Why the Trooper dislike?

[Cuiwe]

I am interested in why is it exactly that people dislike 1-50 Trooper story so vehemently. It is just an average war time story in lieu of Rambo or Delta Force. But it's not that bad. In fact, it's far from the likes of really underwhelming stuff like BH, JC or SI.

 

...help me understand?

Edited April 10, 2017 by Cuiwe

[SteveTheCynic]

You could argue that it is the ordinary-war-story thing that people don't like - it lacks epicness. And I suppose it does, but a non-epic story is a refreshing break from the grand epic heights of the JK story, for example.

[ThePsyEagle]

I really liked the trooper story. What really got me was: ALL the companions fit! You were a real team, everyone had their role and worked together. Not like the Talz (forgot his name) from the warrior, skadge from the bounty hunter [...].

At first i thought I wouldn't enjoy the story like it was said above me, because it is an average war story. But I don't know, I got really into it.

[perotta]

To each their own. For me the TR storyline was just too average. It wasn't awful, just meh. I wasn't invested in the story, I wasn't fond of my companions, I didn't care about my Trooper, I wasn't bothered by any villainous actions, I didn't laugh, I didn't cry... The only emotion I had was frustration at Garza's screw-it-up marathon.

 

Sure, other storylines have similar issues at some point. JC and SI, in my opinion, are pretty bad, but even they had good arcs/scenes/characters. Trooper? Meh.

[TalonVII]

Because the trooper story could of been EPIC, but instead felt flat. The only times I ever felt like I was actually leading a squad was the Gauntlet and the final assault on Rakton.

 

Other than that, it was "OK I'm grabbing my fav, and the rest sit here and twiddle your thumbs while [insert fav toon here] and I go take care of business."

 

It was badly handled, and having TANNO VIK as part of Havok, would of never flown. Rather of had Rausk from the JK story be the final trooper addition and make him the demo expert. That would of been more rounded. Put Vik with the JK.

[Cuiwe]

Because the trooper story could of been EPIC, but instead felt flat. The only times I ever felt like I was actually leading a squad was the Gauntlet and the final assault on Rakton.

 

Other than that, it was "OK I'm grabbing my fav, and the rest sit here and twiddle your thumbs while [insert fav toon here] and I go take care of business."

 

It was badly handled, and having TANNO VIK as part of Havok, would of never flown. Rather of had Rausk from the JK story be the final trooper addition and make him the demo expert. That would of been more rounded. Put Vik with the JK.

 

The problem here is that there are constraints due to the nature of this game(even the Agent suffers from those, somewhat). As a single player game(kinda like Republic Commando), it'd have worked MUCH better. You could feel the complete blow of your actions...maybe even get kicked out of the military at the end.

 

Yeah, it is kinda typical Warzone story, but I feel that even here people misattribute things. From the most of complaints I've seen, there is a lot of complaints about it not being military enough. But...it is! It's just that it isn't what most people think of when they think of Military. Most people think of ground or armored corps or the navy...you aren't that. You are SpecOps(or BlOps, whatever). Just like Rambo, Delta Force etc. That's why I think the base class should've been called "Commando" and the Adv.Class "Trooper"(or whatever else, really). Because you ARE a Commando!

 

I just don't understand the flak...as in "act III is horrible". How so? The Dagger Wing part was BEAUTIFUL, the Voss part was extremely logical(and kudos to Charles that he remembered to close that part of story) and Corellia...one of better Corellia stories, for sure(especially when mixed with Corellia planetary, which makes sense for Trooper anyhow). Maybe people don't understand Rakton? /shrug

[JLazarillo]

The Trooper story has two or three really significant problems that just bring the whole thing down. I will first say before getting to those that the one thing it did really well was companions. I think all the members of Havoc Squad were great, even Vik, despite thinking he should've been replaced by Fuse.

 

Now, on to the flaws:

 

1. Chapter 1 in particular is high on promise, low on execution. The prologue on Ord Mantell sets up a pretty interesting story. You've got the interplay of corrupt bureaucrats and "dedicated" soldiers. You've got a personal connection to the story and potential for a direct vendetta against the traitors. And none of that plays out. After Coruscant, the overarching story just vanishes. The traitors can be replaced with any generic grunt (and on Nar Shaddaa, even was done so!) and nothing changes. Jek Kardan makes a big deal about how important it is to try and reason with the traitors and bring them back...but he never appears again after bringing up that potential thread. I should also note that related to obstructive bureaucracy, you never get to really do anything about what a complete dillweed Garza is, but I've heard that comes in SoR, and I haven't taken a Trooper through that yet, so there might still be a chance.

 

2. Chapters 2 and 3 didn't have that problem, but they also never really got compelling in the first place. Chapter 2 is just a recruitment drive, which at least feels a little more logical compared to the "oh and by the way you coincidentally get your last two companions on Balmorra and Hoth" like happened in the other class stories, and similarly, the final mission was great, so it worked, but it's banal. Chapter 3 felt more like an "Agent" story than a "Trooper" story, the game making a big point of keeping you away from the front and freeing up more important squads...I get game limitations but it still felt weird that the supposedly most elite Special Forces group, but again, there was nothing really interesting going on as a result.

 

3. Havoc Squad isn't a squad. Outside of the assault on the Gauntlet, which I mentioned a bit above, but really should note, was an absolutely fantastic mission, "Havoc Squad" is never really more than their one leader. They are absolutely inept at any mission with multiple objectives (it's coming more in a minute). After the Gauntlet, your squad once again takes a back seat, outside of being able to pull one of them out to fight with you.

 

4. Partially as a result of the above, we run into "trauma" overload. As mentioned, despite being so "elite" Havoc Squad is demonstrated to be pathetic any time a mission has more than one box to check off on the objective list. On Coruscant you can track Wraith or save the Senator. On Tatooine you can stop the bombing or recover Fuse. On Belsavis, you can arrest the Sith or free the Dagger Wing leader. On the space station, you can rescue the POWs or the scout who found them. I'm probably forgetting a few, too. This ridiculous overload of such situations means that they all end up having less impact. "Havoc fails to accomplish anything outstanding, yet again" is pretty much theme of the story. It was evident the writer didn't learn his lesson, either, since KotFE and KotET pull the same bullcrap, and it feels as weak there as it did here (although at least in the new stuff, there's enough other compelling stuff to mostly save it).

Edited April 10, 2017 by JLazarillo

[TalonVII]

The problem here is that there are constraints due to the nature of this game(even the Agent suffers from those, somewhat). As a single player game(kinda like Republic Commando), it'd have worked MUCH better. You could feel the complete blow of your actions...maybe even get kicked out of the military at the end.

 

Yeah, it is kinda typical Warzone story, but I feel that even here people misattribute things. From the most of complaints I've seen, there is a lot of complaints about it not being military enough. But...it is! It's just that it isn't what most people think of when they think of Military. Most people think of ground or armored corps or the navy...you aren't that. You are SpecOps(or BlOps, whatever). Just like Rambo, Delta Force etc. That's why I think the base class should've been called "Commando" and the Adv.Class "Trooper"(or whatever else, really). Because you ARE a Commando!

 

I just don't understand the flak...as in "act III is horrible". How so? The Dagger Wing part was BEAUTIFUL, the Voss part was extremely logical(and kudos to Charles that he remembered to close that part of story) and Corellia...one of better Corellia stories, for sure(especially when mixed with Corellia planetary, which makes sense for Trooper anyhow). Maybe people don't understand Rakton? /shrug

 

I'll give you an example. Coming into Tatooine, the first mission where you stop those demo droids. Could of had your companion, let's say for example you have 4X(cause you have him, Jorgan and Dorne at this point). You stop the droid assault with 4X. Then you go into the cut scene, see the wounded, and call up Dorne to assist the wounded. Then you also call in Jorgan and tell him to cover the area to defend against further assaults and help the mayor.

 

Little things like that. Or for the search for Dagger wing. You take one companion, you tell the XO to take one more person and help contain the inmates, have Dorne(if she's not with you) helping treat the wounded guards etc.

 

You know, actually COMMANDING A SQUAD. And I've seen Special forces move around. I've watched from a Landing Craft Utility as a Marine while Seals did Visit Board Search Seasure. They didn't go in just 2 guys. Whole damn 8 man team went aboard and all did different jobs while searching. Not the CO takes one man, goes and does the VBSS while the rest sat on the LCU twiddling their thumbs.

 

Sorry this story has no clue how real SPECFOR operates.

[TalonVII]

I'll give you an example. Coming into Tatooine, the first mission where you stop those demo droids. Could of had your companion, let's say for example you have 4X(cause you have him, Jorgan and Dorne at this point). You stop the droid assault with 4X. Then you go into the cut scene, see the wounded, and call up Dorne to assist the wounded. Then you also call in Jorgan and tell him to cover the area to defend against further assaults and help the mayor.

 

Little things like that. Or for the search for Dagger wing. You take one companion, you tell the XO to take one more person and help contain the inmates, have Dorne(if she's not with you) helping treat the wounded guards etc.

 

You know, actually COMMANDING A SQUAD. And I've seen Special forces move around. I've watched from a Landing Craft Utility as a Marine while Seals did Visit Board Search Seasure. They didn't go in just 2 guys. Whole damn 8 man team went aboard and all did different jobs while searching. Not the CO takes one man, goes and does the VBSS while the rest sat on the LCU twiddling their thumbs.

 

Sorry this story has no clue how real SPECFOR operates.

 

Take the mission to rescue the the POWs that had Jaxo. Why not have 2 of your squad secure the ship and the escape route, 2 more head to recover Jaxo while you and one more move to get the prisoners out? Would of made more sense if you ask me.

 

Kinds of things in the story that irk me.

[light_senshi]

4. Partially as a result of the above, we run into "trauma" overload. As mentioned, despite being so "elite" Havoc Squad is demonstrated to be pathetic any time a mission has more than one box to check off on the objective list. On Coruscant you can track Wraith or save the Senator. On Tatooine you can stop the bombing or recover Fuse. On Belsavis, you can arrest the Sith or free the Dagger Wing leader. On the space station, you can rescue the POWs or the scout who found them. I'm probably forgetting a few, too. This ridiculous overload of such situations means that they all end up having less impact. "Havoc fails to accomplish anything outstanding, yet again" is pretty much theme of the story. It was evident the writer didn't learn his lesson, either, since KotFE and KotET pull the same bullcrap, and it feels as weak there as it did here (although at least in the new stuff, there's enough other compelling stuff to mostly save it).

 

This particular phenomena isn't limited the trooper but certainly is the most glaring there. Once you hit multiple companions in any of the class story-lines, you generate this phenomena.

 

Another example, just to pick one, is on Tat when you're doing the story quest and you choose to go run around and fix the former security guard's farming machines. Why can't I send T7 and C2 to do that while the JK and Kira run around doing quests?

[JLazarillo]

This particular phenomena isn't limited the trooper but certainly is the most glaring there. Once you hit multiple companions in any of the class story-lines, you generate this phenomena.

 

Another example, just to pick one, is on Tat when you're doing the story quest and you choose to go run around and fix the former security guard's farming machines. Why can't I send T7 and C2 to do that while the JK and Kira run around doing quests?

I think what makes it worse for Troopers is that it's all in the same "mission". Like, using the Tatooine example, my Knight can just not take the mission to collect 20 womp rat asses or whatever while I'm busy trying to stop a super weapon from destroying the planet. My Trooper gets told "get Fuse back and stop the bombers" and has to choose between the two. And in context, it makes even less sense, since there's no legitimate story reason that only my Trooper and Forex are in the base (and heck, even then, because we can split up!).

 

It's sort of an irony with creating the illusion of choice. The best example is in KotET, but same writer, so I think it's fair to use, but I'mma also spoiler it out since this topic isn't about that:

 

We're told "choices matter" because we can only save Vette or Torian. But in truth the decision is the result of choices not mattering in the first place...otherwise, there would be a way to save both (or perhaps even for both to die). We have a "choice" of who lives, but we have no choice to avoid the scenario.

 

It's the flagrant and unnecessary dichotomies like these that weaken the story, IMO.

Edited April 10, 2017 by JLazarillo

[Cuiwe]

I'll give you an example. Coming into Tatooine, the first mission where you stop those demo droids. Could of had your companion, let's say for example you have 4X(cause you have him, Jorgan and Dorne at this point). You stop the droid assault with 4X. Then you go into the cut scene, see the wounded, and call up Dorne to assist the wounded. Then you also call in Jorgan and tell him to cover the area to defend against further assaults and help the mayor.

 

Little things like that. Or for the search for Dagger wing. You take one companion, you tell the XO to take one more person and help contain the inmates, have Dorne(if she's not with you) helping treat the wounded guards etc.

 

You know, actually COMMANDING A SQUAD. And I've seen Special forces move around. I've watched from a Landing Craft Utility as a Marine while Seals did Visit Board Search Seasure. They didn't go in just 2 guys. Whole damn 8 man team went aboard and all did different jobs while searching. Not the CO takes one man, goes and does the VBSS while the rest sat on the LCU twiddling their thumbs.

 

Sorry this story has no clue how real SPECFOR operates.

 

1. Game limitations. I know that TAC / SEAL teams go like 6-8 at a time. And if this game were like "Republic Commando", you'd get that.

 

2. Be as it may, I wasn't referring that when I mentioned SPECFORs. I was referring the erroneous line of thought that some people have that in Act III, you should be on the front line. But, but! Aren't we SPECFORs? Don't they rescue PoWs, destroy high priority targets etc? Kinda like in Act III? Corellia is an exception because Garza obviously pulled few strings to give you the de facto command over the forces on Corellia.

[SithKoriandr]

1. Game limitations. I know that TAC / SEAL teams go like 6-8 at a time. And if this game were like "Republic Commando", you'd get that.

 

2. Be as it may, I wasn't referring that when I mentioned SPECFORs. I was referring the erroneous line of thought that some people have that in Act III, you should be on the front line. But, but! Aren't we SPECFORs? Don't they rescue PoWs, destroy high priority targets etc? Kinda like in Act III? Corellia is an exception because Garza obviously pulled few strings to give you the de facto command over the forces on Corellia.

 

I don't know if I'd say it's a game limitation. It wouldn't have been hard to show clips of the rest of the crew doing things, while spouting some orders here and there.

 

Though, Warrior, at least, at one point, seems to make note that it's only the Warrior and one other doing things together on the planet (Hoth) while the rest stay on the ship.

[TalonVII]

1. Game limitations. I know that TAC / SEAL teams go like 6-8 at a time. And if this game were like "Republic Commando", you'd get that.

 

2. Be as it may, I wasn't referring that when I mentioned SPECFORs. I was referring the erroneous line of thought that some people have that in Act III, you should be on the front line. But, but! Aren't we SPECFORs? Don't they rescue PoWs, destroy high priority targets etc? Kinda like in Act III? Corellia is an exception because Garza obviously pulled few strings to give you the de facto command over the forces on Corellia.

 

I'm not talking about the actual combat or open world. I'm talking Cut scenes. And it has already been done with the Gauntlet Missions and Breaking in to get Rakton.

 

Least on the Corellia missions you were in control of the OP and could order people what to do and where to go and you actually felt like you were leading an actual ground force.

[Shayddow]

Basically what you want is to be able to run missions with more than 1 companion at a time, to make it more in-line with real Spec Forces operations.

While I don't see that happening with the vanilla 1-50 story because of mechanical and "historic" limitations, I have seen more things along this line with newer content - on the gemini ship for example <although you can't really "do" anything with the other companions", or on the "plunder" mission where you have both Gault and Vette.

Although this is a limitation of the KOTET and etc story altogether. I'd like you both to be able to use the "companion-of choice" for the story - AND one of the companions <of YOUR CHOICE> that you have already "liberated" according to the story or an "alliance" mission. Not just be stuck with only Theron or Lana or whoever. <My warrior would love to be able to fight someone like Vaylin with Xalek by her side>.

And there's still plenty of companions left over to sit back on the ship and craft yet more "components".

[bengisuus]

its a boring class with boring companions.Yes..even private kitty

[Scarletlux]

Trooper story was boring. Men trooper story was better, because of Jaxo dilemma. But as others have said, the companions are boring I didn't like any of them. Love interest was boring too. Getting Balkar as companion would have made it better. Don't like Jorgan and don't like Elara.

[Cuiwe]

Basically what you want is to be able to run missions with more than 1 companion at a time, to make it more in-line with real Spec Forces operations.

While I don't see that happening with the vanilla 1-50 story because of mechanical and "historic" limitations, I have seen more things along this line with newer content - on the gemini ship for example <although you can't really "do" anything with the other companions", or on the "plunder" mission where you have both Gault and Vette.

Although this is a limitation of the KOTET and etc story altogether. I'd like you both to be able to use the "companion-of choice" for the story - AND one of the companions <of YOUR CHOICE> that you have already "liberated" according to the story or an "alliance" mission. Not just be stuck with only Theron or Lana or whoever. <My warrior would love to be able to fight someone like Vaylin with Xalek by her side>.

And there's still plenty of companions left over to sit back on the ship and craft yet more "components".

 

You can actually do this rather easily via a GSI droid buff state. You know? But why am I talking about this instead of Bioware? Look, it took me ~1 minute to think of it and I'd implement it within half an hour...just says leaps and bounds about how much BW respects us(not at all).

 

@TalonVii, agreed. I'd have liked more command decisions(and no, not of the Jaxo / Fuse / Dagger Wing type - actual OP command like on Gauntlet or on Corellia). But it's fine as it is.

 

And, everyone who says "it is boring / I don't like it"...care to elaborate? Because, that is really not an answer, you know? At least it isn't here where I am trying to gather data(and understand it) and "I don't like it" is basically zero sum towards that goal. So, if you'd just be a bit more detailed, it'd be grand! Thanks!

Edited April 16, 2017 by Cuiwe

[Codedrago]

For me, the Trooper story does well enough on what it's supposed to be. But there's so much more that could of been done. I think two big flaws are the villain and the placement of plot points: Rakton is boring as hell and has little presence in the story even when he's being mentioned. I hate the Inquisitor story, but I can fully say that Thanaton at least was interesting in some aspect and had a presence throughout the story. Hell, I'm pretty sure you only talk to Rakton in two missions. Once in the Jaxo mission and again at the end. And playing though the Esseles again, I really wish Killran and Rakton switched roles.

 

And with the plot points, I think the story started off with a major mis-step. Havoc's betrayal and you joining Havoc squad should not of happened at the start, instead this should of been saved for the end of act 2. Think about it. You should start the story off as the talented young soldier that slowly builds up a name for themselves while pulling together their own squad, the prologue and act one revolve around you stopping various operaitions ran by the empire, which slowly starts to hint at the republic having a high ranking spy in their midst. Garza takes a shining to you because your further investigation of this is strictly off the books.

 

Throughout all this you have various encounters with Havoc Squad, who are constantly built up as these great Heroes (Tavus acting as your mentor figure who reacts accordingly to what he discovers you've been doing). You even get an opportunity to see them at work in a major operation, with them saving your arse once and showing just how effective they are. The story would take this opportunity to always compare you to them, as a lot of the characters you come across in act 1 say things like "Wow, you're just like Havoc Squad!" and "Urg, Havoc Squad would of done better", drawing possibly envy, jealousy or anger from the player towards Havoc Squad. Then act 1 ends with you kicking arse and earning your squad the respect they deserve.

 

Act 2 is all around you teaming up with Havoc and another big squad to assault the Gauntlet, gathering Intel and hitting the Empire in strategic locations to prepare for this operation. Then Act 2 has it's awesome squad attack, you blow some stuff up, some people get wounded and you blow up the Gauntlet... Or do you? It's here that Tavus shoots you in the back and reveals his true allegiance. Explaining to you that Havoc Squad were the traitors who were supplying the Empire with all those juicy plans back in act 1, and since you've spent all of act 1 and 2 building up a connection to Havoc Squad and have been constantly compared to them, this reveal is much more of a gut punch.

 

After this, you escape somehow and manage to get all the juicy details back to the republic (Or maybe have this mimic the end of the JK's act two and have your Trooper incarcerated in a n Imperial prison for a while before being busted out), where you finally see the war kicking off. At this point the Republic is reeling from the betrayal, receiving a crippling blow right out of the gates, they need hope; and so without warning Garza fully recommends that you become the new Havoc Squad.

 

Act 3 continues as normal, but with more interference from the previous Havoc Squad members. And while you don't get to kill them yet, you get to ruin their plans as this act is all about showing that you are the REAL Havoc Squad now as you kick their arses every step of the way. And so on Corellia, just before you face Rakton, you have a tense and climatic scene. You and Tavus find yourselves all alone, where you trade jabs at each other; depending on how you acted throughout the story Tavus will either use you as an example as to why he defected, or show remorse that he knew you'd never join him, ending with him either calling you a stain on the Havoc name or telling you that he's proud that his squad went to you.

 

With this, you'd then have that tense stare down between the old Havoc squad and the new Havoc Squad. Each member staring down their counterpart, ready to prove who's better. When you win, you get that choice on whether to imprison the Havoc Squad members or execute them in front of the rest of their troops. Everything proceeds as normal, you kill/capture Rakton, Saresh acts like a complete moron and you have one last scene as you are congratulated by Garza. If you chose to imprison Havoc Squad you see them walk past in chains. And the story ends with Tavus either glaring at you as he accepts his fate, or he joins the rest of Havoc Squad in saluting their replacements.