Please give us better tools to combat general chat toxicity

[IoNonSoEVero]

The point of the thread, which seems to be lost on some people, is to attack the worst of the worst. Despite all the "tools" that they say exist to prevent it, severe violations of the code of conduct still go on regularly. No one is asking that General chat be turned into a church. What they are asking for is it be treated like the public space it is (no different than a mall or coffee shop - while you might be vulgar in those places it is done is hushed whispers not shouted from the rooftops which is essentially what posting in General chat is - everyone can see it). Swearing and other "releases" are caught by the profanity filter but there are those that actively work around those filters. Those are the people this thread wants to get rid of. If Bioware had an active presence in General chat, there would be a lot less of a problem (people are better behaved when they are being watched). The issue is that they don't have a significant visible presence, for whatever reason, and there is a portion of the community that takes advantage of that.

 

I would add to this that General Chat is currently unusable by regular players, and thus a method of communication that could connect players to each other and the game is cut off. IMHO I would hope that another point of this thread would be to restore Gen Chat to use as a viable method of players to interact, ask questions and get help on both the Fleet and individual planets.

[Seireeni]

I really need to go see Satele Shan (or apparently Star Forge?) myself. Having played pretty much only on Darth Malgus since the merges, I have seen nothing like this.

 

Giving better tools might that be so easy. Harassment button that reports a person and silences them after enough people have reported them might not work if people simply don't care enough. Harassment button that only requires one person to report may cause the reports being overflowed from incidents when someone disagreed with another person in an impolite way. And going straight to the banhammer when many of these people are probably kids and teenagers just seems a little...extreme.

[DWho]

I really need to go see Satele Shan (or apparently Star Forge?) myself. Having played pretty much only on Darth Malgus since the merges, I have seen nothing like this.

 

Giving better tools might that be so easy. Harassment button that reports a person and silences them after enough people have reported them might not work if people simply don't care enough. Harassment button that only requires one person to report may cause the reports being overflowed from incidents when someone disagreed with another person in an impolite way. And going straight to the banhammer when many of these people are probably kids and teenagers just seems a little...extreme.

 

Imperial Fleet and Dromund Kaas are by far the worst although you can see it some on Pub Fleet. Apparently some people believe that playing an Imperial/Sith means they have to be rude and obnoxious.

[DWho]

IMHO I would hope that another point of this thread would be to restore Gen Chat to use as a viable method of players to interact, ask questions and get help on both the Fleet and individual planets.

 

I agree, but taking out the worst of the worst will move it a long ways in that direction. Once they are gone, fewer people will turn off chat to avoid the toxic behavior and hopefully then the social aspect of the game will re-emerge

[IoNonSoEVero]

I agree, but taking out the worst of the worst will move it a long ways in that direction. Once they are gone, fewer people will turn off chat to avoid the toxic behavior and hopefully then the social aspect of the game will re-emerge

 

Yes, I agree. The worst of the worst are *why* the Gen Chat is cut off right now, and addressing their conduct will make a difference.

 

I think it's important to say that again because some people (not you) seem to object to doing anything and think this thread is about being the morality police, or being too sensitive, or whatever - when it's really about addressing something that is a detriment to the game environment for numerous reasons.

Edited November 22, 2017 by IoNonSoEVero

[Seireeni]

I think it's important to say that again because some people (not you) seem to think this thread is about being the morality police, or being too sensitive, or whatever - when it's really about addressing something that is a detriment to the game environment for numerous reasons.

 

Well, I for one have not seen anything like this on Darth Malgus -- if someone else has the same issue and missed the fact that this is about Satele Shan and Star Forge, they might come to the conclusion that you are referring to people disagreeing in an impolite way or too much swearing or something.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Seireeni

[PiiTarr]

It's not that simple, disturbance of peace in real life is a real thing, while the EULA are a set of rules for common decency, it's not actually law enforcing in most cases.

 

In this game and on these forums, the Rules of Conduct are the equivalent of law. BW can act however it pleases in order to enforce them, including issuing permanent bans (which could be viewed as the virtual equivalent to a life sentence without the possibility for parole). So while the virtual environment is certainly not the same thing as real life, in this virtual environment, the Rules of Conduct act as law does in real life.

[Sinhammer]

The fact is a lot of toxicity could be hindered if ONCE--just ONCE--a GM would be in chat and do their job. I've played MMOs for well over a decade now and I've seen this happen maybe once, and there really is absolutely no excuse for it considering the amount of money these games bring in. You can't tell me that SOMEone at at BW can't sit there in a chat on the whole TWO US servers and say "knock it off" or ban some people when they act the goof. The fact is that toxicity is ALLOWED--deliberately--across multiple games from different companies because of one thing: the bottom dollar. I am convinced of that. If people are paying customers they don't care what they go into chat and say. It is the only thing at this point that makes sense as to why so many companies turn a blind eye to so much.

[aerockyul]

Gaming general chat channels have always been a place to unwind after a bad PvP match, after a bad FP, after a bad Ops, or even after a bad day. It's the one place where the social contract of how to behave is a little loose. This is not guild chat, group chat or ops chat. This is General chat. And with General chat a little trolling always exists.

You are not talking to people/individuals and it's rarely personal, you are just writing stuff that is released ''out there'. It even has a therapeutic effect. Some people said trolls won't speak some of the nonsense they do in other mediums or in the real world, well, no **** Sherlock. It's supposed to be that way. Otherwise it would not be entertaining to read or write.

 

For people that are taking themselves and this medium too seriously, there is always the ignore option and the option to close the chat. That's really all there is to it. In the very rare case where the trolling is super extreme or it is not even trolling but pure poison, don't worry, such people are getting reported, even without you making a big fuss of it here in this thread. Most of the time though, especially from some of the people in this thread it is simply a case of taking things and yourself too seriously.

 

Also it is fun to read, as i have said before, while waiting for a queue.

 

Some people want to make the General chat a *********** library or a funereal. No... just no. It seems to me that those people are from near dead servers from before the merge because i don't see much difference from before, when it comes to the populated servers- TRE and Harb. Even if not, again, stop taking things so seriously, lighten up and have fun.

 

PS: What i said above does not count for clear cases of harassment and outright offensive poison which is very easy to distinguish from trolling, even if the person senses he went to far and is trying to pull out by saying he was trolling.

All that needs to be done is the devs to pay attention to the reports, so don't lose their time with garbage or harmless reports, but report only when the case is really really bad.

 

PS: And i am gonna say again that this game is comparatively mature and well mannered, hell it's one of the best(if not the best) i have played in this regard, so i don't get why such threads are made.

 

You've made the distinction yourself but I don't think you're understanding where the thread was coming from. OP and others are not concerned with the troll who does the stupid Xbox 360 joke or the WoW was the first MMO joke. It's the offensive poison they're talking about, and probably the stuff that bubbles out of the PvP channel (which you see noobs not distinguishing that the PvP and General channels are not different and you can eliminate a lot of bile by simply switching off PvP's channel). There needs to be better tools to combat most of it. I'm not in favor of censorship or bans outright, but I am in favor of improving the EXISTING tools

 

Account-wide ignore

Expanded ignore list limit (or unlimited)

Dispose of the ridiculous physical distance barrier to reporting more than spam

 

I actually believe you have the right to enjoy chat as you say. You and others can unwind and do whatever in it, under the ToS, of course. Just improve the tools available and you will see far fewer QQ threads and complaints in game. Right now we feel pretty powerless and it's frustrating to see there are easy solutions and other games use them as well.

[LordFell]

One could use the same excuse in real life - just walk away, right?

If you want to take a "real world" comparison, you should think of SWTOR as a restaurant. They have a service, you go into their establishment to enjoy the service. When you're out at a restaurant, you and your group do what you want to do, order what you want, and do your best to enjoy yourselves.

 

But... when the group two tables over is loudly discussing something that just isn't appropriate... maybe throwing their bread crusts at the next table, unscrewing the salt... I dunno... literally trying to take a poop on the table... the people who should be doing something about this band of miscreants is the management. You, as a customer shouldn't feel it's your business to get involved.

 

...now, SWTOR has no in-game Game Master presence. So, we need to be able to alert them to the shenanigans going on. We also need adequate tools to do this. All I really want to do is to be able to report harassment or vulgarity in chat, without having to physically run down the player responsible. Then, I want a real, live, person to have a look at the offender, and start them on an escalated scale of Official Reprimand, starting at Warning, progressing through Squelched Chat, Temporary Ban, and terminating at Account Deletion (after so many offences, of course).

 

 

Gaming general chat channels have always been a place to unwind after a bad PvP match, after a bad FP, after a bad Ops, or even after a bad day. It's the one place where the social contract of how to behave is a little loose.

You're entirely mistaken about this. There is nothing in the EULA that indicates that the rules on general chat are somehow different than they are for other channels. In fact, you have it exactly backwards; the rules specifically apply to general chat, and if you want to operate in a place where the rules are less restrictive, you need to find a private channel, or a guild channel that has a policy that permits a "more casual" type of conversation.

 

For people that are taking themselves and this medium too seriously, there is always the ignore option and the option to close the chat. That's really all there is to it. In the very rare case where the trolling is super extreme or it is not even trolling but pure poison, don't worry, such people are getting reported, even without you making a big fuss of it here in this thread. Most of the time though, especially from some of the people in this thread it is simply a case of taking things and yourself too seriously.

Once again, you have it exactly backwards. General Chat should be for everyone to use... in the manner laid out by SWTOR's end user license agreement. People who cannot abide by those terms are invited to stop using General Chat. Basically, you're trying to say that Chat belongs to the Trolls... and that's not true or acceptable.

 

And... again. Clearly these people AREN'T being reported... because SWTOR's current system has made reporting people for this kind of behaviour far too much hassle to do. Also, as evidenced, it's more than likely the same trolls... either on different characters or different accounts, day in... day out... Enough is enough. Give us the tools to report these people, then do something about it.

 

Also it is fun to read, as i have said before, while waiting for a queue.

Says who?

...again, you got it exactly backwards.

[IoNonSoEVero]

If you want to take a "real world" comparison, you should think of SWTOR as a restaurant. They have a service, you go into their establishment to enjoy the service. When you're out at a restaurant, you and your group do what you want to do, order what you want, and do your best to enjoy yourselves.

 

But... when the group two tables over is loudly discussing something that just isn't appropriate... maybe throwing their bread crusts at the next table, unscrewing the salt... I dunno... literally trying to take a poop on the table... the people who should be doing something about this band of miscreants is the management. You, as a customer shouldn't feel it's your business to get involved.

 

...now, SWTOR has no in-game Game Master presence. So, we need to be able to alert them to the shenanigans going on. We also need adequate tools to do this. All I really want to do is to be able to report harassment or vulgarity in chat, without having to physically run down the player responsible. Then, I want a real, live, person to have a look at the offender, and start them on an escalated scale of Official Reprimand, starting at Warning, progressing through Squelched Chat, Temporary Ban, and terminating at Account Deletion (after so many offences, of course).

 

.

 

I do completely agree with you. I was just trying to make the point that just walking away doesn't solve anything IRL with a disturbance like that any more than 'just ignoring' does in the game. The management *should* be intervening in both instances.

 

If we're on this forum, we pay real-world money to be in the game, the same way you'd pay to eat at that hypothetical restaurant. Just as one would be annoyed if their restaurant meal was ruined by people behaving completely out of line, it's reasonable IMHO to be annoyed if the game communication is ruined or disturbed by people behaving completely out of line.

[Suzsi]

I'm not defending trolls, I find real life and in game comparisons to be unsuitable in most cases, and they are.

I also said, unless it's serious, you can't go to the cops for someone being rude on /3. Death threats are pretty serious no?

 

Nobody likes rude behaviour and being racist homophobic and whatever else falls under that. It needs to be dealt with as best as they can, I don't have a solution however.

 

No they arent different at all and the idea that they are is exactly what needs to change.

 

Stalking is still stalking, irl or online its scary as and can do real harm to the mental health of the victim.

 

Mass public call outs, bullying, naming and shaming can also do the same thing on social media and irl. In fact often times on social media its worse because it reaches a lot more people in a shorter time frame leaving the victim helpless to stop it. And it never goes away. Same for a public chat of 100+ people where as irl your limited by those who can hear your voice in the general area. Usually in chat a lot of others will leap on ot and shoot down the victim in flames, should they sit all day clicking ignore? While being mentally harassed and belittled and degraded and HURT.

 

Even one on one bullying IRL vrs Online is still hurtful mentally to the victim.

 

There is ZERO difference. Tools in game or no it is behaviour that is deterimental, harmful and needs to stop.

 

You dont know the person on the other end. You dont know their mental state at the time of typing harmful comments (irl you actually have more chance because you can see their reactions). People use anonymity far too often to be complete jerks with zero reguards for the very real impact it has on the reciever because they cant see.

 

It has to stop.

 

The argument that if someone is violatile they shouldnt be playing is also BS.

 

Every individual has the right to do what they enjoy doing without being harassed. Should they also not walk down a street just incase?

Edited November 24, 2017 by Suzsi

[Kaedusz]

snip

 

The right comparison is between this game and other games, not with a restaurant. Since trolling and messing around is bigger or the same in other games(all the games), then this is a common thing with games. Since it has existed forever,exists and it will exist, it's fair to say it's the norm. That's just the way games and gamers are. It's the nature of the thing. You can't break its nature. You can only punish the worst offenders and hope for the best. You make it sound like the vaunted Terms of Use should tell people when to blink.

 

Not everything is purely clinical and strict and rules are constantly bent and broken, sometimes more, sometimes less. Most of the time it is harmless. And the General chat is different because the environment is not personal, you have nothing to do with the people you are talking to, other than being in the same room. People that are personally harrased should report, but if someone sees a random message not directed at someone else, that is offensive in some kind of way, for example sexually, racially or politically then sorry but that is a case of being too sensitive for this type of environment.

 

The Devs can't start punishing every single person with clinical precision for random comments in chat, or the game would become lifeless in a negative amount of time.

 

What you are saying essentially here is the equivalent of creating a perfect society in which nobody is greedy, corrupt, and all live like monks. Not gonna happen.

This is not a case of following the Terms by the players or not, or the devs enforcing the ''rules''. The real issue here is how things really work in practice and making your peace with reality. All people can do is develop thicker skin. The General chat is like the noise cars make in a big city, you just learn to deal with it.

 

Sure, a more effective report and punishment system may be needed for the worst offenders, but that is immaterial in our current context.

Edited November 24, 2017 by Kaedusz

[DWho]

The right comparison is between this game and other games, not with a restaurant. Since trolling and messing around is bigger or the same in other games(all the games), then this is a common thing with games. Since it has existed forever,exists and it will exist it's fair to say it's the norm. That's just the way games and gamers are. It's the nature of the thing. You can't break it's nature. You can only punish the worst offenders and hope of the best. You make it sound like the vaunted Terms of Use should tell people when to blink.

 

Not everything is purely clinical and strict and rules are constantly bent and broken, sometimes more, sometimes less. Most of the time it is harmless. And the General chat is different because the environment is not personal, you have nothing to do with the people you are talking to, other than being in the same room. People that are personally harrased should report, but if someone sees a random message not directed at someone else, that is offensive in some kind of way, for example sexually, racially or politically then sorry but that is a case of being too sensitive for this type of environment.

 

The Devs can't start punishing every single person with clinical precision for random comments in chat, or the game would become lifeless in a negative amount of time.

 

What you are saying essentially here is the equivalent of creating a perfect society in which nobody is greedy, corrupt, and all live like monks. Not gonna happen.

This is not a case of following the Terms by the players or not, or the devs enforcing the ''rules''. The real issue here is how things really work in practice and making your peace with reality. All people can do is develop thicker skin. The General chat is like the noise cars make in a big city, you just learn to deal with it.

 

Sure, a more effective report and punishment system may be needed for the worst offenders, but that is immaterial in our current context.

 

First of all, what you see here is not the "norm" in MMOs. I play 3 other MMOs (D&D Online, EVE Online, and Pathfinder online) all of which have in game populations at least as large as this one and you do not see anything close to what you see in fleet chat here.

 

Second, whether something is directed at you or not it does create a hostile environment. I was in Nar Shadaa chat (not even fleet chat) the other day and there was a discussion going on about how to murder someone in real life and get away with it. I don't care who that was directed at or whether it is joking, it is inappropriate (and was reported).

 

I am also sick of people saying get a thicker skin (or other similar comments). What you are saying is that the players who want to use chat as it was intended have no rights to a usable environment and only the trolls matter. This thread is about getting rid of the trolls (and treating them harshly if necessary) not censorship or "that's the way it is" that keep getting posted.

 

There was a quote that has often been attributed to Edmund Burke (although there is some question as to whether he was the originator). A variation of it often presented is:

 

"Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing"

 

This is where we are here the bad men (and those who defend them) are the problem. What is sad is that no one who defends the trolls actually defends their behavior. It is a lot of well that's the way it is, or censorship, or it's the internet. If you think that people should be able to spout offensive sexist, racist, sexually explicit comments in chat then just come out and say it instead of pretending it is some kind of free speech right. I doubt there are many that defend the trolls that would be willing to go that far and put their name to this horrid behavior.

[Kaedusz]

^

Those other games you mentioned have other types of toxicity, compared to which the trolls in general chat are nothing.

Can't speak for Pathfinder though.

Edited November 24, 2017 by Kaedusz

[DWho]

^

Those other games you mentioned have other types of toxicity, compared to which the trolls in general chat are nothing.

Can't speak for Pathfinder though.

 

really, like what?

[Kaedusz]

really, like what?

 

For example, a friend plays EVE and i have heard horror stories about elitism, bullying and scams.

Edited November 24, 2017 by Kaedusz

[IoNonSoEVero]

It doesn't matter if it's the status quo in other games. it's not okay. It drives people away from a chat channel that is supposed to be used for general communication in the game. And no, someone's not 'thin skinned' if they don't want to listen to a constant stream of people talking about committing crimes and posting racist, sexist and homophobic comments.

[DWho]

For example, a friend plays EVE and i have heard horror stories about elitism, bullying and scams.

 

and CCP takes those very seriously. There have been a number of permanent bans handed out for scams and bullying. The elitism is a result of the initial game being very PVP centric. It is not nearly as bad now as it was years ago.

[Kaedusz]

It doesn't matter if it's the status quo in other games. it's not okay. It drives people away from a chat channel that is supposed to be used for general communication in the game. And no, someone's not 'thin skinned' if they don't want to listen to a constant stream of people talking about committing crimes and posting racist, sexist and homophobic comments.

 

''Constant stream'' is overexagerated and too strong a word for the situation we have. On Darth Malgus at least the banter can be at full force during a few particular times of the day. Some days, nobody trolls at all. Who knows, maybe you can be right, if you are talking about Satale Shan, but i doubt it.

 

You people make it sound like the Fleet chat is a gathering spot for all the scum on planet Earth lol. And it's bad for morale honestly, for potentially new players browsing the forums. And no, not nearly as bad as new players being scared from the chat itself, cus as i said above, you guys as overexagerating.

Edited November 24, 2017 by Kaedusz

[IoNonSoEVero]

''Constant stream'' is overexagerated and too strong a word for the situation we have. On Darth Malgus at least the banter can be at full force during a few particular times of the day. Some days, nobody trolls at all. Who knows, maybe you can be right, if you are talking about Satale Shan, but i doubt it.

 

You people make it sound like the Fleet chat is a gathering spot for all the scum on planet Earth lol. And it's bad for morale honestly, for potentially new players browsing the forums. And no, not nearly as bad as new players being scared from the chat itself, cus as i said above, you guys as overexagerating.

 

If you're not on Satele Shan or Star Forge, than you have no idea what we're talking about. NO idea. It IS to the point there where it's a constant stream of garbage, and anyone who tries to ask an actual question or LFG is immediately drowned out, either by people who are saying these vile things or blanking the chat. Make a character on SS and SF. Sit in the Fleet for a few hours. And then get back to us.

 

It's much worse for morale for people who have new Level 10s and Level 15s to hear the barrage of nastiness that now occurs on the starter planets and Fleet, which are their first exposures to other players. It's much worse for them to never have an opportunity to ask questions because they're immediately pounced on. It's much worse for them when players who would have helped or answered questions before are now unavailable because they have turned off their chat.

 

Keep in mind these threads didn't appear before the merger. Even in relation to Harbinger, which was considered a rough server. It's worse now because the dregs from each server are converging and they're magnified. Nobody here is exaggerating anything.

Edited November 24, 2017 by IoNonSoEVero

[Kaedusz]

snip.

 

I did make a char on Satale Shan just so i can hear the fleet chat. The ongoing discussion about the pros and cons of circumcision. Found it amusing.

 

I will visit again soon for a longer period of time to see what's up.

[DWho]

I did make a char on Satale Shan just so i can hear the fleet chat. The ongoing discussion about the pros and cons of circumcision. Found it amusing.

 

I will visit again soon for a longer period of time to see what's up.

 

Right now on Star Forge there is a nasty anti-gay conversation going on and someone who asked for help was just told to shut up and that chat is the wrong place to ask for help. This is what the problem is.

 

Edit: It moved on to a discussion of the benefits of slavery and at the same time there was a racist discussion about asians of a sexual nature. This is OK how?

 

Edit 2: Just to be clear. All of this went on in a 5 minute span.

Edited November 24, 2017 by DWho

[LordFell]

''Constant stream'' is overexagerated and too strong a word for the situation we have. On Darth Malgus at least the banter can be at full force during a few particular times of the day. Some days, nobody trolls at all. Who knows, maybe you can be right, if you are talking about Satale Shan, but i doubt it.

 

You people make it sound like the Fleet chat is a gathering spot for all the scum on planet Earth lol. And it's bad for morale honestly, for potentially new players browsing the forums. And no, not nearly as bad as new players being scared from the chat itself, cus as i said above, you guys as overexagerating.

I tire of your apologetics.

 

• General Chat is not the exception to the terms and service... it's the channel to which it is most applicable.
  
• Claiming that it is the nature of gamers to be awful doesn't cut it with me. I'm a gamer; and I have a higher standard for my peers.
  
• No amount of you thinking toxic chat is ... somehow not unacceptable doesn't magically make it acceptable.
  

[Kaedusz]

Right now on Star Forge there is a nasty anti-gay conversation going on and someone who asked for help was just told to shut up and that chat is the wrong place to ask for help. This is what the problem is.

 

Edit: It moved on to a discussion of the benefits of slavery and at the same time there was a racist discussion about asians of a sexual nature. This is OK how?

 

Edit 2: Just to be clear. All of this went on in a 5 minute span.

 

This made me crack up in RL. When i hear someone saying ''benefits of slavery'' i view it as if a comic is doing a comedic sketch in front of an audience. Comedy often happens when you push limits.

It's not like someone that is running for office is talking about it with a straight face or it's a random guy in a serious TV program.

 

This just confirms my suspicions, you guys are entirely too serious about life.

Edited November 24, 2017 by Kaedusz