Arcann romance appreciation thread! Haters keep out please!❤

[JakRoanin]

You can't have real love without some form of attachment. I mean absolutely no offense whatsoever, but Lucas's idea that Marriage = possession speaks more to HIM than it does to any healthy relationship. The entire master/padawan relationship is attachment! The Force literally bonds them together and only death severs it. How much more attached can it get? Obi was able to defeat Maul on Naboo because of his rage and pain of losing Qui-gon. Even over 30 yrs. later, he still bore those scars from Qui-Gon and Satine's murders. He might not have killed Maul (again) with anger and hate, but he still KILLED him!

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

1 hour ago, witchglove said:

it's clear that Lucas intended for attachments to lead to Anakin's fall. He fell because he was too full of fear to let go. He didn't accept the will of the Force concerning the deaths of his loved ones.

And yes, the Jedi Order failed Anakin in some ways - but blaming them for his actions and saying that no advice/poor advice is on par with Palpatine's manipulation is extreme, in my opinion. 

You're quite right in your interpretation. Lucas said as much. Lucas places the blame of Anakin falling to the Darkside solely on Anakin's shoulders.

..

"What drove me to make these movies is that this is a really interesting story about how people go bad. In this particular case, the premise is: Nobody thinks they're bad. They simply have different points of view. This is about a kid that's really wonderful. He has some flaws - and those flaws ultimately do him in.

"The core issue, ultimately, is greed, possessiveness - the inability to let go. Not only to hold on to material things, which is greed, but to hold on to life, to the people you love - to not accept the reality of life's passages and changes, which is to say things come, things go. Everything changes. Anakin becomes emotionally attached to things, his mother, his wife. That's why he falls - because he does not have the ability to let go."

"The Making of Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith" (p 53)

..

"Some people were having a hard time with the reason that Anakin goes bad. Somebody asked whether somebody could kill Anakin's best friend, so that he really gets angry. They wanted a real betrayal, such as, 'You tried to kill me so now I'm going to try and kill you.' They didn't understand the fact that Anakin is simply greedy. There is no revenge. The revenge of the Sith is Palpatine. It doesn't have much to do with Darth Vader; he's a pawn in the whole scheme.

"But then there were larger issues. So I had to ask myself, What was I trying to say and didn't I say it? Did it just get missed or is it not there? I had to look at it very hard. I had to ask myself, Is this how the audience is going to react? Fortunately, Steven confirmed that most of everything was working. So, I may lose a certain demographic - maybe, maybe not. But I had to make a decision, and I decided that I'm not going to alter the film to make it more commercial or marketable. I have to be true to my vision, which is thirty years old, but I have to be true to it."

"The Making of Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith" (p 188)

..

"Anakin's flaws, like all classic mythological heroes, are the flaws that everyone carries with them. The issue that he's confronting is that a good Jedi overcomes those flaws and goes above the normal human tragedy that most people have to experience."

~ George Lucas

..

"Fathered by the force Anakin was the most powerful Jedi/Sith to ever live, his greatest weakness had always been his emotions to which Palpatine took advantage of." Anakin never reached his Light/Dark side potential, he was called the "Force Messiah"

~ George Lucas, 2010

Edited June 17, 2023 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[JakRoanin]

How much fun stuff were GL and Mr. Steven drinking or inhaling? It is not greed to do everything possible to save any life let alone your mother, spouse, and children. If they had just said, "hey let's send someone to check if some really bad tuskan raid happened and see if this Kid's visions are legit" how would it hurt the Order? What if Yoda thought, "hey the last time this kid had dreams the bantha poo doo hit the roof better check it out," maybe Kit Fisto, (who was totally not was making smiles with Alaya) wouldn't have been beheaded.

Would Anakin still, eventually fall? Maybe. But GL's definition of possession and greed is thoroughly skewed when it comes to relationships.

A perfect example, is in this very game... Ava Jaxo. Even if PC falls madly in love they can still make the right choice. Yeah, it hurts.

Edited June 17, 2023 by JakRoanin

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

11 hours ago, JakRoanin said:

How much fun stuff were GL and Mr. Steven drinking or inhaling? It is not greed to do everything possible to save any life let alone your mother, spouse, and children. If they had just said, "hey let's send someone to check if some really bad tuskan raid happened and see if this Kid's visions are legit" how would it hurt the Order? What if Yoda thought, "hey the last time this kid had dreams the bantha poo doo hit the roof better check it out," maybe Kit Fisto, (who was totally not was making smiles with Alaya) wouldn't have been beheaded.

Would Anakin still, eventually fall? Maybe. But GL's definition of possession and greed is thoroughly skewed when it comes to relationships.

A perfect example, is in this very game... Ava Jaxo. Even if PC falls madly in love they can still make the right choice. Yeah, it hurts.

In reality, I'd agree with you.

But, we have to be careful making real life comparisons to a make believe universe. The Force doesn't exist in reality, but it does in the Star Wars Universe and it works a certain way and it doesn't want to be used in certain ways. And when you use it in ways it hadn't intended or wanted it perverts it and that is the Dark side. And when you use the Dark Side it perverts you. It works that way because that's how Lucas said it works and it's his creation.

I think it's important to denote here that it's just a question about using the Force and how having these sorts of attachments can make us use it in ways it doesn't want to be used because we would do just about anything for those we love. Even bad things to keep them safe. Lucas went into some more detail about this. Perhaps this will help some to explain his way of thinking. -

 

George Lucas: "Anakin wants to have a family. He wants to be married to Padme and have children. When he sees in his dreams that Padme is going to die, he doesn't know how, but it's pre-ordained. He's in love with her. He doesn't want her to die. He wants to possess her, to control that. He keeps on getting himself deeper and deeper into the pickle.

He wants a family, but at the same time he knows he can't have one. Now the greed has taken over and the fear of losing his wife and baby. The whole point is you can't possess somebody because they are their own person. You can't dominate and make them do everything you want them to do."

Paul Duncan: He had dreams about his mother as well, and he could not save her.

George Lucas: "Right. He's walking into a death trap and there's no way out."

Paul Duncan: Palpatine has been grooming him by saying how powerful he is.

George Lucas: "And he's also saying that "My mentor told me that there was a way that could stop death." Which was a lie. They can't. Anakin got sold a bill of goods because he wanted it so bad that he'd believe anything anybody would sell him."

Paul Duncan: Palpatine's a snake oil salesman.

George Lucas: "It's a scam. Anakin's made a pact with the Devil. "I want the power to save somebody from death. I want to be able to stop them from going to the river Styx, and I need to go to God for that, but the gods won't do it, so I'm going to have to go down to Hades and get the Dark Lord to allow me to have this power that will allow me to save the person I want to hang on to.

Ulitimately, it's about power. He traded his soul for the power. It's Faust. The more power he wants and the more power he gets, the more he loses. The Devil says, "You can become more powerful but you must past this first test." [...] In the end you have all this power but you have nobody to share it with, except for some wizened old man who's even more evil than you are.

If you're going to sell your soul to save somebody you love, that's as we say in the film, unnatural. You have to accept the natural course of life. Death is obviously the biggest of them all. Not only death for yourself but death for the things you care about."

~ George Lucas Interview form Star Wars Archives 1999-2005 by Paul Duncan, 2020

https://ibb.co/rwx8xdW

..

That's just how the Force works in Star Wars. That's how Lucas says it works and it's his creation, so he gets to say how it is.

All we get to do is like it or not. And either way is fine.

When Lucas said that Anakin fell because he was greedy. What he meant was that Anakin wanted not only to have a Family but he also wanted to be a Jedi too. He wanted both. He could have had one or the other, and that would have been fine, but, he didn't want to have to live like all the other Jedi lived. He wanted to be the exception. Anakin knew that becoming a Jedi meant you don't get to have your own family, he made that choice, but than he went back on it.

In order to save the one he loved he was willing to murder, use the Force in ways it didn't want to be used and he knew that, and was willing to make the entire galaxy suffer in Darkness for decades all because of one person. Padme.

It isn't okay to murder people to save the one you love, by taking away those other people love.

Palpatine told him to go murder every Jedi, all those innocent and defenseless children and Anakin did it to save Padme and he used the Force to injure and kill people. 

If that's not selfish and greedy, I don't know what is. heh

But, if you have a different view on it, that's fine too, you are certainly entitled to a different opinion.

Edited June 17, 2023 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[JakRoanin]

My issue is that the scope is way too narrow. Again, Lucas was incredibly inconsistent because Luke refused to let go of his attachments. 

The Jedi destroyed the Jedi, not Anakin. Anakin was the gun, Palpatine aimed him, but the Jedi by being "absolutists" (as an Organization) and by refusing to act on what they knew walked right into Palpatine's trap. The worst part is, they never changed.

 

Obi-Wan- "Only a Sith sees in absolutes" 🫤 "He's more machine now, than man. Twisted and Evil."

Yoda- Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. 

They were Wrong! And yes, Anakin is completely responsible for his actions! However, the fall of the Jedi is something so huge and was rotting for so long that they would have still fallen even if he hadn't been born.

As for The Force, it is an energy field, energy itself is neither constructive or destructive, that comes from the user. GL wants a totally binary system which excludes anything "other" and it doesn't work. The Jedi are extreme the galaxy burns, the Sith are always going to tear themselves apart. It's a never-ending cycle of destruction. Plus there are entire species in his own Galaxy Force Sensitive and neither Jedi or Sith, with normal lives and they are FINE as a whole.

This has gotten way too far off topic about Arcann so, to bring it back around, like Anakin he was completely responsible for the evil he inflicted on the Galaxy! But like Luke it was the love of his mother that motivated him to save her. Realizing that he hadn't been abandoned, knowing that someone still loved him, and believed in him motivated him to take the first step that allowed the Voss ritual to work.

A non-binary approach to the Force and a more open Force Focused Jedi allows more nuance, and richness.

[witchglove]

1 hour ago, WayOfTheWarriorx said:

When Lucas said that Anakin fell because he was greedy. What he meant was that Anakin wanted not only to have a Family but he also wanted to be a Jedi too. He wanted both. He could have had one or the other, and that would have been fine, but, he didn't want to have to live like all the other Jedi lived. He wanted to be the exception. Anakin knew that becoming a Jedi meant you don't get to have your own family, he made that choice, but than he went back on it.
 

This is precisely how I always interpreted it. Anakin's fatal flaw is that he tries to inhabit two worlds. That results in inauthenticity and corruption (which is also evidenced by his secret marriage to Padme - something that tears them both apart). To the Jedi "there is no death; there is the Force": they must be able to apply that belief to the loss of loved ones, too. I don't think anyone would expect someone to be able to be that zen about the death of your wife, which is why you shouldn't have a wife as a Jedi!

I believe this pertains to the Jedi and their way of connecting with the Force, specifically. I don't have the impression at all that Lucas felt that attachments are bad in SW in general (the galaxy would soon be a very empty place, if it was so!) or in RL, but again: the Jedi can be viewed as space monks/samurai who live by a code. Deviating from that code tends to end badly. It isn't just about attachment leading to fear and greed, either. It's also about eschewing worldly and carnal desires which keep you grounded in a lifestyle that (to my mind) is not compatible with the life of a Jedi (this is also why I will always feel that casual, frivolous sexual activities make zero sense for the Jedi, the same way I don't think they would overindulge in things like food, drink, and other sensual pleasures - for the exact same reasons that RL monastic orders typically don't).

The Lucas quotes are wonderful, @WayOfTheWarriorx - I've very much enjoyed reading all the ones you've posted and bookmarking the sources 🙂I'm also loving this discussion and want to reiterate that I don't at all mind that we don't all completely agree.

1 hour ago, JakRoanin said:

This has gotten way too far off topic about Arcann so, to bring it back around, like Anakin he was completely responsible for the evil he inflicted on the Galaxy! But like Luke it was the love of his mother that motivated him to save her. Realizing that he hadn't been abandoned, knowing that someone still loved him, and believed in him motivated him to take the first step that allowed the Voss ritual to work.

A non-binary approach to the Force and a more open Force Focused Jedi allows more nuance, and richness.

I agree regarding Arcann, but I think it's important here that he is not a Jedi. Arcann comes from a culture where Force-users don't think in terms of "Dark" and "Light" and where attachments are not considered "a dangerous path". For him, I think a relationship only increases his growing empathy and connection to the Light side. But our Jedi characters would have to connect to the Force in an entirely new way (not as a Jedi who must try to live up to the dispassionate ideal we've discussed, however unattainable it might be). I can see a "secret" romance between Arcann and a Jedi PC turning catastrophic in the same way (for our character) as it did for Anakin, unless she is willing to make a choice.

I wouldn't necessarily be angry with a storyline that depicted the Jedi Order changing their approach to the Force. I might accept a romance and marriage for my JK, then. But I would need to see that depicted in game (and hopefully thoroughly explored without resorting to "the Jedi were always hypocrites"-style storytelling) before I can accept that my JK can romance Arcann (or anyone) with no repurcussions.

Edited June 17, 2023 by witchglove

[JakRoanin]

I feel so... Contrary? Uppity? Totally, ornery? IDK but I kind of feel bad because I so thoroughly feel that Lucas's Vison contradicts and tears itself apart. Aside from Anakin, just in TPM and AotC the Jedi screwed up so badly about things that Anakin had not part of, that to narrow the focus to simply "Anakin is greedy" cheapens the whole saga. 

That's why literally the ONLY SW's I care about is the Favarro/Filoni Mando verse, and KOTOR/SWTOR. Thank the stars for the Bendu and the Voss.

Back to Arcann, he proves Jolee Bindo "Love will save you, not condemn you."

[witchglove]

2 hours ago, JakRoanin said:

I feel so... Contrary? Uppity? Totally, ornery? IDK but I kind of feel bad because I so thoroughly feel that Lucas's Vison contradicts and tears itself apart. Aside from Anakin, just in TPM and AotC the Jedi screwed up so badly about things that Anakin had not part of, that to narrow the focus to simply "Anakin is greedy" cheapens the whole saga. 

That's why literally the ONLY SW's I care about is the Favarro/Filoni Mando verse, and KOTOR/SWTOR. Thank the stars for the Bendu and the Voss.

Back to Arcann, he proves Jolee Bindo "Love will save you, not condemn you."

No need to feel bad! I don't think you've blasphemed against the Maker or anything (the SWTOR Devs are my Makers, anyway!) 😉

I didn't mean to reduce everything bad that happens in the saga to 'Anakin is greedy'. I was talking specifically about attachments and how they affect him. The Jedi make many mistakes, especially in the Prequal era, I just don't think that not allowing attachments is the issue. Yoda says they've grown arrogant, which translates into complacency regarding Anakin and several other events that they really should have been more alert to.

I love Force-using cultures with alternative views, including Voss and obviously Zakuul. And Jolee Bindo is one of my favourite KOTOR characters - but correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't he leave the Order after growing disillusioned with it? That's all I want for my JK: the ability to leave the Order, if she can no longer believe in/commit to its doctrines. She does not want to do an Anakin and have a secret romance/try to live in both worlds. All I want for her is the option to choose (or, alternately, see the story develop in a way where the Jedi significantly change to permit attachments, but to be honest, I'm not sure SWTOR is the best medium for telling that story - it wouldn't be very satisfying for someone who doesn't play/care about Jedi).

As for Arcann: I agree that "love will save you, not condemn you" holds true for him. My JK would see that, too, and that might be one of the things that would sway her to leave the Order (Arcann being saved by love does not = Jedi should be free and able to form attachments as they please). I don't ever want to see Arcann turning into a Jedi, no matter how much goodness and Light is in him, and this is one of the major reasons why!

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

3 hours ago, witchglove said:

This is precisely how I always interpreted it. Anakin's fatal flaw is that he tries to inhabit two worlds. That results in inauthenticity and corruption (which is also evidenced by his secret marriage to Padme - something that tears them both apart). To the Jedi "there is no death; there is the Force": they must be able to apply that belief to the loss of loved ones, too. I don't think anyone would expect someone to be able to be that zen about the death of your wife, which is why you shouldn't have a wife as a Jedi!

I have to say you are such a breath of fresh air.

Star Wars has been perverted by what Lucas referred to as "parallel Star Wars universe" stories. Which is what he said the EU took place in. He allowed them, but made a very clear separation of them and 'real Star Wars' and he didn't consider it part of the canon. He was very vocal on this point as well. And this is why you found so many contradictions between other peoples works and what Lucas did on The Clone Wars series which he loved and was massively involved with. All the stories came from him, and nothing was in any episode that didn't have his direct approval.

And don't get me wrong, it's fine for people to love all this other stuff that was created, but Lucas himself said that they are not in keeping with his vision of Star Wars. I have tons of quotes from him about that too, and if you are interested, I'd be happy to send them to you.

So all this other stuff, it's other peoples versions of it, but not what Lucas said Star Wars was. I'm very much a Lucas Canon Loyalist, and it seems very much in a lot of ways you are too. You seem to be able to see these differences in interpretation.

And again, all this other stuff, it's fine if people like it, and if that's how they like their Star Wars, that's their business. But, if you are talking about real Star Wars, we have to accept that Lucas as the maker and creator of Star Wars, his version is the real one. That doesn't mean people necessarily have to like what he says Star Wars is, but what he says it is is definitely correct.

5 hours ago, witchglove said:

I believe this pertains to the Jedi and their way of connecting with the Force, specifically. I don't have the impression at all that Lucas felt that attachments are bad in SW in general (the galaxy would soon be a very empty place, if it was so!) or in RL, but again: the Jedi can be viewed as space monks/samurai who live by a code. Deviating from that code tends to end badly. It isn't just about attachment leading to fear and greed, either. It's also about eschewing worldly and carnal desires which keep you grounded in a lifestyle that (to my mind) is not compatible with the life of a Jedi (this is also why I will always feel that casual, frivolous sexual activities make zero sense for the Jedi, the same way I don't think they would overindulge in things like food, drink, and other sensual pleasures - for the exact same reasons that RL monastic orders typically don't).

I couldn't agree more.  You totally get it. Your views are totally in keeping with Lucas's vision. Lucas always said that he made Star Wars to try and teach the young right from wrong. That's why Star Wars is very black and white.

I think sometimes people forget that being a Jedi is not only about a philosophy about the Force. It's also a job.

Your Samurai analogy is very appropriate. In fact, Jedi are in some aspects inspired by Samurai . Lucas said as much. The reason they were the robes they do, that's based on the Kimono.

And their symbolic weapons (Lightsabers) are somewhat akin to Katanas, the samurai sword.

The Samurai lived by a code as well. The Way of the Warrior (which is why I have the screen name I do, I was very into martial arts and the Code of the Samurai and feudal Japan.)

They're called Jedi Knights for a reason. Samurai was essentially just the Japanese word for 'Knight'. They served a kingdom, the kingdom of their leige lord (Daimyo). Knights serve the realm and it's lawful leader.

The Jedi serve the Republic, that's their kingdom. And while they are capable of fighting, and are trained for it, they're more spiritually minded like Samurai were.

..

"They're like Marshals in the Old West. They're keepers of the peace. They're given assignments to resolve conflicts."

~ George Lucas, Attack of the Clones "Good to G.O." Featurette, 2002

https://ibb.co/KrKRcry

..

"Then the Republic came to power and the Jedi brought peace to the galaxy by being ambassadors and troubleshooters....The Jedi don't like to fight or kill people. They're monk-warriors. They're monks first, and they try and convince people to get along. And if you don't comply, your hands come off. They use their power to keep the governments of all the planets in line, so that they don't do terrible things."

Paul Duncan - 'And they have the moral authority for that?'

"Yeah. They are the most moral of anybody in the galaxy. They're monks."

~ George Lucas interview, The Star Wars Archives: 1999-2005, 2020

https://ibb.co/fNPSYxN

..

“Jedi are like negotiators. They aren’t people that go out and blow up planets, they aren’t people that shoot down things. They are more of a one-to-one combat type. So I just want a form of fighting and the role of the Jedi Knight to be special and more spiritual, and more intellectual than just a fighter or a superhero, or something like that.”

George Lucas - The Phantom Menace, “Prime of the Jedi” Featurette, 2001

..

5 hours ago, witchglove said:

The Lucas quotes are wonderful, @WayOfTheWarriorx - I've very much enjoyed reading all the ones you've posted and bookmarking the sources 🙂I'm also loving this discussion and want to reiterate that I don't at all mind that we don't all completely agree.

I'm very happy you've been enjoying the quotes. I've got 1000s of them covering all topics in Star Wars. I know as a Star Wars fan I always want to learn as much about it as I can and what better source than the Maker himself.

No one's gonna agree on everything. People have different views and opinions on things sometimes and everyone is entitled to that. As long long as people are respectful to each other wherein they may disagree, there's no harm on it. We all learn from each other.

Be a pretty boring world if we all always agreed on everything!

I've been very impressed with your knowledge and views on Star Wars and I love your respect of Lucas's vision, even if you may not agree with every little bit of it.

Way I feel about it, Lucas is the one that gave us all this great gift of Star Wars, whatever someone's take on it may be, and I always kinda feel in thanks for that gift that we at least acknowledge that he's the one that created it and his vision of Star Wars is authoritative. Star Wars is as he says it is, even if you don't like everything that he says it is.

Beyond that, people can head-canon whatever they want.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

5 hours ago, JakRoanin said:

I feel so... Contrary? Uppity? Totally, ornery? IDK but I kind of feel bad because I so thoroughly feel that Lucas's Vison contradicts and tears itself apart. Aside from Anakin, just in TPM and AotC the Jedi screwed up so badly about things that Anakin had not part of, that to narrow the focus to simply "Anakin is greedy" cheapens the whole saga. 

That's why literally the ONLY SW's I care about is the Favarro/Filoni Mando verse, and KOTOR/SWTOR. Thank the stars for the Bendu and the Voss.

Back to Arcann, he proves Jolee Bindo "Love will save you, not condemn you."

Dude, you're entitled to your views and what you like and what you don't like.

There's quite a few people out there that don't love everything Lucas did and all his views.

For me it's easy. I love everything he did. And for me, as he is the Maker, whatever he says Star Wars is what Star Wars is.

I always say "I don't have opinions on Star Wars, I just have George Lucas."

You may not love everything he did, but at least you acknowledge that he had the right to define what Star Wars is.

I don't agree with some of your views on things, I may not share them, but I totally respect your right to hold them and you explain why you don't like some of the things you don't.

You can like or not like whatever you want and you can care about or not care about whatever you want.

That's what head-canon is for and all you're doing is exercising your right to head canon some things.

7 hours ago, JakRoanin said:

This has gotten way too far off topic about Arcann so, to bring it back around, like Anakin he was completely responsible for the evil he inflicted on the Galaxy!

You're quite right. And with that, I will leave you guys to get back to talking about Arcann. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to derail the conversation.

As I'm not a big fan of Arcann,  I won't interject into that conversation. This string is for people who love Arcann and I respect that this is a string for his fans to talk about things related to him without outside influences or 'hating' on Arcann. This is your space.

I wish you guys well.

May the Force be with you.

Edited June 17, 2023 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[witchglove]

1 hour ago, WayOfTheWarriorx said:

I have to say you are such a breath of fresh air.

Star Wars has been perverted by what Lucas referred to as "parallel Star Wars universe" stories. Which is what he said the EU took place in. He allowed them, but made a very clear separation of them and 'real Star Wars' and he didn't consider it part of the canon. He was very vocal on this point as well. And this is why you found so many contradictions between other peoples works and what Lucas did on The Clone Wars series which he loved and was massively involved with. All the stories came from him, and nothing was in any episode that didn't have his direct approval.

And don't get me wrong, it's fine for people to love all this other stuff that was created, but Lucas himself said that they are not in keeping with his vision of Star Wars. I have tons of quotes from him about that too, and if you are interested, I'd be happy to send them to you.

So all this other stuff, it's other peoples versions of it, but not what Lucas said Star Wars was. I'm very much a Lucas Canon Loyalist, and it seems very much in a lot of ways you are too. You seem to be able to see these differences in interpretation.

And again, all this other stuff, it's fine if people like it, and if that's how they like their Star Wars, that's their business. But, if you are talking about real Star Wars, we have to accept that Lucas as the maker and creator of Star Wars, his version is the real one. That doesn't mean people necessarily have to like what he says Star Wars is, but what he says it is is definitely correct.

I couldn't agree more.  You totally get it. Your views are totally in keeping with Lucas's vision. Lucas always said that he made Star Wars to try and teach the young right from wrong. That's why Star Wars is very black and white.

I think sometimes people forget that being a Jedi is not only about a philosophy about the Force. It's also a job.

Your Samurai analogy is very appropriate. In fact, Jedi are in some aspects inspired by Samurai . Lucas said as much. The reason they were the robes they do, that's based on the Kimono.

And their symbolic weapons (Lightsabers) are somewhat akin to Katanas, the samurai sword.

The Samurai lived by a code as well. The Way of the Warrior (which is why I have the screen name I do, I was very into martial arts and the Code of the Samurai and feudal Japan.)

They're called Jedi Knights for a reason. Samurai was essentially just the Japanese word for 'Knight'. They served a kingdom, the kingdom of their leige lord (Daimyo). Knights serve the realm and it's lawful leader.

The Jedi serve the Republic, that's their kingdom. And while they are capable of fighting, and are trained for it, they're more spiritually minded like Samurai were.

Thank you so much! I've really enjoyed this discussion and I would love for it to continue, but I recognize that we are derailing the Arcann thread. Maybe you and I can start a lore discussion elsewhere, @WayOfTheWarriorx? I feel like I've been screaming that the Jedi are warrior-monks and that the Code has to matter for so long, and it's honestly extremely refreshing to find someone who agrees 😊

I would love for you to send me some more quotes! Please feel free to PM me 🙂I came to Star Wars in a roundabout way, so I'm an Old Republic fan first and foremost, but it is Lucas' vision (of the Jedi in particular) that I've come to be truly fascinated by. I'm also lowkey obsessed with the inspiration Lucas' drew from Joseph Campbell's Jungian theories on myths and archetypes.  It's what I like to try to depict faithfully in my own fan writing and what I aim to talk about on the SWTOR podcast I cohost with @Siita, sometime down the line - and like I said earlier, the internal conflict I envision for my JK in a romance with Arcann as a result of these things is a major reason why I became invested in the romance with him to begin with (though I would still love him as a character without the romance aspect).

1 hour ago, WayOfTheWarriorx said:

As I'm not a big fan of Arcann,  I won't interject into that conversation. This string is for people who love Arcann and I respect that this is a string for his fans to talk about things related to him without outside influences or 'hating' on Arcann. This is your space.

I wish you guys well.

May the Force be with you.

I know the thread title says "no haters", and I may be alone among the Arcannites in this, but I actually find it pretty interesting to hear from the occasional outsider who doesn't like him, so long as they are open to discussion and don't call us names 😉 To me, Arcann embodies so many of the themes and archetypes I most enjoy in Star Wars that I'm always slightly surprised when other lore geeks dislike him (but perhaps the Eternal Empire arc is just too far from Lucas' Star Wars to appeal to you?). 

Regardless, thank you for stopping by. May the Force be with you, as well!

[JakRoanin]

2 hours ago, WayOfTheWarriorx said:

 

You may not love everything he did, but at least you acknowledge that he had the right to define what Star Wars is.

 

I think the operative word is had the right to define what "real SW's is" nobody put a gun to his head to allow the EU to happen. Nobody put a gun to his head to make him sell the whole lock stock and barrel to Disney. If he truly considered anything out of "his vision" not 'real' SW's then ooops. Kind of dropped the ball there. As to Real SW's. What's 'real' should be what you love.

PS. without the EU Thrawn and Timothy Zhan would not be the legends they are, and Han shot first.

PPS. I don't mind engaging with people who do not love Arcann, but people who target others who do are not worth the energy.

As for Arcann, now that he's reaching out on his own to the Galactic community, I want a scene with Satele, Senya, Arcann, Gnost Dural, and Arryn Lannier.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

1 minute ago, JakRoanin said:

I think the operative word is had the right to define what "real SW's is"

Quite right. But what he did is part of canon. And you mentioned that you are a fan of Filoni (as am I), Lucas is the one that taught Filoni how to make Star Wars. They worked side by side in his Clone Wars series and Filoni is very vocal about his relationship with Lucas and how they still talk and asks him about things and he still honors his vision and his canon.

For example -

"We still talk and if I’m stuck I will bug George for ideas." Filoni went on to explain, "He is the canon. He created it and I respect that. One of my jobs and purposes is to keep things as intact to what George laid down as possible."
~ Dave Filoni, 2020

..

"Now twelve years and I love it.  I’ve never run out of exciting things I want to do or want to tell.  I feel a big responsibility, to be quite honest, to George, to be here and try to influence things the way he’d want them to be.”

~ Dave Filoni 2016

..

“I was fortunate enough to learn directly from George Lucas kind of the Do’s and Don’ts, and it was a learning experience. If my team and I have had any success now, it’s improving and getting better over the years, and learning from George. That’s what makes this all work. I think people like Ahsoka because they relate to her. I think that her being very young and very brash and the way that she behaves allowed the greater scope for her to have a maturity, for her to progress and grow as a character that over a long period of time paid off. I think when people go and watch Luke Skywalker as a young man in a New Hope, a lot of people commented, ‘Oh, he sounds whiny.’  George knew to begin with a character of inexperience, whether we like that or not, and grow them in a way that the audience came to respect them."

~ Dave Filoni, 2020

..

IGN: Ahsoka clearly she has some feelings for Lux, but she’s also a Jedi, and she’s trying to be a good Jedi and abide by their rules. But there’s an interesting moment where Anakin tells Ahsoka he can kind of understand her feelings. How much of a door do you think that was opening to Ahsoka? How much do you think she was reading into that and what Anakin’s been hiding from everyone, when he said that?

"For Jedi, this is a totally normal thing. You fall in love, you grow fond of people. But what separates the Jedi from others is that they learn not to have an attachment. They learn to let go of these attachments, and then they work more to the greater good, and not selfishly."

~ Dave Filoni Interview, Star Wars: The Clone Wars - Dave Filoni Looks Back at Season 5, 2013

https://www.ign.com/articles/2013/03/07/star-wars-the-clone-wars-supervising-director-dave-filonis-season-5-wrap-up-discussion?epik=dj0yJnU9bVNaLWd4TjVZRU0yQW1GbEYtUVFIZHJWNUVCU0dCOWImcD0wJm49am5KdjdmZE1JNTktUkt5T3Q1b3FsQSZ0PUFBQUFBR0g5RVZZ

..

13 minutes ago, JakRoanin said:

nobody put a gun to his head to allow the EU to happen

 

I was an EU fan for many years, but I acknowledged that it was something separate from 'real Star Wars'. And at that time, Lucas was in charge, and he said it wasn't part of 'real Star Wars' as he said, those things don't ever happen in real Star Wars. But quite honestly, and this is just a personal opinion, at a certain point I really couldn't stomach the EU anymore. It just got so far away of anything resembling Lucas's Star Wars that it felt alien to it to me. But. I read a ton of it and played those games and all. Some of the earlier stuff I did like though.

While you are quite right again, no one put a gun to his head to allow it, but he stated very clearly that the EU was not part of his Star Wars universe, was not in keeping with is vision and was not part of the Canon.

For example -

"And now there have been novels about the events after Episode VI, which isn't at all what I would have done with it. The Star Wars story is really the tragedy of Darth Vader. That is the story. Once Vader dies, he doesn't come back to life, the Emperor doesn't get cloned and Luke doesn't get married."

~ George Lucas,Total Film Magazine Interview, 2008
https://ibb.co/x5q1RrQ

..

"I get asked all the time, 'What happens after "Return of the Jedi"?,' and there really is no answer for that," he said. "The movies were the story of Anakin Skywalker and Luke Skywalker, and when Luke saves the galaxy and redeems his father, that's where that story ends.""

~ George Lucas, Flannelled One, May 2008, "George Lucas: 'Star Wars' won't go beyond Darth Vader", interview with Los Angeles Times

Star Wars Insider 108, 2009

Full Page - https://ibb.co/7tBy5VK

..

"I don't read that stuff, I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try and keep it consistent. The way I do it is they have a Star Wars encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it and see if it has already been used. When I said other people could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have TWO universes: My Universe and than this other one. They try to make THEIR universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions."

~ George Lucas Starlog Magazine Interview, 2005

- https://ibb.co/Km1CcNs

..

”The novels and comic books are other authors' interpretations of my creation.  Sometimes, I tell them what they can and cant do, but I just don't have the time to read them. They're not my vision of what Star Wars is."

 ~ George Lucas, 2004

https://ibb.co/4gSjpjN

..

Dave Filoni said it tons of times over the years what Lucas thought about the stuff from other people. Lucas didn't consider it valid and he was in charge at the time.

..

"There's this notion that everything changed when everything became Legends. And I can see why people think that. But, you know, having worked with George I can tell you that it was always very clear -- and he made it very clear -- that the films and the TV shows were the only things that he considered Canon. That was it."

Dave Filoni interview on 'The Star Wars show' [41.40 mark]-

https://youtu.be/hcNXPNXOv2A?t=2500

..

And yes, Lucas sold Star Wars, it now belongs to Disney. Please don't remind me.

21 minutes ago, JakRoanin said:

PS. without the EU Thrawn and Timothy Zhan would not be the legends they are, and Han shot first.

I was big fan of Timothy Zahn's Trilogy, he did an excellent job. But, it wasn't canon.

But, People can love whatever they want.

And as far as Han shooting first. George Lucas would definitely disagree with you on that!

I know a lot of people have a problem with that, and that's fine, but, Lucas said he didn't shoot first, and it was his property when he said it. I go with what Lucas says.

25 minutes ago, JakRoanin said:

PPS. I don't mind engaging with people who do not love Arcann, but people who target others who do are not worth the energy.

Well, that's very open and big of you and I respect that.

But, I also respect the fact that the title of this string is what it is. I just feel that the people here are entitled to have their discussions in peace and they get to set the rules for this string.

It doesn't matter what I think about Arcann. I can have my opinions on that subject but I don't see any reason to express my views if it might upset some of the people who take part in this long lasting string and I feel pretty confident most people here wouldn't like my thoughts on it.

I see no reason to target others for what they like and I want you guys to have to have your space to talk about things related to Arcann without feeling targeted. Without people judging you for your views on him and his story and the romance factor for those who might have chose that.

We don't have to agree on everything to still be respectful of each others right to their views. And even though you and I do have some different views on things, I still enjoyed the interaction and hearing your side of it and your point of view. You made some very good points.

We just come at Star Wars from different vantage points. Your more open to interpretations and head canon and all that.

I'm just an old school Star Wars fan and for me Star Wars is about Lucas's vision as it's creator.

I don't want to derail this discussion any more than I already have. So this will be my last post here.

May the Force be with you.

 

 

 

 

[JakRoanin]

How can Han shoot first in the ORIGINAL Ep. IV, and in the re-release not? GL Changed his own canon 100,000 times. Originally Leia wasn't Luke's twin. She did stick her tongue in his mouth, (still canon btw) and Vader wasn't their father. GL could and did twist so much up just in the films, that arguing about canon has been pointless to me since I was 15. I'm 39 now, and I still agree. The man can say what he wants but in the end, art is about the viewer's thoughts not the artist's.

I love Filloni because Kanan and Hera were perfect, and there was no reason other Jedi couldn't do the same if the Order hadn't been so screwed up. I love what Favaro does with Grogu because it proves being Force Sensitive doesn't damn one to darkness if they don't follow the Jedi way. I love the Bendu because a totally binary state is not how anything works in any sort of nature and life doesn't thrive in it.

I'm done ranting and I apologize if I caused any offense. I guess I'm still ticked off about GL lying to a terminally ill child when Make A Wish got him to Skywalker Ranch and GL swore to him that he'd make it canon for Jedi to marry. The kid died soon after RotS released and as we know, Lucas never did it. Cold man just cold.

Edited June 18, 2023 by JakRoanin

[TziganeNZ]

I've just played partially through Old Wounds on my LS SW, romanced to Arcann.  That is one of the best reunion scenes in the game - so sweet, yet not sickly, and with evident depth of feeling on both sides.  The part

Spoiler

where they are standing close together in the doorway, eyes closed and just....bonding, is so simple yet so powerful *chef's kiss*.

 

[JakRoanin]

Amen! The fact that the non-romanced friends return a respectful bow, and the Romances get a kiss, a hug, closed eyes is just luscious. We haven't had anything so good since Aric Jorgun! Bravo devs, bravo, and more please with all the LI's. Or letters, ya know lots of letters.

[witchglove]

Yes, everything we got in 7.3 was perfection!

I wanted to bring something up about some interpretations I've seen (not here, but on other fansites) that kind of bother me. Heavy 7.3. spoilers below, obviously.

Spoiler

I've seen some people say that they dislike how Arcann says that he foresaw his relationships with the Commander in his visions. They interpret it as him being 'destined to fall in love' and they feel that it robs him of agency...

I couldn't disagree more. That isn't what I thought he was saying at all. Here are his lines:

Romanced version:

Quote

But in my vision, I also saw a place by your side, and what I needed to become to be worthy of it... I saw the work I could do, how I could dedicate myself to atonement - like helping you stop Darth Malgus.

Unromanced:

Quote

But there were visions of hope as well, of serving a greater purpose. I saw the work I could do, how I could dedicate myself to atonement - like helping you stop Darth Malgus.

As I interpret those lines, he is simply saying that he saw (during the Voss ritual) that he had a role to play at the Commander's side. He doesn't say that he knew from the start that he was destined to love her/him. He also states that he thought they were only dreams at first, until they resurfaced during his mission and Sana-Rae helped him understand them, so even if he had foreseen a romantic relationship with the Commander, I think he would have dismissed it back then.

And even if I'm wrong in my interpretation, I don't actually think it ruins anything if Arcann had known that he was destined to love the PC. This is Star Wars and destiny is a real phenomenon, like the Force, but he still had agency and chose how to act on that knowledge. Destiny isn't a mind-controlling force in SW that makes you feel or act a certain way, as I view it. I imagine it's more like a feeling of "rightness" or things falling into place (which sounds a lot like the feeling you have in a healthy, loving relationship, actually).

I personally think that his visions a major and extremely interesting step in character development. This is someone who went from "I choose my own fate" and "I am beyond prophecy" to a calmer, more spiritual, and far more open mindset. "They opened my mind to unreachable distances".

What do the rest of you think?

 

[JakRoanin]

Interesting topic @witchglove, The wording is very specific and deliberate with both options. I think the key is in the context of both options when he talks about seeing things from the past, future, and things that will never be. I don't believe he took these visions (which he admits he believed were mere dreams) as anything 'real,' so, I believe they served him as the hope, that he could, be either the Love or Spouse of the PC, or a pillar of the restoration efforts in the galaxy. It also, emphasizes the need for choice!

[cosmicchar]

6 hours ago, witchglove said:

Yes, everything we got in 7.3 was perfection!

I wanted to bring something up about some interpretations I've seen (not here, but on other fansites) that kind of bother me. Heavy 7.3. spoilers below, obviously.

  Reveal hidden contents

I've seen some people say that they dislike how Arcann says that he foresaw his relationships with the Commander in his visions. They interpret it as him being 'destined to fall in love' and they feel that it robs him of agency...

I couldn't disagree more. That isn't what I thought he was saying at all. Here are his lines:

Romanced version:

Unromanced:

As I interpret those lines, he is simply saying that he saw (during the Voss ritual) that he had a role to play at the Commander's side. He doesn't say that he knew from the start that he was destined to love her/him. He also states that he thought they were only dreams at first, until they resurfaced during his mission and Sana-Rae helped him understand them, so even if he had foreseen a romantic relationship with the Commander, I think he would have dismissed it back then.

And even if I'm wrong in my interpretation, I don't actually think it ruins anything if Arcann had known that he was destined to love the PC. This is Star Wars and destiny is a real phenomenon, like the Force, but he still had agency and chose how to act on that knowledge. Destiny isn't a mind-controlling force in SW that makes you feel or act a certain way, as I view it. I imagine it's more like a feeling of "rightness" or things falling into place (which sounds a lot like the feeling you have in a healthy, loving relationship, actually).

I personally think that his visions a major and extremely interesting step in character development. This is someone who went from "I choose my own fate" and "I am beyond prophecy" to a calmer, more spiritual, and far more open mindset. "They opened my mind to unreachable distances".

What do the rest of you think?

 

 

My interpretation in spoilers below:

Spoiler

I think the key is that he relates those visions to hope, even though he doesn't explicitly say "hope" in his romanced line. And the reason why his romanced lines are different is because the closer, romantic relationship between him and PC calls for a more personal-sounding line. He's not saying that he actually foresaw falling in love, despite calling them visions. He calls them visions now because Sana-Rae told him that was the reason why the ruins felt familiar. But when he had experienced them during KOTET, he thought the visions were dreams caused by his injured and feverish state. In any case, I think he hasn't thought about those visions/dreams at all since KOTET. Therefore, in all these years since then, he hasn't been atoning because he thinks it's his destiny to do so. He makes the choice to do so.

I find it extremely interesting that, during KOTFE, Arcann called the Scions' visions as nonsense, but now he calls the Mystics' visions as gifts. I interpret this apparent drastic change as not actually that drastic of a change. He doesn't adopt the certainty that either group has with their visions, it merely opened his mind to new possibilities. It's important that he says "the past, what may happen, what never will", instead of "what will happen". So even though Arcann has said before in KOTET that his destiny is to join the Alliance", I interpret it the same as @JakRoanin. This is the first time that destiny/visions/dreams served as hope. Not all has been lost, he is still able to make the conscious choice, do the work everyday to atone, make amends, rebuild.

Ultimately, Arcann still lives by "I choose my own fate." and "I forge my own destiny by making the hard choices." Previously, the hard choice was sacrificing everything and disregarding the collateral damage. Now, taking the steps every day to make amends with all those he's hurt is the new hard choice.

Edited June 18, 2023 by cosmicchar

[JakRoanin]

Here's the thing about the scions, they see their visions as Fact, an inescapable Fate that must take place. This is in direct contrast to the idea that the future is always in motion, that the Jedi are supposed to embrace (Master Kaden aside). The Voss again reside firmly in the middle at a pivot point, in essence they say, you can't control what happens, but you can control what you do when it happens.

For Arcann, the Scions (more likely Heskal) were probably baying for Arcann's death since birth. If not that, definitely hounding him about being the destroyer of their Civilization. That compounded by Valkorian's abuse, would make anyone snap. 

With the Voss, they tell him yes, this is what will come, but you control you. That's a powerful sense of freedom. Something that will go a long way to heal Arcann's rage against the idea of Fate.

[cosmicchar]

Don't the Voss also see their visions as fact? Mystics and their visions are seen as law. And in the most recent update,

Spoiler

the Three call themselves powerless to fight the upcoming conflict because their visions are empty.

 

44 minutes ago, JakRoanin said:

in essence they say, you can't control what happens, but you can control what you do when it happens.

I find this contradictory. If you can control your own actions, but you can't control what happens, are you even in control? The point of agency is that you can control your actions, and your actions are powerful enough to change the future. Make one possibility become a reality.

45 minutes ago, JakRoanin said:

For Arcann, the Scions (more likely Heskal) were probably baying for Arcann's death since birth. If not that, definitely hounding him about being the destroyer of their Civilization. That compounded by Valkorian's abuse, would make anyone snap. 

I love this! I imagine something similar. Years and years of the Scions proclaiming the certainty of Arcann's failures, saying how no matter how much he sacrifices, he won't succeed. His own actions are powerless, his ambitions will never be realized. It becomes very similar to Valkorion's constant disregard of him. Years of resentment hitting a breaking point. When Arcann usurps the throne, Heskal then claims how Valkorion's reign was prosperous but his reign is destined to not be. Then he snaps and kills the Scions. Self-fulfilling prophecy.

[JakRoanin]

Well, like I said, the Voss are in the middle. Look at it like this... A hurricane is certain to hit, can't stop that. You can organize an evacuation, you can fortify properties, and make a plan for cleanup. Or, you can do nothing and everything gets destroyed. Either way the storm will come.

[witchglove]

I agree with you both;

Spoiler

I also feel that Arcann is speaking about the hope his visions gave him for possible futures.

Like I said in an earlier post, I don't think someone who wasn't innately good at heart (as I believe Arcann is) would have interpreted and acted upon the visions by actively choosing a path of atonement. That alone shows agency, imo.

The Voss are extremely interesting to consider in juxtaposition to the Scions with regard to Arcann. Sana-Rae herself points out how extremely similar the Voss and the Scions are (in an old letter), yet the Scions have had such a damaging effect on Arcann (making him feel that nothing he did could ever change their perception of him as destined for failure - this is clearly why he kills them), while the Voss have had the exact opposite effect by healing him, opening his mind, and accepting him.

The Voss do consider their visions to be fact (see the "Voss" codex entry), and I think there is a lot of evidence that their system of rules is just as rigid as that of the Scions. The key difference is that Voss accept that while visions are infallible, interpreters can be fallible. The Scions never acknowledge that their own interpretation of visions might be flawed, as far as I recall. I find that interesting. I'm sure they did foresee that Arcann's reign would end in ruin. That came true in the most literal sense. But perhaps they didn't consider the nuances of that vision. I also feel that the Scions' interpretations would have been heavily influenced by Valkorion, whom they also saw as their infallible god (and we know what Valkorion thought of Arcann).

1 hour ago, cosmicchar said:

I find this contradictory. If you can control your own actions, but you can't control what happens, are you even in control? The point of agency is that you can control your actions, and your actions are powerful enough to change the future. Make one possibility become a reality.

I don't think there's a contradiction here, necessarily, but the extent to which your ability to control your own actions would have any meaningful impact would certainly vary greatly depending on the vision. For example:

If the vision only shows the coming of the hurricane, then you can choose to how to act based on that knowledge and there might be many different outcomes as a result (like @JakRoanin said in the example above).

But what if the vision shows the hurricane destroying the entire village, leaving no one alive? In that case you might still be able to choose to do something (like saving an important item, which in turn might impact some other future event - the butterfly effect might come into play here), but your ability to control events directly through your actions would be much lesser, since nothing you do could ever save the village.

Edited June 18, 2023 by witchglove

[JakRoanin]

33 minutes ago, witchglove said:

I agree with you both;

  Hide contents

I also feel that Arcann is speaking about the hope his visions gave him for possible futures.

Like I said in an earlier post, I don't think someone who wasn't innately good at heart (as I believe Arcann is) would have interpreted and acted upon the visions by actively choosing a path of atonement. That alone shows agency, imo.

I don't think there's a contradiction here, necessarily, but the extent to which your ability to control your own actions would have any meaningful impact would certainly vary greatly depending on the vision. For example:

If the vision only shows the coming of the hurricane, then you can choose to how to act based on that knowledge and there might be many different outcomes as a result (like @JakRoanin said in the example above).

But what if the vision shows the hurricane destroying the entire village, leaving no one alive? In that case you might still be able to choose to do something (like saving an important item, which in turn might impact some other future event - the butterfly effect might come into play here), but your ability to control events directly through your actions would be much lesser, since nothing you do could ever save the village.

Yes, that's exactly it. Even with the most advanced warnings there will be destruction from the storm, nothing can stop that. But you can control your actions, and that's what the Voss believe. For example, during each class story they give PC a glimpse of their futures, you can ask, "How do I stop it?" and they answer "You can't control what comes, only your actions when it does." The Scions don't believe that at all. The scions believe that everything is controlled by fate, choice literally does not exist. Arcann couldn't bear it, with his personality and own personal ambitions. I believe this to be a true example of his being an ISFP. But the Voss, specifically do not believe themselves infallible, the parable in the Shine of Judgement is an excellent example of the fundamental difference between the Voss and the Scions.

[cosmicchar]

I think I see your point. So the Interpreters considering themselves fallible, and Scions considering themselves infallible, allows choice to exist for Voss but not for Scions.

But if the vision foretells the city's total destruction, this still feels to me like your choices don't matter. What if you want to save the city? Sure, you have control of your actions by choosing to evacuate or not, but your choices don't hold enough power when you want them to. You can't save the city. Effectively making you powerless and lacking control. Your actions are still controlled by the higher power of fate. Which is what Arcann can't stand. He believed he could control his own future by doing everything in his power to eliminate opposition to his rule, even if it seemed impossible (the Scions say he will fall). Now, he believes he controls his own future by doing everything in his power to help people rebuild from all the destruction he's caused, even if it seems impossible (can he do it in his lifetime).

Brainstorming an idea here. The reason why Arcann is healed, and not damaged, by the Voss visions is because it's the first time he's seen his possible success, whereas the Scions only provided visions of his definite failures. This one opportunity to see the light inspires him to see other possibilities, rather than him violently dismissing it as just another attempt to break him.