How to Fix pvp and make heals and dps relevant.

[VixenRawR]

The main problem with swtor is classes don't fit into their roles.Tanks, that do insane DPS. Healers, that don't need a team to survive. DPS that can tank and heal.

 

Tanks. Tanks should have one job. Take damage for the team. I don't think tanks should be without damage but when a tank can top the charts...that's saying something. I think tank spec should be the only spec with guard. It would define their role and make people want them specifically over another spec. Tanks should be about interrupting, taunting, and guarding. Imo even guard needs revamped but won't talk about that here. Imo tanks should have the most control in the game/cc.

 

Healers: No healer should be able to survive a 1 v 1. People keep thinking they are going to die like a marauder with no dcd, that's not the case. All healers should have deterrents to keep dps at bay and decent dcds that aren't insanely OP either. Sorcs have barrier and phasewalk. Mercs get rocket out and h/o though rocket out should instantly prevent being leaped and pulled to by default imo on healers. Op healers just need fixed. Sure they can kite and heal but eventually they should die if skill is equal with dps. This brings in WHY healers have a role...to heal a team...and be guarded and protected by the team. Healers don't 1 v 1 in duels cause everyone knows it's dumb. Healers in every game require a team. Sure they can solo in pve but its slow going...no one jumps on their merc to go solo heal in pve...>.>

 

DPS: They should be about producing damage. No self heals whatsoever. Nothing. I think it would just be easiest. Remove all self casting heals. Replace with shields, defense, reflect, and any kind of dmg reduction to slow death. Marauders and snipers are good examples of where dcds on a dps should be at. I personally feel marauders are in a good spot. Remove every h2f regardless of heal/tank/dps as a dcd. Healers should be the ones healing. Give every class a good surge bonus...tired of seeing classes that cant even hit 25k on a good day.

 

With this dps will be able to put out larger hits, will people should be able to absorb more hits. Tanks will guard healers...and healers will do THEIR job...HEAL....they will be more relevant...require more skill...and yes actually die. Healers have been spoiled by running around not dying for years now. Sure they die if by the hands of superior skilled players or massive groups of prolonged focus.

 

I miss actually feeling accomplished on my healer when I didn't die. I tried really hard to survive and keep my teammates alive. Now I don't feel accomplished, I don't bat an eye when I see a sorc with 4-5 mil healing done in a warzone..im like oh that's normal. I know they weren't facing hardship or challenges other than focusing on a flawless rotation to get that extra boost in HPS which didn't really matter in the end as no one could kill them.

 

To sum it up. Give classes their roles back...otherwise it's insanely boring when a DPS can heal in place of a healer. Or h2f as if a healer was present, and dps that guard like a tank.

 

"But dps will die without h2f" no just give more relevant reflects and dmg absorption and a guard breaker, and more heal decay to dps classes to give them more purpose and to help bring down players more efficiently without sitting in mid for 5 mins hoping their sorc healer might die or dc.

Edited May 23, 2017 by VixenRawR

[Foambreaker]

tl;dr read most, don't agree.

[kissingaiur]

Stopped paying attention when you stated, "No healer should be able to survive a 1 v 1".

 

No. If a healer couldn't out heal a DPS they would be valued less than a DPS. That means even if a healer was healing you, you would still die. That means there would be literally no reason to play one because could get more value out of 2 DPS.

 

Let that sink in and tell me again how it's "more balance" to remove the relevance of healers in this game.

 

This games healing is fine. The major problem is the overtunned escapes and DCDs. If there was more balance in this department you would see this is not a healing problem.

 

PS - Operative healers are the most balanced healers in this game because they have strengths and weaknesses; as all healers should. Sorcs have minimal weaknesses in PvP and are well rounded, that's why they are meta.

Edited May 23, 2017 by kissingaiur

[jedcjedcjedc]

Stopped paying attention when you stated, "No healer should be able to survive a 1 v 1".

 

No. If a healing couldn't out heal a DPS they would be valued less than a DPS. That means even if a healer was healing you, you would still die. That means there would be literally no reason to play one because could get more value out of 2 DPS.

 

Let that sink in and tell me again how it's "more balance" to remove the relevance of healers in this game

I've explained this to him before, but he disagrees.

[kissingaiur]

I've explained this to him before, but he disagrees.

 

Well that's a shame.

[VixenRawR]

Stopped paying attention when you stated, "No healer should be able to survive a 1 v 1".

 

No. If a healer couldn't out heal a DPS they would be valued less than a DPS. That means even if a healer was healing you, you would still die. That means there would be literally no reason to play one because could get more value out of 2 DPS.

 

Let that sink in and tell me again how it's "more balance" to remove the relevance of healers in this game.

 

This games healing is fine. The major problem is the overtunned escapes and DCDs. If there was more balance in this department you would see this is not a healing problem.

 

PS - Operative healers are the most balanced healers in this game because they have strengths and weaknesses; as all healers should. Sorcs have minimal weaknesses in PvP and are well rounded, that's why they are meta.

 

So instead we should just que with multiple healers cause they will never die alone. Leave 1 to guard, and 1 in mid...sorc with 2 cc breakers and a 3rd cc escape ...why ever have ANYONE else guard?

 

In fact lets all just be sorc healers cause that worked so well for 2 years. Just stalemate pvp over and over.

Edited May 23, 2017 by VixenRawR

[kissingaiur]

So instead we should just que with multiple healers cause they will never die alone. Leave 1 to guard, and 1 in mid...sorc with 2 cc breakers and a 3rd cc escape ...why ever have ANYONE else guard?

 

What you are talking about is poor match making. It has nothing to do with healing in this game.

 

People see games with 5 healers and a tank in a game in instantly jump on the hype-train that healing is broken when the real reason is because regs have NO match making and allows trash comps like this to exist.

 

Don't get me wrong it sucks but don't get that confused with class balance.

Edited May 23, 2017 by kissingaiur

[VixenRawR]

What you are talking about is poor match making. It has nothing to do with healing in this game.

 

People see games with 5 healers and a tank in a game in instantly jump on the hype-train that healing is broken when it is just because regs have NO match making and allows trash comps like this to exist.

 

Don't get me wrong it sucks but don't get that confused with class balance.

 

No, its good matchmaking with 2 sorc heals you cant ever ever lose the node or mid. Why cause you cant die. You should make a premade with 2 sorc heals...best move in the game.

[kissingaiur]

No, its good matchmaking with 2 sorc heals you cant ever ever lose the node or mid. Why cause you cant die. You should make a premade with 2 sorc heals...best move in the game.

 

People premading with 2 sorc healers lul. I'll try to contain my laughter here.

[VixenRawR]

Yes but heals have AoE and other benefits that can't be factored into single target, with good tanking and peels and taunts a healer should provide more than 1 dps could ever do alone. The point is when you have a healer that doesn't even come close to dying in a 1 v 1...even 1 v 2 they can last forever...throw guard on and that insane survivability is just broken.

 

Maybe I wouldnt mind it so much if they changed everything else I mentioned cause then sorcs would have to work to keep dps a live and less focus on themselves...all I know is the way it is is beyond stupid.

[Glocko]

Juggs and PTs would be obsolete without the DPS combo.

[kissingaiur]

Yes but heals have AoE and other benefits that can't be factored into single target, with good tanking and peels and taunts a healer should provide more than 1 dps could ever do alone. The point is when you have a healer that doesn't even come close to dying in a 1 v 1...even 1 v 2 they can last forever...throw guard on and that insane survivability is just broken.

 

Maybe I wouldnt mind it so much if they changed everything else I mentioned cause then sorcs would have to work to keep dps a live and less focus on themselves...all I know is the way it is is beyond stupid.

 

Good DPS can keep a healer preoccupied and even kill them if they **** up. That's the point. 1 for 1 value. The point is there is a lack of good dps in warzones because regs are for casuals who queue with 2 sorc healer premades doing while their group does 1k dps. I played around idk 8k regs in my day? Maybe more? I majority of players ii have run into have no understanding what a breaker is, what a mez is, how to cc a healer, when to time cds or create burst windows. Majority don't even know the right rotation to even DPS.

 

All of this is a pointless discussion because:

1) Regs are for casuals so the skill varies A-LOT

2) There no no match making

3) Majority struggle to even achieve 2k dps when it takes at least 3k+ to kill a target

4) dcds/escape are slightly overtuned so there is no real punishment for mistakes

 

If you really care about match making or playing with people who are competitive in this game, play solo ranked. It has forced match making. If you don't want to do that make a tank/healer/2 dps team for group ranked. That is where the match making and competition in this game lies. Not regs.

Edited May 23, 2017 by kissingaiur

[VixenRawR]

Good DPS can keep a healer preoccupied and even kill them if they **** up. That's the point. 1 for 1 value. The point is there is a lack of good dps in warzones because regs are for casuals who queue with 2 sorc healer premades doing while their group does 1k dps. I played around idk 8k regs in my day? Maybe more? I majority of players ii have run into have no understanding what a breaker is, what a mez is, how to cc a healer, when to time cds or create burst windows. Majority don't even know the right rotation to even DPS.

 

All of this is a pointless discussion because:

1) Regs are for casuals so the skill verse A-LOT

2) There no no match making

3) Majority struggle to even achieve 2k dps when it takes at least 3k+ to kill a target

4) dcds/escape are slightly overtuned so there is no real punishment for mistakes

 

If you really care about match making or playing with people who are competitive in this game, play solo ranked. It has forced match making. If you don't want to do that make a tank/healer/2 dps team for group ranked. That is where the match making and competition in this game lies. Not regs.

 

And here it is again "Good dps" surprise...guess what a "Good healer" can do? Not be preoccupied by a single dps its a joke.

 

Lol regs are for casuals...and ranked is for what...tryhards? Like the difference is the same in ranked and regs...just bads on fotm is the difference in ranked. The whole point of even discussing class and balance is to assume skill level is the same, there are good and bad players but I can kill all the bad healers and bad dps and tanks...not even worth a mention. If the player is better than me then it won't matter much.

Edited May 23, 2017 by VixenRawR

[kissingaiur]

And here it is again "Good dps" surprise...guess what a "Good healer" can do? Not be preoccupied by a single dps its a joke.

 

Have you ever healed before? Come on a sorc healer and let my guildie duel you as a Carnage and we will see how long you lost. If you **** up your breaker once he will hardstun you at 70% and instantly kill you. Majority of players don't understand how to CC or how to burst to kill a target. That's why regs are for casuals. It has no match making and you can do whatever you want. If you want match making and more "fairness" judge that from solo ranked and group ranked were class balance actually comes into play.

 

Edited: You are judging class balance around regs so yes, your argument is centered around that fact. It is relevant to your discussion.

Edited May 23, 2017 by kissingaiur

[Foambreaker]

Not to mention balancing around 1v1 is simply not relevant in an MMO setting.

[-Bob-]

best way to balance the game. EA/BW go bankrupt, shutdown all servers.

[Northernian]

The solution to class imbalance may lie in rehauling the queuing system. Writing algorithms that will prevent a team to have 4 mercs/mandos, healers of the same class, dps of the same spec etc....

 

...Right now, it is so randomized and messed up that it cannot prevent players from choosing the lowest hanging fruits of the PvP tree (mercs, specifically). Randomization becomes PvP's Achilles here and creates imbalances in WZs.

 

Rehaul the queuing system, you prevent class stacking, and there will be no need for nerfs or buffs, upset players, "I'm leaving Swtor" tantrums and such and such. I can still kill a merc one-on-one with my dps Assassin and find a way to mitigate a 2nd merc's onslaught. I can't if there are 3 or 4 of the same kind in the same area over and over again. Then it becomes frustrating indeed.

 

My 2 cents.

[sumquy]

i agree with most of what you said in op except for the part about the healers. 1 dps should absolutely not be able to kill a good healer. imo, merc healers are exactly where they should be, with sorcs a little too strong and ops a little to weak. as for removing h2f... juggs are already whining that they can't survive 4 dps focusing them for more than 10 seconds anymore, and mercs just crawled out of the pit they have been in for years. if you take that away from them they may mass quit the game.

[Wimbleton]

The main problem with swtor is classes don't fit into their roles.Tanks, that do insane DPS. Healers, that don't need a team to survive. DPS that can tank and heal.

 

.

 

I see this and read: I'm too lazy/bad to seperate healer/tanks, call focus, play well in general and/or beat other dps. I do not care to rectify the root of my problems so I'm asking that social justice SWTOR will hand me the ease of play without the countless hours of repetition that others have put in.

 

Then I stopped reading.

[lavatsunami]

Actually simple pvp balance laws dictate the following:

 

1) No single dps can kill a healer (takes 2+)

2) Tanks should have much better survivability than a dps

3) Tanks damage should never be close to dps damage (should be basically half a dps)

 

Follow those laws and you'd have balance. Issues here are obviously 2) and 3). dps have tons of survivability they shouldn't have, and 3) tanks damage is way too high. There is obviously some more complexity that could be looked at, but that is simplistic view of how to achieve balance.

[VixenRawR]

I see this and read: I'm too lazy/bad to seperate healer/tanks, call focus, play well in general and/or beat other dps. I do not care to rectify the root of my problems so I'm asking that social justice SWTOR will hand me the ease of play without the countless hours of repetition that others have put in.

 

Then I stopped reading.

 

Lol I love how people act like separating a healer and tank is the easiest thing in the world. What are you going to do? Pull and stun? Push and stun. Bam white bar wnd they cc break not to meantion the healer or tank that wasnt ccd just runs to their aid within 1 second. Any heal/tank combo worth a grain of salt will never separate for more than 2 seconds. It's why jugg/sin tanks and sorc and even now merc heals with all their dcds would never die.

 

First off the range of gaurd is huge so good luck with that. If a healer does leave the tank it probably doesn't fear the dps. Why? H2f x3 or 3 cc escapes with barrier and phasewalk. When played right a healer tank combo can last a very long time against 4+ enemies.

 

Sorc and jugg are hard because intercede and sorcs ability to pull ally to them. On top of that they just work well together. I'd love to see the bad healer tank combos that willingly separate themselves long enough for the healer to die under pressure of 2 dps.

[Yezzan]

is the OP trolling or is this a serious thread?

 

In any event, I disagree... how can a healer keep a team up but shouldn't be able to survive a 1v1? lol Man, G.T.F.O!

[VixenRawR]

i agree with most of what you said in op except for the part about the healers. 1 dps should absolutely not be able to kill a good healer. imo, merc healers are exactly where they should be, with sorcs a little too strong and ops a little to weak. as for removing h2f... juggs are already whining that they can't survive 4 dps focusing them for more than 10 seconds anymore, and mercs just crawled out of the pit they have been in for years. if you take that away from them they may mass quit the game.

 

The point was to create more suited dcds that didn't focus on h2f. And merc healers aren't because they have to good of dcds available. And tbh if a jugg cant live longer than 10 seconds they are doing something horribly wrong and honestly if it is a 1 v 4 who should live that long! I can only hope the jugg has teammates that do anything. More h2f isn't the solution. Swtor just adds more heals, cc and cc resist which just make life hell.

[RooRider]

I see this and read: I'm too lazy/bad to seperate healer/tanks, call focus, play well in general and/or beat other dps. I do not care to rectify the root of my problems so I'm asking that social justice SWTOR will hand me the ease of play without the countless hours of repetition that others have put in.

 

Then I stopped reading.

 

+1

 

You could dumb this game down to the point where there's one button for attack and one button for block, and there would still be people on the forum complaining the game is too hard.

[Sargrith]

is the OP trolling or is this a serious thread?

 

In any event, I disagree... how can a healer keep a team up but shouldn't be able to survive a 1v1? lol Man, G.T.F.O!

 

Healer's shouldn't be able to keep a team up. Just like tanks can't protect everyone at once all the time. Heals should be able to keep a teammate up who is using defenses for a time against a focus but even then if the other team stays on target with two and usually 3 dps then they should overwhelm the healers ability to keep them up.

 

One on one the healer should loose in a long fight to a dps. In a long fight, not fast but in a long fight.

 

Last night was playing my van dps (the fire one I forget the name no coffee yet this morning). Anyway three vans and a sage healer. We won in two rounds, they have two heals and two dps. They had a sorc heal, op heal, dps jugg, and dps merc.

 

Round one we went after the op healer and got him, after a long time, but once he fell the others went down faster.

 

End dps for our team the three vans had 495k, 455k, and 440k respectively. Our sage had 780k heals......

 

Round two the other team enter just deciding to make it easy and we won much faster

 

Dps 305k, 290k, and 215k. Sage heals 465k.

 

The sage is easily out healing any one of us, and lets be honest here we won without anyone dying so we were heavily pressing them so we didn't need that much healing.....do you really think any two of us could have put our sage healer down, in 5 minutes? Maybe but it would be way too close. Healing right now is vastly overpowered. It needs to be reduced in PvP because it isn't fun when it gets next to impossible to kill anyone. And just a point, we are vangards and with one healer the other team never came close to killing any of us....vangard dps have the worst defenses in the game and with one healer two dps couldn't threaten us.

Edited May 24, 2017 by Sargrith