So the consequence of making a single player game

[Malkosha]

First off, this IS NOT a single player game. When I log on I always see people running around and I can engage with them at will. Just because this game isn't all about gearing up for the next big raid doesn't make it a single player game. Sometimes I wonder about some of you.

 

Also, all of the arguments I hear about grouping up for FP or OP's seem to come from the reluctance ... if not outright fear ... to put yourself out there in a group that will harshly judge your reactions. I call BS!! Yes, there are some "professional" guilds and teams out there who live and die for the perfect raid encounter and judge every move you make, but they aren't that numerous. For the most part the players you group with are just like everyone else. They want to do well but if they don't it's not the end of the world. In other words, they are just like you.

 

Get in group finder, and let it rip. You may surprise yourself by how great you do and may be equally surprised that others have the same faults that you do. It's just a game. Play it the way you want. Run quests by yourself and wave at others as you run by or live in eternal group mode. This game gives you the freedom to do both. Take advantage of it and step out of your comfort zone. You may find yourself in a part of the game you didn't even know existed and have fun doing it.

[JediAkemi]

I always ask if a group-finder team-mate is doing a particular FP for the first time, and say that if they are, then I am prepared to explain as we go. I try to make things as comfortable as I can. I mean we were all new once. If we encourage people and provide a welcoming group experience, they're more likely to keep coming back.

 

Admittedly, I do get bent out of shape in Tacticals if I'm on one of my healers and people insist on panic clicking the kolto stations instead of trusting me - especially if I have said beforehand "Please don't click the kolto stations. Keeping us all alive is my responsibility. If for whatever reason my normal healing isn't enough, I will click the kolto. You guys focus on the fight " or something similar.

 

Oh well. C'est la vie.

[grania]

First off, this IS NOT a single player game. When I log on I always see people running around and I can engage with them at will. Just because this game isn't all about gearing up for the next big raid doesn't make it a single player game. Sometimes I wonder about some of you.

 

Also, all of the arguments I hear about grouping up for FP or OP's seem to come from the reluctance ... if not outright fear ... to put yourself out there in a group that will harshly judge your reactions. I call BS!! Yes, there are some "professional" guilds and teams out there who live and die for the perfect raid encounter and judge every move you make, but they aren't that numerous. For the most part the players you group with are just like everyone else. They want to do well but if they don't it's not the end of the world. In other words, they are just like you.

 

Get in group finder, and let it rip. You may surprise yourself by how great you do and may be equally surprised that others have the same faults that you do. It's just a game. Play it the way you want. Run quests by yourself and wave at others as you run by or live in eternal group mode. This game gives you the freedom to do both. Take advantage of it and step out of your comfort zone. You may find yourself in a part of the game you didn't even know existed and have fun doing it.

 

The tone of your post is very positive and encouraging, I appreciate that, but you assume we've never stepped out of our "comfort zones" before. And just because the sky didn't or doesn't always fall, doesn't always mean our enjoyment of it shifts.

 

I don't like mushrooms, never have, though I do give them a try every few years and I still don't like them. I don't know how many people here on the forums or in this game are brand new to mmos but certainly some us us know what we enjoy and what we don't.

[BorisKarloffe]

While this may not technically be a "single player game", Bioware turned it into one over the last two years by deliberately focusing only on single player content and basically allowing any Multiplayer aspects of the game to rot. One of the side effects of this was that a lot of the veteran players who knew how to do group content left the game and were replaced by "solo mode heroes" or "I have 248 gear heroes" who don't know how to properly play their roles or pay attention to mechanics.

 

While Pugging always had the potential to turn out badly before if you got a bad draw, now I'm encountering a lot more skank tanks and fake heals in the queues. They have dps gear, but queue up instead for the heals or tank role to get faster pops.

 

It's not something that matters on Veteran Mode for the most part, but if you're doing Master Mode FP's, it's not going to cut it.

 

And if you do say something to them about being in the wrong gear/spec for the role they're in, they ragequit or expect the rest of the group to carry them because they "do it all the time".

[grania]

skank tanks and fake heals

 

And if you don't believe how unpleasant pugging really can be just look at this comment. I'd rather maintain some semblance of dignity by keeping to myself than ever being referred to as a "skank tank".

[Bobbydacool]

This. Coming on the forum complaining about how bad people are at group content doesn't exactly motivate us to try group content, and you wonder why you had long queues and such.

 

I'm also one of those "everything solo" (or in my case duo with my girlfriend) players, and was pondering dipping my toe in to try and get Darth Hexid, but if this is the kind of attitude I'm going to face I think maybe I'll do without.

 

There’s plenty of normal, patient people in game to group with. Sure there are definately some bad apples in this game, but I’ve had far more positive group experiences than negative ones. I’ve personally always enjoyed grouping with and helping newer players in MMOs, it sure beats grouping with grumpy people who flame you if you die once.

 

If anybody on the Star Forge server would wanna group for some flashpoints or pvp, you can send me a friend request or mail at Toryn Zal. Unfortunately I can’t do high level pvp yet on this server since my main characters are trapped on Satele Shan.

Edited November 11, 2017 by Bobbydacool

[JennyFlynn]

I have not had a pleasant experience doing FPs. One of the first ones I did when I was new to the game, I told the group "Hey guys, I've not done this one yet so any tips or advice would be appreciated :)" upon which the tank ranted "This game is a couple of years old how can you not know this FP ffs I hate scrubs" and then he left, followed by the healer... safe to say since then I've just done Solo FPs and skipped any that require a group. The sad thing is, part of me would love to do all FPs and experience that part of the story/game--I might even be inclined to try an Ops but with the attitudes I've received thus far when attempting group content I feel extremely discouraged.

 

Instead I forced myself to do three PvP matches this morning which wasn't too horrible. Had no clue what I was doing objective wise but I figure if I stick to just hitting other players that's at least something.

[DanNV]

Totally agree! I'm one of those "people who did everything solo from level 1 to 70", but I would LOVE to group up to do FPs, Ops, etc. However, I have always been reluctant to, due to the amount of people out there who do not have the patience for someone like me. They want to faceroll and spacebar through everything, and gods forbid you don't have the mechanics of every single group quest out there committed to memory.

 

The biggest thing I have seen that helps with patience is to tell the group you're new to doing flash points and don't know it. Ask them if they'll explain a fight before it starts. That shows the more experienced people that you're interested and lets them know you want to learn. I can't speak for everyone, but I know I am more than happy to explain fights to newer players and am way more patient if they let me know they are new. Of course, if I'm explaining the fights, I do want to see some indication they were listening. (Getting out of the AOE I warned them about, not standing in red circles, killing those adds that need to be killed as soon as the spawn, etc.) Also, explaining helps me, too. We wipe less which means my repair bills on my gear are way less. (I'm not one of those billionaire characters. $20k in repair bills adds up fast.)

[BorisKarloffe]

And if you don't believe how unpleasant pugging really can be just look at this comment. I'd rather maintain some semblance of dignity by keeping to myself than ever being referred to as a "skank tank".

 

As long as you don't try to game the system and make others suffer for it, no one would ever accuse you of being one. Or do you not have any idea what I'm referring to?

[Keta]

This. Coming on the forum complaining about how bad people are at group content doesn't exactly motivate us to try group content, and you wonder why you had long queues and such.

 

I'm also one of those "everything solo" (or in my case duo with my girlfriend) players, and was pondering dipping my toe in to try and get Darth Hexid, but if this is the kind of attitude I'm going to face I think maybe I'll do without.

 

Exactly and what was said right above you as well.

 

There are a lot of 'solo' players who would love to group up but don't because of the irrational hatred of players who don't have the flashpoint/ops mechanics memorized because they've never (or rarely) done it before. Using the group finder traditionally has yielded a group that has too many folks hellbent on speeding through content rather than rolling through it and helping all their members out.

 

Oh and if you're doing it just for Darth Hexid, do the 3 pvp warzones. faster anyway .. even if you abhor pvp.

[Eshvara]

I have not had a pleasant experience doing FPs. One of the first ones I did when I was new to the game, I told the group "Hey guys, I've not done this one yet so any tips or advice would be appreciated :)" upon which the tank ranted "This game is a couple of years old how can you not know this FP ffs I hate scrubs" and then he left, followed by the healer... safe to say since then I've just done Solo FPs and skipped any that require a group. The sad thing is, part of me would love to do all FPs and experience that part of the story/game--I might even be inclined to try an Ops but with the attitudes I've received thus far when attempting group content I feel extremely discouraged.

 

Instead I forced myself to do three PvP matches this morning which wasn't too horrible. Had no clue what I was doing objective wise but I figure if I stick to just hitting other players that's at least something.

 

Yikes, that sounds sad!

 

My only unpleasant experience was during DvL during the blood hunt. It was my first MM as I'm not a PvE fan, he looked at my PvP gear and started ************ at me and my friend and then left. We still did it in our PvP gear and cleared the instance anyway. It is one of the more difficult ones on MM but not undoable.

 

It kind of puts you into doubt when people behave like that, but I hope it doesn't let too much people stop them from trying to group! In WoW it made me end up befriending some of the nicest people and a few in swtor as well. But still in swtor, not much of a PvE fan.

[JennyFlynn]

Yikes, that sounds sad!

 

My only unpleasant experience was during DvL during the blood hunt. It was my first MM as I'm not a PvE fan, he looked at my PvP gear and started ************ at me and my friend and then left. We still did it in our PvP gear and cleared the instance anyway. It is one of the more difficult ones on MM but not undoable.

 

It kind of puts you into doubt when people behave like that, but I hope it doesn't let too much people stop them from trying to group! In WoW it made me end up befriending some of the nicest people and a few in swtor as well. But still in swtor, not much of a PvE fan.

 

I tried once more and witnessed the group discuss kicking me because I wasn't spacebarring. I don't know, perhaps I just got unlucky lol. I may try again in the future but I hardly feel encouraged.

 

I've never had these issues in WoW but I mostly tank there both through leveling and end-game and always at the start ask if anyone's new to the dungeon and if anyone needs quests done. That usually gets any new players to open up and puts the group in a place of being helpful and nice (probably because most folks don't wanna piss off the tank and spend another 40 mins in queue ). I've made a lot of friends that way and plenty of times been asked if I'm doing more dungeons and am willing to stay grouped with the dps'ers because they enjoyed the run.

[aerockyul]

So you know how there are multiple instances of fleet open now and sometimes double instances on flagships? That could be more than 600 people who can see fleet chat. Notice how you see the same trolls over and over and it's like ten people. Out of over 600.

It's the same in group content. A tiny fraction of real ******** and a very very large majority are nice and helpful or at the least tolerant. The only thing that's not like that is ranked pvp but I do what I can to avoid that at all costs no matter how much the tiny minority that's not toxic insists it's not toxic. Reg pvp might see one jerk every few matches but if they're raging in regs just take consolation that their high blood pressure is coming from something so meaninglessness.

[grania]

As long as you don't try to game the system and make others suffer for it, no one would ever accuse you of being one. Or do you not have any idea what I'm referring to?

 

I assumed you meant a lousy or inexperienced tank. What does it mean exactly? I'm familiar with scrank or scranker but those are not really pejorative terms.

[Keta]

I tried once more and witnessed the group discuss kicking me because I wasn't spacebarring. I don't know, perhaps I just got unlucky lol.

 

No you weren't unlucky, that pretty much the norm or at least it has been. There are a lot of good players that don't drive away those who are just trying to learn the flashpoint or ops, but they're in the minority when grouping through the LFG in my experience.

 

there are more than a couple of large guilds on each server that have "newbie" ops runs every week, specifically designed for those who don't no anything about the mechanics of that ops or ops in general. Ask around if you want to give it a try .. then you'll rarely need the PUG after that.

 

On a side note, I thought WAR's public quest system was great, grouping and accomplishing stuff with being forced to actually group. Not much I miss about that game at this point but that's one thing I do miss.

Edited November 11, 2017 by Keta

[Nmyownworld]

I don't think the recent spate of solo-centric content is the sole, or even primary, factor behind the possible lack of group experience in a number of players. I think there are many factors.

 

A lot of nice players pug GF, but keep it real. There are some truly obnoxious players who pug, as well. It's hit or miss for ones GF pug experience. JennyFlynn's first FP group experience (which was terrible, and I'm sorry you had to deal with that), doesn't happen with every group, but it still happens. And, could be the first impression for grouping.

 

Going to role neutral for FPs may have increased the pop time for DPS, but it also removed a chance to practice ones role for later group content. Along with allowing level 15s to regularly group with level 70s. A new player on a low level tank isn't going to get much useful experience when grouped with (up to 3) much higher level DPSers who use more than their basic attack, no matter how many times the DPSers use their threat drop. Same for low level healers, when there are healing stations at the ready. Master Mode is often the first time new players start consistently getting trinity experience. Learning on the fly in a situation where role-relevant group know-how is expected.

 

And, joining a guild isn't a panacea for solo players wanting flaming-free group experience. Some players luck out and find a fit quickly; some go through a lot of guilds, looking for what's right for them, without success. Instead, they play solo.

 

I think whether the Star Wars or the MMO of it all (or both) attracted players to SWTOR, they are in the game for fun. Being denigrated, cussed out, and/or kicked for being new to group play isn't fun. Solo play is a way to enjoy the game without being screamed at for wanting to watch FP cutscenes, or while on a learning curve for a specc or role.

 

Solo players aren't a recent phenomena in game. There are nice players in groups, but some truly obnoxious players, too.

Edited November 11, 2017 by Nmyownworld

[GalacticKegger]

Is that grouping is painful.

 

With the server merge and the Darth Hexid companion to get Ive been doing a lot of FPs. And people are super nice, which is great, but you can tell they aren’t really used to grouping. They’ve done everything solo, from level 1 to 70.

 

As a result, not many people know how to properly tank or heal. DPS tunnels without killing adds, or moving out of bad stuff. And they’re not familiar with general grouping dynamics. A lot of this is also attributed to the fact that flashpoints are mostly tactical now, so we don’t really need the trinity. But I notice when we do have a tank, it can be a bit of a test of patience.

 

It’s nice to see full severs and I’m enjoying being able to actually find groups again for stuff. It feels like a couple years ago when we had healthy population. But hopefully people who are used to playing solo get more experience. 😊

This is the product of removing the pre-4.0 leveling game. Before KotFE progressing through planets emulated progressing through elder and end games nicely. Each planet had its own elder game (H2s and H4s) and end game (flashpoints) that allowed players who wanted to pursue the group play dynamic as they leveled their characters to learn and apply their abilities in a group environment through increasingly more difficult and complicated content as they progressed.

 

They learned how their character's abilities work in concert with other character's abilities. They learned what "seeing the field" means and how it applies to their character's roles. They learned how to be calm and creative amidst the chaos. They learned how to stay out of stupid. They learned how to be an asset instead of a liability.

 

That's all gone now, having been replaced by both the faceroll H2 and solo FP leveling game you mentioned, as well as bolstered tacticals where they either have to babysit kolto tanks or be carried by impatient level cappers who just want to get in and out for their dailies and weeklies. There really is no group leveling game anymore, and that extends through all 10 levels of the last two expansions which are (drum roll please ...) solo-only.

Edited November 11, 2017 by GalacticKegger

[PennyAnn]

Part of the frustration for veteran players is that no one seems to do any reading or figuring out on their own anymore. People don't read any of the MULTITUDE of guides available in any number of places that explain everything you need to know about your class, spec, gearing, and strategies for every single serious boss fight in this game (for uprisings, flashpoints, operations, and even tougher class story fights).

 

Dulfy for one has breakdowns of just about everything and there is really no reason someone can't come a little prepared, but they don't. It's frustrating. I don't mind helping people learn the mechanics of a fight they've never done before... but when someone says they've at least watched a fight video or read a guide I nearly faint because it's one in a million - even though the information is out there in abundance. THAT is the person I'm most willing to help - because they at least attempted to help themselves AND the groups they enter!

 

Whatever happened to someone being responsible for themselves when it comes to knowing some things about playing the game? No one bothers anymore... they just want to be carried, taught, or hand-held. Take some initiative for yourself and you're a WHOLE lot less likely to be griped at, kicked from groups, or encounter the scenario you fear the most in group content. Show up knowing nothing and making no attempt to familiarize yourself, and don't be surprised that those who do might roll their eyes at you or either kick you or leave themselves.

 

Being a valuable team member has become a lost art. Which is a real shame considering it isn't even that difficult to prepare yourself to at least know what you're doing at a basic level that needs little to no explanation from others.

[DWho]

Let's be honest here. Group Finder was not added to the game so that experienced players could speed run the content. It was put in place so that new players could more easily find groups to do content that they had not done before. Nowhere in the description of groupfinder did it say anything about "study up on the fights" or "read the guides". Experienced players were expected to have already found their own groups or guilds to run with and were not expected to be using groupfinder to any real extent. Groupfinder is a beginners mechanic. If you are running into a lot of players that don't know the fights then groupfinder is working the way it was supposed to as a teaching/learning system.

[Suzsi]

Every game has people that are new to grouping, raiding, tactical battles and so forth. This is not something new. If people had more patience so many wouldn't be afraid of the lfg tool and would learn quickly.

 

You would also be surprised just how many RPers are actually very good at this content because they are tight knit groups who work togeather with friends on these things regularly -- far more often then most realise and become very good at it. They also have a lot more patience with people who are new to that style of content. Id rather group with RPers anyday for PVE content. Part of RP stories often involves utilizing the games mechanics and content snd becoming good at it. Thats how it used to be in swg at least. What some may not have time for is impatient morons because they are usually there to enjoy the content not rush it.

Edited November 11, 2017 by Suzsi

[Nmyownworld]

Part of the frustration for veteran players is that no one seems to do any reading or figuring out on their own anymore. People don't read any of the MULTITUDE of guides available in any number of places that explain everything you need to know about your class, spec, gearing, and strategies for every single serious boss fight in this game (for uprisings, flashpoints, operations, and even tougher class story fights).

I agree. Thing is, it's no longer necessary to know how to play ones character, outside of group content (trinity, not role neutral). And, I don't think it's about OP companions. Dismiss a companion, or disengage their abilities, and defeat is still unlikely. I started playing SWTOR at the end of 2012. This was my first MMO. I had no clue what I was doing, and was regularly defeated by mobs. That resulted in my spending a lot of time checking out the New Player and Class forums, as well as Dulfy's guides. Understanding why I was defeated, and what I was doing wrong.

 

Now, with so much nerfing of open world mobs, and the ease of over-leveling a planet, there's little to nothing to let a new player know that there are things to learn. I saw a little of this with the very first 12XP event. In group content and on worlds, "Of course I'm doing things right. It worked for me so far," comments from mid to high level players mainly using their basic attack. More than once I saw high level Scoundrel/Ops or Shadow/Assassins stay at ranged distance in fights. Again, nobody could tell them nothing.

 

I agree that there are players who want to be carried, and could not care less about how well they play their characters in a group. However, I think there are new players who haven't checked guides, and read up on their specc or role, because they don't know they need to do that. They haven't needed to while doing their class story and planet arc missions.

This is the product of removing the pre-4.0 leveling game. Before KotFE progressing through planets emulated progressing through elder and end games nicely

I agree with this statement. Mobs on planets used to match available character skills. I remember my first visit to Pub Alderaan. I thought I was quite the impressive GS when I left Tatooine. Until the first time I engaged mobs on Alderaan. I learned that it was time to up my rotation game, and that interrupt was no longer just something on my quickbar. There's nothing like that in the leveling game anymore. The Star Wars part of SWTOR attracts players like myself. Those who know nothing about MMO play, but love Star Wars. Currently, there's nothing to challenge players to learn that there's more to their character than randomly using a few fighting abilities while leveling up in PVE.

Edited November 12, 2017 by Nmyownworld

[xeNNNNN]

They will gain more experience.

 

You see everyone starts somewhere when it comes too group content or anything really.

 

The more they make the attempt, the more they will learn. There will be freeloaders of course trying to get carried because they cant be bothered to try. But most will make the genuine effort to do well so they dont hinder the group.

 

Just dont be toxic towards them at any point and try to help them when they ask for it and you'll have smooth runs.

 

Ive found that too be true in nearly every MMO ive played. Give them time.

Edited November 11, 2017 by xeNNNNN

[DenariusJay]

It really has nothing to do with RP'ers, solo players, group players, etc.

 

It just boils down to understanding basic game mechanics. RP'rs and solo players do just fine in pvp and OPS content if they understand basic game mechanics.

 

Like knowing how to do an actual rotation, cycling dcds, anticipating damage (as tank and healers role, very important) staying out of stupid, etc. You can learn alot of these fairly easily if you just pay attention.

 

This game is really not hard at all..... the only hard content is basically ranked pvp and HM/NIMS ops, everything else is very learnable and doesn't take long to understand.

Edited November 11, 2017 by DenariusJay

[GalacticKegger]

Let's be honest here. Group Finder was not added to the game so that experienced players could speed run the content. It was put in place so that new players could more easily find groups to do content that they had not done before. Nowhere in the description of groupfinder did it say anything about "study up on the fights" or "read the guides". Experienced players were expected to have already found their own groups or guilds to run with and were not expected to be using groupfinder to any real extent. Groupfinder is a beginners mechanic. If you are running into a lot of players that don't know the fights then groupfinder is working the way it was supposed to as a teaching/learning system.

If the original PvE leveling game was still in place they wouldn't have to do anything but play through it to learn. But since that leveling game is gone they have no point of reference but Youtube videos and content guides to learn from.

 

GF's original intent was to be both a beginner's mechanic and a way for guilds to fill out incomplete groups without having to spam chat (which they do anyway for cheev and item level checks). But the reality is you will find more guildies using them for "guild runs" to blast through dailies and weeklies for the bonus rewards than solo players who simply want to play group content.

 

It's evolved that way with every MMO that has a grouping tool and is inevitable unless they change the rewards to minimize guild premades. That would all but kill what's left of the guild population, so there is no simple fix for this other than L2P, which takes us back to my first paragraph.

Edited November 11, 2017 by GalacticKegger

[Tsillah]

You sound like the people that I can not stand to be in my groups. If you expect people to space bar through things then don't do PUG groups simple as that. Do your FP's with friends or guild mates. If you complain about it in my group then I will purposely watch every single cut scene and conversation.

That's the world upside down. Most people want to space bar through it. So you're imposing your will on three others or else they should stop using the GF?

 

How about you do this with guildies and friends. They are likely to be more understanding than pugs, are they not?