A preferred player’s perspective on Population decline

[Ratajack]

Ah the dismissive route. G'day sir! o7

 

As opposed to the dismissive route of "preferred deserve MORE for LESS, or even FREE, and it doesn't matter what others think or that those preferred players are likely not paying into the game NOW" route?

[Ratajack]

And a bunch of people ended up taking your place. By way of their cash shop.

 

Lord of the Rings online and Dungeons and Dragons online were both on the verge of closing for good when they decided to do the cash shop as a last-ditch effort to stay alive.

 

Yes some people got pissed off and left. But many more ended up trying the game and the money they brought in, by their developers own admission, from the cash shop far outweighed the yearly Revenue they were getting from subscribers beforehand.

 

It allowed them to start producing content again and even now they are still alive thanks to their cash shop. Hate to break it to you but Lord of the Rings Online is still kicking around and didn't die when you left.

 

If you guys need a more recent example we have our own game here Star Wars the Old Republic.

 

After launch, we had about a year a year-and-a-half of no content. Staff reduced and fired. Seemingly nothing new on the horizon.

 

Then they rolled out the Cartel Market. Within six months to a year content started coming out again.

 

It's not rocket science as to why. The Cartel Market produces nearly as much if not more money per year than the subscribers.

 

I want to say at those EA meetings around that time if you go one year to the next the revenue almost doubled or more from the year before when the cash shop was not in place to when it was.

 

Look I have no problems if people have a personal preference against the cash shop. However historically those cash shops and up helping that health of the game and the more people can buy from them so long as it is not pay to win, the more Revenue that ends up in the developers Pockets which ends up back into the content for the game and allows the game to keep going and stay healthy.

 

People arguing something different usually are arguing from a place of emotion and not a place of MMO history being on their side.

 

This is what I typically find as well. The people who are the most vocal against cash shops, when presented with evidence that they do indeed help the game in terms of funding and production of playable content, tend to respond with even more shouting.

 

I don't think anyone is arguing against the CM, but giving away the game for FREE does not necessarily equate to equal or more revenue from the CM, especially since most CM revenue comes from those who are already subscribing and therefore paying.

 

Some are against giving away the game for FREE.

[Eshvara]

Who exactly is saying they want the game completely free and abolish subs. Am I missing something. Edited July 8, 2017 by Eshvara

[Baith-Na]

Who exactly is saying they want the game completely free and abolish subs. Am I missing something.

 

No one requested that but the forum extremist need someone to attack so they change the argument .

[Ratajack]

Who exactly is saying they want the game completely free and abolish subs. Am I missing something.

 

Players might not be asking for the "entire game" for free, but we see many players asking for the incentives to subscribe be removed or lessened and that those parts of the game in which they participate be made available for FREE.

 

We do see Johnny's that do primarily PVP asking to be able to have unlimited WZ's for FREE. We see Billy asking to have the credit cap raised, and preferably, removed. We see David asking to be able to do end game content, including GC and OPS, for FREE.

 

The player that only does PVP is not concerned about OPS being available only to subscribers, and the player that does not PVP cares nothing about PVP being limited if a player does not subscribe.

 

It all boils down to "Give me MORE for LESS. In fact, give it to me for FREE."

[HuaRya]

No one requested that but the forum extremist need someone to attack so they change the argument .

 

Ain't that the truth.

[CrazyCT]

Ain't that the truth.

 

Good addition to the discussion. Very well laid out points.

[AlaricSevGirl]

I am a sub but only for a little longer. Why would I choose to play this game as a F2P or preferred player when I can play ESO, Wildstar, Black Desert Online, etc free and not have all the restrictions on me that SWTOR puts on their f2p players. I'm done with TOR, unfortunately. I can't afford to sub to more than one game since I'm putting my son through college. ESO won out over TOR. The thing is, I've spent tons of money in their online store but I refuse to continue to support the game that has such hard restrictions on the non subbed player base. I'll support a game that supports all the players, not the minority of them. Edited July 9, 2017 by AlaricSevGirl

[HuaRya]

Good addition to the discussion. Very well laid out points.

 

Thanks. Following me around from thread to thread. Appreciate the encouragement.

Edited July 10, 2017 by HuaRya

[HuaRya]

I am a sub but only for a little longer. Why would I choose to play this game as a F2P or preferred player when I can play ESO, Wildstar, Black Desert Online, etc free and not have all the restrictions on me that SWTOR puts on their f2p players. I'm done with TOR, unfortunately. I can't afford to sub to more than one game since I'm putting my son through college. ESO won out over TOR. The thing is, I've spent tons of money in their online store but I refuse to continue to support the game that has such hard restrictions on the non subbed player base. I'll support a game that supports all the players, not the minority of them.

 

Exact same experience here. ESO has figured out what makes MMO's work. 64 bit. Being able to be in one Mega Server. Endless exploration. Being able to assist others in their npc fights and getting gear drops. The ability to join 6 guilds at a time means tons of stuff is going on. Purchased enough DLC content and starter packs that the need to subscribe isn't so critical. SWTOR is the opposite in every way. Kind of sad it's almost as if the devs don't actually check out other games to see what works,.

[Tsillah]

Need to remember to put "Add a Crayon font for the forums" in the suggestion box

 

OK, yes, Bioware has quite a big focus on the Cartel Market. The money coming in from the Cartel Market will directly affect how much money and development is spent on that. With your suggestion, the amount of money spent in the Cartel Market won't change, so there won't be any change to their "fund". What you ARE suggesting is that losing the subscription money will have no affect on what is spent on the game. If there is no money coming in from subscriptions, then the only revenue will come from the Cartel Market.

 

Let's try and break it down with examples (these are completely fictional figures, I have no real reason for thinking they may be accurate.)

 

If Bioware currently make $4 million from the CM each month and $1 million from subscriptions, then they will still be making the $4 million after your change, but no $1 million. Oh, looks like their budget for any improvements has been cut by 20%. Where do you think they will make the cut from the development if they no longer have that income? It sure as hell isn't going to come from the one section that is still bringing in the money. You might think they are focusing on the CM now, but it will be the ONLY focus if that is the ONLY source of income.

 

It doesn't matter which is making more money - the Cartel Market won't be affected by this, but losing ANY revenue will affect the game, and the cuts will be in whichever section loses the revenue. No more subs=no more story.

 

And YES, you do have to write "in general" instead of trying to make out like the entire forum base is desperately screaming out for mergers, when it's really about 10 people on either side rehashing the same reasons for and against.

 

That's why it's better to stop buying cartel packs than to stop your sub.

 

At the same time when you lose subs you may also lose cartel spenditure at the same time. In the end an MMO won't last without either income or players.

 

Having tried the preferred status for a while it wasn't so bad. There are a couple of annoyances like it seems that you can't buy artifact authorization for your account anymore (at least I couldn't find it anywhere) and what the game forgets to tell you is that crafting is gimped not just by only being able to queue one thing at a time but also 3 companions max no matter which level you are. Also the button to the cartel market to buy a 3rd crew skill isn't working.

 

On the upside with heroics being what they are, crafting is generally not necessary when you're not subbed. So really the limits are quite doable. For me though endgame is fooked with GC and so I didn't buy a time card to have access to it but just to take away those minor annoyances. It's worth spending 10 bucks a month for just that.

 

What I do not do anymore for about a year now is buying cartel packs. Clearly trying to support the game by buying overpriced gambling packs, did not result in gettting more content added to the game regularly. So if they don't invest in the game, neither will I.

 

The only downside is that I like decorating SHs and I miss out on most of the new stuff because I refuse to pay 100s of bucks just to be able to enjoy decorating. What I'll do therefore is get Manaan and shut down Nar Shaddaa. That way I won't need to spend too many credits on new deco's and avoid buyin cartel packs.

 

Back in 2004 when WoW came into the picture I wasn't ready for paying a sub for a game but that changed over the years as I saw the advantages. I still do, but I have to object to the cartel sham as it didn't translate into investment into the game itself.

 

But money aside there is a point I think to opening up SM operations to preferred players and bringing back artifact authorization for the account, because it's something that I think will benefit the game. Also restrict GC to the base tier and it's done. I simply do not believe that cutting non-subs out of SM operations is the better choice. Not because I think that non-subs are entitled to more, but because it would benefit the game overall.

 

Too many people here make the mistake that the complaint is that f2p or preferred players deserve more. That's not the argument being made here. The argument is that it's better for the game and I can see the point.

 

But let people play SM ops and if they like it they can sub for HM and NiM and higher tiers of gear in GC.

 

I don't care much for PvP so I'll let someone else decide what's useful there. The point is though, the focus is not to give people more for free, but to create a situation that is to the benefit to the overall game. And giving preferred players some more room, might help with that. I mean I didn't play at all for a few months but it does seem that the population has declined futher this year.

[MingusPho]

No one requested that but the forum extremist need someone to attack so they change the argument .

 

Best post I've read to date! Lol

[purewitz]

I wonder if this would make everyone happy.

 

Give Level 70 Preferred Status Players (Someone who has already paid for the current level cap of level 70 by means of Subscribing.) access to the Galactic Command System, but with a reduction of Command XP gain at either say 50% or 75% less than the current gain rate of CXP that a Subscriber currently gets.

 

So pretty much Level 70 Preferred Players would only have access to solo content (Story Chapters and Heroics), Warzones, 4 player group content (Flashpoint and Uprisings) that they already have access to right now and the same restrictions that they already have right now as well, but be able to use the Galactic Command System window, gain CXP at a reduced rate and be able to gain Command Crates as well per Command Rank. So they can participate and progress in end game activities like they did pre-5.0. Which in turn would solve the population decline and give Subscribers more players to queue up with for end game activities that only can be queued for through the Galactic Command System window.

 

Also while we're at it, let's bring back Operation Passes as well. Although this time let's make sure they can't be sold on the GTN. Maybe they could be giftable direct purchase codes bought on the website here, that you have to enter on the website here(like other codes we use for 30 day subs and Cantina tour in-game items.). So if someone what's a friend to do a week of Ops with them. They can buy the OPs Pass outside of the game, and give the code to their Level 70 Preferred Satus Player friend outside of the game. So we don't have to go through the problems of the past with OPs Passes being available on the GTN in-game.

 

In conclusion I repeatedly said, "Level 70 Preferred Status Players" for a reason. I am referring to those that have at least subbed for one or more months since the release of 5.0 Knights of the Eternal Throne that was released last December 2016. I am not referring to Preferred Status Players who have only spend 5 dollars or more in the Cartel Market. What I am suggesting is only for people who have subbed in the past and have the current level cap of level 70. And going forward what I'm suggesting, should only be available to Preferred Status Players who sub to get the new expansion and new level cap. They should indeed be able to continue to progress in the end game. Even if they unsub, but they should be able to progress with reduced CXP gain rates and with restrictions, and no OPs without a Pass.

[QuinlanSaathis]

Or just stop *********** around and just SUB SUB SUB

[purewitz]

Or just stop *********** around and just SUB SUB SUB

If that's the case, then Bioware should just take SWTOR back to be a full-on all or nothing pay to play game like World of Warcraft and Final Fantasy 14. Star Wars: The Old Republic is a multi-tiered freemium game, it's not even a true free to play game. There is a difference. Free to Play is absolutely free with a cash shop and Freemium is a portion of the game is free, a middle tier for those who have spend money on the game in-cash shop, expansions, or previous subscriber with continued access to what they have paid for with restrictions, and unlimited access subscription with a cash shop. Pay to play is all or nothing, either you sub or you don't play with a cash shop sometimes, and TOR hasn't been pay to play since 2012. So please stop yell, "SUB SUB SUB", because this isn't a pay to play game.

Edited July 11, 2017 by purewitz

[PROGOD]

I am a sub but only for a little longer. Why would I choose to play this game as a F2P or preferred player when I can play ESO, Wildstar, Black Desert Online, etc free and not have all the restrictions on me that SWTOR puts on their f2p players. I'm done with TOR, unfortunately. I can't afford to sub to more than one game since I'm putting my son through college. ESO won out over TOR. The thing is, I've spent tons of money in their online store but I refuse to continue to support the game that has such hard restrictions on the non subbed player base. I'll support a game that supports all the players, not the minority of them.

 

and this right here is a prime example of bad game design on swtors current f2p/preferred model sure you should sub after 1-50 if you want to experience everything the game has to offer however the restrictions just starting out honestly tick me off more so then any other f2p game i have played. Now don't get me wrong i don't mind subbing played wow for a long long time but these days swtor and wow also aren't the only mmos. We got mmos doing away with the tab targeting and overall combat being better that said swtor either needs to give subs more content again on the regular or let f2p and prefered have access to cxp and get rid of the sub completely as someone else said why pay 15$ for a 500cc stipend when you can spend 20$ and get more then that only thing you are missing is cxp if not subbed since the content isn't going to the game but the cm lmao

[CrazyCT]

and this right here is a prime example of bad game design on swtors current f2p/preferred model sure you should sub after 1-50 if you want to experience everything the game has to offer however the restrictions just starting out honestly tick me off more so then any other f2p game i have played. Now don't get me wrong i don't mind subbing played wow for a long long time but these days swtor and wow also aren't the only mmos. We got mmos doing away with the tab targeting and overall combat being better that said swtor either needs to give subs more content again on the regular or let f2p and prefered have access to cxp and get rid of the sub completely as someone else said why pay 15$ for a 500cc stipend when you can spend 20$ and get more then that only thing you are missing is cxp if not subbed since the content isn't going to the game but the cm lmao

 

Whut?

[PROGOD]

This is the first MMO I've played that offered a "free" version. In my opinion, if you want to play a game, you pay for it.

However, that seems to be a generational thing. In an age of "free with ads" game on other platforms there has been a demand for those type of free games, and I suspect EA was trying to tap into that market when they went with an F2P model for this game as subscriber numbers were shrinking.

 

HOWEVER, I do believe there needs to be clear divisions between the various "levels" of access (f2p/preferred/subscriber).

 

IF tokens were put back in the cartel market I would want them to be 100% bound to the purchaser. No more selling/trading between toons/accounts. No more rich in game subscribers giving them away to populate their guild to get enough people to do raids...etc.

 

you haven't played many free mmos then warframe makes swtor look pathetic in the f2p department graphics and overall gameplay/combat department js

[PROGOD]

Whut?

 

Drop the sub and make the game accessible to everyone or keep the sub and offer content regularly.

[QuinlanSaathis]

If that's the case, then Bioware should just take SWTOR back to be a full-on all or nothing pay to play game like World of Warcraft and Final Fantasy 14.

 

Yes!

I completely agree with you.

 

Remove the freeloaders in "preferred" who think because they pay something at some time they deserve ongoing rights. Delete Preferred completely.

 

And severely tighten the restrictions around F2P

Edited July 11, 2017 by QuinlanSaathis

[Thruine]

I would disagree with the idea of going f2p completely. I consider ESO one of those type games (they call it buy to play but whatever) and if you like things beyond the gameplay like strongholds then those items we have to buy with credits would probably disappear. And reappear costing between $2-$4 of actual cash (once converted to their crowns). Oh, you can use the millions of needed ingame gold but they got you with their low drops on materials needed and individual patterns needed for it all. So, in theory its possible. Their houses cost $10-$100+ also. So a big LMAO to those leaving for it due to price. And those people behind the game really don't play it. Just a calculator for them. Especially when you consider a two year old could handle and get bored with its "complex and fast pace gameplay". I would speak about their "content" but their store is their content. Even if you look an the new 'expansion', the content added to the store overshadows what was added to the game. That expansion was it for me I was so pissed how little it expanded.

 

But that's one game. EQ2 used to have some extremely strict restrictions on its free to play players. If you cancelled your sub, your own gear wouldn't even be wearable. And it was pretty much a you either sub or you don't have anything. They've eased up for some reason. Maybe a dying game but they churn out expansions each and every year it seems. Heck, the original is still kicking around. Maybe the OP would get what he wanted if SWTOR was unconnected to Star Wars and owned by Daybreak? I dunno. EQ is a puzzle.

 

In any case, I'm more concerned that if SWTOR was completely f2p we'd end up something more like ESO than EQ (if I even know what that is). If their main revenue source becomes the store, then that's the only thing new we'd see that they focus on (maybe popups too to advertise their newest creation you have a limited time to buy forever till we add it to the gamble crates). I don't know what the solution is, but I know its not that.

[realleaftea]

Players might not be asking for the "entire game" for free, but we see many players asking for the incentives to subscribe be removed or lessened and that those parts of the game in which they participate be made available for FREE.

 

We do see Johnny's that do primarily PVP asking to be able to have unlimited WZ's for FREE. We see Billy asking to have the credit cap raised, and preferably, removed. We see David asking to be able to do end game content, including GC and OPS, for FREE.

 

The player that only does PVP is not concerned about OPS being available only to subscribers, and the player that does not PVP cares nothing about PVP being limited if a player does not subscribe.

 

It all boils down to "Give me MORE for LESS. In fact, give it to me for FREE."

That's nonsense,

 

But guess what. Subscribers playing Sorcerers want Sorcerers to be improved, subscribers preferring PvP want the cost of the top tier gear to be reduced and subscribers running operations want sure drops and legacy-wide gear. It's just natural that players focus on their favorite aspect.

 

But there's barely any f2p user stating that he want an apsect to be completely free of cost. F.e. a comman request is to bring operation passes back. That's a huge difference from stating operations ought to be free for all.

 

Personally, I can only state that due to BioWare's business model, they've lost some money.

 

Most friends of mine are casual players. And that means they are willing to invest some money, but they won't pay a constant fee. Others don't have a regular 9-to-5 job and can play games only sporadically and aren't willing to pay for 2 months in advance.

 

So due to the fact that BioWare focuses heavily on constant subscribers, they lost these people as customers. If they were to choose between returning to SWTOR or buying a budget game on STEAM, they'll most certainly choose the latter. There, you don't have the "software as a service" crap. Instead it's up to you and your friends to decide when you have time to play. In fact, most of my friends have bought games they've never even touched.

 

But due to the extreme differentiation between preferred players and subscribers, even if they would come back to SWTOR, there's not even a chance they would fall in love with this game again. I.e. there's no way to get them even back to a subscription.

 

F.e. if you become a preferred player, the game does everything to piss you off. You must select the characters you want to activate, you can't see how many credits you have, you lose some skill bars, you have to decide what crafting professions you want to keep, you might not be able to equip the gear you've spent weeks or months to obtain, IIRC BioWare even removed mods from the gear, you have fewer travel options and you get a constant reminder that you're either close to the credit cap or exceeded it and the credit cap is too low to get anything that you might enjoy and might convince you to stay.

 

So even before it's about access to "end-game content" or not, BioWare already did their best to make it clear that these players aren't welcome. And there's no way to get these player interested in "end-game content" because they aren't allowed to even try it out or participate once.

Edited July 11, 2017 by realleaftea

[purewitz]

Yes!

I completely agree with you.

 

Remove the freeloaders in "preferred" who think because they pay something at some time they deserve ongoing rights. Delete Preferred completely.

 

And severely tighten the restrictions around F2P

I was being sarcastic, but if Bioware can't run a multi-tiered Freemium business model correctly. They might as well go back to a Pay to Play subscription only business model like World of Warcraft or Final Fantasy 14, or maybe switch a Buy to Play business model like The Elder Scrolls Online or Guild Wars 2 with paid expansions.

Edited July 12, 2017 by purewitz

[IntegrationArch]

They moved my post but BW would increase the amount of paid subs and game profits if they lowered the long term sub cost to average about $8 to $9 per month instead of $16 for this old bugged game. Offer a non CC sub light for example. The sub would be eligible to buy CC packs of couse like now. Steam has $5 month for 100's of games and free games too. This is the in game purchase model that is better. If they make $8M for 1/2 million subs they could lower costs and make the game more profitable to them and make $12M for 1.5M subs

 

Many more F2P would sub along with new to game sube.

Edited July 12, 2017 by IntegrationArch

[RagnarAugustus]

i would bring ops passes back and give subscribers unlimited operations, end the lock outs for subs.

 

Yeah I never really understood the concept of a lockout other than to prevent people from farming Ops, but even if they are farming it's still more players raiding which is a good thing to me.

 

I think subs should have to ability to also extend a lockout. This would benefit progression guilds so we can continue to try to down HM Revan for example for our entire raid instead of clearing all of the bosses to that point then getting back to work. WOW has a system like this and it works well from what my Guildies told me.