Thanks for Theron Shan. <3 <3 <3 This is a love thread, haters make your own lol.

[JakRoanin]

Well, something we must consider is that after we smash Valky the first time, Jace sends a letter to PC and even with a Peacekeeper he views this powerful Alliance as a potential threat to the Republic. To paraphrase, he basically says if you're nice to us we can co-exist, but I'm watching. Jace doesn't like the Independent Alliance because he's terrified that it will come after the Republic, {or his ideal of it} and because Theron was an architect of it, [with a Sith no-less] his son becomes a potential threat. For someone like Jace this is an almost unbearable situation that does unfortunately poke at some very real emotional damage. 

I am firmly of the belief Satele did the right thing by not letting Theron go to his father, but Jace is a sad character. He's the equal and opposite of Malgus. He's tragic, and I truly believe Theron knows it.

PS. I would never be in the same room with him in RL. Just sayin'.

[JenaSalton]

Completely agree that the whole thing should have been built up better. Most of my characters and me as the player didn't care the slightest bit about Malcolm or Acina. And while all my main cast of characters sided with the Republic, nearly all of then would have preferred the option to tell Malcolm and Acina to both get lost no one gets a superweapon.

At which point, Malcolm could look at Imp characters and think its just a ploy (and Acina do the same with Pub characters), so the story progresses the same way more or less, but without the PC being the one who basically escalates the situation (unless of course, that's what you want your character to do).

[eabevella]

25 minutes ago, cannibithobbal said:

100% agreed with all this, the fact we saw barely any Malcolm prior to Iokath (as stated he shows up a few brief times on pub side but barely talks) really hurts the emotional impact of the imperial Iokath story.  (It also means that those of us who choose republic NEVER see any more emotional interaction between Theron and Malcolm than "Theron, you're looking good, son, combat suits you" "and small talk doesn't.") 

Watching the imperial scene I didn't feel anything for Malcolm and only felt anything for Theron because of really good voice acting.  But even feeling loads for Theron there was no build up beforehand to explain why any of it was happening.  And the fact Theron was so willing to shoot at his own father right before being gutted that he died did not sit right with me, it felt so.... off.  Whereas, if there was established on screen backstory between them where we saw Malcolm and Theron's existing conflict and the reason for it and felt more of an actual emotional connection between them, and something that would explain why Theron would do that, it would have been a lot better.  I still would never choose it, of course, but, it would be better for the people who do!

Malcom could be this great Republic character who could go full dark side or turning back to the light side depending on our decision and action regardless of our faction, and a great build up for the Traitor arc. But *sigh*

Guess that's why fanfiction exists lol

[JenaSalton]

13 minutes ago, eabevella said:

Malcom could be this great Republic character who could go full dark side or turning back to the light side depending on our decision and action regardless of our faction, and a great build up for the Traitor arc. But *sigh*

Guess that's why fanfiction exists lol

Seriously! I love the game for what it is, but I love it even more for being a solid starting point to the numerous fics and headcanons that live in my head (and a few that have even managed to escape my head and make it to a Google doc on my computer!)

[cannibithobbal]

17 minutes ago, JenaSalton said:

Completely agree that the whole thing should have been built up better. Most of my characters and me as the player didn't care the slightest bit about Malcolm or Acina. And while all my main cast of characters sided with the Republic, nearly all of then would have preferred the option to tell Malcolm and Acina to both get lost no one gets a superweapon.

At which point, Malcolm could look at Imp characters and think its just a ploy (and Acina do the same with Pub characters), so the story progresses the same way more or less, but without the PC being the one who basically escalates the situation (unless of course, that's what you want your character to do).

Oh man, it would have been amazing story-wise if there was actually the third option to not choose a side and that the starting faction of your character would impact which side didn't trust you and went after the superweapon if you chose that.  I would definitely choose that kind of thing on at least one character, I like the idea of them trying to do the right thing and it still goes wrong anyway, would be a really interesting tragic alt.

 

[eabevella]

33 minutes ago, JenaSalton said:

Completely agree that the whole thing should have been built up better. Most of my characters and me as the player didn't care the slightest bit about Malcolm or Acina. And while all my main cast of characters sided with the Republic, nearly all of then would have preferred the option to tell Malcolm and Acina to both get lost no one gets a superweapon.

At which point, Malcolm could look at Imp characters and think its just a ploy (and Acina do the same with Pub characters), so the story progresses the same way more or less, but without the PC being the one who basically escalates the situation (unless of course, that's what you want your character to do).

And our characters have good reason to believe both of them are up to no good (well, they are both trying to steal from us).

I love me a good Mexican standoff.

[cannibithobbal]

I am just Imagining now how gut-wrenching the scene would be if the former imperial PC refused to choose a side but Malcolm assumed they were secretly plotting with the empire, such that Theron would then have to face his father to stop him taking the superweapon because he knows it's too dangerous for anyone to have, but Malcolm just accuses Theron of siding with the empire and Theron tries to tell him that he hasn't sided with the empire at all, but that the republic can't have the superweapon either.  But Malcolm refuses to relent, and then the rest of the scene plays out essentially the same. 😥

edit because just thinking: Acina's death would also be more tragic too, with her accusing the former republic PC of being duplicitous and betraying their former alliance and not even a super honest jedi could convince her they aren't secretly plotting and can't save her from herself and her own paranoia. 

man, this really should have been a story option.  more emotional gut-punching = more better

Edited June 6, 2023 by cannibithobbal

[eabevella]

21 minutes ago, cannibithobbal said:

I am just Imagining now how gut-wrenching the scene would be if the former imperial PC refused to choose a side but Malcolm assumed they were secretly plotting with the empire, such that Theron would then have to face his father to stop him taking the superweapon because he knows it's too dangerous for anyone to have, but Malcolm just accuses Theron of siding with the empire and Theron tries to tell him that he hasn't sided with the empire at all, but that the republic can't have the superweapon either.  But Malcolm refuses to relent, and then the rest of the scene plays out essentially the same. 😥

edit because just thinking: Acina's death would also be more tragic too, with her accusing the former republic PC of being duplicitous and betraying their former alliance and not even a super honest jedi could convince her they aren't secretly plotting and can't save her from herself and her own paranoia. 

man, this really should have been a story option.  more emotional gut-punching = more better

Please accept my trophy reaction because THIS would hurt so much but it would be so good.

 

[cannibithobbal]

I can't lie, it would hurt in all the right kind of ways for me, I would probably choose it on every character.

[JenaSalton]

Exactly. Then you could have added drama of the leader of your faction arguing with the PC, telling you not to trust the opposing leader and then after PC answers (either agreeing they can't be trusted, saying that it'll be okay, or some other answer) Theron runs in saying that Malcolm/Acina is making a push for the weapon. 

So PC and their faction's leader makes a concentrates push for the weapon and maybe outside the room meets with Elara/Quinn and have the opportunity to convince them that they really don't want anyone to have the weapon and that if anyone had it would be dangerous for the Republic/Empire (so players have the opportunity to ensure the leader they want to live but still show they tried to not escalate things).

With all PC, Malcolm, and Acina there if you don't convince whoever is outside the opposing faction leader takes the throne before you can stop them. If you did convince the opposing faction, while you're trying to convince the leader of your faction sneaks around and takes the throne.

And either way, someone dies and if it's Malcolm Theron gets to be completely devastated and know it was definitely Malcolm's choices that led him there.

[cannibithobbal]

1 minute ago, JenaSalton said:

and if it's Malcolm Theron gets to be completely devastated and know it was definitely Malcolm's choices that led him there.

That right there is why this version of Malcolm dying I would play through but the siding with the empire one I wouldn't.  Theron actually turning against his own father (even for love) only to turn around and show he actually cared and is devastated he's dead just does not sit right with me and never really will, but Theron desperately trying to convince his father he HASN'T turned against him but still failing to stop Malcolm's obsession with needing the republic to win?  Yeah, yeah that would hurt me in the right kind of way.

[eabevella]

1 minute ago, cannibithobbal said:

I can't lie, it would hurt in all the right kind of ways for me, I would probably choose it on every character.

This would make a neutral option on Iokath even better: I want to stay neutral and I would accept the consequence of that decision.

This plus the traitor arc will better convinces us that staying neutral is not a long term option so picking a side before Onslaught won't feel so forced.

[eabevella]

8 minutes ago, JenaSalton said:

Exactly. Then you could have added drama of the leader of your faction arguing with the PC, telling you not to trust the opposing leader and then after PC answers (either agreeing they can't be trusted, saying that it'll be okay, or some other answer) Theron runs in saying that Malcolm/Acina is making a push for the weapon. 

So PC and their faction's leader makes a concentrates push for the weapon and maybe outside the room meets with Elara/Quinn and have the opportunity to convince them that they really don't want anyone to have the weapon and that if anyone had it would be dangerous for the Republic/Empire (so players have the opportunity to ensure the leader they want to live but still show they tried to not escalate things).

With all PC, Malcolm, and Acina there if you don't convince whoever is outside the opposing faction leader takes the throne before you can stop them. If you did convince the opposing faction, while you're trying to convince the leader of your faction sneaks around and takes the throne.

And either way, someone dies and if it's Malcolm Theron gets to be completely devastated and know it was definitely Malcolm's choices that led him there.

This reminds me of the good ol' dialogue tree with Jadus where we could get 3 different outcomes depending on what we chose to say... if only there's such variety when it's about a major decision like picking a side ><

[JenaSalton]

And when you do pick a side, the dream is that Jonas or the droid on the Imp side whose name I don't remember bring up the previous choices you made. If you're an Imp player who sided with Acina on Iokath then say you want to be a double agent there is much distrust. But if you had previously sided with the Republic as an Imp player there is a it more of a grudging trust. And if your an Imp, who sided with the Republic on Iokath but remain with the Empire, everyone is giving you the side eye.

Heck, even make the scene where Lana is talking to you about picking a side happen at different times of day to kind of indicate how quickly someone is reaching out to you. Fully loyal to your faction, happens in the morning because people aren't waiting to contact you. A bit all over the place, happens in the afternoon because there was much discussion before reaching out. Opposing your faction, Lana doesn't talk to you until night because there are still people who don't trust you and they're only reaching out to you as a last resort.

[cannibithobbal]

 

1 hour ago, eabevella said:

This would make a neutral option on Iokath even better: I want to stay neutral and I would accept the consequence of that decision.

This plus the traitor arc will better convinces us that staying neutral is not a long term option so picking a side before Onslaught won't feel so forced.

This, so much, completely, yes.

I honestly feel like if you choose a side on Iokath then going and having to choose again feels..... silly.  Like, didn't we just do this?  But if you were able to stay neutral on Iokath and then it still goes wrong anyway, then being urged to choose a side later makes so much sense.

 

On this topic, can I also just say I really wish it were possible to fully choose the opposing side for Jedi Under Siege onward like you do on Iokath.  Like, obviously game coding won't allow your character to actually change faction for real but for the sake of the single player story alone, I wish an imp character could say "I want to join the republic" and then be given a choice of whether they want to fully join and play through the republic version of the story or to work as a double agent, and then ditto for republic character joining the empire.

Kind of makes the choice on Iokath to join the opposing side feel really limp and ultimately pointless if the only option when choosing the opposing side later results in only the PC, Lana, and Theron knowing that they joined the opposing side permanently and the entire rest of the alliance thinking they chose the side the commander is secretly sabotaging. 

As I just played through that bit I also felt it was a super jerk move on the part of the republic to be like "you wanna join the republic?  well, you only can if you will spy for us" and my character tried to protest it and just be done with the empire and the response was essentially "this is your only option, don't like it? too bad" which was like "???? really???"  whereas if the character could choose that as an OPTION it would feel less bad.

But alas, sigh.

 

Oh, and, back to the Theron trying to convince Malcolm to stop on a neutral choice option.... that line from Theron about how he always hated Malcolm for choosing the republic over him would hit so much harder omg

Edited June 6, 2023 by cannibithobbal

[Goreshaga]

13 minutes ago, cannibithobbal said:

 

This, so much, completely, yes.

I honestly feel like if you choose a side on Iokath then going and having to choose again feels..... silly.  Like, didn't we just do this?  But if you were able to stay neutral on Iokath and then it still goes wrong anyway, then being urged to choose a side later makes so much sense.

 

On this topic, can I also just say I really wish it were possible to fully choose the opposing side for Jedi Under Siege onward like you do on Iokath.  Like, obviously game coding won't allow your character to actually change faction for real but for the sake of the single player story alone, I wish an imp character could say "I want to join the republic" and then be given a choice of whether they want to fully join and play through the republic version of the story or to work as a double agent, and then ditto for republic character joining the empire.

Kind of makes the choice on Iokath to join the opposing side feel really limp and ultimately pointless if the only option when choosing the opposing side later results in only the PC, Lana, and Theron knowing that they joined the opposing side permanently and the entire rest of the alliance thinking they chose the side the commander is secretly sabotaging. 

As I just played through that bit I also felt it was a super jerk move on the part of the republic to be like "you wanna join the republic?  well, you only can if you will spy for us" and my character tries to protest it and just be done with the empire and the response was essentially "this is your only option, don't like it? too bad" which was like "???? really???"  whereas if the character could choose that as an OPTION it would feel less bad.

But alas, sigh.

 

Oh, and, back to the Theron trying to convince Malcolm to stop on a neutral choice option.... that line from Theron about how he always hated Malcolm for choosing the republic over him would hit so much harder omg

I agree with all of this.

Having the option to stay neutral on Iokath, things going badly showing you really need to pick a side, and having to live with the consequences of our choice would've been so much better. And yeah i could've lived with Malcom being pretty much the only responsible for his own death, but with how things are, i can't really blame him at first to be a bit desperate, the PC is technically allied with the Empire when he goes to Iokath and he knows Alliance + Empire = the death of the Republic so he really feels like he needs that weapon, and then if the PC fully sides with Acina he doesn't really have a choice but to go for the weapon no matter the risks, so the PC is also responsible for his death in that scenario. Meawhile if the PC stayed neutral, only wanting to prevent anyone, including the Alliance from getting the weapon and he still tried to get it, then yeah he'd be 100% responsible of his own fate.

And i'm fully with you about wishing we could play the Pub storyline with a former Imp character, i hate playing double agent, especially since it's apparently never going to go anywhere and i hate the Imp side of the story, again even more so as a saboteur as i feel like i'm actually doing more harm than good... This has made playing my Imps past the Fractured Alliance arc very difficult and quite unpleasant tbh.

Yep would be really hard, but you know what, with how the story actually is, he'll probably regret for the rest of his life how things went and the fact he'll never have any chance to even try to repair the relationship, and it's partially the PC's, Theron's and Malcom's fault. At least with him dying without us actively choosing the Empire it'd be Malcom's fault and only his, which would probably be a bit less difficult for Theron to swallow.

[cannibithobbal]

16 minutes ago, Goreshaga said:

And i'm fully with you about wishing we could play the Pub storyline with a former Imp character, i hate playing double agent, especially since it's apparently never going to go anywhere and i hate the Imp side of the story, again even more so as a saboteur as i feel like i'm actually doing more harm than good... This has made playing my Imps past the Fractured Alliance arc very difficult and quite unpleasant tbh.

Agreed.  I actually gave up playing my agent through the rest of the story because I actually hated it.  You are supposedly a saboteur but the "saboteuring" is so light that for all intents and purposes you are playing the imp story as a loyal imp.  And I hated the story (especially Ossus -- I refused to shoot at a single Jedi, I let my companions do it while I just stood there lol)  

If you were actually sabotaging the MAIN MISSIONS (which is kinda what I thought it would be before I started?) it would be much different but no, the main story plays out exactly the same.  I even had cutscenes with just agent, Theron, and Lana who all know the truth where the three of them were talking as if they were on imp side and not like they were there to sabotage, it felt so wrong and out of character.

I just decided to stop halfway through Onderon and HC a different continuation where my agent tried to play it the republic's way and be a double agent again because he had done it before but he realizes after a mission and a half that he has changed too much and it isn't right for him anymore so he publicly announces he's done with the empire and that was a double agent (so the empire won't want him back and the republic will not be able to send him in as a spy again) and backs out of the deal with the republic and takes the alliance fully independent again until the republic will agree to let them actually join.  😊

 

Oh, and, the whole "the character switches sides in story but can't change faction affiliation for the whole game" can be solved too, in the same exact way it is after Iokath (it's slightly flimsy for a permanent republic alliance but I would be entirely fine with it... Theron is worried about the PC's safety, after all!)

They could easily have just changed a few lines here and there throughout the story to account for a defected character playing through a storyline as opposed to a character who was always in that faction.  It just feels so lazy that they didn't let that be an option, ugh.

Edited June 6, 2023 by cannibithobbal
typos

[JakRoanin]

I still love my saboteurs!  

[Goreshaga]

1 hour ago, cannibithobbal said:

Agreed.  I actually gave up playing my agent through the rest of the story because I actually hated it.  You are supposedly a saboteur but the "saboteuring" is so light that for all intents and purposes you are playing the imp story as a loyal imp.  And I hated the story (especially Ossus -- I refused to shoot at a single Jedi, I let my companions do it while I just stood there lol)  

If you were actually sabotaging the MAIN MISSIONS (which is kinda what I thought it would be before I started?) it would be much different but no, the main story plays out exactly the same.  I even had cutscenes with just agent, Theron, and Lana who all know the truth where the three of them were talking as if they were on imp side and not like they were there to sabotage, it felt so wrong and out of character.

I just decided to stop halfway through Onderon and HC a different continuation where my agent tried to play it the republic's way and be a double agent again because he had done it before but he realizes after a mission and a half that he has changed too much and it isn't right for him anymore so he publicly announces he's done with the empire and that was a double agent (so the empire won't want him back and the republic will not be able to send him in as a spy again) and backs out of the deal with the republic and takes the alliance fully independent again until the republic will agree to let them actually join.  😊

 

Oh, and, the whole "the character switches sides in story but can't change faction affiliation for the whole game" can be solved too, in the same exact way it is after Iokath (it's slightly flimsy for a permanent republic alliance but I would be entirely fine with it... Theron is worried about the PC's safety, after all!)

They could easily have just changed a few lines here and there throughout the story to account for a defected character playing through a storyline as opposed to a character who was always in that faction.  It just feels so lazy that they didn't let that be an option, ugh.

Yeah i went up to Onslaught with the only Imp who went beyond JUS so far, and then i gave up. But, i'll have to force myself through all that if i want to see more of Arcann's romance, and if i want to play throught the Mando stuff with my BHs (if only to continue the romance with Torian and see where the flirts with Rass will lead to).

I would not care if my imp toons were stuck doing things on Imp side for anything outside of the story (like the old Heroics or FPs, or dailies), but for the story i really wish i could play the Pub side story like what we can do on Iokath. Our former Imps have already made the first step towards joining the Republic there, let the Pubs show they won't trust them until they've really proven they are actually geniuine in wanting to switch side, but are happy to have the Alliance on their side nonetheless, and willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

As it is, it's very frustrating for me, 1/ because i really don't like whatever i'm forced to do on Imp side, and 2/ because i HC that all my characters live in the same continuity, but it's become impossible when the two sides don't even agree with each other, like Gnost-Dural is helping rebuild the Jedi Order on Pub side but he's either dead or captive on Imp side. And honestly, i feel like death is probably the best option as that way he's not going to be tortured until he gives a lot of valuable informations to the Empire... but he'll never be able to help rebuilt there. That choice was so stupid, and could easily have been solved with a "[saboteur] pretend to kill Gnost-Dural" option, where our PC would attack him and wound him enough that the Empire would really belive they tried to kill him, while they'd make sure he'd survive long enough to be rescued, and that would even have the benefit of being also in line with what happens on Pub side, but nope we're forced to choose between two awful options that don't even make sense for a saboteur...

Not to mention how silly it looks when the same side wins everything but the other side keeps fighting as if nothing happened and as if they have unlimited ressources (which the game made sure to tell us no one has), would be better if no matter who we support there were wins and losses on both sides.

Edited June 6, 2023 by Goreshaga

[JakRoanin]

Ah the INFJ curse always the outcast LOL! While I agree that the saboteur storyline needs some TLC I still like knowing that my Imps are no longer trapped in helping them win. And it's another bond with Theron both romantically and platonically. I'd love a scene where Theron gives my SW and my BH pointers and support. 

[cannibithobbal]

2 hours ago, JakRoanin said:

I still love my saboteurs!  

To clarify, I also LOVE my agent who was willing to be a saboteur and who was a double agent from the class story.

As a result, before I started I really thought I would LOVE playing saboteur because I loved being able to be a double agent on my agent so much.  But the fact I love my agent to pieces is actually why I hated the saboteur as it actually played out in game.  Not only because I hate that the saboteur stuff is exponentially more miniscule than I thought it would be (and they couldn't even swing for alternate dialogue cutscenes between Theron and Lana!!), but because I hate the false appearance of agency for your character when you choose it. 

Specifically, you seemingly have full freedom to allow your character to pick whatever faction they want.  But then, if you choose the faction that character did not originate with, your character loses all agency at that point and instead of the choice THEY made (joining republic for imp character or choosing empire for a republic character), they are FORCED to become a double agent.

For some characters, I might be able to get past that (maybe).  But for my agent, I absolutely could not justify that as being a permanent arrangement he would be ok with, because the empire constantly taking away his free will and agency (and him seeing that he was far from the only one they did that to) is exactly why he hated and turned against them in the first place.   (Not to mention why he continuously would not side with the empire during KotXX/Iokath, he did not trust the empire anywhere near the people he cared about any more than he trusted them around himself).  He never even chose to become an agent to begin with, then when the empire wasn't satisfied with how well they had brainwashed him into service, they programmed him with even worse brainwashing that could fully control him.  When he chose to become a double agent the first time, it was finally a genuine choice, he CHOSE it. 

But the second time, to start the saboteur story?  It isn't a choice, the republic is taking away his ability to actually choose any other path, despite him protesting.  So really they are being hardly any better than the empire was to him in the past (better enough it's still a better choice than actually going back to empire, but, barely).

Hence, me realizing he would give in initially thinking he had no other option, but regrets it immediately because the empire is too close to all of the people in the Alliance that he has sworn to protect, and because he hates that feeling that he only accepted the deal because they did not give him a choice.  (He also just changed too much as a character and realizes he just wants to be Alliance Commander and doesn't want to be a spy anymore since he never chose it in the first place.  He never chose being Commander either I suppose, but he fell into it naturally, it wasn't forced on him lol)

....that wasn't about Theron even remotely, just me complaining about saboteur for my agent, so, uh, here's a lovely screenshot of Theron in apology 😅

 

Edited June 6, 2023 by cannibithobbal

[Goreshaga]

Just now, JakRoanin said:

Ah the INFJ curse always the outcast LOL! While I agree that the saboteur storyline needs some TLC I still like knowing that my Imps are no longer trapped in helping them win. And it's another bond with Theron both romantically and platonically. I'd love a scene where Theron gives my SW and my BH pointers and support. 

I have characters for who it would fit, my IAs for instance, as that's basically what they've been doing since the end of their class story. Problem is the saboteur stuff is very minimalistic and doesn't really feels like it actually makes a difference in a good way. Most of the time i feel like i'm actually helping the Empire more than i'm sabotaging it (like with the Gnost-Dural choice, if you kill him, that's one less enemy for the Empire to worry about, if you capture him, they can torture him to get every valuable intel he can have, while both choices have their merit for a loyalist, they're both terrible for a saboteur).

Then, there's my SI who just want to burn the Empire to the ground and would do anything for that, so both option could work really.

And then i have other characters for who it just doesn't work at all, my SW or BH would rather openly fight against the Empire than play saboteurs.

[cannibithobbal]

17 minutes ago, Goreshaga said:

Problem is the saboteur stuff is very minimalistic and doesn't really feels like it actually makes a difference in a good way. Most of the time i feel like i'm actually helping the Empire more than i'm sabotaging it (like with the Gnost-Dural choice, if you kill him, that's one less enemy for the Empire to worry about, if you capture him, they can torture him to get every valuable intel he can have, while both choices have their merit for a loyalist, they're both terrible for a saboteur).

 

This precisely, yes.  I HATED the Gnost-dural "choice" so much.  I mean, I hated even being forced to fight him at all.  My character is supposedly trying to "saboteur" the empire, not "play along and observe and not interfere" and while I can understand my poor lil agent realizing he could not exactly beat Malgus in a fight so opposing him might not work, surely, there is a better option than just going along with murdering a bunch of Jedi (that he knows Theron cares about no less!!!!!!!!!!!!), like, just no. no. no.  I was relieved there was at least the choice to NOT kill Gnost-dural but, like, after that happened I thought for sure my agent would then call up Jonas and be like "the empire captured some powerful Jedi, here's the details for the prisoner transport so you can intercept and free them" or something.  But, nope.  Nothing.

Like, literally, the ONLY saboteuring that happens on ALL OF OSSUS is stopping the empire from getting the Jedi farming techniques (oh, and a tiny bonus quest to sabotage some ships that you never even see).  If you save Gnost-dural you're at least acting less imperial, but it isn't really hurting the empire at all.  I just...... the republic has an agent on site with the empire when they know the empire are going after some of the last remaining Jedi and THEY ONLY CARE ABOUT STOPPING THE EMPIRE FROM FARMING ???????????????????????????????

Edited June 6, 2023 by cannibithobbal

[JenaSalton]

Oh man, I don't know if there are enough words to describe how much I love the saboteur storyline (though there are definitely places I think it could be improved). So, excuse the gushing that doesn't really have anything ti do with Theron - except its about spies and he's a spy, so close enough.

The best - per their success in their roles not their ideology - real world spies (like Kim Philby, a British MI6 agent who was secretly spying for the Soviet Union and Oleg Gordievsky a KGB agent who secretly worked for MI6) generally aren't actually the ones messing things up, destroying weapons, assassinating folks and all that. Because that's a one and done sort of thing. You do that and either you are being extracted immediately by the side you were helping or you're imprisoned or killed by the folks you betrayed. Instead, being a good double agent means acting in such a way that the side you are spying on trusts you and gives you promotions, because the higher up you are the more information you have access to and that means you can pass things on to your allies or can pass on information from your allies to the people you are betraying. The small acts of espionage and passing along information is a lot more helpful to a side then a single dramatic betrayal.

I love when Tau attacks my saboteur Imp characters, because she shouldn't know they're a spy. Very, very, very few people should and even if people in the Republic know there is a spy, the actual identity of your PC shouldn't be known by most people. (With Oleg even though he was giving information that went directly to Britain's PM and that PM was incharge of authorizing his extraction from the Soviet Union, they had no idea who he actually was. Other people in MI6 who weren't part of the team handling Oleg had no idea who he was.)

That being said, some of my complaints are:

1. Not all of my characters would be particularly good at this - my Bounty Hunter's sense of honour wouldn't really allow them to do this. So, I agree that there should be some option at the start to openly defect and jump ship to the other faction. I get it would probably be extra work, but the option would be fantastic.

2. Not allowing double agents to rejoin their faction - you want your spies to be as high up as possible, a SI on the Dark Council is a way more effective spy than a SI who's part of an Alliance that is not even part of the Empire.

Things that would make the story better:

1. More secret meetings with your handler, giving reports, passing along info that you gather during the storyline. And letters talking about how that information helped the side you're working for.

2. More bonding with people in your faction that you're betraying. Make them likeable, make it so the player feels bad about betraying them.

3. More suspicion about a traitor. Have cutscenes (or even just letters) where someone in Intelligence/the SIS is asking your character about who they think might be the spy. Let there be accusations and arrests!

4. Give me a code name. All the cool double agents get code names and I want one.

When I'm not at work on my phone, I'll probably come back and add a lot more to this, but I absolutely love it. And I hope Bioware continues with it and expands it, rather than just ignoring it.

(And, even more off topic, if anyone wants to read about Oleg they should check out The Spy and the Traitor by  Ben MacIntyre - it's definitely one of those books where real life is even more fantastic than a story could be.)

Edited June 6, 2023 by JenaSalton

[cannibithobbal]

In theory I agree with all that re: how spies work.  And if it was done better I would really love it too.

But imo the problem is in the execution.  It feels lazy to me, like the devs didn't have enough money to actually make 4 separate versions of the story (2 normal, 2 saboteur) but because they wanted to give the illusion of choice to not rejoin original faction they threw in some token differences into the story which are ultimately not worth much.

I wanted to love the saboteur story, I really thought I would, but it has too many glaring issues for me and made me hate it, especially on the character I was playing it on.  And the fact I was on THE SPY and it didn't feel right, welp.

I would be infinitely more ok with the saboteur story if:

1. There was a choice between fully join opposing faction (and playing that story) OR be a spy for opposing faction and go back to your own faction as saboteur -- GIVE MY CHARACTERS BACK THEIR AGENCY

2. cutscenes with Theron and Lana who know about the PC being a spy reflect that they are undercover on missions and not act like they are supporting the faction they are spying on

2b. this may be an imperial saboteur issue specifically but: Theron and Lana suddenly acting differently in general because they are publicly working with the empire is a huge ick to me, fix that

3. when choosing saboteur the PC could likewise choose to publicly leave the Alliance and "rejoin" their original faction in an agreement that the Alliance itself will then ally with the faction the PC wanted them to ally with (e.g., imp character chooses republic, republic agrees to ally officially and publicly with the Alliance, but the Commander publicly steps down and returns to the empire, planning to be a spy there) -- this because I absolutely LOATHE that the whole Alliance is forced to ally with a faction publicly just because the faction the Commander ACTUALLY chose wants their leader to be a spy for that faction, it is nonsensical and stupid imo

4. more actual spying and reporting back, aka more actual saboteuring (such as doing more saboteur bonus quests, or doing things like my previously suggested reporting on Gnost-dural's capture and giving enough info that the republic can intercept and free him -- this would not break the spy's cover but would be a perfect example of actually feeling useful) -- because as is being "saboteur" feels all but useless and hardly any different from just playing that story as normal

5. if it's just quietly undercover as spy and barely even reporting anything useful in any mission, then maybe call it something other than "saboteur" lol, because the word saboteur implies actually doing active sabotage and there is almost none of that

6. let the PC be a spy who simply gathers info but then let their allies in the Alliance act on that intel and do actual genuine sabotaging -- this would especially be effective with #3 

Edited June 6, 2023 by cannibithobbal