Pvp a bit out of control?

[verfallen]

all tank specs and sniper specs, at least one mara spec with the other two having access to a utility for it, and it's been awhile since I've even looked at my Op, but I'm pretty sure they have or can spec into one too. Plenty of classes have heal debuffs on top of the trauma debuff of the warzone.

 

1st - Where the hell have you been

 

 

2nd - Its baseline on crippling slash for maras now, and on shatter shot for sniper.

 

The utility extend the range and lower the cost of the 1st, and the lenght of the 2nd if you so choose.

 

No utility for it on operative or any other non-tank class sadly.

 

Tank able class have it locked into their tank tree, on their filler basic attack and basic spammable aoe (thrash/lacerate, vicious slash/sweeping slash, flame burst/flame sweep)

 

Tbh I'd simply remove it from marauder and sniper as well, or at least have their version be less potent or shorter/with an internal cooldown of how many time it can be applied within 10-15 seconds.

 

The rest of your post is spot on. Even when operative healing its amazing how little I get interrupted other than stun locks.

[jedcjedcjedc]

1st - Where the hell have you been

 

 

2nd - Its baseline on crippling slash for maras now, and on shatter shot for sniper.

 

The utility extend the range and lower the cost of the 1st, and the lenght of the 2nd if you so choose.

 

No utility for it on operative or any other non-tank class sadly.

 

Tank able class have it locked into their tank tree, on their filler basic attack and basic spammable aoe (thrash/lacerate, vicious slash/sweeping slash, flame burst/flame sweep)

 

Tbh I'd simply remove it from marauder and sniper as well, or at least have their version be less potent or shorter/with an internal cooldown of how many time it can be applied within 10-15 seconds.

 

The rest of your post is spot on. Even when operative healing its amazing how little I get interrupted other than stun locks.

 

I've been playing some diablo, a lot of overwatch, thinking about fortnight, and put in for the path of exile beta on xb1 lol. I think i have like 2 weeks or so of my sub left, might renew it, i just havent had that "you know what I wanna do? i wanna go do some swtor pvp" feeling for a bit lol. that and most of the core of my guild either cant/doesn't get on or they've moved to harbinger.

[funnypat]

what's with this extreme literal interpretation you always come up with? the person explains what he is talking about and your response is akin to "no no no! obviously I know what you mean better than you know what you mean, this is what you meant!".

 

 

To be honest, healers can't deal with adequate dps. think about it. to keep the example simple lets just say one healer on each team. healers have 8 people they havbe to try to keep up. the opposing dps have one healer they need to try to kill. this creates very uneven odds in favor of the dps, but a lot of the time, the dps will not focus fire, they won't do more than 1.5k dps a match, hell I've played in so many matches where the healer isn't even marked until I (sometimes as the healer for the other team myself) mark them. sure the tank can guard and cc, the dps can peel for their healer, but your team can apply these same strategies. the healer is by far outnumbered in any given situation except for the obvious bad matchmaking when you get like 4+ in a group.

 

 

all tank specs and sniper specs, at least one mara spec with the other two having access to a utility for it, and it's been awhile since I've even looked at my Op, but I'm pretty sure they have or can spec into one too. Plenty of classes have heal debuffs on top of the trauma debuff of the warzone.

 

I love you - nothing more to say

 

But I guess he will tell you later what you meant with your post, I think those are the people who cry out loud if snipers roll away from 4 dps and report them for cheating since they can't do that - they need to stay and be killed by 4 people since they have the numbers...

 

It's not normal to run, you shouldn't be able to, because great god of all MMOs tells you so.

 

And yeah DPS is a thing, as I said before no rotation (basic knowledge of how skills work) what to use when, how to focus, mark, taunt etc - when i have 8k hps I still get all the **** if my team highest dps is only at like 1k - clearly "healers fault" - and not at all obvious why they weren't able to kill their heal xP

 

Wish you a lovely day o/

[Shivax]

Heals still need nerfing.

 

No. They will only destroy them for pve. They should restrict number of healers per wz.

[Sargrith]

what's with this extreme literal interpretation you always come up with? the person explains what he is talking about and your response is akin to "no no no! obviously I know what you mean better than you know what you mean, this is what you meant.

 

Sorry but this is just untrue. Anyone can go back and read it for themselves though and see that for themselves.

 

They clearly stated the could have two dps on them and still be able to throw heals on their team. There clarification was they needed their stun break and such.....hardly a huge change.

 

I did not argue I knew what they mean, I simply posted what they said. Please a little honesty would be helpful.

 

If healers really expect to be able to heal through two dps on them while throwing heals to their team that should be unrealistic if we take what your friend posted as truth and it can be done what we really have is a need to adjust healing in this game. I am not worried about edge cases were the dps are just really bad.

[Elusive_Thing]

Seems Melee are the FOTM after the last patch, It seems like they increased melee's burst damage, right now I'm seeing Guardian/Jugg DPS, Maruders, Shadows, etc... given all their Defensive skills melee dps is better then range dps.

Okay, defenses. Powertech and Juggernaut compared to Merc and Sniper. Melee has it better, right?

[DarthOvertone]

Heals still need nerfing.

 

Nah...Healz are fine. Peeps that can't DPS need to just go back to PvE. DPS is literally the easiest thing to do in this game. It's ridiculous that so many people are so bad at it.

[-Bob-]

Well I'm glad everyone had a chance to voice their concerns and opinions. It seems as though we have PVP back under control for the time being, Good Job everyone, GG!

[AlrikFassbauer]

DPS is literally the easiest thing to do in this game.

 

NIMH raideres tell us differently.

[helpmewin]

Overhyped heals/SH, a lot of DCD-s/immunes + in addition to this mix of taunts and guard destroyed into the ground fun and dynamic of BG-s here. Edited August 15, 2017 by helpmewin

[Alssaran]

It's a feature to make a role viable, you can't compare it to a standard ability.

 

The issue is that it's not making the role viable. It's making the class viable.

 

Damage reducing taunts and guard is not a tank feature since it was given to basically everyone. Although I will say that I am not sure about challenger's call's damage reduction on a non-tank specced person. I haven't played my guardian tank as a DPS spec since early 3.0. They might have changed that with 4.0 or 5.0.

 

Nobody is playing a true tank in PvP, so stop trying to use that as a justification for why guard can't be adjusted. Guard is available to DPS specs and off-tanks too, which means that the healer-guard combination works on so much more than just a tank-healer combination.

 

With the high uptime on healing this game has, even an off-tank/tanky DPS character can sustain a lot of damage from the redirected numbers thrown at him.

 

I'll counter your "it makes tanks viable, so it is a good mechanic" with the following: It is not required to be a tank to use guard and taunts efficiently. The damage reduction and numbers on guard, if available to DPS characters, should stack and be proportional to the amount of defense/shield/absorb rating a character has, and that rating should directly influence how much damage he can sponge.

 

The issue with guard at the moment is that neither is the case. The damage absorbtion on guard is hard-coded into the ability. It does not take tanking stats into account. The result is that I can go in as a full-dps-skank-tank and still do a better job at doing what a full tank is supposed to be doing. Even a decent DPS specced person can use guard to it's full advantage. When that guard is stacked across multiple healers/characters, you get into the issue of not having enough DPS or peel to make anything happen. And with the limit of ~2 CC on any given target within a set amount of time, there is no possibility to effectively keep a healer locked from healing his target either. Your only chance is that you have classes that manage to burst either the healer or his guarding skank-tank in the time it takes for those two CC to run out.

 

This, however, is an account of unranked gameplay. Ranked gameplay might be an entirely different beast to tackle.

 

I'd accept the argument that guard is a viable way to make tanks viable for PvP if it was a tank-focused ability in the immortal/defense tree, or it had benefits associated with stacking defensive modifications and augments, but it hasn't. It's a flat out free, predetermined, low cooldown and no activation ability for everyone.

 

The added survivability of playing in defense gear is far inferior to how useful the DPS is you do in full dps enhancements/mods/relics, which means you will never see a true tank in PvP. You see off-tanks and DPS-redirections, but real tanks don't have any advantage over those.

 

Ever since guard was given to DPS characters, it has stopped being something that makes tanks viable. And even before that, the execution was nice, but it lacked depth to counter/account for these off-tanks.

Edited August 18, 2017 by Alssaran

[KendraP]

The issue is that it's not making the role viable. It's making the class viable.

 

Damage reducing taunts and guard is not a tank feature since it was given to basically everyone. Although I will say that I am not sure about challenger's call's damage reduction on a non-tank specced person. I haven't played my guardian tank as a DPS spec since early 3.0. They might have changed that with 4.0 or 5.0.

 

Nobody is playing a true tank in PvP, so stop trying to use that as a justification for why guard can't be adjusted. Guard is available to DPS specs and off-tanks too, which means that the healer-guard combination works on so much more than just a tank-healer combination.

 

With the high uptime on healing this game has, even an off-tank/tanky DPS character can sustain a lot of damage from the redirected numbers thrown at him.

 

I'll counter your "it makes tanks viable, so it is a good mechanic" with the following: It is not required to be a tank to use guard and taunts efficiently. The damage reduction and numbers on guard, if available to DPS characters, should stack and be proportional to the amount of defense/shield/absorb rating a character has, and that rating should directly influence how much damage he can sponge.

 

The issue with guard at the moment is that neither is the case. The damage absorbtion on guard is hard-coded into the ability. It does not take tanking stats into account. The result is that I can go in as a full-dps-skank-tank and still do a better job at doing what a full tank is supposed to be doing. Even a decent DPS specced person can use guard to it's full advantage. When that guard is stacked across multiple healers/characters, you get into the issue of not having enough DPS or peel to make anything happen. And with the limit of ~2 CC on any given target within a set amount of time, there is no possibility to effectively keep a healer locked from healing his target either. Your only chance is that you have classes that manage to burst either the healer or his guarding skank-tank in the time it takes for those two CC to run out.

 

This, however, is an account of unranked gameplay. Ranked gameplay might be an entirely different beast to tackle.

 

I'd accept the argument that guard is a viable way to make tanks viable for PvP if it was a tank-focused ability in the immortal/defense tree, or it had benefits associated with stacking defensive modifications and augments, but it hasn't. It's a flat out free, predetermined, low cooldown and no activation ability for everyone.

 

The added survivability of playing in defense gear is far inferior to how useful the DPS is you do in full dps enhancements/mods/relics, which means you will never see a true tank in PvP. You see off-tanks and DPS-redirections, but real tanks don't have any advantage over those.

 

Ever since guard was given to DPS characters, it has stopped being something that makes tanks viable. And even before that, the execution was nice, but it lacked depth to counter/account for these off-tanks.

 

First, if I'm not guarding as a tank, what exactly is my purpose as a tank. Without the guard mechanic, why would I run a tank exactly?

 

Dps have always been able to taunt. I am very unhappy about dps having guards too, since it marginalizes my preferred play style. I personally would be perfectly happy if taunting and guarding were strictly tank things since I main a tank and am looking for more purpose like back in the day.

 

Yes no one is playing a full tank in PvP. This is because tank GEAR doesn't really do anything for tank survivablility. If you nerf my tanks damage, you will shoot my ability to hold aggro in the foot in PvE. Therefore, as someone who tanks in both I am ardently against damage nerfs to tanks. Also dps checks appear to be a problem in ops right now, which would be exacerbated by lower tank damage.

 

I played vigi, guarding a healer relatively frequently, for a long time. I had to stop because the guard literally kills you. You are taking half the damage from whoever you are guarding; on an already squishy spec this hurts. And dps guardians and VGs are both incredibly squishy. Compare say a guardian to a sniper. Or a VG to a merc. Both of these ranged dps classes are also more survivable than the comparable tank-capable class. If you think otherwise, I'm sorry but it's true, even post-nerf. Sure their damage might be less, but they still have the ability to out survive and thereby kill my vigi guardian. If I'm guarding, this is easily circumvented (and i mean easier than the "don't attack a merc reflecting to avoid healing him" bit). literally put one person to focus me while the rest are on the healer, if it's a dps fake tanking, he'll drop guard or die like the squishy bug he is.

 

I would love mitigation stats to mean something in PvP, I have tried both actual and skank tanking. The survivability difference feels negligible. This is the problem. As far as guard being as effective for dps as it is for tanks, haha you're funny. guardian/vg dps is too squishy to use this to it's full effect.

 

Finally, if guardian and vg are only viable in pvp because they can skank tank, then can we please address these issues first rather than making the entire class not viable? I've mained a guardian since before RotHC so I don't change just because something else is better. I do prefer contributing to my team rather than being carried to wins, however.

 

In other words, it once again comes down to my main three points: give guard to tanks only, make dps vg/guardian less squishy, and make tank gear mean something.

Edited August 20, 2017 by KendraP

[funnypat]

I still don't understand why they got rid of the stances - at least before you had to switch stance to use guard - which most dps sucked at or simply didn't bother. Getting rid of stances only makes it easier for dps to drop/ reapply guard in stressfull situations without any dps loss which is weird...

[KendraP]

I still don't understand why they got rid of the stances - at least before you had to switch stance to use guard - which most dps sucked at or simply didn't bother. Getting rid of stances only makes it easier for dps to drop/ reapply guard in stressfull situations without any dps loss which is weird...

 

Honestly I'm not disappointed about the stance issue. I did enough HM FP with "dps" guardians running soresu lol

[funnypat]

Honestly I'm not disappointed about the stance issue. I did enough HM FP with "dps" guardians running soresu lol

 

Idiots will always find a way to surprise you. You'd wonder how many sins I saw with a normal lightsaber or not using stealth or sorcs not using their bubble in arenas, all classes using autoattack for "supreme" dps, etc

 

At least stupid people were punished for not using it correctly either by less dps or not being able to use guard at all.

 

Skills shouldn't be removed just because some people cannot read or simply don't care - the mechanic made tanking more valuable and people needed to know their class more than now - because now it's only one hotkey and you don't have to care about damage at all - which makes tanking very cheap (not totally useless since a skilled tank can still be a great asset - but "cheap")

[KendraP]

Idiots will always find a way to surprise you. You'd wonder how many sins I saw with a normal lightsaber or not using stealth or sorcs not using their bubble in arenas, all classes using autoattack for "supreme" dps, etc

 

At least stupid people were punished for not using it correctly either by less dps or not being able to use guard at all.

 

Skills shouldn't be removed just because some people cannot read or simply don't care - the mechanic made tanking more valuable and people needed to know their class more than now - because now it's only one hotkey and you don't have to care about damage at all - which makes tanking very cheap (not totally useless since a skilled tank can still be a great asset - but "cheap")

 

This is why I feel guarding should be locked to the tank spec again. Note this does literally nothing about true Skank who, like me, run tank spec and set bonus with dps mods and enhancements (and a shield duh).

[Foambreaker]

I still don't understand why they got rid of the stances - at least before you had to switch stance to use guard - which most dps sucked at or simply didn't bother. Getting rid of stances only makes it easier for dps to drop/ reapply guard in stressfull situations without any dps loss which is weird...

 

It was part of the re-write to get rid of hybrids.

[DarthOvertone]

NIMH raideres tell us differently.

 

This is the PvP Forum brah. Are you lost?

[AlrikFassbauer]

This is the PvP Forum brah. Are you lost?

 

Reread the post I was referring to :

 

DPS is literally the easiest thing to do in this game.

 

He said "this game", and in my opinion this encloses both PvE and PvP.