Class balance feedback: positive and negative aspects

[omaan]

I wont rely on parsley information since it's the worst source of information (you never know how skilled the guy who makes parsley numbers, how diligent he was while doing it, what gear he had etc). Iam relying on personal experience of playing warzones (thats 94% of all my time i spend in swtor)

 

NEGATIVE changes:

1)The nerf to carnage was a mistake, it is one of the rare examples when pvp suffers because of pve (mostly it is pve suffers due to pvp but this time it's not). Yes it was over performing in pve, YET in pvp it wasn't that good, carnage burst window is always stopped by tonnes of controls which swtor provides to all classes. After it was nerfed everyone just switched to rage and anni since these two specs over perform carnage because of their easier rotation and much less dps loss when controlled. Reverse the nerf or change the nature of ferocity by making it 3-stack ability so that even if carnage gets cc'ed it still could use it's burst. Otherwise, we will continue to see this spec dead.

 

2) The nerf to virulance sniper was too harsh. After the nerf i see no virulance snipers in warzones everyone switched to mm and engineering. Virulance sniper's dps is a joke, no sense to play it

 

3)The nerfs to both operative specs also was too harsh. While i understand that this class (which has self-healing abilities) must dps lower than those classes which are pure dps, with its current state not many are interested in playing it. It is healing lower than healing spec and dpsing much lower than pure dps specs... which makes it half-healer-half-dps spec. Even though concealment and lethality are in better state than carnage and virulance i would advise to NERF its survivability slightly and buff its dps SLIGHTLY.

 

4) the buff to hatred assassin was a good idea, but you buffed the wring thing. Hatred assassins had GOOD DOT dps even before you buffed it. Their problem was lack of single target dps, which made their dps fluff. You should nerf its dot dps as it was before and buff it's single target dps slightly. Buff assassinate or trash dps so this class would not be so fluff damage oriented. Currently, hatred assassin can make tonnes of damage but cant kill many... it's damage is just fluff compared to vengeance juggernaut

 

5) IO merc. I don't know much about it, however from what i saw on warzones it has problems with heat management and its dps much lower compared to arsenal merc. Nerf of t

 

his spec was too hard.

 

6)Buff to dot pt didn't save this class. It's still useless in both ranked and unranked. More adjustments needed, mostly to its rotation and utilities but not to dps.

 

 

POSITIVE changes

 

1) the nerf to arsenal merc's dps was a good idea. Even after the nerf this spec is performing well in both ranked and unranked. I often see arsenal mercs in top 1-3 dps scale on warzones. Well done.

 

2) the nerf to sorc healer also was a good idea. Compared to 4.0. it is obviously weaker, however those who are truly plays this class and knows what to do performs well by playing this spec. On the contrary, those who just faceroll their keyboards are healing low and always having problems with force management.

 

3) buff to dot dps sorc was a good idea. It performs well in pvp. HOWEVER, it requires a slight buff to it's single target dps since most of its damage is fluff. A slight buff to one of dot sorc's single dps ability would be nice.

 

GENERAL problems:

 

1)Apparently stats in pve and pvp MUST BE SEPARATED no mmo game managed to balance both pvp and pve. All changes must have a serious effect only for pvp whilst those who enter operations, flashpoints and other pve content must receive a considerable buff to stats as it happens in wow and some other mmo games.

 

2) Get rid of skank-tanks in pvp. These are ruining pvp due to it's both high dps and high defenses. Whereas skank-tanks can guard everyone on 50% damage they are also causing huge amount of dps. It's pretty ridiculous that swtor has such an over performing specs. skilled skank-tank and healer can carrie lowskilled group against fully skilled group... Make guard percentage dependable on how much tank has defense stat. Or do something else with it.

Edited September 24, 2017 by omaan

[Andryah]

GENERAL problems:

 

1)Apparently stats in pve and pvp MUST BE SEPARATED no mmo game managed to balance both pvp and pve. All changes must have a serious effect only for pvp whilst those who enter operations, flashpoints and other pve content must receive a considerable buff to stats as it happens in wow and some other mmo games.

 

 

Stats are fine.. it is the actual skills and how they work that must be separated in my view. But completely separate skills is a whole lot of extra work that this studio does not have enough room on their plate for at this time.

 

A good case could be made to make actual stats irrelevant in PvP... but it will always result in severe US vs THEM discussion behaviors between players because some players love the idea and others hate the idea and want a gear crutch to help carry them through a lack of skills, teamwork, and tactics.

Edited September 24, 2017 by Andryah

[Totemdancer]

I wont rely on parsley information since it's the worst source of information (you never know how skilled the guy who makes parsley numbers, how diligent he was while doing it, what gear he had etc). Iam relying on personal experience of playing warzones (thats 94% of all my time i spend in swtor)

 

NEGATIVE changes:

1)The nerf to carnage was a mistake, it is one of the rare examples when pvp suffers because of pve (mostly it is pve suffers due to pvp but this time it's not). Yes it was over performing in pve, YET in pvp it wasn't that good, carnage burst window is always stopped by tonnes of controls which swtor provides to all classes. After it was nerfed everyone just switched to rage and anni since these two specs over perform carnage because of their easier rotation and much less dps loss when controlled. Reverse the nerf or change the nature of ferocity by making it 3-stack ability so that even if carnage gets cc'ed it still could use it's burst. Otherwise, we will continue to see this spec dead.

 

2) The nerf to virulance sniper was too harsh. After the nerf i see no virulance snipers in warzones everyone switched to mm and engineering. Virulance sniper's dps is a joke, no sense to play it

 

3)The nerfs to both operative specs also was too harsh. While i understand that this class (which has self-healing abilities) must dps lower than those classes which are pure dps, with its current state not many are interested in playing it. It is healing lower than healing spec and dpsing much lower than pure dps specs... which makes it half-healer-half-dps spec. Even though concealment and lethality are in better state than carnage and virulance i would advise to NERF its survivability slightly and buff its dps SLIGHTLY.

 

4) the buff to hatred assassin was a good idea, but you buffed the wring thing. Hatred assassins had GOOD DOT dps even before you buffed it. Their problem was lack of single target dps, which made their dps fluff. You should nerf its dot dps as it was before and buff it's single target dps slightly. Buff assassinate or trash dps so this class would not be so fluff damage oriented. Currently, hatred assassin can make tonnes of damage but cant kill many... it's damage is just fluff compared to vengeance juggernaut

 

5) IO merc. I don't know much about it, however from what i saw on warzones it has problems with heat management and its dps much lower compared to arsenal merc. Nerf of t

 

his spec was too hard.

 

6)Buff to dot pt didn't save this class. It's still useless in both ranked and unranked. More adjustments needed, mostly to its rotation and utilities but not to dps.

 

 

POSITIVE changes

 

1) the nerf to arsenal merc's dps was a good idea. Even after the nerf this spec is performing well in both ranked and unranked. I often see arsenal mercs in top 1-3 dps scale on warzones. Well done.

 

2) the nerf to sorc healer also was a good idea. Compared to 4.0. it is obviously weaker, however those who are truly plays this class and knows what to do performs well by playing this spec. On the contrary, those who just faceroll their keyboards are healing low and always having problems with force management.

 

3) buff to dot dps sorc was a good idea. It performs well in pvp. HOWEVER, it requires a slight buff to it's single target dps since most of its damage is fluff. A slight buff to one of dot sorc's single dps ability would be nice.

 

GENERAL problems:

 

1)Apparently stats in pve and pvp MUST BE SEPARATED no mmo game managed to balance both pvp and pve. All changes must have a serious effect only for pvp whilst those who enter operations, flashpoints and other pve content must receive a considerable buff to stats as it happens in wow and some other mmo games.

 

2) Get rid of skank-tanks in pvp. These are ruining pvp due to it's both high dps and high defenses. Whereas skank-tanks can guard everyone on 50% damage they are also causing huge amount of dps. It's pretty ridiculous that swtor has such an over performing specs. skilled skank-tank and healer can carrie lowskilled group against fully skilled group... Make guard percentage dependable on how much tank has defense stat. Or do something else with it.

 

And people wonder why pvpers get blamed for nerfs, posts like this don't help. All you seem to be talking about is how they help pvp and you've given no consideration how they affect pve people.

No real pvpers were advocating nerfing Mercs, everyone was saying that it was the defences that were the problem. But you're saying how it was a good idea. Do you want pve people to hate pvpers even more and blame them for affecting their game play.

[omaan]

And people wonder why pvpers get blamed for nerfs, posts like this don't help. All you seem to be talking about is how they help pvp and you've given no consideration how they affect pve people.

No real pvpers were advocating nerfing Mercs, everyone was saying that it was the defences that were the problem. But you're saying how it was a good idea. Do you want pve people to hate pvpers even more and blame them for affecting their game play.

 

i already wrote in my message that pve and pvp dps and other stats must be SEPARATED. There is no way these two different spheres of the game can be balanced without causing problems to each other. My thread is about pure pvp class balance. I didnt took pve in any consideration AT ALL. Pve must get special bolster which gives player huge stats while they are running pve content,thats all. In this case pve wont suffer, and pve players always will have enough healing and dps for running their content.

[omaan]

Stats are fine.. it is the actual skills and how they work that must be separated in my view. But completely separate skills is a whole lot of extra work that this studio does not have enough room on their plate for at this time.

 

A good case could be made to make actual stats irrelevant in PvP... but it will always result in severe US vs THEM discussion behaviors between players because some players love the idea and others hate the idea and want a gear crutch to help carry them through a lack of skills, teamwork, and tactics.

 

separating skills will cause problems. Many are doing pve and pvp at the same time, iam sure they will find using different skills and abilities for pve and pvp on the same character quite frustrating. Learning pvp and then learning pve, changing/adding key bindings every time you switch from pvp to pve and vise versa will take much time. And you are right about bioware not having enough manpower to provide it. In addition to this, by separating skills they will also have to separate bonus sets of our gear (since some of them will be irrelevant because of new skills in pve compared to old in pvp) and it will cause separation of pvp and pve gear as it was before 5.0. which is obviously not what bioware wants.

[Holanos]

"Balancing" ALWAYS goes against PVE and is ALWAYS startet due to PVP whines and tears....

 

Why changing tactics and strategy when a simple whine and crying in the forums is more than enough to reach the goal of killing a class that can do something 0.00034 % better than any other class?

And i'm not talking about SWTOR alone,this is a global and major problem in EVERY SINGLE MMOG......

 

THIS is the REAL annoy about "balancing"....

Edited September 24, 2017 by Holanos

[Totemdancer]

"Balancing" ALWAYS goes against PVE and is ALWAYS startet due to PVP whines and tears....

 

Why changing tactics and strategy when a simple whine and crying in the forums is more than enough to reach the goal of killing a class that can do something 0.00034 % better than any other class?

And i'm not talking about SWTOR alone,this is a global and major problem in EVERY SINGLE MMOG......

 

THIS is the REAL annoy about "balancing"....

 

That is a load of rubbish. Balance is done around pve and parsing on pve dummies. Bioware do not use pvp metrics to balance, they use internal data targets they already have set. It's when a class exceeds or doesn't reach those targets that they adjust them. Even when they balance, they don't balance on the whole package, they balance dps targets only and they don't take into consideration utilities when they do this or survivability.

By their own admission they do not balance classes against each other. They have a dps target and then they do pve dummy parsing and nerf/buff to get the out put to match their target. That is how they balance, that is why it's always out because their method is flawed.

[Holanos]

That is a load of rubbish. Balance is done around pve and parsing on pve dummies. Bioware do not use pvp metrics to balance, they use internal data targets they already have set. It's when a class exceeds or doesn't reach those targets that they adjust them. Even when they balance, they don't balance on the whole package, they balance dps targets only and they don't take into consideration utilities when they do this or survivability.

By their own admission they do not balance classes against each other. They have a dps target and then they do pve dummy parsing and nerf/buff to get the out put to match their target. That is how they balance, that is why it's always out because their method is flawed.

 

History of "balancing" in EVERY single mmog proves you're wrong

 

It's always the whining of PVP that starts something...NO PVE player(besdide those progress nerds that are a(thank god) a minority in every game) has EVER protestet against "a class making too much damage"....if you say this i can't take you serious in neither way....

These "It's too easy" guys are not taken serious by "the normal player(whatever that is)" neither.

 

What lasts is just the PVP ignited nerf because "this class makes 0.677658997668% more damage than mine so it's uber so it has to be nerfed.....if you like this fact or not......

 

 

Bottom line.....

Edited September 24, 2017 by Holanos

[Totemdancer]

History of "balancing" in EVERY single mmog proves you're wrong

 

It's always the whining of PVP that starts something...NO PVE player(besdide those progress nerds that are a(thank god) a minority in every game) has EVER protestet against "a class making too much damage"....if you say this i can't take you serious in neither way....

These "It's too easy" guys are not taken serious by "the normal player(whatever that is)" neither.

 

What lasts is just the PVP ignitet nerf because "this class makes 0.677658997668% more damage than mine so it's uber so it has to be nerfed.....if you like this fact or not......

 

Bottom line.....

 

 

Supposition.

 

Just because some pvpers complain about "x", doesn't mean they balanced "y" because of it.

 

I think you need to go back and read all of the posts and commments this year that the Devs have said about balancing. Not one of them has said it's because of pvp. If anything they've insinuated that balancing was done because people were getting through content too easy and too fast.

[Holanos]

Supposition.

 

Just because some pvpers complain about "x", doesn't mean they balanced "y" because of it.

 

I think you need to go back and read all of the posts and commments this year that the Devs have said about balancing. Not one of them has said it's because of pvp. If anything they've insinuated that balancing was done because people were getting through content too easy and too fast.

 

All those theories about "dummies" are just that....theories.....

It's much easier...BW just goes live and waits for the whining and AFTER the whine they test.....

 

So the whiner(PVP) starts the test that also affected the PVE player who nerver asked for it.

 

That's the bitter truth even if you do not or want not to see it...

Edited September 24, 2017 by Holanos

[omaan]

"Balancing" ALWAYS goes against PVE and is ALWAYS startet due to PVP whines and tears....

 

Why changing tactics and strategy when a simple whine and crying in the forums is more than enough to reach the goal of killing a class that can do something 0.00034 % better than any other class?

And i'm not talking about SWTOR alone,this is a global and major problem in EVERY SINGLE MMOG......

 

THIS is the REAL annoy about "balancing"....

 

Yeah? Tell it to carnage, anni and lethality which were nerfed because they outperformed in pve. Now pvp players suffer because of it because these three specs werent over performing in pvp. Both pvp and pve players are suffering because of it. Thats why we need stats separation. In mmo games where stats were separated there was no problems about balancing. In wow when a player joins battleground their dps is being adjusted for pvp, and when he goes out stats also changing for pve purposes. And no one complaints there about pve and pvp wars (yet they have tonnes of other problems like stupid class balance). We need pvp and pve separations, thats it. The closest and the cheapest way is different stats

[supertimtaf]

That is a load of rubbish. Balance is done around pve and parsing on pve dummies. Bioware do not use pvp metrics to balance, they use internal data targets they already have set. It's when a class exceeds or doesn't reach those targets that they adjust them. Even when they balance, they don't balance on the whole package, they balance dps targets only and they don't take into consideration utilities when they do this or survivability.

By their own admission they do not balance classes against each other. They have a dps target and then they do pve dummy parsing and nerf/buff to get the out put to match their target. That is how they balance, that is why it's always out because their method is flawed.

 

Well, the problem is that they don't balance class around content. They have their value for "target dps", sadly, those value don't correspond/don't take into consideration :

 

-Dps needed for certain boss (Class needs to achieve this dps otherwise they'll just meet an Enrage and wipe)

-Survivability granted by defensives (The whole game resolves around being able to use defensive ability. You can't dps if you're trying to survive or if you're dead. Some class -like the current merc- will bypass this because of broken defensive ability, allowing them to dps freely at almost any given moment)

-impact on other class (Madness Sorcerer received a buff to its Deathmark, making them deal more damage. Sad thing, the Deathmark applies also to any DoT given by any sorcerer/assassin, which can mess your dps)

[omaan]

All those theories about "dummies" are just that....theories.....

It's much easier...BW just goes live and waits for the whining and AFTER the whine they test.....

 

So the whiner(PVP) starts the test that also affected the PVE player who nerver asked for it.

 

That's the bitter truth even if you do not or want not to see it...

 

Your logic isnt working because no one was whining about carnage, anni and lethality. These three specs (except anni) weren't very good in pvp, yet they WERE NERFED. On the other side rage mara got buffed because it was bad in pve and many pve players were whining about it even though in pvp it didn't required any changes. ToteDancer is correct about how bioware balancing it.

[Holanos]

Yeah? Tell it to carnage, anni and lethality which were nerfed because they outperformed in pve. Now pvp players suffer because of it because these three specs werent over performing in pvp. Both pvp and pve players are suffering because of it. Thats why we need stats separation. In mmo games where stats were separated there was no problems about balancing. In wow when a player joins battleground their dps is being adjusted for pvp, and when he goes out stats also changing for pve purposes. And no one complaints there about pve and pvp wars (yet they have tonnes of other problems like stupid class balance). We need pvp and pve separations, thats it. The closest and the cheapest way is different stats

 

This discussion exists since mmog exists....

 

The only solution is simple : keep your butterfingers away from the nerfbutton and let every char just as it was at start....

 

If you nerf a single class you start a myriad of re-nerf and re-re-nerfs ad it NEVER ends....just don't listen to the whiners....

 

PVP is (beside what PVP players think) not the centre of the world.....

 

Bottom line......

Edited September 24, 2017 by Holanos

[DarthSealth]

I'll say it once and I won't say it again they need to do class balancing around PvP and bolster PvE content so each class performs to the standard of the content whether that be SM, HM and NM.

 

Classes are coming out under tested and "over powered".

This leads to nerfing, which ends up with your customers being unhappy.

Instead you should be shooting towards classes being "under powered" and then figure out how you need to buff them which makes the customers happy!

Two different approaches to the same problem but how you achieve it makes a world of difference.

[Totemdancer]

Well, the problem is that they don't balance class around content. They have their value for "target dps", sadly, those value don't correspond/don't take into consideration :

 

-Dps needed for certain boss (Class needs to achieve this dps otherwise they'll just meet an Enrage and wipe)

-Survivability granted by defensives (The whole game resolves around being able to use defensive ability. You can't dps if you're trying to survive or if you're dead. Some class -like the current merc- will bypass this because of broken defensive ability, allowing them to dps freely at almost any given moment)

-impact on other class (Madness Sorcerer received a buff to its Deathmark, making them deal more damage. Sad thing, the Deathmark applies also to any DoT given by any sorcerer/assassin, which can mess your dps)

 

I completely agree. I personally think the system needs to be revisited so that balancing is done as a whole process, not individual processes. It should include the target dps for bosses, it should include the optimal utility choices for those bosses, it should include the DC and survivability. The testing should then be done in a real environment with top tier players for a base line and then mid tier players to see how they handle it, Then the optimal balance for player performance will be somewhere in between. Once that is complete they should look at how those classes interact with each other in both reg and ranked pvp and then tweak the balance some more. Once they think they've got it right, it should be put on the public test server and publically announced so that players can test it and give them live feed back and internal data to look at. Only when that has been done, should the changes go live. If they did it this way, they would only ever need to do a major balance when a new expansion or major content is added, any other changes would be very small and have minor impact.

[Storm-Cutter]

 

2) The nerf to virulance sniper was too harsh. After the nerf i see no virulance snipers in warzones everyone switched to mm and engineering. Virulance sniper's dps is a joke, no sense to play it

.

 

MM and Engi possibly needed dialling down. - but it's too difficult for BW to just turn one spec down, so the whole class gets clobbered. - even though each class has unique abilities, which they could have reduced by a few percentage points without upsetting the balance with the other two specs. SMH.

 

I'm probably not a good enough player to notice a DPS drop - since its highly situational - but I still play virulence. - tho' with the huge numbers of heals and tanks, most DPS classes are just pumping out huge fluff damage most of the time ( in WZ)

Edited September 25, 2017 by Storm-Cutter

[Totemdancer]

MM and Engi possibly needed dialling down. - but it's too difficult for BW to just turn one spec down, so the whole class gets clobbered. - even though each class has unique abilities, which they could have reduced by a few percentage points without upsetting the balance with the other two specs. SMH.

 

I'm probably not a good enough player to notice a DPS drop - since its highly situational - but I still play virulence. - tho' with the huge numbers of heals and tanks, most DPS classes are just pumping out huge fluff damage most of the time ( in WZ)

 

Yes, balancing individual specs seems to be beyond them. They nearly always use the approach of nerfing the whole class even if it destroys one spec.

But they don't even nerf the right things when they do it. Every nerf is based on their holy grail of dps dummy parsing. Nerfing the dps for engineering and Mercs wasn't needed. The only nerfing that was needed was to reduce the spamability of plasma probe and survivability. It's the same with the Mercs over the top survivability. They were only able to put out that much damage because they wouldn't die. If they'd dialled that back abit, the dps wouldn't have exceeded the targets in the live game.

Dps sorcerers and PTs are still the worst performing classes in the game. Lighting Sorcs even had their survivability nerfed with no dps buff at all because healing sorcerers were over performing. So instead of just adjusting that specs dedicated healing abilities, they nerfed the whole classes. That only made Lightning worse, at least they buffed madness. My partner actually unsubbed over the Lightning Sorc situation after giving them 8 months to fix the problem. It was just the last straw for her after all the other problems that is 5.0-5.4

Edited September 25, 2017 by Totemdancer

[Tsillah]

Class balance in this game is a myth. It's not possible and it will never happen.

 

PvE was getting way too easy with the 248 gear rating being added without adding difficulty to the game. The same ops that dropped 230 gear in 5.0 now drops 236 but the game was still as easy as it was in 5.0. So BW's solution is to nerf the classes all around.

 

Not very elegant, but it's a solution. Although I do believe a lot of class changes are made because of PvP whiners who can't play their class, I also believe the current nerfs are there simply because the gear we're getting is too good compared to the content.

 

And really, in PvP it's all about the perceived flavour of the month. Even if a class is not op, as long as people believe it is, they will cry about it. It's no surprise really. In PvP it's all about winning and people go to great lengths to win. It includes name calling and types of griefing and all is fair. So why not whine about classes that you have a hard time with to see if you can get them nerfed? Of course not every pvp'er is like that but you know these people are out there.

 

It's all part of the game for them.

 

The game just reached a point in PvE where the content was just too easy compared to the gear we have. So they could make the content harder or make the players less powerful. Well, what is the cheapest option?

[Totemdancer]

Class balance in this game is a myth. It's not possible and it will never happen.

 

PvE was getting way too easy with the 248 gear rating being added without adding difficulty to the game. The same ops that dropped 230 gear in 5.0 now drops 236 but the game was still as easy as it was in 5.0. So BW's solution is to nerf the classes all around.

 

Not very elegant, but it's a solution. Although I do believe a lot of class changes are made because of PvP whiners who can't play their class, I also believe the current nerfs are there simply because the gear we're getting is too good compared to the content.

 

And really, in PvP it's all about the perceived flavour of the month. Even if a class is not op, as long as people believe it is, they will cry about it. It's no surprise really. In PvP it's all about winning and people go to great lengths to win. It includes name calling and types of griefing and all is fair. So why not whine about classes that you have a hard time with to see if you can get them nerfed? Of course not every pvp'er is like that but you know these people are out there.

 

It's all part of the game for them.

 

The game just reached a point in PvE where the content was just too easy compared to the gear we have. So they could make the content harder or make the players less powerful. Well, what is the cheapest option?

 

I really hope Bioware answer my thread asking them to explain why, when and how they decide to balance classes so that we can move past the idea that it's pvpers fault.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=933047

Bioware have already stated many times it's not, but the perception persists. So I've asked them to make it black and white. As well as including how they do it. I think if all the info is in one post, then it will be easier for people to understand their reasons. But I will also accept it if they say it is because of pvp.

I just think we deserve an answer so that this blame game stops because it only divides us on the topic when we argue whose fault it is, instead of letting Bioware know why people are unhappy.

Edited September 25, 2017 by Totemdancer

[Tsillah]

I really hope Bioware answer my thread asking them to explain why, when and how they decide to balance classes so that we can move past the idea that it's pvpers fault.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=933047

Bioware have already stated many times it's not, but the perception persists. So I've asked them to make it black and white. As well as including how they do it. I think if all the info is in one post, then it will be easier for people to understand their reasons. But I will also accept it if they say it is because of pvp.

I just think we deserve an answer so that this blame game stops because it only divides us on the topic when we argue whose fault it is, instead of letting Bioware know why people are unhappy.

Well, as I said, in this case it's definitely not a PvP thing. I will say that this round of balancing makes more sense than previous ones. The only really bad thing for players is that the balances, which are nerfs mostly, come in waves so that it puts the earlier balanced classes at a temporary disadvantage. This balancing doesn't really do much for overal class balance in PvP though. It seems to me that the DPS and heal targets are based around boss fights more than anything.

 

The people who know how to PvP in depth will still own the warzones as before. That won't change. Player skill is still king in the end. The problem is that the game is not able to separate the more avid PvP'ers from the casual PvP'ers and this is the main problem in my view.

 

Also the fact that PvP and PvE are entirely different types of gameplay should tell game makers to stop trying to use one skill set for all. Enemies in PvP do not have the hit points of a boss. Just that alone makes a huge difference. Also healing is a different ball game. The fact that healing output is already reduced in PvP per definition tells you it's not the same.

 

I'm not a big fan of GW2 but at least they have separated the two (PvE and PvP) quite well. I also think SWTOR would benefit greatly from a PvE/PvP toggle for gear and skills/utilities.

[Holanos]

Sry but in my eyes there is no "too easy" in PVE....

 

What's wrong about chilling in PVE a couple of hours afterwork?

 

Why is it "normal" for some people that beeing stressed by a game after beeing stressed in the job is the only way to go?

 

I don't get it....bottom line is this is a GAME....and beside the few progressler that are enjoying their(in my eyes) really nerdy behaviour most of the PVE players have choosen to be a PVE player.....it's no job for them just fun.

Most of them - as i said- are just after a little fun afterwork and not after an equal stresslevel they have at work.

 

I KNOW and see that this kind of "fun" is not for the ordinary "I'M "XXXkillyouallXXX" I HAVE TO KILL AS MANY OTHER PLAYERS AS FAST AS I CAN BECAUSE I'M AWESOME AND STRESS IS FUN" PVP kind of player(and we all know they exist).

 

Those players are lost for arguments,they just see pvp as the meaning of life,but all others...please accept that there are people out there that just want to chill and are getting annoyed by every PVP caused nerf that affects their gameplay just because some people think that "all is too easy"....

 

It's not and never will be.....

[hallucigenocide]

Sry but in my eyes there is no "too easy" in PVE....

 

What's wrong about chilling in PVE a couple of hours afterwork?

 

Why is it "normal" for some people that beeing stressed by a game after beeing stressed in the job is the only way to go?

 

I don't get it....bottom line is this is a GAME....and beside the few progressler that are enjoying their(in my eyes) really nerdy behaviour most of the PVE players have choosen to be a PVE player.....it's no job for them just fun.

Most of them - as i said- are just after a little fun afterwork and not after an equal stresslevel they have at work.

 

I KNOW and see that this kind of "fun" is not for the ordinary "I'M "XXXkillyouallXXX" I HAVE TO KILL AS MANY OTHER PLAYERS AS FAST AS I CAN BECAUSE I'M AWESOME AND STRESS IS FUN" PVP kind of player(and we all know they exist).

 

Those players are lost for arguments,they just see pvp as the meaning of life,but all others...please accept that there are people out there that just want to chill and are getting annoyed by every PVP caused nerf that affects their gameplay just because some people think that "all is too easy"....

 

It's not and never will be.....

 

how exactly is a player such as yourself impacted by balancing if you don't care about doing any of the "hard" stuff?

[omaan]

This discussion exists since mmog exists....

 

The only solution is simple : keep your butterfingers away from the nerfbutton and let every char just as it was at start....

 

If you nerf a single class you start a myriad of re-nerf and re-re-nerfs ad it NEVER ends....just don't listen to the whiners....

 

PVP is (beside what PVP players think) not the centre of the world.....

 

Bottom line......

 

thats not the point. pvp often needs class balancing, whilst pve is mostly static and just needs high numbers. Thats why they need to separate pve and pvp stats and balance around pvp. In this case pve wont get any negative influence and pvp will have it's adjustments. pvp is more difficult, you can't just buff everything and everyone will be happy..it works only for pve

[omaan]

how exactly is a player such as yourself impacted by balancing if you don't care about doing any of the "hard" stuff?

 

Indeed he contradicts himself. If pve players who are just chilling off from their work they should not care about class balance so much. Just chill as he said and be quite. If pve players are caring so much about class balancing and getting so mad about it,they are the same as pvp players "stresfull and wanting to kill eveything they see (just in pve though)". Besides, this guy thinks that pvp is stresfull and shows like it is something negative. He thinks that if pvp is stresfull for him then it is stresfull for everyone lol. For example for me it's not stresfull.