empire's capital until infighting splintered its leadership. Today, Ziost remains an important commercial, political and population center of the Empire--this in spite of its shift from a warm climate with dense forests to a bitterly cold tundra. Whether this environmental turnabout is due to geological reasons or eons of dark side influence remains a subject of scholarly consideration.

 

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Rise of the Emperor: Codex Entry titled "Ziost.")

 

So, Ziost's population was immense. And on top of the normal population, there was a good sized number of other Jedi and Sith on the planet at the time as well.

 

Just as well, let's assume that Byss did have a larger population than Medriaas and Ziost. The difference is minimal, honestly, in the grand scheme of things. Sidious drained Byss SLOWLY, over long period of time. While also controlling the population of the planet with telepathy, you might think that makes it more impressive, but it really doesn't. He was draining them, which is true, but he would have been EXPENDING as much power to control the population as he was absorbing from them, on top of that, Byss was an incredibly potent Dark Side nexus. Meaning that Sidious had the aid of an external amp as well while performing this feat.

 

Vitiate, on the other hand, drained the population nigh instantly, and disrupted the flow of the Force to the plane, just as he did on Medriaas. Every scrap of Force energy, on the planet, in the people on the planet, and surrounding the planet, all manipulated into one target, Vitiate.

___________________

 

Side note, another point I came up with. Vitiate negatively affected the workings of the Living Force and the Cosmic Force on both Medriaas and Ziost.

 

The Force consists of two related, but distinct, elements: the Living Force and the Cosmic Force. The Living Force is generated by the energy of living beings throughout the galaxy. This is the Force at its most immediate and instinctive level. It is this aspect of the Force that allows for many of the impressive abilities that have fueled the aura of legend around the Jedi and Sith, and that still excites the galaxy's imagination. The ability to trick the minds of other beings, to sense their presence, and to manipulate physical objects all come from the Living Force.

 

From (Star Wars: Force and Destiny - Core Rulebook)

 

^^^ This is relevant because Vitiate wiping out all life on the planets would have left a negative effect on the planet's connection to the Living Force.

 

Now for the good part.

 

He felt the first hints of what was waiting for him when the shuttle dropped out of hyperspace. Through the windows of the cockpit he saw a gray-and-brown planet looming large before them. Gazing at it, he felt something strange and unsettling. Something unnatural.

 

It took him several moments to realize what was wrong, and even when he did, he didn’t fully grasp the implications. He wasn’t feeling the Force.

 

The sensation was completely alien. The Force was omnipresent. It radiated stronger in certain places and at certain times, and the balance of the dark side and the light constantly shifted. But it was always there in some way, shape, or form.

 

Now, however, he felt nothing. He had become so accustomed to the presence of the Force in the background that its complete absence was almost overwhelming, leaving him unable to speak.

 

“Prepare yourself,” Nyriss said. “We’re going down to the surface.”

 

The absence grew steadily more pronounced as the shuttle approached and then landed on Nathema.

 

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan)

 

The Force, not only on the planet, but AROUND the planet, was missing. Meaning Vitiate permanently damaged the Cosmic Force, leaving a hole. All of this power would have needed to go somewhere. So not only did Vitiate retain the power of the DS Nexus on Medriaas, and the power of the Sith and other denizens of the world, but also retained the power of the Force that surrounded the planet as well. This carries over to Ziost as well, as the results on Ziost are the same as the results of the Medriaas ritual. So, Vitiate has all that combined power at his disposal as Valkorion.

[that_Spartan_IV]

You make some good points, I will admit, but I think I'll trust Aurbere, Selenial, cs-zoltan, and the other's verdicts.

 

In the end, I still think Sidious is more powerful.

Edited November 27, 2017 by that_Spartan_IV