Most Powerful Force Users

[tunewalker]

Sadly not. You are wrong, I am right. Period. FYI full stops every few words don't make you cool .

 

No he is right you are wrong.

[RTCBrad]

No he is right you are wrong.

 

Prove it, clearly yourself and Aubere are self declared authorities on the matter of the fictional star wars universe.

 

I have ironclad justification for each one.

Edited June 4, 2013 by RTCBrad

[tunewalker]

Prove it.

 

I have ironclad justification for each one.

 

simple number 2 you have as windu.... windu is cannon known as number 2 of that order to yoda thus the whole list has to be wrong..... Sidious only lost to windu because windu pulled on sidious's power thus sidious was effectively fighting himself if he was fighting a lightside user he would not have been able to do this thus would have lost, because he isn't that powerful.

 

there your list falls apart after the first one.

 

Proven your welcome.

Edited June 4, 2013 by tunewalker

[RTCBrad]

simple number 2 you have as windu.... windu is cannon known as number 2 of that order to yoda thus the whole list has to be wrong..... Sidious only lost to windu because windu pulled on sidious's power thus sidious was effectively fighting himself if he was fighting a lightside user he would not have been able to do this thus would have lost, because he isn't that powerful.

 

there your list falls apart after the first one.

 

Proven your welcome.

 

Incorrect. No matter how you spin it or what justification you give. Fact is this, Windu beat palpatine so logic dictates Windu>Palps.

[tunewalker]

Incorrect. No matter how you spin it or what justification you give. Fact is this, Windu beat palpatine so logic dictates Windu>Palps.

 

ok so Anakin>dooku> obi-wan right..... oh wait Anakin lost to obi-wan.... doesn't work that way... so no your wrong me and aurbere are right windu loses to yoda on a regular basis on all of their sparing matches also loses in force powers yoda still trains windu.

 

So again no your wrong.... check the cannon facts its all G-cannon sorry if you cant except that.

Edited June 4, 2013 by tunewalker

[RTCBrad]

ok so Anakin>dooku> obi-wan right..... oh wait Anakin lost to obi-wan.... doesn't work that way... so no your wrong me and aurbere are right windu loses to yoda on a regular basis on all of their sparing matches also loses in force powers yoda still trains windu.

 

So again no your wrong.... check the cannon facts its all G-cannon sorry if you cant except that.

 

Nope, external factors come into play not least of which being Anakin is clearly a fool. And Obi-Wan didn't lose to Dooku, he was simply incapacitated for plot reasons surrounding Anakin. Those 3 are more complicated than the circumstances of Sidious, Windu and Yoda

Edited June 4, 2013 by RTCBrad

[tunewalker]

Nope, external factors come into play not least of which being Anakin is clearly a fool. And Obi-Wan didn't lose to Dooku, he was simply incapacitated for plot reasons surrounding Anakin. Those 3 are more complicated than the circumstances of Sidious, Windu and Yoda

 

actually no it isn't... so explain to me how Yoda can win in all of his matches with windu and yet lose to sidious and windu beat him.... I can tell you do your research the only reason Windu didn't drop dead near instantly was Vaapad I hope you know what that means if obi-wan was allowed to learn Vaapad he would have done the same thing...... I could get a Padawan to master Vaapad and they would beat palps.

 

Know the difference between real power and extenuating circumstances.

Edited June 4, 2013 by tunewalker

[RTCBrad]

actually no it isn't... so explain to me how Yoda can win in all of his matches with windu and yet lose to sidious and windu beat him.... I can tell you do your research the only reason Windu didn't drop dead near instantly was Vaapad I hope you know what that means if obi-wan was allowed to learn Vaapad he would have done the same thing...... I could get a Padawan to master Vaapad and they would beat palps.

 

Know the difference between real power and extenuating circumstances.

 

I am aware of what it is, surely "real power" as you put it is irrelevant when you have such an easy weakness to exploit and when you have such a huge and easy to exploit weakness surely that reduces how powerful you actually are in reality. By your logic of being able to get a padawan to master vaapad and they beat palps everytime, that just puts him further down in my estimations.

 

In fact by that logic any Jedi is potentially more powerful because in the end if palps can't beat someone clearly he isn't as good as the person that beat him. To the victor the spoils and all that.

Edited June 4, 2013 by RTCBrad

[tunewalker]

I am aware of what it is, surely "real power" as you put it is irrelevant when you have such an easy weakness to exploit and when you have such a huge and easy to exploit weakness surely that reduces how powerful you actually are in reality. By your logic of being able to get a padawan to master vaapad and they beat palps everytime, that just puts him further down in my estimations.

 

In fact by that logic any Jedi is potentially more powerful because in the end if palps can't beat someone clearly he isn't as good as the person that beat him. To the victor the spoils and all that.

 

lol Then no dark side user should ever be on the list Vapaad is a counter to dark side users in general, it channels the dark side users energy into that person..... Windu was not using his own power to beat palp he was using palps energy, thus the only WEAKNESS palp has is using the dark side..... how the hell do you think windu beat him in a straight up saber fight windu's skill and power vs palps skill and power cus I can assure you it wasn't.

 

Please research the meaning of Vaapad you obviously know little to nothing. the only "weakness" palp has is using the darkside instead of the light.

Edited June 4, 2013 by tunewalker

[RTCBrad]

lol Then no dark side user should ever be on the list Vapaad is a counter to dark side users in general, it channels the dark side users energy into that person..... Windu was not using his own power to beat palp he was using palps energy, thus the only WEAKNESS palp has is using the dark side..... how the hell do you think windu beat him in a straight up saber fight windu's skill and power vs palps skill and power cus I can assure you it wasn't.

 

Please research the meaning of Vaapad you obviously know little to nothing. the only "weakness" palp has is using the darkside instead of the light.

 

All I did was use your logic of "anyone could use vaapad and beat palps", clearly you now see the flaw in your logic.

 

You can argue all you like fact is Windu beat palpatine, and every time they fight Windu will win end of story. Therefore Windu>Palp this is irrefutable logic.

 

I don't see what you mean by "straight up windu skills vs palp skills" one of Windu's skills is Vaapad he used it and beat palps, surely if Windu didn't use one of his skills it wouldn't be legit anyway. So this was a straight up fight where they both used all their abilities and Windu won.

Edited June 4, 2013 by RTCBrad

[LordFlasheart]

What you fail to realize, is that Sidious may have lost to Windu (Which only proves that Lucas doesn't have a subtle bone in his body). But he lived for another 23 years until endor, and then another 1-2 during Dark Empire. Palpatine continued to grow in power, whereas Windu was limited by death.

 

Windu was 2nd to Yoda, that is canon, but he might have overcome palpatine because he had one tool that could overcome a more powerful dark side user. But had he face Yoda or Luke in similar life or death circumstances, he would have been obliterated. So Palpatine and Yoda were fairly even matched absolute power in 19 BBY, yet Windu could beat Palpatine and not Yoda. Therefore you have to assume that it was the tool responsible for Windu's defeat of Palpatine.

 

As for your point that anyone who used Vaapad could have defeated Palpatine, this is true to the extent that the person would have to be a master of Vaapad or the form would consume them. They would have to be able to dance the fine edge between dark and light and not lose themself. That is why Windu and Sora Bulq were considered the Forms only masters, while Windu's apprentice Depa Billaba was proficient with it's use. Sora Bulq also fell to the Dark Side, so really there is only one true master of the form, nobody else had the correct mindset to dance the line. Therefore, we can only judge Windu properly by his power relative to Yoda and other Jedi and not Dark Side users who were weak to his style.

 

The only reason Windu didn't make my list (other than my assumption that Sidious let him win, which I still maintain would have been a better way to tell it and show just how cunning Sidious was), was that his power relative to the other Jedi of the Clone Wars era was indistinct. Was he closer to Yoda than the others which would put him closer to 4th rank than anywhere else, or was he that much farther behind Yoda that he like the other Jedi of the era just sort of fall off the chart.

Edited June 4, 2013 by LordFlasheart

[Wolfninjajedi]

To ah clear something up, Windu and Sidious were at an impass...and Windu only won due to circumstances that worked in his favor(well...kinda also worked in Sidious's favor too). So it wasn't really Vapaad that gave Windu the win, it was a combination of that plus other things that did.

[Aurbere]

Prove it, clearly yourself and Aubere are self declared authorities on the matter of the fictional star wars universe.

 

I have ironclad justification for each one.

 

Ironclad justification? Your list is very much messed up. There is no way to justify placing Mace Windu and Yoda above Sidious, both of whom are inferior to the Sith Lord. Unless you missed Dark Empire?

[Aurbere]

Yes, that is a feat I posted in that one particular thread I made regarding Sidious.

 

 

 

Good, good.

 

I noticed, but I feel that it needs repeating. 'Cause it's awesome.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Ironclad justification? Your list is very much messed up. There is no way to justify placing Mace Windu and Yoda above Sidious, both of whom are inferior to the Sith Lord. Unless you missed Dark Empire?

 

No one even needs to read Dark Empire, to get the fact Sidious is the most powerful lol. Its stated and proven elsewhere.

[Aurbere]

No one even needs to read Dark Empire, to get the fact Sidious is the most powerful lol. Its stated and proven elsewhere.

 

Yes, but Dark Empire is the most visually clear evidence that Sidious is the most powerful. The ROTS novel and other sources also show it, but that apparently isn't enough.

[Jandi]

This really is the dumbest topic in the history of SW discussions.

 

If you take into account the rampant one-upmanship of writers with their constant need to make their babies stronger than the last heroes and the fact that the power levels of force users have gotten completely out of hand you realize that "who is the most powerful elf of them all" is irrelevant. The Force powers the ones IT wants to power and, seemingly, WHEN it wants to do so.

 

Or, you can just say Luke and be done with it.

[Wolfninjajedi]

This really is the dumbest topic in the history of SW discussions.

 

If you take into account the rampant one-upmanship of writers with their constant need to make their babies stronger than the last heroes and the fact that the power levels of force users have gotten completely out of hand you realize that "who is the most powerful elf of them all" is irrelevant. The Force powers the ones IT wants to power and, seemingly, WHEN it wants to do so.

 

Or, you can just say Luke and be done with it.

 

I blame the Necro.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[RTCBrad]

Here is the thing;

 

Windu beat palps.

 

If they fought again Windu would still win.

 

And if they fought again Windu would still win.

 

Whenever they fight palps will encounter the exact problem that evidently he cannot overcome.

 

To me its very simple to see why you would place Windu above him.

 

Simple analogy for you, "Oh I lost the race but my car has a bigger engine so in the end I still won" if you are okay with that then fine, palps would be higher. But sadly the reality is regardless of anything else you lost. Winning is all that matters. I also just gave out some brilliant life advice, winning is all that matters.

Edited June 4, 2013 by RTCBrad

[Aurbere]

Here is the thing;

 

Windu beat palps.

 

If they fought again Windu would still win.

 

And if they fought again Windu would still win.

 

Whenever they fight palps will encounter the exact problem that evidently he cannot overcome.

 

To me its very simple to see why you would place Windu above him.

 

Simple analogy for you, "Oh I lost the race but my car has a bigger engine so in the end I still won" if you are okay with that then fine, palps would be higher. But sadly the reality is regardless of anything else you lost. Winning is all that matters. I also just gave out some brilliant life advice, winning is all that matters.

 

Windu won in straight up lightsaber combat (even though it was a stalemate for most of the battle). If this were top 10 duelists then they would be equal. However, this is for most powerful force users. Sidious has proven himself to be more powerful than Mace Windu. Mace Windu has proven himself to be equal to Sidious in lightsaber combat.

[RTCBrad]

Windu won in straight up lightsaber combat (even though it was a stalemate for most of the battle). If this were top 10 duelists then they would be equal. However, this is for most powerful force users. Sidious has proven himself to be more powerful than Mace Windu. Mace Windu has proven himself to be equal to Sidious in lightsaber combat.

 

How do you define strength if not by the victors?

 

To me a "force user" is the whole package, it takes into account everything especially when you are asking which ones are the best.

 

Assuming I was going to go along with the idea of force users and duelists not being the same, why would Sidious be Mace's duelist equal when he lost to mace. He even half killed himself using force lightning which he is the most powerful user of, and still couldn't overpower Mace.

 

Everyone on this forum gets so hung up on the "most powerful sith lord the galaxy had ever known" quote that they are blind to what is right in front of them.

 

@The guy that said Windu wasn't in the top 10 that's just insane you can debate his position among the top 5 I suppose depending on how you see things but no way can you debate him not being in top 10 at all lol.

Edited June 4, 2013 by RTCBrad

[Aurbere]

How do you define strength if not by the victors?

 

To me a "force user" is the whole package, it takes into account everything especially when you are asking which ones are the best.

 

Assuming I was going to go along with the idea of force users and duelists not being the same, why would Sidious be Mace's duelist equal when he lost to mace. He even half killed himself using force lightning which he is the most powerful user of, and still couldn't overpower Mace.

 

Everyone on this forum gets so hung up on the "most powerful sith lord the galaxy had ever known" quote that they are blind to what is right in front of them.

 

@The guy that said Windu wasn't in the top 10 that's just insane you can debate his position among the top 5 I suppose depending on how you see things but no way can you debate him not being in top 10 at all lol.

 

Read the ROTS novel. They were at an impasse until Mace saw Palpatine's shatterpoint (which actually turned out to be Anakin's fear). Then Mace Windu was almost killed by Palpatine's Force lightning, which was bending Mace's lightsaber. Mace Windu was about to die before Palpatine decided to relent. He even notes that continuing to reflect the lightning was beyond Vaapad.

 

In other words, Mace would have been dead no matter what.

[RTCBrad]

Read the ROTS novel. They were at an impasse until Mace saw Palpatine's shatterpoint (which actually turned out to be Anakin's fear). Then Mace Windu was almost killed by Palpatine's Force lightning, which was bending Mace's lightsaber. Mace Windu was about to die before Palpatine decided to relent. He even notes that continuing to reflect the lightning was beyond Vaapad.

 

In other words, Mace would have been dead no matter what.

 

Honestly you are clutching at straws, didn't GL himself confirm that Windu beat Palpatine? He relented because he had to, I assume you are also of the opinion that Sidious only got in that position because he wanted to manipulate Anakin?

[sell-dog]

How do you define strength if not by the victors?

 

To me a "force user" is the whole package, it takes into account everything especially when you are asking which ones are the best.

 

Everyone on this forum gets so hung up on the "most powerful sith lord the galaxy had ever known" quote that they are blind to what is right in front of them.

 

Nope, external factors come into play not least of which being Anakin is clearly a fool. And Obi-Wan didn't lose to Dooku, he was simply incapacitated for plot reasons surrounding Anakin. Those 3 are more complicated than the circumstances of Sidious, Windu and Yoda

 

 

I have an honest question as to your logic.

 

You say a "force user" is the whole package. However in your treatment of the comparison between Sidious and Mace it seems you are considering only the lightsaber battle between the two and allowing no other feats/powers by Sidious or Mace from other sources. Then whenever someone will state something Sidious did in a source not named Ep. III you are immediately dismissing this claim as "fanboyism" then referring strictly back to your Mace beat Sid in Ep. III arguement. While I am not necessarily saying I consider this an improper approach, later when tunewalker mentioned that Obi-wan beat Anakin you immediately listed some reasons strictly related to your personal opinions (ie: regardless of whether or not Anakin is the protagonist, Dooku still beat Obi-Wan twice. Also stating that Anakin is a fool is your personal observation and opinion, not necessarily a canonical fact.) to dismiss tunewalker's argument. So in your comparison of Anakin and Obi-Wan you allow other factors (your opinions) to justify why the transitivity of Anakin>Dooku>Obi-Wan holds even though in Ep. III Obi-Wan defeats Anakin but when other posters are using other factors (Multiple SW sources) to justify why Sid > Yoda > Mace it seems to be automatically dismissed and referring only to the Ep. III duel. Does this seem contradictory or no?

Edited June 4, 2013 by sell-dog

[sell-dog]

 

If you take into account the rampant one-upmanship of writers with their constant need to make their babies stronger than the last heroes and the fact that the power levels of force users have gotten completely out of hand you realize that "who is the most powerful elf of them all" is irrelevant. The Force powers the ones IT wants to power and, seemingly, WHEN it wants to do so.

 

 

Given a couple posts between you and I on the SW novels into a movie thread, I had a feeling this post was coming