You're so vain....

[Kirtastropohe]

There are times when Nerfs are needed, especially in response to buffs given through other patches. The changes to Mercs are an example of this. Some help was needed for the class, but the changes swung the pendulum too far the other away (indeed, it swung that way too far for ranged in general). Unfortunately, we're still waiting for the nerfs that will take Mercs from their place of near immortality. Instead of 5.0 bringing things closer to balance, a greater imbalance was created, and the effects magnified by GC.

 

While the devs did provide some insight into their approach as far as looking at their damage and healing metrics, the bottom line is that many of these nerfs, seemingly made in the name of things "overperforming" are causing more issues than they'll solve. In fact, the more glaring issues with class balance still remain and so now the Devs have created an environment where a majority will still be annoyed about the worst imbalances brought about by 5.0 and beyond, but will also be annoyed with the well-intentioned, but inappropriate nerfs to some of the classes.

 

It just destroys my desire to play.

Edited September 28, 2017 by Kirtastropohe

[curulz]

Oh come on. Self nerfing is ridiculous. I get it, nerfs suck and not everyone is on the same skill level, but telling the high end they need to remove gear for the game to be challenging is the stupidest thing I've heard yet on these forums. That's never how it's been done. Ever.

 

ridiculous or not, it is a viable option for those that feel the current content is not challenging. Is it easier for the few that need the added challenge to challenge themselves individually rather than expect the game to change to accommodate them, potentially to the determent of others.

Edited September 28, 2017 by curulz

[Sargrith]

No lol, this shows you don't know what you're talking about...it's because of Bolster, not healing.

 

Bolster does not magically put a shield on me if I don’t equip it. And yeah I don’t really care about bolster or SM I run them only when my guildies want to.

[TUXs]

ridiculous or not, it is a viable option for those that feel the current content is not challenging. Is it easier for the few that need the added challenge to challenge themselves individually rather than expect the game to change to accommodate them, potentially to the determent of others.

I have to agree. There's no need to pander to the upper .5%...I love that they play this game, but not when it hurts this game...these nerfs hurt everyone but them.

[Sargrith]

I guess we interpret it differently. I see that level 50+ are able to participate in it, with bolster, but by no means should it be a cake walk. Bolster just allows more players to participate, it doesnt mean things should be easier.

 

Now I disagree with you and agree with Tux. I do want SM ops able to be completed by nearly anyone on level with a reasonable level of effort. By effort I mean basic understanding of the op ether because members of your team explain the fights or you all have read guides and such. Many ops are part of the game’s story and as a person who loves story and RP I want it accessible to everyone.

 

But for those who want a challenge I want that too. I never felt better then beating HM EC back when 50 was the cap for this first time. It got me really addicted to tough fights in SWTOR. And that experince is well worth the effort.

[TUXs]

Bolster does not magically put a shield on me if I don’t equip it. And yeah I don’t really care about bolster or SM I run them only when my guildies want to.

Bolster gives you set stats, with or without a shield.

[Sargrith]

This all reminds me so much of CoH.....that game was doing great until it realized it needed to make new end game material and felt they had to nerf everything to do that......man that stunk and it killed the growth of the game forever more, but the game did drag on for years after until they finally shut it down. I miss that game it did some things so right, but nerfs.....I think it was 4 or 5 straight major nerf patches over nearly 2 years and that was it. People left and never came back....

 

I believe there is a time to nerf and a time to buff. I also believe you can not leave things unbalanced for too long or changing them wrecks the community. I further believe you nerf fast and once, you do not stretch the nerfs out of many months. I hope someone gets control of this game, gets the resources and foresight to make this the game it could be and that I have the patience to wait for that to happen.

[TUXs]

Now I disagree with you and agree with Tux. I do want SM ops able to be completed by nearly anyone on level with a reasonable level of effort. By effort I mean basic understanding of the op ether because members of your team explain the fights or you all have read guides and such. Many ops are part of the game’s story and as a person who loves story and RP I want it accessible to everyone.

 

But for those who want a challenge I want that too. I never felt better then beating HM EC back when 50 was the cap for this first time. It got me really addicted to tough fights in SWTOR. And that experince is well worth the effort.

We're not that far off then...I have stated this in the past, but let me post my "ideal" difficulty level:

SM = 80-99% should be able to complete it with 2-3 good players and 4-5 default attack clickers (basically how it is now).

HM = 50-60% should be able to complete it with 4-5 players carrying 3-4 others.

NiM = 5-15% should be able to complete it with 6-7 players doing 95% of the work and 1-2 trying

 

I honestly don't think we have anywhere near those numbers right now. I want a challenge still, but I want a game that more people have a chance to grow in...right now we have players who learned to play in a game where your default attack was all the "rotation" they ever needed. I want players to LEARN and GROW...but most of that growth comes from learning mechanics and a rotation, something they don't even need to learn until attempting a HM Op...but with these nerfs, far fewer will ever have the patience to grind out 300K credits, for repairs, on learning anything...they'd rather just stick to SM crap.

 

I don't want the game easier in anything else, but I do want a better learning curve for Ops...making us hit softer and heal for less is NOT what was needed...that hurts progression, not aids it. That reduces participation, not increases it. Those who were barely able to keep up in a HM Op prior to these nerfs are screwed now...and that's a HUGE chunk of players...HUGE!

Edited September 28, 2017 by TUXs

[SourOrange]

Who says story mode ops arent supposed to be challenging? Are you just making that **** up? I dont recall BW ever saying that.

 

Story mode operations exist purely to give people of all skill levels a chance to experience the content. That is their purpose. They aren't supposed to be super challenging and only completable by the best players in the game. That's what the harder modes are for.

 

Given that this game is based almost entirely around story, the game can't afford to reserve these things for only the most skilled- allowing all players to access all story based content is essential to playing the game.

[kodrac]

ridiculous or not, it is a viable option for those that feel the current content is not challenging. Is it easier for the few that need the added challenge to challenge themselves individually rather than expect the game to change to accommodate them, potentially to the determent of others.

 

OK then, what's worse? Nerfing classes or dumbing down the game? Those are the two polar opposite paths to combat power creep. In 4.0 the game was dumbed down, now in 5.x it's classes being nerfed. The exact same arguments are being used by the opposite factions. In 4.0 it was "why should the game be too hard for me? You can play naked if you need a challenge.". Now it's "why should my class be weaker? You can play naked if you want a challenge.". So which would you rather have? Either way someone is going to say it sucks and it's detrimental to the game. You could even say one causes the other. Depending on the order, one is a reaction to the other.

 

Pick your poison.

 

Personally, I don't care either way. I have to wonder why they pick now of all times to combat power creep. To me, they have bigger fish to fry. Although it might suggest there's a 6.0 in the forecast.

Edited September 28, 2017 by kodrac

[SourOrange]

-Revoke, posted in wrong thread.- Edited September 28, 2017 by SourOrange

[TUXs]

OK then, what's worse? Nerfing classes or dumbing down the game? Those are the two polar opposite paths to combat power creep. In 4.0 the game was dumbed down, now in 5.x it's classes being nerfed. The exact same arguments are being used by the opposite factions. In 4.0 it was "why should the game be too hard for me? You can play naked if you need a challenge.". Now it's "why should my class be weaker? You can play naked if you want a challenge.". So which would you rather have? Either way someone is going to say it sucks and it's detrimental to the game. You could even say one causes the other. Depending on the order, one is a reaction to the other.

 

Pick your poison.

 

Personally, I don't care either way. I have to wonder why they pick now of all times to combat power creep. To me, they have bigger fish to fry than power creep. Although it might suggest there's a 6.0 in the forecast.

The nerfs are coming WAYYYYY too slow...this should have been done and completed in under a month, not 2 freaking seasons and counting.

 

I guess I'm confused about the word "challenge" though...what isn't challenging for most people? SM content? Solo content? I believe Ops at SM are spot on. HM is too hard and NiM is laughably limited to a few. Uprisings seem well balanced...FPs do as well...so...who's having the trouble with what exactly? Where isn't there a challenging option at end game? Where is the end game content too easy for someone??

 

And agreed...now was NOT the time to address it...not at all...

[curulz]

OK then, what's worse? Nerfing classes or dumbing down the game? Those are the two polar opposite paths to combat power creep. In 4.0 the game was dumbed down, now in 5.x it's classes being nerfed. The exact same arguments are being used by the opposite factions. In 4.0 it was "why should the game be too hard for me? You can play naked if you need a challenge.". Now it's "why should my class be weaker? You can play naked if you want a challenge.". So which would you rather have? Either way someone is going to say it sucks and it's detrimental to the game. You could even say one causes the other. Depending on the order, one is a reaction to the other.

 

Pick your poison.

 

Personally, I don't care either way. I have to wonder why they pick now of all times to combat power creep. To me, they have bigger fish to fry than power creep.

 

I don't think its an either/or scenario. I also don't want them to dumb down the game any more, but I don't think excessive nerfs are needed either. Lets face it, BW does not do subtle well. Now perhaps the impact of these nerfs will not be too meaningful overall. But given their track record I doubt they'll actually hit the "target" they keep telling us about. And doing it in these different stages is just agonizing. Every week it seems folks are checking to see if Class X is going to be viable or on the chopping block

Edited September 28, 2017 by curulz

[kodrac]

The nerfs are coming WAYYYYY too slow...this should have been done and completed in under a month, not 2 freaking seasons and counting.

 

Agreed. I think that is a result of the GC/RNG debacle on 5.0's release. If they hadn't spent months making changes to Ops drops, adding currencies, etc They wasted too much time on being stubborn by tweaking a failed system that they got to the balance pass way too late. They've basically wasted a year. So now we're getting a balance pass within a failed system. Instead of saying "after 9 months of this system, it's not working out the way we had hoped so we're going to review it before balancing." You know, get step one right before starting step 2.

[casirabit]

While everyone can argue over the nerfs, the way they have handled everything the last few months this is not going to help them retain customers.

 

My simple question is can they afford to lose more customers? Some servers are already ghost town and even some of the more heavily populated ones are getting less and less and no amount of merging is going to help stop people from leaving.

 

Furthermore, not coming out and talking about what they are doing to the classes and ignoring the forum posts is not helping them, it is hurting them. I don't care if they want to bury their head in the sand and say problems don't exist or the customers don't know why we are doing this. Ignoring it is only hurting the game even to the point players that have been here since launch have had enough and they are leaving as well.

 

but if they want people to continue to leave then they can keep what they are doing, ignore them and no roadmap is going to fix the problems. They started out good but their communication has dropped back to what it was before and I am not one to fuss at them. I normally been in their corner but even I can't do that right now.

[olagatonjedi]

Now I disagree with you and agree with Tux. I do want SM ops able to be completed by nearly anyone on level with a reasonable level of effort. By effort I mean basic understanding of the op ether because members of your team explain the fights or you all have read guides and such. Many ops are part of the game’s story and as a person who loves story and RP I want it accessible to everyone.

 

But for those who want a challenge I want that too. I never felt better then beating HM EC back when 50 was the cap for this first time. It got me really addicted to tough fights in SWTOR. And that experince is well worth the effort.

SM currently can be completed by people who dont know the mechanics, and that gives them no incentive to learn the mechanics either. That is a problem. Story mode IS, and should be completed by a raid full of bolstered 50's, the operative word being should - if knowing/obeying mechanics consistently, say at least 70% of the time (arbitrary number).

[olagatonjedi]

Story mode operations exist purely to give people of all skill levels a chance to experience the content. That is their purpose. They aren't supposed to be super challenging and only completable by the best players in the game. That's what the harder modes are for.

 

Given that this game is based almost entirely around story, the game can't afford to reserve these things for only the most skilled- allowing all players to access all story based content is essential to playing the game.

Is this opinion, or confirmed by devs? If by devs word, please reference it.

[Ansultares]

...you probably think this nerf is about you, don't you.

But it is.

 

Well, maybe not about you.

Edited September 28, 2017 by Ansultares

[Holanos]

Aoe for the soldier is the best example for a dump nerf.....10m?

 

You have to fo in spotting range for an aoe attack?

 

This is so dump....

 

Compare it with the range of other classes....

Edited September 28, 2017 by Holanos