I want us all to have a good long 5.0 laugh moment.

[Seterade]

That moment when you get crap talked in pvp by full geared mercs on your brand new 70, with no gear.

 

Lets all have a moment of laughter as we watch them hard cast tracer missile and call all the 115 hp players bad.

 

A TOAST!

Edited May 18, 2017 by Seterade

[DenariusJay]

Yea mercs who talk a lot of trash in chat are pretty obnoxious. It's like a kid who has training wheels on his bicycle laughing at the other kids who fall occasionally learning how to ride a real bike.

[Seterade]

It's exactly like that. Running around in my cxp lvl 5 alt sorc, and then a 127 hp merc /lols cause he managed to kill me.

 

You can't even get upset about it. It's just funny to watch someone think their good enough to /lol the chat, when the gear disparity in 5.0 makes it so a new 70 in 210-230 mods dies from a single merc dps roation.

[Hoppinswtor]

When it comes to DPS, the gear gap is indeed about 20 percent (close to 30 percent if you don't have a set bonus). A merc doing 5k in bolstered 208's will do about 6-6.5k in 248's. Mercs just shouldn't talk trash in general unless people are tunneling through their reflect or trauma regulators - in which case I wouldn't be saying anything anyway because their stupidity/ignorance would be helping me.

 

I will, however, laugh when 4 mercs get 3v4'd in an arena by a jug tank, fury marauder, and hatred sin.

Edited May 18, 2017 by Hoppinswtor

[jedcjedcjedc]

When it comes to DPS, the gear gap is indeed about 20 percent

man, it's like a game of telephone, it just keeps increasing!

[stoopicus]

man, it's like a game of telephone, it just keeps increasing!

 

He's right, it is about 20%. My pri damage on my main is just under (like, 50 pts under) 5k right now; it was bolstering to 4000. I'm not fully 248 yet. 20% is an accurate number.

[Gyronamics]

man, it's like a game of telephone, it just keeps increasing!

 

Compared to what?

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

That moment when you get crap talked in pvp by full geared mercs on your brand new 70, with no gear.

 

Lets all have a moment of laughter as we watch them hard cast tracer missile and call all the 115 hp players bad.

 

A TOAST!

 

F**k Mercs.

 

P.S. And Snipers.

[Schoock]

He's right, it is about 20%. My pri damage on my main is just under (like, 50 pts under) 5k right now; it was bolstering to 4000. I'm not fully 248 yet. 20% is an accurate number.

 

Just did a little test just for you "omg I'm getting rekt because of the gear gap" people. Sadly I only have my Sorc healer geared to full 248, but probably players of other classes will be able to share their numbers too. The first values in a row are what I'm getting in bolstered 208 (fully preserved as a memory, not even augments changed) while the second are for 248.

 

Force Bonus Damage: 3327.1/3630.3 (+9.11%)

Force Bonus Healing: 2474.9/2701.4 (+9.15%)

Critical: 45.90%/46.89% (+2.15%)

Critical Multiplier: 71.38%/71.84% (+0.64%)

Alacrity: 4.01%/14.08% (+351.12%)

Health: 117015/129105 (+10,33%)

Damage reduction: 22.39%/23.04% (+2,9%)

 

The strongly varying results in crit/alacrity is because in 208 I was running a 0 alacrity build, so any alacrity above 0 is provided gratis by bolster, so the comparison on those values isn't really valid. Looking at the rest we can see a ~10% difference.

 

Now, and sorry to say this, skill differences in PvP are sometimes close to 200-300%, that 10% from the gear isn't really making any difference.

[stoopicus]

The strongly varying results in crit/alacrity is because in 208 I was running a 0 alacrity build, so any alacrity above 0 is provided gratis by bolster, so the comparison on those values isn't really valid. Looking at the rest we can see a ~10% difference.

 

Now, and sorry to say this, skill differences in PvP are sometimes close to 200-300%, that 10% from the gear isn't really making any difference.

 

No idea why we're seeing such wide variance there (maybe we minmax differently or something) but I saw a much wider gap on my Pri Dmg (as I mentioned - from ~4k to ~5k).

 

I'm happily sitting at the top end of the gear gap so I have no incentive to whine here, just pointing out the numbers I saw.

 

Agreed about the skill differences.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Just did a little test just for you "omg I'm getting rekt because of the gear gap" people. Sadly I only have my Sorc healer geared to full 248, but probably players of other classes will be able to share their numbers too. The first values in a row are what I'm getting in bolstered 208 (fully preserved as a memory, not even augments changed) while the second are for 248.

 

Force Bonus Damage: 3327.1/3630.3 (+9.11%)

Force Bonus Healing: 2474.9/2701.4 (+9.15%)

Critical: 45.90%/46.89% (+2.15%)

Critical Multiplier: 71.38%/71.84% (+0.64%)

Alacrity: 4.01%/14.08% (+351.12%)

Health: 117015/129105 (+10,33%)

Damage reduction: 22.39%/23.04% (+2,9%)

 

The strongly varying results in crit/alacrity is because in 208 I was running a 0 alacrity build, so any alacrity above 0 is provided gratis by bolster, so the comparison on those values isn't really valid. Looking at the rest we can see a ~10% difference.

 

Now, and sorry to say this, skill differences in PvP are sometimes close to 200-300%, that 10% from the gear isn't really making any difference.

 

A test like you conducted on such a limited scale really proves very little. Now, Im not in spirit disagreeing with the notion that gear differences are a major source of performance differences. Clearly there are some, that's undeniable, I just don't think it is quite as server as some seem to think.

 

The fact is, and this is just from my personal experience and is in no way binding or am I using as a "fact". But, even now that I am closer to full 248 geared, I'm not reaching numbers I was incapable of reaching when I was full 242. It may be that the average is higher, but I have never reached a total damage result at the end of a WZ since I was full 242 that I nevered reached before than. As a matter of a fact my highest total 6 million, was when I was still full 242, and I haven't done 6 million since. [Although I see more instances in the 4 million range than I did when I was in full 242].

 

But that, nor your limited testing, is proof positive of anything really, and I'm not finding fault with your example, I'm merely stating that it is not conclusive of anything over all. There are far too many variables [rng] , differences in classes and abilities and tertiary stat values to draw any conclusions from such small test samples [both yours and mine].

 

That said, even if for argument sake we say that the gear differences account for no more than a 10% performance differential, which is certainly surmountable by skill differences in players, it is undeniable that gear differences do have some effect on performance. Most people who complain about the gear differences really aren't complaining about the level of the differences, but rather than there shouldn't be any differences at all based solely on gear differences, whether that's a 1% difference or a 20% difference.

 

I am personnally indifferent to it, I'm fine with the way it is now and I'm fine with the way it was before 5.0 [no gear differences], but, to be fair, that may be easy for me to feel that way when I'm seldom out geared by anyone [i only play one character now so all time spent in game goes towards the building of that one toon]. From day one til now, I've never had an issue with the gear differences, and I couldn't have always been better geared than everyone else.

 

But my thoughts on it are largely irrelevant. The majority of hardcore PVPers want no effects from gear to enter into the equation, they want purely skill vs. skill, and precident is in their favor, because that's basically how it's always been in the past. It's what will make the largest number of PVPers happy, and that's good for them and it's good for PVP. More happy players, more people PVPing. For that one reason alone, I think they should have it their way.

 

Than again, I'm a total moron, so you really can't go by me =p

 

Raise them damn bolster already BW. It's a flip of the switch. Make em happy.

Edited May 19, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Schoock]

... snip ...

 

I'm not going to argue with that it would be preferable to not have any gear difference, at all in PvP, but Bioware seems determined about it (and some people here just want "rewards" for their time, as PvPing in and itself doesn't seem to be good enough), so I doubt it will go away.

 

These numbers should be deterministically generated, so if I see these results, other should see them too. But do a test, if you have 248, compare that with some other bolstered set of gear you have access to, and post your results here. I'm just tired of these numbers pulled out of people's behinds, saying they get two-shot because they queue in lower gear. People hiding behind the gear gap is what irritates me. If for nothing else, I would like to see bolster higher so they cannot blame their lack of performance on gear.

 

I've done some regs on the Harbinger on my Sorc there, which is geared in 230s (except gloves, which are the blue lvl 10 (!) ones you can buy from the vendor), no augments at all, and I was still relatively close to my usual numbers. Maybe a 10-15% gap, but it didn't feel like I was getting rekt (except when I was, but that would've been getting rekt anyway, in any gear), nor did I feel like overly underperforming compared to my usual.

[stoopicus]

These numbers should be deterministically generated, so if I see these results, other should see them too.

 

Well, sure, but deterministic does not imply linear between specs either. For example, I skank tank, and since it's well known that since bolster is stance based for effect in 5.0, while I am being bolstered I am seeing much less mastery gain versus Endurance gain than the bolstered rating should imply, because for Immortal, bolster is biased towards Endurance. That alone might be enough to explain the disparity in the numbers you saw versus what I saw - once I was above bolster in my DPS gear, my mastery became predominant again and was not being gimped by bolster. So, cases like skank tanking see a much larger gain from BiS gear (because it is removing the stealth skank bolster nerf.)

[Schoock]

Well, sure, but deterministic does not imply linear between specs either. For example, I skank tank, and since it's well known that since bolster is stance based for effect in 5.0, while I am being bolstered I am seeing much less mastery gain versus Endurance gain than the bolstered rating should imply, because for Immortal, bolster is biased towards Endurance. That alone might be enough to explain the disparity in the numbers you saw versus what I saw - once I was above bolster in my DPS gear, my mastery became predominant again and was not being gimped by bolster. So, cases like skank tanking see a much larger gain from BiS gear (because it is removing the stealth skank bolster nerf.)

 

Well, maybe. It would still be interesting to see some numbers. Also skank tanking is special because the whole point of it is putting the technically wrong kind of gear on your toon and getting away with it.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

II'm just tired of these numbers pulled out of people's behinds, saying they get two-shot because they queue in lower gear. People hiding behind the gear gap is what irritates me. If for nothing else, I would like to see bolster higher so they cannot blame their lack of performance on gear..

 

I do not disagree with you. I do not think people are getting two shoted because of lower gear. Bolster will bring anyone up to 236 [i think that's the current number], so someone in 248 isn't dropping you in two hits because of that gear difference. Assuming you take the average health pool these days, wherein 115-120 would be on the lower end, that would mean that each attack is doing 60k damage, and thats after defenses and mitigations are figured in! heh Not gonna happen because of that gear difference. Even if it was three hits that would mean they had to do three 40k hits back to back. No one can do that. A merc can land a 40k heatseeker, but he's not following that up with any attack even close to 40k.

 

The gear gap is present, but it is in no way damning to those levels, not even remotely close.

[stoopicus]

Well, maybe. It would still be interesting to see some numbers. Also skank tanking is special because the whole point of it is putting the technically wrong kind of gear on your toon and getting away with it.

 

You can easily replicate the bolster nerf for skank tanks. Just take a warrior, put on some sub-bolster dps gear, spec Veng, check the stats, spec Immortal, check the stats - Mastery and End should be the same. Now hit the bolsterizer with both specs and check the stats again. Immortal will have higher End, Veng will have higher Mastery and Power.

 

So for skank tanks at least, there is additional significant advantage to being well above bolster. In my testing I linked below it was about 10%, which is also probably not coincidentally the difference between the numbers you just posted and what I see on my mainhand damage. Basically I was seeing the 9-10% you saw from the 248-238 difference, plus the additional 10% that bolster was gimping my Mastery and Power for speccing Immortal. The same is presumably true for 'Sin tanks.

 

This has been known a long time but for some reason isn't as widely known as it should be (and it blew me away when someone clued me in on it.)

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=910657

 

tl;dr, for some specs, being BiS makes a huge difference over bolster. For others, maybe not so much.

Edited May 19, 2017 by stoopicus

[Storm-Cutter]

Regardless of the gap, it's all for nothing if you're not paying attention, ( like chasing numbers and not watching for a cap or score.)

 

Or conversely left to your own devices to free-cast all match. ( sitting in a good position hosing down big groups and not being shut down / CC'd / killed )

 

Back on topic, though, sometimes some people act the big-I-Am, only to get matched up with a load of idiots the very next WZ and get crushed. They do tend to go very quiet after that.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Regardless of the gap, it's all for nothing if you're not paying attention, ( like chasing numbers and not watching for a cap or score.)

 

Or conversely left to your own devices to free-cast all match. ( sitting in a good position hosing down big groups and not being shut down / CC'd / killed )

 

Back on topic, though, sometimes some people act the big-I-Am, only to get matched up with a load of idiots the very next WZ and get crushed. They do tend to go very quiet after that.

 

Well said.

[Hoppinswtor]

Yeah, it's about 20 percent. Maybe a little less, especially when fights are not sustained (alacrity reaches its fullest potential only when there is 100 percent uptime). On average I do 20 percent more DPS on my merc now than when I was just starting to gear her up. The stat increases are more than just bonus damage (10 percent); you also have to factor in the extra 2 percent crit as well as the extra 5-6 percent alacrity, accuracy rating, and the extra 5-6 GCDs you'll probably get over the course of a warzone due to increased survivability. If everything is hitting 10 percent harder and 5-6 percent faster with fewer misses, more crits, and extra GCD's, the difference is closer to 20 percent.

 

I honestly don't mind the gear gap that much because we can still win warzones in 208's; just have the pvp grind start at tier 3 instead of 2.

Edited May 19, 2017 by Hoppinswtor

[jedcjedcjedc]

A test like you conducted on such a limited scale really proves very little. Now, Im not in spirit disagreeing with the notion that gear differences are a major source of performance differences. Clearly there are some, that's undeniable, I just don't think it is quite as server as some seem to think.

 

The fact is, and this is just from my personal experience and is in no way binding or am I using as a "fact". But, even now that I am closer to full 248 geared, I'm not reaching numbers I was incapable of reaching when I was full 242. It may be that the average is higher, but I have never reached a total damage result at the end of a WZ since I was full 242 that I nevered reached before than. As a matter of a fact my highest total 6 million, was when I was still full 242, and I haven't done 6 million since. [Although I see more instances in the 4 million range than I did when I was in full 242].

 

But that, nor your limited testing, is proof positive of anything really, and I'm not finding fault with your example, I'm merely stating that it is not conclusive of anything over all. There are far too many variables [rng] , differences in classes and abilities and tertiary stat values to draw any conclusions from such small test samples [both yours and mine].

 

That said, even if for argument sake we say that the gear differences account for no more than a 10% performance differential, which is certainly surmountable by skill differences in players, it is undeniable that gear differences do have some effect on performance. Most people who complain about the gear differences really aren't complaining about the level of the differences, but rather than there shouldn't be any differences at all based solely on gear differences, whether that's a 1% difference or a 20% difference.

 

I am personnally indifferent to it, I'm fine with the way it is now and I'm fine with the way it was before 5.0 [no gear differences], but, to be fair, that may be easy for me to feel that way when I'm seldom out geared by anyone [i only play one character now so all time spent in game goes towards the building of that one toon]. From day one til now, I've never had an issue with the gear differences, and I couldn't have always been better geared than everyone else.

 

But my thoughts on it are largely irrelevant. The majority of hardcore PVPers want no effects from gear to enter into the equation, they want purely skill vs. skill, and precident is in their favor, because that's basically how it's always been in the past. It's what will make the largest number of PVPers happy, and that's good for them and it's good for PVP. More happy players, more people PVPing. For that one reason alone, I think they should have it their way.

 

Than again, I'm a total moron, so you really can't go by me =p

 

Raise them damn bolster already BW. It's a flip of the switch. Make em happy.

there really is no need for a "scale". all characters of a class have the same end gear. at most there are some slight changes in distribution due to being say a carnage mara over annihilation, but you're not going to see something like jack has 3k crit will jill has 1k crit (using numbers as examples here, well aware that 3k is incredibly into the DR of crit). point is, when all classes have the same end gear for their class, you don't need a sample size. you can just show the end gear for that class becausae that iswhere everyone will end up, barring whoever wants to go for mods/enhancements from other classes to min/max, which doesnt really increase anything, it just changes the numbers from one stat to another.

[BenitsubasaChiyo]

That moment when you get crap talked in pvp by full geared mercs on your brand new 70, with no gear.

 

Lets all have a moment of laughter as we watch them hard cast tracer missile and call all the 115 hp players bad.

 

A TOAST!

 

Yup, they give us good Mercs a bad name:(

[Seterade]

I have one of each advanced class, and my merc is still in tier 1 (I don't play him, because I find it immensely boring) but it took a total of 2 weeks to learn the only thing you hard cast is blazing bolts.

 

The first week I learned /lolling on a merc says more about me than them.

Edited May 19, 2017 by Seterade

[stoopicus]

I find my merc a lot of fun actually but I never play it because as you note, it's not exactly the most rewarding, challenging experience

 

I mean, with sniper you at least have to push more than three buttons.

 

I am leveling a Tactics VG now though which made me dust off my PT and switch him to AP. Now that's challenging and rewarding. First mids match with the VG I was #3 for damage and second place for objectives, too.

[Seterade]

So much fun, Ive mained a sin since 3.0 but I'm slowly becoming a main on my pt ap

[stoopicus]

So much fun, Ive mained a sin since 3.0 but I'm slowly becoming a main on my pt ap

 

Yeah I was surprised, I'd kind of written my PT off. Super fun as AP.