Banderal Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 I just got one of my beloved tanks up to 70, and now am faced with the normal gearing fiasco for PvP tanks, where I don't want any of the shield/absorb/defense that is on ALL the gear I'm going to get. So, yea, I get to gear twice like it has been since day 1 for us I guess. But, of course, now with the GC crap, it's just depressing. And I'm wondering... It sure seems to me like a really easy "fix" for the entire PvP-tank-gearing problem is to just flip the crit/shield mechanic, and make it so that shield pushes down crit instead of the the way it is now. Is there some obvious reason I'm missing, either PvP or PvE actually, as to why this is a "really bad idea"? Or is it another case of - yep, something bioware should have done a long time ago, but it doesn't affect the cartel market, so it got put on the wall-of-not-at-this-time, and so we'll never see it anyway? Sure, I know that bioware is never going to change anything for PvP, but I was curious anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerkWork Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 (edited) As for why shielding trumps crit in the philosophy of combat in Swtor: Because this was designed back at launch based on similar MMOs and for a different time in the game's history. This is before Auto Crit Set bonuses, Super Crit and before the combining of Crit and Surge. Before most specs ran little crit and overall crit % for classes was proportionally and overall lower. In plain terms it was few big crits vs lots of medium crits today. (This is why they nerfed most classes 30% Surge Bonus). Also, this after a massive increase in Stats as well. But before for example in 3.0 god tier crit % for a lightning sorc was somewhere around 30% with and average between 25-28%. Compared today of average of 48%-50% and higher. So the problem was all these changes occurred but due to lack of people and/or interest in reworking shielding it remains as is. Edit: Not an argument for or against but saying why it is so. Edited March 6, 2017 by FerkWork Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellow_ Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 (edited) It sure seems to me like a really easy "fix" for the entire PvP-tank-gearing problem is to just flip the crit/shield mechanic, and make it so that shield pushes down crit instead of the the way it is now. Is there some obvious reason I'm missing, either PvP or PvE actually, as to why this is a "really bad idea"? I'm open to argument on this but, in my opinion, the main problem with mitigation stats in PVP is not the weirdness around shielding crits, how useless defense rating is for damage being redirected through guard, and so on. The real issue is that mitigation stats are completely unnecessary to being tanky enough to get your job done. With a complement of good teammates and proper cooldown cycling, all that running a ton of mitigation gear will do for you in MANY scenarios is ruin the amount of damage that you can do. And that extra damage can actually have a significant positive impact for your team (unlike thousands of stat spent on mitigation that often has no impact on the outcome of a fight). Bioware can make mitigation stats better and I will still not use them most of the time. tl;dr you can, far more often than not, get away with DPS gear - so why wouldn't you? Edited March 5, 2017 by yellow_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banderal Posted March 6, 2017 Author Share Posted March 6, 2017 As for why shielding trumps crit in the philosophy of combat in Swtor: Because this was designed back at launch based on similar MMOs and for a different time in the game's history. This is before Auto Crit Set bonuses, Super Crit and before the combining of Crit and Surge. Before most specs ran little crit and overall crit % for classes was proportionally and overall lower. In plain terms it was few big crits vs lots of medium crits today. (This is why they nerfed most classes 30% Surge Bonus). Also, this after a massive increase in Stats as well. But before for example in 3.0 god tier crit % for a lightning sorc was somewhere around 30% with and average between 25-28%. Compared today of average of 48%-50% and higher. So the problem was all these changes occurred but due to lack of people and/or interest in reworking shielding it remains as is. Edit: Not an argument for or against but saying why it is so. Ah I see. I was not into the mechanics details of the game at all when I first started (I didn't even PvP until max level, because I thought you were not supposed to). I didn't realize all the auto-crit stuff came later. Thanks for the explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banderal Posted March 6, 2017 Author Share Posted March 6, 2017 I'm open to argument on this but, in my opinion, the main problem with mitigation stats in PVP is not the weirdness around shielding crits, how useless defense rating is for damage being redirected through guard, and so on. The real issue is that mitigation stats are completely unnecessary to being tanky enough to get your job done. With a complement of good teammates and proper cooldown cycling, all that running a ton of mitigation gear will do for you in MANY scenarios is ruin the amount of damage that you can do. And that extra damage can actually have a significant positive impact for your team (unlike thousands of stat spent on mitigation that often has no impact on the outcome of a fight). Bioware can make mitigation stats better and I will still not use them most of the time. tl;dr you can, far more often than not, get away with DPS gear - so why wouldn't you? Yeah, I can see your point. I think it depends on that word you capitalized... "MANY", and the type of game you are in. I *think* I see a benefit of the extra survivability over DPS in 8s, where I often end up the solo guard, and I have to survive long enough for someone on my team to notice and actually respond. If I'm fighting off 3 or 4 enemy at the off node, there's no way I'm going to take them all down with a bit of extra DPS. I need to survive as long as possible so that my team can get there. If I have a decent team, then I don't necessarily have to survive that long, but I solo queue most of the time, so that answers that question about "a decent team". In huttball, though, I have definitely cursed at my lack of damage when the other side has the ball, and I can't seem to help bring down the ball carrier at all. (Barring "pull into fire". ) On the other hand, it seems to me extra DPS might be more ("even more"?) applicable to 4s. There isn't really "surviving long enough for the rest of your team to get there and pick up the slack" in that mode. Your team is already "there", right? And the whole point is to kill them fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eli_Porter Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 (edited) Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't damage taken from guarded targets mitigated by shield regardless of whether it was inflicted by a crit or not? Edited March 6, 2017 by Eli_Porter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerkWork Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Ah I see. I was not into the mechanics details of the game at all when I first started (I didn't even PvP until max level, because I thought you were not supposed to). I didn't realize all the auto-crit stuff came later. Thanks for the explanation. Yeah 3.0 addition of Auto crit set bonus and 4.0 Crit/Surge Changes really changed how we gear in both PvE and PvP (now most specs are identical stat wise in there area) I should add only two skill trees and one class had an auto crit at the time: Auto Crit Rail Shot for old AP I believe (now new pyro) and TB on a Lightening Sorc. Both weren't that hard hitting though IIRC. Snipers Laze Target also wasn't that big in crit %. Yeah times move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoopicus Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 If anything, the very very last thing the current meta needs is more mitigation and less damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falkron-kerupt Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 its simple because no one likes trump. =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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