Sorc Heals 5.3 is terrible

[Leadplayer]

1) Scoundrels have very high and heavy sustain and AoE heals, that's what they are supposed to be best at. They don't need more burst. If they could burst heal, what would be the point of other healers? Every healer should have it's strengths and it's weaknesses, that's what is balance.

 

2) Half of scoundrel's abilities are instant, that's good enough. And you can boost your mobility with some rotation changes easily.

 

3) If you heal correctly, you won't be close to no heals AND successfully heal through all the stuff (on both commando and scoundrel). They have easy energy regen with diagnostic scan and kolto shot fillers! If you DO have such a problem, it's just a l2p issue. And have you even played sage heals after the last patch? You need to use Vindicate after every 2-3 heals or you will get too low. And when you do start spamming for burst and go super low, you will need a lot of time to get back to full force with healing trance -> 3x vindicate, healing trance -> 3x vindicate. Sage is in a pretty fair spot right now, only a clueless person would nerf it even more.

 

This is very true, there should be no class that has great Burst,Sustained and AOE heals or dps. A huge part of setting up a progression group or a pvp group is having the proper heal/dps classes in your group. Knowing what your class does best and doing your specific job is one of the best parts of playing in a group. if your Job is Bursting down adds, sustained damage on the boss, or burst heal a tank back from the brink of death or keeping 2 or 3 dps alive as they are taking constant damage. This is something I find people forgetting about and wanting their class to be able to do everything. As most of the complainers found out when Galactic Command came out, that the end game gear they wanted and cried for so much without actually needing to run harder endgame content did not make them great raiders all the sudden. Dunno if its just me but the overall player ability seemed to have dropped a **** ton since the 2.* days.

Edited August 3, 2017 by Leadplayer

[FerkWork]

This is very true, there should be no class that has great Burst,Sustained and AOE heals or dps. A huge part of setting up a progression group or a pvp group is having the proper heal/dps classes in your group. Knowing what your class does best and doing your specific job is one of the best parts of playing in a group. if your Job is Bursting down adds, sustained damage on the boss, or burst heal a tank back from the brink of death or keeping 2 or 3 dps alive as they are taking constant damage. This is something I find people forgetting about and wanting their class to be able to do everything. As most of the complainers found out when Galactic Command came out, that the end game gear they wanted and cried for so much without actually needing to run harder endgame content did not make them great raiders all the sudden. Dunno if its just me but the overall player ability seemed to have dropped a **** ton since the 2.* days.

 

I mean it should be quite apparent that skill has dropped. 2 years of Singleplayer content, 3.0 blunders, negilence, a gearing system that rewards grind over skill and even now a trickle of MMO content has pushed most skilled players away along with most of the population.

Edited August 3, 2017 by FerkWork

[NeImporte]

I will admit most of this is anecdotal (my observations). What I would like after you read my whining, is how you end game HM/NiM sorc/sages are staying up with heals put out by other classes. I'm seeing 2-4k less HPS (and yes I'm referring to StarParse) that I'm used to putting out. I'm geared 248/246 with set bonuses and run in a HM ops group. I'm healing against an Ops healer with mostly 242 gear (or lower) and am getting spanked in the Parses (this is a new development). I followed BANT for most patches previous to this one, I'm now utilizing Vicadins guide (but it isn't helping).

 

I never had problems with Force before, and I rarely have problems now (a little more planning and using Vindicate)

I never had problems with mobility and still don't.

I never had problems keeping up with other classes of healers in StarParse and now I do.

I've tried changing from balanced alactriy/crit to heavy crit to heavy alacrity - I'm not seeing an appreciable difference in HPS numbers.

I've tried using the cast timer abilities more (deliverance/benevolence) because pre-patch I was mostly Rejuv/Healing Trance/Wandering Mend/Salvation. I used the "nerfed" abilities less than I used to and I'm not seeing a difference.

 

I'm not whining about PvP, I'm not whining about being picked on, I'm not threatening to unsub... I JUST WANT TO KNOW WHAT I'M DOING WRONG TO MEET THESE NUMBERS THAT I'M SUPPOSED TO BE EQUAL TO OTHER HEALERS?!?!

 

Help a brutha out! PLEASE!

[LordTurin]

I will admit most of this is anecdotal (my observations). What I would like after you read my whining, is how you end game HM/NiM sorc/sages are staying up with heals put out by other classes. I'm seeing 2-4k less HPS (and yes I'm referring to StarParse) that I'm used to putting out. I'm geared 248/246 with set bonuses and run in a HM ops group. I'm healing against an Ops healer with mostly 242 gear (or lower) and am getting spanked in the Parses (this is a new development). I followed BANT for most patches previous to this one, I'm now utilizing Vicadins guide (but it isn't helping).

 

I never had problems with Force before, and I rarely have problems now (a little more planning and using Vindicate)

I never had problems with mobility and still don't.

I never had problems keeping up with other classes of healers in StarParse and now I do.

I've tried changing from balanced alactriy/crit to heavy crit to heavy alacrity - I'm not seeing an appreciable difference in HPS numbers.

I've tried using the cast timer abilities more (deliverance/benevolence) because pre-patch I was mostly Rejuv/Healing Trance/Wandering Mend/Salvation. I used the "nerfed" abilities less than I used to and I'm not seeing a difference.

 

I'm not whining about PvP, I'm not whining about being picked on, I'm not threatening to unsub... I JUST WANT TO KNOW WHAT I'M DOING WRONG TO MEET THESE NUMBERS THAT I'M SUPPOSED TO BE EQUAL TO OTHER HEALERS?!?!

 

Help a brutha out! PLEASE!

 

My HM groups best Revan pull last night (3rd floor, 7:45) had our mando healer hit 7.951 ehps, and our sage hit 6,079 ehps and 1,526 aps, for a total of 7,605, which is a pretty small difference. Most of the other pulls we did were about the same difference.

 

As far as keeping up with other healers in starparse, is your entire group in SP? Remember that APS will only be calculated correctly if your entire group is in SP, so if you are the only one in it, your "true" number (ehps+aps) will be around 1k higher than what SP is saying.

 

As far as everything else goes, your best bet is to just keep practicing. It is definitely very different, and definitely weaker than it used to be (probably weaker than it should tbh, but operatives are going to get nerfed in 5.4, and I'd be surprised if mercs don't follow in 5.5).

 

Finally, remember that HPS isn't really what to look at, its EHPS you should care about (not sure if you are, or just used the wrong term) because no healer should have higher HPS than a scoundrel (because of how its hots work and then insane amount of overhealing they have).

[NeImporte]

My HM groups best Revan pull last night (3rd floor, 7:45) had our mando healer hit 7.951 ehps, and our sage hit 6,079 ehps and 1,526 aps, for a total of 7,605, which is a pretty small difference. Most of the other pulls we did were about the same difference.

 

As far as keeping up with other healers in starparse, is your entire group in SP? Remember that APS will only be calculated correctly if your entire group is in SP, so if you are the only one in it, your "true" number (ehps+aps) will be around 1k higher than what SP is saying.

 

As far as everything else goes, your best bet is to just keep practicing. It is definitely very different, and definitely weaker than it used to be (probably weaker than it should tbh, but operatives are going to get nerfed in 5.4, and I'd be surprised if mercs don't follow in 5.5).

 

Finally, remember that HPS isn't really what to look at, its EHPS you should care about (not sure if you are, or just used the wrong term) because no healer should have higher HPS than a scoundrel (because of how its hots work and then insane amount of overhealing they have).

 

My entire group *IS* in SP. My EHPS numbers are usually lower but closer than the difference in HPS numbers, I was only using HPS as a "for instance". I'm not sure what APS is? is that shielding? I thought one of those numbers was APM? (Actions per minute? - tied to alacrity?) I'm willing to keep trying - I'm just not sure what ELSE to try... And my HPS was never the same, but it was a LOT closer!

[AdjeYo]

My entire group *IS* in SP. My EHPS numbers are usually lower but closer than the difference in HPS numbers, I was only using HPS as a "for instance". I'm not sure what APS is? is that shielding? I thought one of those numbers was APM? (Actions per minute? - tied to alacrity?) I'm willing to keep trying - I'm just not sure what ELSE to try... And my HPS was never the same, but it was a LOT closer!

 

APS stand for absorbtion per second, so for Sorcs that's Static Barrier. And it's fairly important to add that up to your EHPS to get a clear idea of how much you're "healing". Since all damage you absorb, you won't have to heal later on.

[LordTurin]

APS stand for absorbtion per second, so for Sorcs that's Static Barrier. And it's fairly important to add that up to your EHPS to get a clear idea of how much you're "healing". Since all damage you absorb, you won't have to heal later on.

 

This exactly. Add your EHPS to APS and compare that to your co-healers EHPS.

 

If you give us those numbers (and what fights) we can probably help more (fights with lots of AOE damage like Malaphar or Underlurker scoundrels are amazing in).

[WooduckAUS]

Help a brutha out! PLEASE!

 

I agree with the replies I've seen above.

 

HPS is a completely useless number and something you should NOT be interested in comparing. EHPS is the number you should be worrying about and *if* you play your class right (you would be surprised the number of people who think they are God at a class and actually have no idea what they are doing, so always be open to help/ideas) EHPS is more about learning fights and predicting incoming damage and then utilizing your classes abilities to efficiently heal the incoming damage. Time and time again I see healers using the wrong heals for a situation during pug runs.

 

Bubble/absorb healing is something to make sure you are calculating correctly and take into consideration because that is 100% effective healing ALL the time.

 

Whilst becoming more efficient with your healer, keep in mind Sage/Sorcs received the first round of nerf for heals. So at the moment, sages are behind the other 2 classes (all things being equal). Devs have indicated that all healers will be brought back to their "target" HPS Mark, which means the other 2 classes will be nerfed soon enough.

 

For reference, I heal NiM with all 3 classes but I've been mando healing with a sage partner through nim raids for the last 12 months. Pre-nerf we were always close for EHPS. Depending on the fight, sage would be higher, others Mando would be higher. Post nerf, sage has dropped 2-3k EHPS behind.

 

Looks like scoundrels are up next and it's only a matter of time for the mando's too.

 

Be patient and master your class.

[NeImporte]

Ok - so Master Blaster tonight (Veteran Mode):

 

9586 HPS, 5682 EHPS, 1302 APS for myself (seer healing) with mostly >246 gear with 6 piece set bonus

8031 HPS, 5967 EHPS, 0 APS (for combat medic) mostly <242 gear with 6 piece set bonus

 

Tanks were at 4457 DTPS (shield) and 5419 DTPS (defense) - the dps were anywhere from 1236 to 2190 DTPS, the healers were 2153 (me) 2025 (other healer) DTPS

 

Let me know if there are other numbers or parses or whatever I can provide to "HELP YOU HELP ME!"

[LordTurin]

Ok - so Master Blaster tonight (Veteran Mode):

 

9586 HPS, 5682 EHPS, 1302 APS for myself (seer healing) with mostly >246 gear with 6 piece set bonus

8031 HPS, 5967 EHPS, 0 APS (for combat medic) mostly <242 gear with 6 piece set bonus

 

Tanks were at 4457 DTPS (shield) and 5419 DTPS (defense) - the dps were anywhere from 1236 to 2190 DTPS, the healers were 2153 (me) 2025 (other healer) DTPS

 

Let me know if there are other numbers or parses or whatever I can provide to "HELP YOU HELP ME!"

 

Did you kill it?

 

Regardless, even if you didn't, it was not your fault. You did effectively 1k more heals than your co-healer (ehps+aps) so it was either them not healing it, or tanks/dps taking too much damage. Last option is obviously both healers didn't do enough, but I don't think that was the case (and honestly, I have not done M&B in 5.0, so I don't want to speculate where issues are, just saying that if your heals are an issue, they are not the main issue).

 

If you killed it, then clearly you are totally fine.

[WooduckAUS]

Ok - so Master Blaster tonight (Veteran Mode):

 

Apart from raw numbers, you haven't given us much to work with.

 

I'm assuming that you guys weren't able to clear it and you're frustrated that the "under geared" mando was too close to you with respect to EHPS...?

 

Assuming you are both playing your class right, those numbers sound about right with respect to comparable healing figures to relative gear. Mando should end up higher than you given the same gear and skill level. Mando's will get nerfed soon, I am sure of it, so don't sweat that.

 

I haven't healed MB in a while and can't recall raw numbers off the top of my head but that fight is a MASSIVE mechanics check, not a heal check. Probably still one of the toughest mechanic checks in the game. So if you can heal your group through most of the other HM/Vet boss fights, I would put money down on the mechanics killing the group, not the healers.

 

Was there a particular phase that was wiping the group?

 

Obv if you cleared it, then life is good and the numbers look about right.

[FerkWork]

Apart from raw numbers, you haven't given us much to work with.

 

I'm assuming that you guys weren't able to clear it and you're frustrated that the "under geared" mando was too close to you with respect to EHPS...?

 

Assuming you are both playing your class right, those numbers sound about right with respect to comparable healing figures to relative gear. Mando should end up higher than you given the same gear and skill level. Mando's will get nerfed soon, I am sure of it, so don't sweat that.

 

I haven't healed MB in a while and can't recall raw numbers off the top of my head but that fight is a MASSIVE mechanics check, not a heal check. Probably still one of the toughest mechanic checks in the game. So if you can heal your group through most of the other HM/Vet boss fights, I would put money down on the mechanics killing the group, not the healers.

 

Was there a particular phase that was wiping the group?

 

Obv if you cleared it, then life is good and the numbers look about right.

 

To be fair if they hadn't killed it, The burn phase is for a VM fight is pretty heal intense for a VM level fight and healer although it's inversely proportional to the DPS numbers. Especially since the previous phases aren't heal intensive at all.

Edited August 8, 2017 by FerkWork

[WooduckAUS]

To be fair if they hadn't killed it, The burn phase is for a VM fight is pretty heal intense for a VM level fight and healer although it's inversely proportional to the DPS numbers. Especially since the previous phases aren't heal intensive at all.

 

Not sure exactly what you are trying to say here but HM/VM fights have not been healing intensive for quite some time, which is why the devs are nerfing healing output. Hell, there are only a couple of NiM boss fights that 2 competent healers actually need to pay attention to...

 

I haven't healed master blaster with the new tier gear but from what I remember, the last burn phase of the fight was the only time the 2 healers had to actually pay attention. With the new tier of gear, I'm guessing that would be even less now. The only time the healers were put under any significant stress were when mechanics were not done properly, ie mechanic check, not healing check. If that is what was wiping him, then the group needs work on mechanics.

 

The whole fight is about positioning, more than anything else. So without knowing what was causing the wipes, hard to say if it was healing or mechanic related. If everything was perfect with mechanics and you still couldn't keep people up, then obv that is a healing issue. But without more information, it's impossible to say. Raw healing numbers on that fight don't tell the full story. The fact that they were relatively even only shows that either both healers are bad or mechanics are being missed. My money is on mechanics until we get more information.

 

Missing dps checks are obvious. Why the raid is dying, requires a little more investigation. Telling the healers to heal harder, isn't always going to fix the problem.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'm a supporter of nerfing heals across the board, heals has been overtuned for a while now. Provided it's done right.....

[NeImporte]

Thank you all VERY much for the quick responses. To answer some asked (and unasked) questions:

 

We didn't clear it. It wasn't a healing problem, it was a mechanics problem (and occasionally an RNG problem - i.e. me not having a grenade when I rezzed, getting a grenade right as they accepted, and blowing us both up).

 

I gave you the numbers because, yes - I was worried a lesser geared healer was matching me (this night I seemed to have upped my game). If I am where I need to be, then I am happy to keep slogging along trying to master the mechanics of MB (we get to the red waves - phase3? with the guy doing the flame circle thing) and I wasn't concentrating on the tank enough and wasn't in range often enough... so right now we're stymied by the mechanics as you've said.

 

I'm happy enough with your assessment that I'll keep trying (and update you when we down MB ).

 

thanks again!

[verfallen]

Apart from raw numbers, you haven't given us much to work with.

 

I'm assuming that you guys weren't able to clear it and you're frustrated that the "under geared" mando was too close to you with respect to EHPS...?

 

Assuming you are both playing your class right, those numbers sound about right with respect to comparable healing figures to relative gear. Mando should end up higher than you given the same gear and skill level. Mando's will get nerfed soon, I am sure of it, so don't sweat that.

 

I haven't healed MB in a while and can't recall raw numbers off the top of my head but that fight is a MASSIVE mechanics check, not a heal check. Probably still one of the toughest mechanic checks in the game. So if you can heal your group through most of the other HM/Vet boss fights, I would put money down on the mechanics killing the group, not the healers.

 

Was there a particular phase that was wiping the group?

 

Obv if you cleared it, then life is good and the numbers look about right.

 

in general, even "heal check" in this games were vastly under the number 2 good healers could put in. Great healers could carry NiM group with the tank using skank gear to help the much tougher dps check, thats how much extra hps was availaible to them.

 

I literally dpsed nearly 2k while keeping people up with roughly 5k ehps in HM styrak with an operative (arguably the worse dps out of the healers)

 

The game does needs some changes in regard to the challenge each role face, but thats an whole other matter than just class balancing.

[FerkWork]

Not sure exactly what you are trying to say here but HM/VM fights have not been healing intensive for quite some time, which is why the devs are nerfing healing output. Hell, there are only a couple of NiM boss fights that 2 competent healers actually need to pay attention to...

 

I haven't healed master blaster with the new tier gear but from what I remember, the last burn phase of the fight was the only time the 2 healers had to actually pay attention. With the new tier of gear, I'm guessing that would be even less now. The only time the healers were put under any significant stress were when mechanics were not done properly, ie mechanic check, not healing check. If that is what was wiping him, then the group needs work on mechanics.

 

The whole fight is about positioning, more than anything else. So without knowing what was causing the wipes, hard to say if it was healing or mechanic related. If everything was perfect with mechanics and you still couldn't keep people up, then obv that is a healing issue. But without more information, it's impossible to say. Raw healing numbers on that fight don't tell the full story. The fact that they were relatively even only shows that either both healers are bad or mechanics are being missed. My money is on mechanics until we get more information.

 

Missing dps checks are obvious. Why the raid is dying, requires a little more investigation. Telling the healers to heal harder, isn't always going to fix the problem.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'm a supporter of nerfing heals across the board, heals has been overtuned for a while now. Provided it's done right.....

 

My point is that comparative to the rest of the fight and any other VM fight, the burn itself is a step up in healing for groups just starting out in VM. Overall healing perhaps not an issue but rathe that is newer healers being proactive with healing and synergy with the tanks themselves than output. Granted I said the more Dps the less the Healers have to do as with any fight. But if Heals are unprepared for that level of proactive healing it can be more difficult and lead to problems especially if Dps are a bit slow. But maybe it is mechanics but I give them benefit of the doubt and stepping into their shoes for a moment as another possibility.

 

As for the whole overhealing thing, yes Heal checks hare gone but it's rehashed content anyways so I don't care if it is harder or easier it's still rehashed and that's after killing them all two expacs in a row post pre buff nerf whatever it changes every update but it's still rehashed content. Not like there's more than a handful of actual capable teams left anyways waiting for that NiM Tyth whenever or if lol. With such a casual and less skilled player base all the changes just highlight that more lol.

Edited August 9, 2017 by FerkWork

[Zyntharion]

that is a particularly bad example because drop it like it's hoth, who got the world first dread guard, specifically switched from a merc to a sorc (without heal set bonus) to get that kill. to get the tfb kill death and taxes did dg on hm so they could skip and move on. maybe viable wasn't the best word to use there since the best players in game were able make do, but they were still not as good as sorcs. in the end believe whatever you want.

 

I just wanted to say, you are wrong. The reason DiLiH switched from our regular Operative healer to a sorc during progression (Asa bless his soul) was because we literally didn't have any other healer at the time that could do even remotedly good apart from Avlurks our operative who raided form australia and couldn't make it to our raiding half the time. It had nothing to do with the class. Asa even did a ****tiy job but good enough to make Nim able to do the rest of the healing on his merc. We even had a Juggernaut Vengeance dpsing for christ sake.

 

I was the sniper Emila in the kill. I was also the Sorc Zyntharia on the Styrak kill. I switched to sorc becaus I had previous experience with high end content healing in WoW and already healed as a sorc in Swtor for a good chunk of the first year. Asa went back to dpsing on a powertech with the switch. Nim still healed on his merc and we never had healing issues even when I was really undergeared due to my reroll. You people in this game are too fixated on parses when 90% of the playerbase isn't even good enough to see the full effect of a nerf at high end to make it matter. Everyone was saying Dreadguards was impossible. We did it with a ****** comp that nobody in our guild gave a **** about. At this point I don't even know why I am writing this apart from the fact that your statement is wrong. Don't use it as a point for an arguement when you don't even know the truth.

[jamsterofwbb]

that is a particularly bad example because drop it like it's hoth, who got the world first dread guard, specifically switched from a merc to a sorc (without heal set bonus) to get that kill. to get the tfb kill death and taxes did dg on hm so they could skip and move on. maybe viable wasn't the best word to use there since the best players in game were able make do, but they were still not as good as sorcs. in the end believe whatever you want.

 

Ummm, we didn't switch out the Merc...