Game system/engine update.

[Jett-Rinn]

You are selectively cherry picking to support your case. Setting aside the cherries......

 

http://gs.statcounter.com/os-version-market-share/windows/desktop/worldwide (and you have buttons below to look by region, but there is little difference in World Wide, EU, NA split numbers.

 

Data clearly shows that Win 7 still dominates, and a lot of Win 7 installs are 32 bit. They also remain supported by Microsoft. Clearly Vista and XP are essentially low enough to be considered abandoned, and are no longer supported...... but Win7 + Win 8/8.1 still dominate the market. Win 10 is simply not dominate yet, and likely won't be for several years.

 

As for DXn..... a lot of older systems are still very capable of running this MMO and are running with older graphics cards that do not support DX12, and in many cases not even DX11.

 

 

I know you want to pretend that everyone has tossed their old hardware and software for the latest and greatest (which is a requirement of your position here) but it just is not true.

 

Andryah......how the heck are you?

Still throwing the monkey wrench of logic and facts into the conversation I see? These days I make my point, and laugh at the consequences of contributing to the GF.......you have more patience than I do.

[mmmbuddah]

ESO and FF keep my CPU quiet while in SWTOR my PC frequently goes into fan overdrive. Since playing SWTOR I'm now on my 3rd gfx card. Never had any of the shadow/shading options turned on. Planets like Belsavis make the PC work especially hard.

 

Updating the engine has given other games the ability for consoles to play which has made a huge impact on populations. While STO the additions had minimal impact FF often has wait times to get into your server. In this day and age having exclusively PC only MMO is probably not wise.

 

I never understood that either. , I had went through 3 gtx690s in 4 years. If it is because of SWTOR, who knows, but they all broke, consistantly. Now I have a gtx1050ti and it runs at max 35 ° now =P. But you are right, belsavis and alderaan are both fan crack. And recently the performance on those planets has plummeted....No idea why.

[mmmbuddah]

I think you are confusing the current Hero engine with the early alpha that they released many years ago and was licensed in it's unfinished state by Bioware and then further developed from there. For all intents and purposes, it's a proprietary engine now, based on a framework of an early and not fully functional alpha release.

 

The issue with moving to a 64bit DX12 engine is that it would obsolete a lot of perfectly good computers in the current player base. A true self-inflicted shot to the foot for the studio. Hence they would in fact have to provide two engines, one 64 and one 32 (or a very cleverly designed engine that can switch and serve based on the players OS), as well as full range of compatibility from DX9-DX12. That is a huge investment to make.... particularly when they are essentially using an internal engine which is loosely based on an early alpha of the Hero engine.

 

Also... you made a case for this being a 4-6 million player game if they simply ported to additional platforms like the various consoles, Mac, etc. Sorry... but that is complete made up fantasy, with no basis in fact and no demonstrable precedent in the MMO market place.

 

It's not the best engine in the MMO market, nor is it the worst. It's greatest sin is that it does not take full advantage of the latest generation hardware and OS. By the same token, it plays on a very wide range of player systems which is much more likely to create access ease for players then your suggestions/demands.

 

Considering games like fantasy star universe still have players on console, I am sure that is not an exaggeration. Xb and ps have a LOT of players. The hurdle would be the controls.

[mmmbuddah]

EXACTLY. A system that can play EA Battlefront/II or ES or MASS EF that supports DX 12/11. So thats MAC / Win10/8.1/8 XBONE/PS4

 

Dont forget win 7 64bit. That is the best gaming OS for pc still. 10 and 8 are not meant for gaming.

[Forren-Midosea]

Considering games like fantasy star universe still have players on console, I am sure that is not an exaggeration. Xb and ps have a LOT of players. The hurdle would be the controls.

 

We could finally get the consoles with full support for keyboard and mice )

[IntegrationArch]

We could finally get the consoles with full support for keyboard and mice )

 

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/05/developers-can-look-forward-to-keyboard-support-on-xbox-one-games/

 

https://www.howtogeek.com/250624/how-to-connect-a-mouse-and-keyboard-to-your-playstation-4/

Edited July 7, 2017 by IntegrationArch

[Icykill_]

It is you that needs to research better.

 

Any discussion about SWTOR in the context of the Hero engine begins 8 years ago when they purchased the license to an completely unfinished Hero engine and then built upon it from there. It would be much more accurate to just acknowledge that the game engine for SWTOR is loosely based on a very early and incomplete version of the Hero engine from 8 years ago. Hence.. it is a custom engine, with a loose lineage back to an old Hero alpha.

 

To date, the studio has never disclosed the changes, state of development, and evolution plans for their now custom engine... loosely based on a Hero framework.

 

If you think what Hero is today and what is coming through beta = and upgrade path for SWTOR ... you are very mistaken.

 

This has been discussed to death over the years. The engine is what it is, and there is no upgrade path to the latest Hero releases. Period.. full stop. The studio has however continued to improve the engine on the client side for sure. Server side assets.. most likely as well.. but they offer zero transparency about the server side, so no way to tell for sure.

 

I agree with most of this because its true. 😉

Im seeing a few posts from others in this thread trying to decipher and read too much into Keith's pod cast. None what he said has anything to do with upgrading the engine or porting it to consoles etc. Keith was referring to the discussion surrounding population density, mergers and cross server. His reference to it not being a problem with the Hero engine was concerning X server and nothing else. His reference to new servers or the capability of the new hardware was also in reference to that subject. There is nothing in anything he says in that pod cast that supports any of these theories regarding upgrading the engine, 64bit, console or my favourite one, moving it to a frostbite engine

As Andryah has pointed out, the Hero Engine available from its makers is extremely different from this one. It's so different infact that Bioware can't use any of the patches, updates or new features that the Hero guys release. It's one of the main reasons they can't add 64bit,

I've played this game since it started, I followed its development prior to that, I also work in IT and I'm always researching and reading technical news that can only be found off the beaten track away from mainstream consumer gamer media. It's usually industry media that most gamers would find boring. Things to do with swtor interest me so I always remember when I come across anything to do with it,

Over the years I've come across small bits off info that refer to swtor and their use of the hero engine. That info by itself doesn't always say a lot, but when you put it all together it paints a picture.

As an example, I did read one report that said when the original swtor programmers left the game the new guys had trouble working out what they'd actually done. They even tried to get the Hero guys into help them, but they'd customised it so much the Hero guys couldn't or wouldn't offer them support.

This is what happens when you take a Alpha version of a program and customise it. Why they even thought using an alpha version was a good idea in the first place is beyond me. But that's the situation the game is in.

Could they port to another engine, probably with a lot of work and money. But it would probably be easier and cost less to just make a new game from scratch. There is no way they are going to pump that sort of money into this game. It's already running on the smell of and oily rag.

[IntegrationArch]

So yes HeroEngine mainline supports DX11 and soon will support DX12 (or it's future child) and it costs like $75k (software) on BW's servers. So that allows BW to run db on Oracle, or open source MYSQL with pieces on schema-less NOSQL,*BSON JSON, Cassandra or Mongo, perhaps call pieces on Amazon RDS - which is all transparent to us. But compelling because all those db's have a plethra of tools and on shore/ near shore db migration discount 'consultancies' which are experts at doing proven and successful and fast db and platform migrations. Why do I know this? Because I use them too.

 

HOWEVER if you say the game smells of oily rag (compaired to say Battlefront/II) and due to unfixed years of bugs...

 

Then BW has to (pick one):

 

1. Soon do the right thing don't leave the rakghoul dog in the middle of the road with a broken leg. Announce shutdown because all of us subs leave anyway, new players won't come to XP certified game, or a reduced sub rate or

 

2. As you say, Forklift replace with Frostbite and redo everything, perhaps salvage some wav file actors and cut scenes, do flat file db imports but game will go offline and they come back as Frostbite (servers down for months would be risky) at that point it fits in the the DICE Origin Launcher too and fixes all those issues. But wait this is BWA.

 

or

 

3. (this compelling discussion) BW reutalizes everything they can, reuse as much content, graphics, artwork, missions, etc, and subcontract a TIGER TEAM using SDLC to remap pointers and call routines as required to replace DX9 subsystem with DX11. Consider getting on mainline or not, could be good to do so. This work would clear as many game bugs as possible on the way. tracking head gear would work clean. This work will later support Win32/64 hybrid over a path to DX12 once Hero's ready to go in 2018. Add dolby vision yada yada 80 fps 4K and we are all in our church for another 10 years, happy day. Why because I know 60% of DX12 exists in DX11 and there is a known path

 

DX11 monetary justification: Why does BWA wish to squander 1M subs/$150M+ gross this game already has? But this game with 4M subs/$600M playing on option 3 on XBONE/PS4/PS4P/AOS/PC32/PC64 W7/W10/MAC/AOS (* Initially consoles use usb keyboard and mice because that is coming fast)

 

The trick is to commit with a clear promise communication to the player base as soon as they can, definilty before Halloween and xmas season. The idea we keep most of the toons but get 4K 80 fps is a very strong retention and come back carrot. Also how many MMORPG'S have $1/2B in subs and 4M subscribers? It 's much more diversified now. BW could also use what they build for all types of other new games WIN/WIN EA/BW and WIN/WIN for old/new players.

 

Number are low ball because market share of global games s $99B and growing exponentially.

 

There is a valid and strong justificaiton from Disney Licensing too. A beautiful SWTOR will continue to be a cross marketing ecosystem for Theatrical/netflix & WaltDisney Star Wars Land 2019 and support excitement on as many screens as possilbe with option 3. It won't conflict with Battlefront II because it's a totally seperate era and we all know SWTOR is more artistic and social and has all the lore and crafting and missions.

Edited July 7, 2017 by IntegrationArch

[Kyuuu]

it will never happen, at this point i would settle for 64bit client just so the game ****** engine doesnt have to sync two exe together which adds huge hit to performance in first place, but at last that will never happen just like updating the version of scaleform swtor uses for it GUI would fix alot GUI issue cause the old version they using had issue with performance.

 

Devs said it once to swtor blog interview they had years back, The game engine is **** and we know it, we cant/ dont know how to fix it, what they didnt say back then was they were just gona compound this issue as years go.

 

The only performance increase the managed that was really noticeable imo was for shadows, they are no wheres close to as big of resource hog they use to be. and think most that came from fact i went from 920 to 6700k

Edited July 7, 2017 by Kyuuu

[IntegrationArch]

So just give up and move on?

[fushnchips]

I just hope that the game will continue on but the mistakes and decisions from the older teams have really made it an up hill climb for the current guys they have 2 options 1. let the game run it's course as they most likely will 2. over the last 3 years they have been building SWTOR 2 and on another engine other than that frostbite.

 

They can release SWTOR 2 and still keep SWTOR running with just a couple of servers i mean I have had a blast of being a sub for 5 1/2 years straight but even I have my limitations and a thing called the end of the road.

[IntegrationArch]

3 years lol

[fushnchips]

3 years lol

 

Have you seen what they done with FFXIV and why it's called a realm reborn ?

[IntegrationArch]

Have you seen what they done with FFXIV and why it's called a realm reborn ?

 

FFXIV is about what we have now with cartoons and not 4k nor 64bit nor dx12

[Andryah]

So just give up and move on?

 

By all means..... continue to disregard the fact that the current engine is essentially a custom engine, coded and built over time by Bioware upon the framework of a very early and non-upgradeable alpha version of Hero from more then 8 years ago. There is NO interoperability or upgradeability with later releases of Hero, so all your clever use of buzz words and hand waving is off the mark and a waste of time because it is based on wrong assumptions on your part.

 

You really are not listening to anyone who tries to objectively describe what we have, AND, that what we have is not an off the shelf Hero deployment... not even close. Nor is it supported in any way by the Hero team. They sold the alpha as-is years ago with the understanding that Bioware would customize the crap out of it and that it was not forward compatible with newer releases of the Hero Engine.

 

So I think I am done wasting time responding to you.

Edited July 7, 2017 by Andryah

[IntegrationArch]

..... continue to disregard the fact that the current engine is essentially a custom engine, coded and built over time by Bioware upon the framework of a very early and non-upgradeable alpha version of Hero from more then 8 years ago.

 

Keith should bring in new talent or outsource it for reasonable money ($1M to $5M) and get it done since it's a potentially $600M Game Platform once it's running DX11. It's not the mars orbiter running tens of thousands of miles away it's just a game with no security or network problems to access. Everything is extensable and migratable especially with Visual Studio or HSL debuggers and migration consultancies which start with worse code and older code written randomly in another dead language offshore from Russian or China developers. But this one is domestic AND THE HAVE THE SOURCE CODE.

 

function Debug(message as string)

 

nodeToWhichMessageAppliesID as id = FindTheNodeIDICareAbout()

// in other words, what ever code you need to specify the ID you care about

 

$DEBUG.SendNotifyDebugMessageSpecificNode(YourSystemName, message, nodeToWhichMessageAppliesID)

.

function Debug(nodeToWhichMessageAppliesID as id, message)

$DEBUG.SendNotifyDebugMessageSpecificNode(YourSystemName, message, nodeToWhichMessageAppliesID)

.

 

You can't prove in 2017 it's even on the circa 2010 alpha pre-mainline branch now. All software packages are moded anyway, I have seen worse from the 90's or even in Cobal ported over to run in the cloud where everyone existing sat and watched it done. Software that's a pig and held together with xml paste and batch scripts often starts to fly and humm after you leverage modern tools, they could also reduce footprint and lower costs for sure.

 

Read this: (it just means SWTOR is on a branch of HeroEngine but it does not confirm you can't migrate it! )

 

 

If they withdrawl life support is a non technical decision, it's a political one from Disney or EA.

Edited July 7, 2017 by IntegrationArch

[fushnchips]

Keith should bring in new talent or outsource it for reasonable money ($1M to $5M) and get it done since it's a potentially $600M Game Platform once it's running DX11. It's not the mars orbiter running tens of thousands of miles away it's just a game with no security or network problems to access. Everything is extensable and migratable especially with Visual Studio or HSL debuggers and migration consultancies which start with worse code and older code written randomly in another dead language offshore from Russian or China developers. But this one is domestic AND THE HAVE THE SOURCE CODE.

 

function Debug(message as string)

 

nodeToWhichMessageAppliesID as id = FindTheNodeIDICareAbout()

// in other words, what ever code you need to specify the ID you care about

 

$DEBUG.SendNotifyDebugMessageSpecificNode(YourSystemName, message, nodeToWhichMessageAppliesID)

.

function Debug(nodeToWhichMessageAppliesID as id, message)

$DEBUG.SendNotifyDebugMessageSpecificNode(YourSystemName, message, nodeToWhichMessageAppliesID)

.

 

You can't prove in 2017 it's even on the circa 2010 alpha pre-mainline branch now. All software packages are moded anyway, I have seen worse from the 90's or even in Cobal ported over to run in the cloud where everyone existing sat and watched it done. Software that's a pig and held together with xml paste and batch scripts often starts to fly and humm after you leverage modern tools, they could also reduce footprint and lower costs for sure.

 

Read this: (it just means SWTOR is on a branch of HeroEngine but it does not confirm you can't migrate it! )

 

 

If they withdrawl life support is a non technical decision, it's a political one from Disney or EA.

 

you make me laugh end of the day walk away from this game like most of us do because of it's outdated structure and FFXIV is brilliant playing it at 4k and atleast it has DX 11.

[DreadtechSavant]

A game engine upgrade is fine but only if old PC's can still play the game. No point at all if it means players have to buy new computers to play it. I already have a PC that is starting to struggle with this game. Often some of the NPC's are invisible when attacking my character. Hate to think what it would be after a engine upgrade. On the other hand if it will have zero impact on computers playing this game no matter the age or windows system we have, all for a upgrade.

 

Assuming it's

A. cost effective for BW

and

B. it's viable, as in its actually possible for BW to do it.

Edited July 8, 2017 by DreadtechSavant

[HuaRya]

you make me laugh end of the day walk away from this game like most of us do because of it's outdated structure and FFXIV is brilliant playing it at 4k and atleast it has DX 11.

 

Brilliant ya think? I can't even stay awake with their no voice over dialogue and elevator musak 1990's Legend of Zelda music. Everyone with their cat ears and tails and the most boring 2 minute cooldown attacks. If it's DX 11 it certainly doesn't flaunt it like ESO does.