Why dps sorcs musn't be buffed more

[omaan]

Seeing a host of threads from dps sorcs concerning the need of more buff for both dps sorcs specs i can't just ignore it (especially after seeing 4-8 whining threads about it which actually annoys). All dps sorcs arguments are based on parsley dumming, though it can't be an adequite source of information since many of them are using operation dummy which has its difference compared to warzone dummy (requires more accuracy for example to dps it correctly and other stat difference) and because we never know what are these sorcs using to get that parsley numbers or intensity of their dps (these guys may use low gear or low intensity during testing their dps on dummies). As a player who plays much on warzones, i can say that dps sorcs are doing pretty good now!

 

Real warzone fights can't lie and showing us that dps sorc can be r1-3 dpsers depending on skill,team and other circumstances (like all the other classes actually):

 

http://s018.radikal.ru/i509/1707/6a/bb9629628ee8.jpg

 

http://s019.radikal.ru/i637/1707/92/ef9a7d066817.jpg

 

http://s015.radikal.ru/i333/1707/d8/20cb23f7a8c8.jpg

 

http://s018.radikal.ru/i502/1707/6a/052d75274bdf.jpg

 

http://s018.radikal.ru/i504/1707/94/b88da58ecd16.jpg

 

http://s019.radikal.ru/i632/1707/94/f1e4d567329d.jpg

 

http://s008.radikal.ru/i303/1707/c1/75d8974b99fc.jpg

 

http://s41.radikal.ru/i091/1707/d2/35a466b869f0.jpg

 

http://i056.radikal.ru/1707/44/6bee94e9940d.jpg

 

 

Bioware i hope you won't listen to subjective threads, and will test everything by yourself without making any new fotm class. This game have suffered enough from merc fotm and apparently will loose numerous subscribers when you make a new sorc fotm just due to many whining threads. Don't make another mistake with making new fotm, all classes must be balanced. Otherwise you will loose people very fast.

[ottffsse]

You know that madness/balance sorc has the least burst dps of any spec basically? And Lightning has the weakest burst of a burst spec and the worst defenses? Burst is king in PvP. What you see is mostly fluff damage from dots when an enemy team is zerging around a WZ node. A sustained spec is supposed to put out more overall dps than a burst spec or the sustain is pointless-so what you are seeing in the best cases in WZ damage charts is how it is supposed to be. The classes that are actually finishing a target off before it can heal/DCD are the burst specs (Arsenal, MM, Concealment, Deception, Carnage). Actual kills are much lower on dps sorcs by the nature of how WZs calculate player kills, as most of those are support kills, not killing blows.

 

So at least some of these "illustrations" at least show that what was clearly unintended before (arsenal merc toping sustain dps in overall damage in WZS has been corrected)

 

Beyond those advantages now there are still a lot of disadvantages to a dps sorc like:

1 vs 1 you only win if you run, los, self-heal and wittle the target's heath away and this is good so, and should be by design of the DCDs on the dps sorc spec and not by its potential single target dps which should be appropriately balanced with the other sustained rdps secs within +100/-100. This is very important for PvE for raiding hm+ content. For PvP class balance should always be addressed through the dcd advantages/disadvantages of each class-specifically by talents in the proficiency tree more in mind as "PvP utilities", and not by their dummy dps, which is important for PvE content and should be non-negotiable.

Edited July 15, 2017 by ottffsse

[BraverDre]

You know that madness/balance sorc has the least burst dps of any spec basically? And Lightning has the weakest burst of a burst spec and the worst defenses? Burst is king in PvP. What you see is mostly fluff damage from dots when an enemy team is zerging around a WZ node. A sustained spec is supposed to put out more overall dps than a burst spec or the sustain is pointless-so what you are seeing in the best cases in WZ damage charts is how it is supposed to be. The classes that are actually finishing a target off before it can heal/DCD are the burst specs (Arsenal, MM, Concealment, Deception, Carnage). Actual kills are much lower on dps sorcs by the nature of how WZs calculate player kills, as most of those are support kills, not killing blows.

 

So at least some of these "illustrations" at least show that what was clearly unintended before (arsenal merc toping sustain dps in overall damage in WZS has been corrected)

 

Beyond those advantages now there are still a lot of disadvantages to a dps sorc like:

1 vs 1 you only win if you run, los, self-heal and wittle the target's heath away and this is good so, and should be by design of the DCDs on the dps sorc spec and not by its potential single target dps which should be appropriately balanced with the other sustained rdps secs within +100/-100. This is very important for PvE for raiding hm+ content. For PvP class balance should always be addressed through the dcd advantages/disadvantages of each class-specifically by talents in the proficiency tree more in mind as "PvP utilities", and not by their dummy dps, which is important for PvE content and should be non-negotiable.

 

We want sorc dps to get buffed because it's underperforming in PVE. We want to enjoy our class but we can't because sorcs usually got carried. People like Omaan play this game casually. His opinion is based on poor experience of the game.

 

Bioware please listen to people who play this class and know what they are talking about.

http://parsely.io/parser/view/300214/0 - here is my luckiest parse and here is a parse of a sniper for example http://parsely.io/parser/view/298779/1 .

Virulence has to deal less dps than Madness according to bioware's "target dps system" http://dulfy.net/2017/06/15/swtor-bioware-class-balance-happens/

[omaan]

We want sorc dps to get buffed because it's underperforming in PVE. We want to enjoy our class but we can't because sorcs usually got carried. People like Omaan play this game casually. His opinion is based on poor experience of the game.

 

Bioware please listen to people who play this class and know what they are talking about.

http://parsely.io/parser/view/300214/0 - here is my luckiest parse and here is a parse of a sniper for example http://parsely.io/parser/view/298779/1 .

Virulence has to deal less dps than Madness according to bioware's "target dps system" http://dulfy.net/2017/06/15/swtor-bioware-class-balance-happens/

 

I play this game much and iam not relying on useless, lack of objectivity dummy parsley. I see dot sorc performs good on warzones, and lighting sorc does great dps when not touched by other players which means that lighting sorc requires rotation adjustments BUT NOT DPS buff.

[happysister]

I play this game much and iam not relying on useless, lack of objectivity dummy parsley. I see dot sorc performs good on warzones, and lighting sorc does great dps when not touched by other players which means that lighting sorc requires rotation adjustments BUT NOT DPS buff.

Just because you play the game a lot doesn't mean you know what you're talking about (ie. someone who's played the game for 5 years, but has played nothing but story content, can't really comment on group content as they have no experience in the latter). You can't just look at pvp numbers. You have to take all aspects of the game into account, including dummy parses.

[FerkWork]

Class is OP because of Reg fluff that any non mouth breather can easily heal through, LUL much keks. Muh damage fluff when other fluffers do it better. Also balancing around regs where any person with a brain can be a superstar lol much Kek. On a Mara with the Carnage spec being retardly obscene and whining about Sorc DPS is kektacular. If you don't do the highest level of content please don't comment about how a class is Op. This thread is memes and not worth the time or effort beyond this post. Edited July 15, 2017 by FerkWork

[omaan]

Just because you play the game a lot doesn't mean you know what you're talking about (ie. someone who's played the game for 5 years, but has played nothing but story content, can't really comment on group content as they have no experience in the latter). You can't just look at pvp numbers. You have to take all aspects of the game into account, including dummy parses.

 

As a pvp player iam taking it in pvp perspective, since bioware are not separating pvp and pve we have consequences of class balance for both pve and pvp, and i dont want to see new merc.

[BraverDre]

As a pvp player iam taking it in pvp perspective, since bioware are not separating pvp and pve we have consequences of class balance for both pve and pvp, and i dont want to see new merc.

 

You won't see a new merc since Madness sorc is 500dps below all sustained dps classes. All we want is a slight 5% dps buff so we are on the same level with snipers and IO merc.

[FerkWork]

As a pvp player iam taking it in pvp perspective, since bioware are not separating pvp and pve we have consequences of class balance for both pve and pvp, and i dont want to see new merc.

 

You don't balance around fluff in regs though. And Madness Single target is what needs a buff and can be achieved without buffing the DoTs. And if we do take a PvP perspective it's still meh in Ranked. You clearly have zero clue what you are talking about.

Edited July 16, 2017 by FerkWork

[omaan]

You don't balance around fluff in regs though. And Madness Single target is what needs a buff and can be achieved without buffing the DoTs. And if we do take a PvP perspective it's still meh in Ranked. You clearly have zero clue what you are talking about.

 

Nope, i have a clear clue that if this class will have more buff (and bioware doesnt know what means slight buff or big buff since they know only huge buff!) it will become a new destroyer, especially considering that it is a mobile range class which can dps by standing far away and run for its target when needed with force speed. That why it was nerfed in 5.0 (though i agree that nerf was too harsh).

[RevorteX]

The main problem of the DPS sorcs is their defences mate. Nobody of us is whining and relying on dummies. For one I play a DPS sorc as a main character and I can tell you that if you get caught 1 on 1 WITH WHATEVER Class you want,you get destroyed,except if you are 1vs1 with a sorc/sage.

The big problem of DPS sorc is their survability and defences. Even if they dont touch the damage,the sorc should at least get some defences. What happened now? Static Barrier got nerfed,that nerf applies to every discpline and that was not okay. It didn't absorb so much damage,with a few good hits which it absorbs,afterwards you get pummeled.

We don't want new merc,we want to enjoy our time on this class as every other class.

[omaan]

The main problem of the DPS sorcs is their defences mate. Nobody of us is whining and relying on dummies. For one I play a DPS sorc as a main character and I can tell you that if you get caught 1 on 1 WITH WHATEVER Class you want,you get destroyed,except if you are 1vs1 with a sorc/sage.

The big problem of DPS sorc is their survability and defences. Even if they dont touch the damage,the sorc should at least get some defences. What happened now? Static Barrier got nerfed,that nerf applies to every discpline and that was not okay. It didn't absorb so much damage,with a few good hits which it absorbs,afterwards you get pummeled.

We don't want new merc,we want to enjoy our time on this class as every other class.

 

That what i was telling actually. If someone plays in dps sorc it cant do much. It needs some changes to utilities to make it viable while someone is attacking it. Or changes to rotation, but not buff to dps

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

When people start trying to better their classes fortunes by taking every opportunity calling for nerfs on classes that weren't over-performing, you're not going to be winning many popularity contests. With all the all of sudden "mDPS is OP, never them lots" commentary that's been going on in the sorc forums, rest assured you will be seeing more forums threads of this nature.

 

I have been a long term supporter of Sorcs. I've stated numerous times that not only should their self heals not been nerfed, they should have been buffed, and that sorc DPS should have the best self-heals of any DPS spec [in all other class DPS specs I'm an advocate of less self-healing for them, sorcs should be the exception of that doctrine] and their DCD should not have been nerfed. That the Sorc bubble is a delay at best, you still have to high tail it out of there when it finishes]. Even that their DPS should be a bit higher. Myself, and people of other classes have been vocal about this. Then we check out the forums the day after 5.3 and what do we see?

 

"Nerf every other class to our level". "Nerf mDPS they are OP all of sudden despite the fact that they haven't been touched at all since before 5.0". "Nerf perma stealth", "Nerf Marauders even tho they can't heal one point of damage and are totally dependent on healers [like assassins are as well]" "The classes that were considered the most balanced of all classes in 5x are now OP all of a sudden even tho they weren't touched in 5.3". "Nerf melee DCDS they can still attack while using theirs and we can't". "Nerf Operatives they have much higher DPS than us" [They have higher DPS than everyone, not everyone else is calling for their dps to be nerfed].

 

Anyone who thinks playing melee in PVP is easy or better with Snipers and mercs running around everywhere, with all the slows, stuns, and roots that deny us the ability to DPS every three friggen seconds, the lack of heals and the dependency it causes in some cases, and the limited range, hasn't been paying attention. Should be melee be buffed? Absolutely not. Matter of fact those with self heals need their self heals nerfed. If we have our DCDS takened or lessoned , that's when you will see melee calling for self heals, and rightly so. That's all they have to keep them going when there are no healers around to help them. I'm not saying they aren't good and capable, but it can be frustraiting as hell getting nuked by people 5 blocks away while joe jugg is smashing your face into the ground.

 

 

Sorcs shouldn't have top tier dps because they have so many skills, abilities, powers, CC and Anti CC effects,can kite melee very well, and they have spammable self heals. Now the argument made about those self heals not being that effective [besides for being nerfed which is ridiculous] is that you can't DPS if you are using self heals. But, how exactly does that not make perfect sense? Should people be able to heal and attack at the exact same time? Does it effect the DPS healing? Sure it does, but so does using many abilities to you have to push a button for that isn't an attack. Believe me, it is better to have the option to self heal that not be able to heal at all. That also doesn't take into account that there are timing when you are not fighting at that very second or you are, but your opponent is stunned, or you are moving, so using self heals at those times isn't compromising. Add to those self heals the non self heals you get from certain attacks [death field i.e] as well.

 

I agree that their defenses aren't that great, but honestly, ranged specs defenses shouldn't be that great because they have the advantage of ranged, which was exactly the opposite doctrine that was applied to Mercs and Snipers and made them so OP.

 

Now Arsenal Mercs are doing less DPS than BOTH Sorc DPS specs. Snipers are still doing more damage than sorcs and as well they should, they are a pure DPS class they should have the best DPS of the ranged. The problem with sorcs is that they are out classes defensively by mercs and snipers doing the same role they are by a large margin. It's merc sniper and defenses that needed to be lowered. Those Defenses will be addressed in time and will likely be lowered to be more along the lines closer to yours defenses. They shouldn't have touched Sorc DPS defenses at all until they make the changes to Merc and Sniper defenses. That makes no sense.

 

Lets be honest about one thing here though. Phase walk is one of the best abilities in the game, an outstanding "ohh shyt button", and a "you can't kill me button". A sorc can use phase walk, get to safe place instantly where they can heal up.

 

Regarding "lack of burst" in the madness spec comment made. You can't play both sides here. The commenter wants deception, carnage and concealment nerfed because of their high damage burst attacks and because "sustained should do more overall damage". Fine, fair enough, but than don't ask for more burst for a sustained spec, because they shouldn't have decent burst if you want to go by that line of thinking. A sustained spec shouldn't have decent burst. That's being a hypocrite.

 

The fact is there is very little difference in this game between Burst and Sustained specs. It's hard to call Annihilation a "sustained" spec when they are doing 25k+ annihilates in one GCD. Madness doesn't have burst attacks to that level, but it's not because it's a sustained spec, it's because its a Sorc spec and Anni is a Marauder spec [pure DPS class]. Even still, the following is a quote from Bant, I'm confident most people know who bant is, as we base all our character builds on his work -

 

There is very little difference between Burst and Sustained in SWTOR. All of the DoT classes rely more on Big Hitting moves than they do DoTs and the Burst DPS have all been toned down to the point where most of their moves do same damage. The biggest difference between Burst and DoTs is not sustained damage, its ability to change targets quickly vs setup time. But there are very few fights that require a target to be killed in less than 10 GCDs which lets all of the DoT classes to stand equal to the Burst classes (and the DoT Application is already factored into the DPS for those classes).

 

Someone else said it, you have to take everything in account when you are trying to balance classes. Sorcs do bring a great deal of utility to any group and are outstanding allies to have.

 

Why were the DPS buffs small for Sorc DPS. My guess is because it wasn't all that long ago that sorcs were OP.

 

I think the nerf to sorc healing was ridiculous in that it was far too severe. The truth is, and this is from personal experience, that nerf to sorc healing didn't only effect sorcs. As a marauder in PVP I have to depend on healers from keeping me standing because I can't heal at all, and the ability to self heal in PVP is tremendous, it trumps many DCDs. This is where all the calls for "nerf melee" hit people the wrong way. Is sorc DPS self heals that great? Well, to me, yeah, they are, because they exist. When you don't have any self heals it's very easy to say how advantages having them is because you are watching your enemies health go up, while yours can only go in one direction, down [unless you have a healer].

 

 

I still think Sorcs got a raw deal. I still believe everything I ever said in their defense. I still feel they are deserving of some more attention. Sorc DPS has every right in the world to be pissed that they defenses were nerfed.

That said, if you try to get up higher on the ladder by stepping on other people who have done no wrong and who have to earn what they get all on their own, you're going to make enemies and your going to see more threads like this one.

 

I wouldn't worry too much about the state of things because by the time "class balance is done", there isn't going to be one class or spec that hasn't gotten ripped apart and made their players unhappy. The system they are basing this balancing on is inherently flawed, unrealistic and has specs in categories they don't even belong in. There is going to be more than enough suck for all of us. Those few specs that do not get touched at all will be the lucky ones.

 

Sorry for the wall.

 

P.S. - Buff Lightning DPS like Madness spec, fair is fair, and buff Madness a bit more and undo the defensive nerfs while you are at it.

Edited July 16, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[omaan]

"P.S. - Buff Lightning DPS like Madness spec, fair is fair, and buff Madness a bit more and undo the defensive nerfs while you are at it."

 

Buff dps and buff defenses, no thanks, we already suffered much from mercalypse, and we dont want sorcalypse. Besides, as many have stated, the problem is not in sorcs dps but in their rotation and defense utilities - if someone focuses a sorc, it cant dps much so it is rotational/utility changes it needs rather than dps buff. Don't touch sorc and it will do big dps.

[Eli_Porter]

Are you the same guy who created a similar thread about Serenity/Hatred a year ago?

 

Fluff DPS in regs is just that, fluff.

[BraverDre]

"P.S. - Buff Lightning DPS like Madness spec, fair is fair, and buff Madness a bit more and undo the defensive nerfs while you are at it."

 

Buff dps and buff defenses, no thanks, we already suffered much from mercalypse, and we dont want sorcalypse. Besides, as many have stated, the problem is not in sorcs dps but in their rotation and defense utilities - if someone focuses a sorc, it cant dps much so it is rotational/utility changes it needs rather than dps buff. Don't touch sorc and it will do big dps.

 

dude we want a madness dps buff for PVE. Sorcs are still underperform in pvp ranked. Your screenshots mean nothing cuz they only show how a sorc dps farm dps on mid... ur posts have no sense...

 

#Buff Madness Sorc

#5.4 Balance mDPS

[FerkWork]

Nope, i have a clear clue that if this class will have more buff (and bioware doesnt know what means slight buff or big buff since they know only huge buff!) it will become a new destroyer, especially considering that it is a mobile range class which can dps by standing far away and run for its target when needed with force speed. That why it was nerfed in 5.0 (though i agree that nerf was too harsh).

 

Lol not even close. But keep living in a fantasy if that makes you sleep better at night. Leave the discussion to people who do actual real content. Madness Single Target needs a buff of 300 Single target and it's in line with their Chart. What's next Balance the game around RP lol. Just stop please.

Edited July 16, 2017 by FerkWork

[FerkWork]

The main problem of the DPS sorcs is their defences mate. Nobody of us is whining and relying on dummies. For one I play a DPS sorc as a main character and I can tell you that if you get caught 1 on 1 WITH WHATEVER Class you want,you get destroyed,except if you are 1vs1 with a sorc/sage.

The big problem of DPS sorc is their survability and defences. Even if they dont touch the damage,the sorc should at least get some defences. What happened now? Static Barrier got nerfed,that nerf applies to every discpline and that was not okay. It didn't absorb so much damage,with a few good hits which it absorbs,afterwards you get pummeled.

We don't want new merc,we want to enjoy our time on this class as every other class.

 

You don't balance the game around 1v1. Surivability is mostly fine it's Single target DPS is not.

Edited July 16, 2017 by FerkWork

[omaan]

Lol not even close. But keep living in a fantasy if that makes you sleep better at night. Leave the discussion to people who do actual real content. Madness Single Target needs a buff of 300 Single target and it's in line with their Chart. What's next Balance the game around RP lol. Just stop please.

 

If one class will have both strong single dps and strong dot dps + good mobility it will be catastrophic. You have no idea what you are writing. At the moment sorcs are bad only when they are being targeted, and good when no one is focusing them, this clearly states that it needs not dos buff but other adjustments (to utilities,rotation, etc).

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

dude we want a madness dps buff for PVE. Sorcs are still underperform in pvp ranked. Your screenshots mean nothing cuz they only show how a sorc dps farm dps on mid... ur posts have no sense...

 

#Buff Madness Sorc

#5.4 Balance mDPS

 

Ohh im sorry, I didn't realize that there was a way to buff a class for PVE that wouldn't also effect the same thing in the same way in PVP.

 

How thoughtless of me.

 

Basing class balance on Ranked makes even less sense.

 

 

Keep crying about melee cuz ur happy about madness. Great way to lift yourself up, by trying to rip everyone else down. You want melee level DPS, than give melee your self heals. Not everyone gets some and not everyone can teleport away when things get rough or only fight people from 5 blocks away.

 

Madness isnt the only Sorc DPS spec. Lightinging is too. You got buffed. It's lightnings turn.

 

Oh BTW, Madness is a sustained spec, stop asking for burst like that's reasonable.

Edited July 16, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[ottffsse]

Ohh im sorry, I didn't realize that there was a way to buff a class for PVE that wouldn't also effect the same thing in the same way in PVP.

 

How thoughtless of me.

 

Basing class balance on Ranked makes even less sense.

 

 

Keep crying about melee cuz ur happy about madness. Great way to lift yourself up, by trying to rip everyone else down. You want melee level DPS, than give melee your self heals. Not everyone gets some and not everyone can teleport away when things get rough or only fight people from 5 blocks away.

 

Madness isnt the only Sorc DPS spec. Lightinging is too. You got buffed. It's lightnings turn.

 

Oh BTW, Madness is a sustained spec, stop asking for burst like that's reasonable.

 

Um yes you can. Madness needs a single-target dps buff still to put it in line with the other rdps sustained specs in a PvE setting. This can be easily accomplished by buffing initial demolish hit/ or lightning strike damage off of wrath proc without effecting PvP. Why is that? Let's break it down:

 

If you play the madness/balance class in both PvE and PvP as I do you know that in PvE you use about 1550-1600 alactrity while in PvP you use about 1000-1100 alactrity as you want "bigger" but "fewer" hits in PvP - otherwise you get "fluff fluff" damage instead of just "fluff" damage. (put rest into power.mastery). That big a change in alactrity directly effects how fast you build the 4 wrath stacks during a Force Lightning channel and you need 4 stacks to execute a demolish or lightning strike. In PvP it sometimes it takes 2 Force Lightning channels instead of one to build 4 stacks to execute a Demolish or Lightning strike because of the lower alactrity, interrupts and increased movement/kiting. Which ultimately means that a buff to Demolish/ Lightning Strike for a PvE dps single target boost would mean very little for PvP. You can't spam those abilities as fast as in PvE or you would sacrifice the needed punch (power/mastery) to actually do some damage to opponents in between your fluff dots. So there.

 

As for Lightning/Tk spec, that is a whole different discussion. It is probably in the right place dps-wise but could use a slightly better burst, slightly less overall sustain, and much better defenses.

Edited July 16, 2017 by ottffsse

[FerkWork]

If one class will have both strong single dps and strong dot dps + good mobility it will be catastrophic. You have no idea what you are writing. At the moment sorcs are bad only when they are being targeted, and good when no one is focusing them, this clearly states that it needs not dos buff but other adjustments (to utilities,rotation, etc).

 

Lol really you think I have no clue that's cute. Your argument boils down too waaaahhhh they got massive epeen fluffing numbers so Op please nerf in regs where any mouth breather can be good. Targeted lol whew lad that makes no sense in MM Ops and any class pressured does worse in PvP. And by BW methodology Madness does need a buff of about 200-300 DPS Single target. Just buff the damage on Wrath stacks for Lightning Strike and it's fine. Other specs have better Single target and good AoE. But that's irrevant cause it's still fluff. Shouldn't even bother with this Go make another thread and I'll laugh when they Buff their Single target as they should lol. But I'm out have fun complaining about imaginary problems.

Edited July 16, 2017 by FerkWork

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Um yes you can. Madness needs a single-target dps buff still to put it in line with the other rdps sustained specs in a PvE setting. This can be easily accomplished by buffing initial demolish hit/ or lightning strike damage off of wrath proc without effecting PvP. Why is that? Let's break it down:

 

If you play the madness/balance class in both PvE and PvP as I do you know that in PvE you use about 1550-1600 alactrity while in PvP you use about 1000-1100 alactrity as you want "bigger" but "fewer" hits in PvP - otherwise you get "fluff fluff" damage instead of just "fluff" damage. (put rest into power.mastery). That big a change in alactrity directly effects how fast you build the 4 wrath stacks during a Force Lightning channel and you need 4 stacks to execute a demolish or lightning strike. In PvP it sometimes it takes 2 Force Lightning channels instead of one to build 4 stacks to execute a Demolish or Lightning strike because of the lower alactrity, interrupts and increased movement/kiting. Which ultimately means that a buff to Demolish/ Lightning Strike for a PvE dps single target boost would mean very little for PvP. You can't spam those abilities as fast as in PvE or you would sacrifice the needed punch (power/mastery) to actually do some damage to opponents in between your fluff dots. So there.

 

As for Lightning/Tk spec, that is a whole different discussion. It is probably in the right place dps-wise but could use a slightly better burst, slightly less overall sustain, and much better defenses.

 

I have no issue with whether they get madness another slight buff or not, I could care less personally. But whether it needs it for PVE or not, or PVP or not, you have to consider that it effects both at the same time, like it or not. PVE didn't have to deal with all the Merc Sniper God DCD bs for the last 8 months, but PVP did. We could care less about their DPS. It didn't effect you so you didn't care how it effected PVP. But PVPers do.

 

I was a progression raider until 5.0 came along and destroyed real progression raiding in this game, and a PVPer so I know both sides of it and I loved progression raider infinately more than I like PVP, I'm not partial in the least and that's exactly the point. You are only interested in what is needed for PVE, thats your right, but not make it out like you have a greater claim to a change. Don't expect PVPers to care anymore about what you need for PVE than you care about how alterations may effect PVP.

 

Madness getting buffed more is fine with me, but don't ask for burst level damage. I do not think Sorcs should be doing better DPS than pure DPS classes, sorcs have a ton of utilitity, I do agree however, in the present state of Snipers, they lose alot of their right to a higher DPS than sorcs because they do have self heals and they do have massively OP DCDs.

 

Not everyone has the same DPS and I haven't seen one person suggest, even if asking for buffs, that sorcs should have top tier DPS. They shouldn't. You want to have DPS like Assassins, Marauders, Juggs, and PTs? You think that's reasonable?

 

If you should have that level of DPS, than we should have the same level of self heals that you do. You think your self heals are bad? [and they are], try playing an Assassin or a Marauder, than talk to be about bad self heals. Stand next to the boss the entire time you are fighting and see if you take the same amount of damage you do from fighting from 5 blocks away. Sorcs have a much harder time defensively and DPS wise in PVP than in PVE by about a million times.

 

As a DPS sorc, there is nothing stopping you from standing where the melee do when fighting the boss. Your DPS won't suffer for it because their are no minmum range elements that will prevent you from conducting your rotataion. So tell me than, why do you stand so far away?

 

You know damn well why you do. You do it because fighting at range is a lot safer, prone to less damage, and less effected by many raid mechanics.

 

Your not just calling for DPS closer to other ranged, you and your pals are also trying to get every other class nerfed at the same time. You only care about how things effect PVE. PVPers weren't calling for Sorc nerfs or DPS nerfs TO ANYONE. You want FURTHER buffs, before such a time as the rest of the classes are changed in whatever way they'll end up, beforce knowing if those changes will bring them closer to you in and of themselves. Is it not possible, that BW knowing what is coming, has buffed madness the way it did because it knows where other classes are going to be before they are done?

 

It makes perfect sence to leave Snipers with the highest rDPS if they know they are going to massively cut down their defenses. And I'll state this plainly, if Snipers lose all thier self heals and its back to Maras and Snipers, the two pure DPS classes with no heals, snipers under those conditions should out DPS Sorcs every day of the week.

 

 

Lighting needs a buff right now. Madness shouldn't get a second buff before Lightning get's it's first. Calling for nerfs on Lighting, makes your claim for a second buff so agregiuosly inappropriate it defies reason. I have seen two people in this thread alone call for Lighting nerfs. If you think your DPS is bad why does that say for lightning? [im not talking about the exploit].

 

Both Madness and Lighting are ahead of arsenal already. There are other classes that will be choped up. DCDs will be lowered, which may very well bring them into a closer orbit to Sorcs. But even if that's true, they shouldn't have touched sorc defenses until those other ranged classes got their obscene DCDs cut down. It's terrible they did that to sorcs.

 

I love sorcs, I don't want to see them do poorly. I'll take a sorc healer any day of the week over another healer, and in PVP I'd rather have a sorc DPS with me than a merc because sorcs can do so many things that can bring victory and help their team members. Thats a personal opinion though.

 

It's too soon to tell how the changes are really, it takes time to weed out RNG influences, see what averages are like, and look into data that covers all sprectrums of the player base, not just the end gamers.

 

If madness needs more DPS when the other classes DPS changes are completed and fair comparisons can be made, by all means buff them to appropriate levels, certainly buff their defenses and their self heals.

 

These sorc threads have devolved because of all the finger pointed, and accusations being made and the step on everyone else so we are better attitudes being exhibited in them.

 

It's hard for me as a melee player, who has been advocating for Sorcs all along, calling for buffs for them, and than all of a sudden every other sorc wants to rip melee to shreds and thinks they are entitled to do better DPS than every other ranged class. Of course you are going to get reactions like this.

 

How bout showing so damn solidarity with your sister spec and try to help them get some attention instead of calling for a second buff for yourself and nerfs for lightning. Stop not giving crap about how things will effect PVP.

 

Your calls for second buff so soon are inappropriate to considerations that may be forthcoming to other classes and to specs that are in greater need because they've been left untouched and are wanting.

 

There are two classes in this game that deserve a nerf and only two, Mercs and Snipers, both of which should have been in the realm of their DCDs.

 

You want everyone else nerfed and you buffed a second time. Maybe you deserve that buff, but not every other class deserves a nerf just because they happen to do more DPS than you and should.

 

If you were looking to rally for support for further buffs, you couldn't possibly have gone about it worse than calling for so many others to be nerfed.

 

You reap what you so sew.

[ottffsse]

I have no issue with whether they get madness another slight buff or not, I could care less personally. But whether it needs it for PVE or not, or PVP or not, you have to consider that it effects both at the same time, like it or not. PVE didn't have to deal with all the Merc Sniper God DCD bs for the last 8 months, but PVP did. We could care less about their DPS. It didn't effect you so you didn't care how it effected PVP. But PVPers do.

 

I was a progression raider until 5.0 came along and destroyed real progression raiding in this game, and a PVPer so I know both sides of it and I loved progression raider infinately more than I like PVP, I'm not partial in the least and that's exactly the point. You are only interested in what is needed for PVE, thats your right, but not make it out like you have a greater claim to a change. Don't expect PVPers to care anymore about what you need for PVE than you care about how alterations may effect PVP.

 

Madness getting buffed more is fine with me, but don't ask for burst level damage. I do not think Sorcs should be doing better DPS than pure DPS classes, sorcs have a ton of utilitity, I do agree however, in the present state of Snipers, they lose alot of their right to a higher DPS than sorcs because they do have self heals and they do have massively OP DCDs.

 

Not everyone has the same DPS and I haven't seen one person suggest, even if asking for buffs, that sorcs should have top tier DPS. They shouldn't. You want to have DPS like Assassins, Marauders, Juggs, and PTs? You think that's reasonable?

 

If you should have that level of DPS, than we should have the same level of self heals that you do. You think your self heals are bad? [and they are], try playing an Assassin or a Marauder, than talk to be about bad self heals. Stand next to the boss the entire time you are fighting and see if you take the same amount of damage you do from fighting from 5 blocks away. Sorcs have a much harder time defensively and DPS wise in PVP than in PVE by about a million times.

 

As a DPS sorc, there is nothing stopping you from standing where the melee do when fighting the boss. Your DPS won't suffer for it because their are no minmum range elements that will prevent you from conducting your rotataion. So tell me than, why do you stand so far away?

 

You know damn well why you do. You do it because fighting at range is a lot safer, prone to less damage, and less effected by many raid mechanics.

 

Your not just calling for DPS closer to other ranged, you and your pals are also trying to get every other class nerfed at the same time. You only care about how things effect PVE. PVPers weren't calling for Sorc nerfs or DPS nerfs TO ANYONE. You want FURTHER buffs, before such a time as the rest of the classes are changed in whatever way they'll end up, beforce knowing if those changes will bring them closer to you in and of themselves. Is it not possible, that BW knowing what is coming, has buffed madness the way it did because it knows where other classes are going to be before they are done?

 

It makes perfect sence to leave Snipers with the highest rDPS if they know they are going to massively cut down their defenses. And I'll state this plainly, if Snipers lose all thier self heals and its back to Maras and Snipers, the two pure DPS classes with no heals, snipers under those conditions should out DPS Sorcs every day of the week.

 

 

Lighting needs a buff right now. Madness shouldn't get a second buff before Lightning get's it's first. Calling for nerfs on Lighting, makes your claim for a second buff so agregiuosly inappropriate it defies reason. I have seen two people in this thread alone call for Lighting nerfs. If you think your DPS is bad why does that say for lightning? [im not talking about the exploit].

 

Both Madness and Lighting are ahead of arsenal already. There are other classes that will be choped up. DCDs will be lowered, which may very well bring them into a closer orbit to Sorcs. But even if that's true, they shouldn't have touched sorc defenses until those other ranged classes got their obscene DCDs cut down. It's terrible they did that to sorcs.

 

I love sorcs, I don't want to see them do poorly. I'll take a sorc healer any day of the week over another healer, and in PVP I'd rather have a sorc DPS with me than a merc because sorcs can do so many things that can bring victory and help their team members. Thats a personal opinion though.

 

It's too soon to tell how the changes are really, it takes time to weed out RNG influences, see what averages are like, and look into data that covers all sprectrums of the player base, not just the end gamers.

 

If madness needs more DPS when the other classes DPS changes are completed and fair comparisons can be made, by all means buff them to appropriate levels, certainly buff their defenses and their self heals.

 

These sorc threads have devolved because of all the finger pointed, and accusations being made and the step on everyone else so we are better attitudes being exhibited in them.

 

It's hard for me as a melee player, who has been advocating for Sorcs all along, calling for buffs for them, and than all of a sudden every other sorc wants to rip melee to shreds and thinks they are entitled to do better DPS than every other ranged class. Of course you are going to get reactions like this.

 

How bout showing so damn solidarity with your sister spec and try to help them get some attention instead of calling for a second buff for yourself and nerfs for lightning. Stop not giving crap about how things will effect PVP.

 

Your calls for second buff so soon are inappropriate to considerations that may be forthcoming to other classes and to specs that are in greater need because they've been left untouched and are wanting.

 

There are two classes in this game that deserve a nerf and only two, Mercs and Snipers, both of which should have been in the realm of their DCDs.

 

You want everyone else nerfed and you buffed a second time. Maybe you deserve that buff, but not every other class deserves a nerf just because they happen to do more DPS than you and should.

 

If you were looking to rally for support for further buffs, you couldn't possibly have gone about it worse than calling for so many others to be nerfed.

 

You reap what you so sew.

 

So much nit-picking wrong here in this post but also things we agree on.

 

First in PvE fights 1.) Range or close has nothing to do with actual "danger" level" - that is more of a PvP thing where maintaining some range is better is you are weak dcd class like sorc is currently. There are plenty of PvE bosses where rdps has to stack inside the boss basically. And most raid mechanics are so big that they effect both mdps and ranged.

 

Second personally I stated this earlier I see only fury/concentration and balance/madness significantly underperforming their probable dps level on a PvE dummy parse. That level is stated by the devs "how classes (dps) are balanced" thread. Should they be buffed because of this (and madness get a second buff)? I don't know, but if it looks like a cigar, smells the a cigar it probably is a cigar. That's it. Two specs really, not a nerf but a buff.

 

It is unfortunate that some people are calling for straight out mdps or whatever nerfs but you have to understand many of us who play sorc/sage dps have been so utterly gutted by 5.0 and lack of proper and immediate balancing that we feel pretty passionate about the specs we love to play, but this does not mean going on a crusade or inquisition against everyone else.

 

As for lightning/tk is really has the weakest burst of all the burst specs, and the weakest defenses. Improving its overall burst at the cost of a bit sustain + giving it a good dcd utility kit (and a slightly improved dcd utility kit to the other sages/sorcs) will only improve it's competiveness in PvP and some PvE content.

[Hoppinswtor]

Look, you can fix lightning burst by increasing the base dmg of thundering blast by 15 percent and increasing the Shock dmg buff by 15 percent. Thundering Blast autocrits and supercrits will hit 15 percent harder; if you pop everything, you'll see TB supercrits around 30k. Shock will crit for 12k if used during crushing darkness; right now, 10k crits on shock are pretty rare, making it hardly better than lightning bolt. Indeed, you can omit Shock entirely and still get within 100 dps of a typical parse. That needs to change.

 

These two buffs will lead to a 400 dps increase on a dummy, which is a bit too much; lightning doesn't really need a raw dps increase, so we need to nerf something else. Why not kill two birds with one stone and also lower the variance on the parses? Do this by reducing Forked Lightning and Forked Darkness dmg by half. These forked abilities are a major source of the variance in Lightning parses; sometimes they contribute 400 dps to a parse, other times 800. By cutting that in half, you're basically redistributing some of the dps from crapshoot RNG into reliable and consistent burst.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Hoppinswtor