PvPers don't want Player vs. Gear

[Wimbleton]

Exactly, when I put a 236 hilt on my weapon from a 230, there was a considerable jump in my damage overall, I can only imagine what it would jump to at 242, and having ALL 242 gear would make my damage ridiculous. ATM though I have had a WHOLE 3 set pieces drop in 80 cxp levels. I do not have the TIME to grind day in and day out. There is not enough content in this game to warrant this grind, and even with the changes coming 5,2 , it is not enough, this is the least popular system EVER in this game, and it is honestly time for the devs to own up and say this system is bad and they are working on something new.

 

Weapon/offhand have focus power on them, which offers the largest single item gain in stats available and is why people focus on those two items.

 

I think you might see a large jump if for some reason you had all 236 gear and then went to all 242 gear instantly. But you'll be upgrading around 2 to 6 item levels per upgrade and the incremental difference is negligible (outside of weapon/offhand). Over time, yeah, o/c it makes a difference. The slightest difference matters in PvP.

[Vember]

Why don't you put up some pictures showing the armor pieces and the total time played?

 

That's nearly 3000 UC. At 5 UC per win (before the recent changes) that'd be 600 PvP wins and 1200 games assuming 50% win ratio. After getting to level 70 before the current XP boost event. This amounts to 20+ hours per day of PvPing at level 70.

 

It averages out to about half and half with drops from crates. I've done this now on two different characters. Since I'm sick of losing, I'm now going to do it on an imp.

[Bobby_McDonald]

Firstly, you cannot tell someone that you refuse to believe his/her experience or observations because that defeats the purpose of having any type of discussion.

 

I agree. On the other hand you can not make assumptions and demand others to take those for facts:

 

I have noticed a difference in my performance when i moved from 208 rating gear to 230 rating. My DPS and survivability increased. I didn't suddenly became a better PvPer neither did my opponents suddenly became less adept at playing.

 

This is an assumption. You can play 100 warzones and your DPS and "survivability" will never be the same. There will even be a huge up and down.

 

Survivability is not even measurable unless we are talking about the numbers of deaths. And the number of deaths, I guess many will agree, depends on how many and what healers you have and how good your enemies can focus you.

 

This is because in PvP what counts the most is still the skill of your team and the skill of the enemy team.

 

As an average player you can do 4k dps without being defeated once in a game against under-average players and in the next game you get defeated 10 x by two premades and have only 2,5k dps. Your dps will change from game to game by much more than 50%. Also your "survivabilty" (I talk about deaths here) will change accordingly to your healers and the enemies damage.

 

This is not even a matter of opinion, but a matter of fact; HP, damage and defense increases are the facts and the suggestion that they increase your overall performance is not unreasonable.

 

Lets talk about facts then: It is just not true that your dps and survivability changed from 208 to 230 due to gear. Just today I checked whether I should actually change my old 208 PvP Gear to 230 and my stats DEcreased in warzones when equipping 230!

 

Here are the facts:

 

Changing one not-augmented 208 Relic to one not-augmented 230 Relic:

 

Mastery: -60 points

Endurance: -60 points

Power: +/- 0

Bonus damage (both highest and lowest value): -18

 

Unfortunately I have no character with a full set of 230 and 208 both. Would be awesome if someone could do the math for all pieces.

 

You will gain 111 more mastery and power through the relics but that only makes up for the loss you already have by equipping the relics.

 

So: the increase in DPS and survivability that you experienced can not come from the change of gear. Actually you probably lost potential DPS because of that. But no one ever reaches his DPS potential in a warzone. There are stuns Deffs, etc.

 

It would be very nice, if someone could hit a dummy with both full 242 and 230 gear for a few million of damage. Then we would know exactly about how much perfentage of POTENTIAL dps we are talking here.

 

In the end you will find out, that in a wz you will reach not even half of your potential dps (which is about 12k with bolster I think) and your results will vary from game to game even if your gear and the enemies gear remains unchanged.

 

What would you say to someone in ranked that has 210 greens? The first thing players check is your gear, and if you are missing a stim you get cussed out for it.

 

While writing this, I queue with my sin in mostly 208 gear for solo ranked. Only my focus is 240. I changed my earpiece and a relic against 230 and I regret it since I found out that my stats are decreasing by that. Unfortunately I already got rid of the old 208 relic and earpiece

 

I am doing totally fine in ranked with any gear and no one ever complained about my gear. In the end you rather want skilled unequipped players and not equipped unskilled players.

 

And especially in ranked you often find PvE-Players in full 242 who were running fractured 24/7 and now think that they can rule in PvP. And then they are globaled easily because they forgot or never learned how to play their class while grinding.

 

On all my five active characters I have played around 800 solo ranked matches this season. Only one of them has 242/240 rating gear, the rest is still in 208.

 

Never ever did I have the feeling that I lost or won a game because of gear reasons. Most teams are so unbalanced in player skill, that gear doesn't matter at all. You get one going-to-be-globaled-mate in your team and the match is lost already. Those guys would even get globaled with the highest possible HP because they don't know how to kite and how their abilites work.

 

I only remember one very very close game, where gear could have mattered, since the one with more HP has a good chance to win the acid in a 1vs1. Unfortunately I failed here because I got kicked in the acid by my opponent. So I would have lost anyway, the gear didn't matter.

[Ottoattack]

To people saying gear does not matter, if you compare full 228s with no set bonus to a full 242 with set bonus, between the difference in stats and the bonus from the set you are looking at a minimum 50% output difference. It is even worse if you are not in 228s and augged.

 

Getting into the skill argument is irrelevant. Not cuz it does not matter, but that the basic assumption of PvP is skill vs skill and that everything else should be held equal When you do not, it becomes skewed by what ever factor you change, and the gear factor is gigantic because:

 

1) The difference in stats is huge.

2) Gear is largely in accessible.

 

Something has to change, especially that their will a 4th tier of gear.

[Kurj]

*snip*

 

Something has to change, especially that their will a 4th tier of gear.

 

I don't know if it's going to be that much different than it was under 4.x. My impression is that, even when you could earn comms pre-65, most folks didn't PVP until they got to max level. That meant you were getting worked over pretty hard core until you got your 204s. Back then it wasn't a big deal because you could gear so quickly. They say it will work that way now too with increased set bonus drop rates for Tier 1. I don't hold my breath for anything they say these days, but if that works as advertised, for the majority of players, the new system may be roughly equivalent to the old when bolster is taken into account.

[Purgamentorum]

 

 

 

Lets talk about facts then: It is just not true that your dps and survivability changed from 208 to 230 due to gear. Just today I checked whether I should actually change my old 208 PvP Gear to 230 and my stats DEcreased in warzones when equipping 230!

 

 

You miss the point. New players won't have 208's. No set bonus till 230. If you discourage new players then swtor has a very very limited life span. And please don't tell me they don't exist. I see new players and returning players from launch all the time.

[jedcjedcjedc]

To people saying gear does not matter, if you compare full 228s with no set bonus to a full 242 with set bonus, between the difference in stats and the bonus from the set you are looking at a minimum 50% output difference. It is even worse if you are not in 228s and augged.

 

Getting into the skill argument is irrelevant. Not cuz it does not matter, but that the basic assumption of PvP is skill vs skill and that everything else should be held equal When you do not, it becomes skewed by what ever factor you change, and the gear factor is gigantic because:

 

1) The difference in stats is huge.

2) Gear is largely in accessible.

 

Something has to change, especially that their will a 4th tier of gear.

 

wow, who knew that 50% of my output was from my gear just jumping from 228! Guess it must be an astronomical difference being in 208's then..... no wait....no, no it's not.

Edited March 7, 2017 by jedcjedcjedc

[Bobby_McDonald]

You miss the point. New players won't have 208's. No set bonus till 230. If you discourage new players then swtor has a very very limited life span. And please don't tell me they don't exist. I see new players and returning players from launch all the time.

 

The point here is that someone had "the feeling of increasing dps and survivability" and he blaimed it on gear EVENTHOUGH actually he decreased his stats by using higher rated gear. Many people here blaim experiences like getting globaled or "destroyed" - in their words - on a gear gap, that actually do not arise from this gear gap but from a skill gap.

 

I repeat: I also dream of a PvP where only skill matters. But what I want to achieve with this arguments is that people finally aim for improving their class knowledge instead of using gear as an excuse for everything.

 

If your team gets "destroyed" then either you or your team or both know less about pvping with your classes than the other team. Gear gap adds to it but if you refuse to accept that you need to do for example keybinding to be competitive with above-average pvpers, you will never solve the underlying problem.

[Ottoattack]

wow, who knew that 50% of my output was from my gear just jumping from 228! Guess it must be an astronomical difference being in 208's then..... no wait....no, no it's not.

 

Yes it is. Try 208 with no additional items (no 240 MH or OH) and compare with full 242. The difference in tech/force power alone will be over 500, which is 12-15% or so. Do that for every stats. Add them up. Factor in the set bonus. 50% effectiveness is under estimating it.

[Ottoattack]

The point here is that someone had "the feeling of increasing dps and survivability" and he blaimed it on gear EVENTHOUGH actually he decreased his stats by using higher rated gear. Many people here blaim experiences like getting globaled or "destroyed" - in their words - on a gear gap, that actually do not arise from this gear gap but from a skill gap.

 

I repeat: I also dream of a PvP where only skill matters. But what I want to achieve with this arguments is that people finally aim for improving their class knowledge instead of using gear as an excuse for everything.

 

If your team gets "destroyed" then either you or your team or both know less about pvping with your classes than the other team. Gear gap adds to it but if you refuse to accept that you need to do for example keybinding to be competitive with above-average pvpers, you will never solve the underlying problem.

 

You know how it can be easily fixed? Setting bolster at 250, and ensure everyone gets that stats regardless of their gear. MIND BLOWN

 

I must be a genius or the people running this game are dumb. I know I am not the earlier.

Edited March 7, 2017 by Ottoattack

[mike_carton]

Yes it is. Try 208 with no additional items (no 240 MH or OH) and compare with full 242. The difference in tech/force power alone will be over 500, which is 12-15% or so. Do that for every stats. Add them up. Factor in the set bonus. 50% effectiveness is under estimating it.

 

Tried this on a Consular. Currently the character is in 236-240 mix. Swapped out the 7 gear items and mainhand to purple 208s (from 4.x FlashPoint drops) Note that the offhand and left-side items are still 236-240 in both the cases below.

 

236-240 mix

Melee Primary: 3242-3777

Melee Bonus: 2173.4

Force Bonus: 3206.5

 

Purple 208s

Melee Primary: 2154-2489

Melee Bonus: 1482.7

Force Bonus: 2323.3

 

Edited March 7, 2017 by mike_carton

[mike_carton]

It averages out to about half and half with drops from crates. I've done this now on two different characters. Since I'm sick of losing, I'm now going to do it on an imp.

 

That is not what you said or implied in your post (#36).

 

You're now saying you got ~7 Golds 236s in crates and bought another ~7 using components from Pub-side PvP after levelling a character from 1 to 70 before the current XP boost event; all in 2 weeks. This new version still doesn't add up. But I'll not pursue this further.

[Vember]

That is not what you said or implied in your post (#36).

 

You're now saying you got ~7 Golds 236s in crates and bought another ~7 using components from Pub-side PvP after levelling a character from 1 to 70 before the current XP boost event; all in 2 weeks. This new version still doesn't add up. But I'll not pursue this further.

 

I don't remember exactly how many came from crates and how many came from purchases, but yes. It took me two weeks. Except I have a 234 implant and a 234 relic. Everything else is 236, so that's close enough to "full 236" for me. I created my Vanguard after the xp event started, so yes it was done during the xp event.

Edited March 7, 2017 by Vember

[Bobby_McDonald]

Tried this on a Consular. Currently the character is in 236-240 mix. Swapped out the 7 gear items and mainhand to purple 208s (from 4.x FlashPoint drops) Note that the offhand and left-side items are still 236-240 in both the cases below.

 

236-240 mix

Melee Primary: 3242-3777

Melee Bonus: 2173.4

Force Bonus: 3206.5

 

Purple 208s

Melee Primary: 2154-2489

Melee Bonus: 1482.7

Force Bonus: 2323.3

 

 

Please don't tell me you and Ottoattack are simply comparing unbolstered stats to proof that the gear gap stand for a 50% output difference. I have a full 208 old not-augmented PvP Set and the Stats WITH bolster look like this:

 

Melee Primary: 3144-3612

Melee Bonus: 2209.1

Force Bonus: 3112.8

 

The gear gap never explains dps differences of 50% and more. Its a skill gap!

Edited March 7, 2017 by Bobby_McDonald

[Purgamentorum]

Tried this on a Consular. Currently the character is in 236-240 mix. Swapped out the 7 gear items and mainhand to purple 208s (from 4.x FlashPoint drops) Note that the offhand and left-side items are still 236-240 in both the cases below.

 

236-240 mix

Melee Primary: 3242-3777

Melee Bonus: 2173.4

Force Bonus: 3206.5

 

Purple 208s

Melee Primary: 2154-2489

Melee Bonus: 1482.7

Force Bonus: 2323.3

 

 

These are the sorts of figures I am getting as well when testing. But people still believe that overnight they became pvp gods, or cryed about the DvL gear and now don't want to lose their advantage. Does this mean ranked rating are absolutely worthless now?

[mmmbuddah]

Please don't tell me you and Ottoattack are simply comparing unbolstered stats to proof that the gear gap stand for a 50% output difference. I have a full 208 old not-augmented PvP Set and the Stats WITH bolster look like this:

 

Melee Primary: 3144-3612

Melee Bonus: 2209.1

Force Bonus: 3112.8

 

The gear gap never explains dps differences of 50% and more. Its a skill gap!

 

That is still over 600 pri difference from 230/236. At 230/236 I have 4100- 4200 pri with my gunslinger and commando 4050- 4100 with my vanguard . That is a monstrous difference. And that doesn't take into account alacrity, crit, and defense boosts from the better gear. Now imagine from full 230 - full 242. It is an insane difference, and pvp has literally become "who has been the luckiest and has the most 242 pieces " I know when I face someone using 208s I face roll them, when I face someone with 242s I cant even make a dent in their health.

Edited March 8, 2017 by mmmbuddah

[Eli_Porter]

Still waiting on someone to post full 232 bolstered vs. 242 stats on the same char. Edited March 8, 2017 by Eli_Porter

[jedcjedcjedc]

That is still over 600 pri difference from 230/236. At 230/236 I have 4100- 4200 pri with my gunslinger and commando 4050- 4100 with my vanguard . That is a monstrous difference. And that doesn't take into account alacrity, crit, and defense boosts from the better gear. Now imagine from full 230 - full 242. It is an insane difference, and pvp has literally become "who has been the luckiest and has the most 242 pieces " I know when I face someone using 208s I face roll them, when I face someone with 242s I cant even make a dent in their health.

 

 

edit:

Still waiting on someone to post full 232 bolstered vs. 242 stats on the same char.

grabbing SS's

 

A few points to keep in mind:

1. This was done using the bolsterizer, I am not 100% sure if that matches the bolster of an actual match.

2. For some reason I could not find my second 208 relic, so I used a 230 one instead.

3. Last, but probably most important, when I started gearing I used my 208 combat medic set as a base, so all my 208 augments have been replaced. Meaning in this comparison it is using unagmented 208's vs 228 augmented 240/242's. That is going to make a bit of difference.

 

Bolsterizer Screenshots

Edited March 8, 2017 by jedcjedcjedc

[mmmbuddah]

edit:

 

grabbing SS's

 

A few points to keep in mind:

1. This was done using the bolsterizer, I am not 100% sure if that matches the bolster of an actual match.

2. For some reason I could not find my second 208 relic, so I used a 230 one instead.

3. Last, but probably most important, when I started gearing I used my 208 combat medic set as a base, so all my 208 augments have been replaced. Meaning in this comparison it is using unagmented 208's vs 228 augmented 240/242's. That is going to make a bit of difference.

 

Bolsterizer Screenshots

 

Those are in warzone stats. So bolstered.

[Eli_Porter]

Would like a comparison with augments.

 

It's worth noting that as far as mastery+power are concerned, it's just a 3% difference.

Edited March 8, 2017 by Eli_Porter

[mmmbuddah]

Would like a comparison with augments.

 

It's worth noting that as far as mastery+power are concerned, it's just a 3% difference.

 

In pvp though, every percent counts.

[Eli_Porter]

In pvp though, every percent counts.

 

Not gonna argue against that. I just think it's important that PvP'ers know exactly what gear disadvantage they're put in before blaming it for their losses instead of trying to improve.

[jedcjedcjedc]

it's also worth mentioning that this is 208's unaugmented vs 242 augmented. meaning the furthest difference possible, unless you haven't been on in well, years, and are still wearing war hero or something. (I still have that ) Edited March 8, 2017 by jedcjedcjedc

[mmmbuddah]

it's also worth mentioning that this is 208's unaugmented vs 242 augmented. meaning the furthest difference possible, unless you haven't been on in well, years, and are still wearing war hero or something. (I still have that )

 

Dont have 242s yet, i have tops 2 236 pieces which are in my guns and the rest are still 230, JUST got my full set last night.

[Sith-Viscera]

WHAT?! You didnt have to TOUCH pve in order to get the starter pvp gear for the old way. The old way you could amass warzone comms while leveling to 60, and then AT 60 you could buy yourself a full set of pvp gear. Done and done. Then it took a few weeks to get top end pvp gear, and then you started to min / max. Then BW decided to completely get rid of that because it was "too complicated and grindy" ONLY TO REPLACE IT WITH THIS NONSENSE! :mad: :mad:

 

All i grind now is pvp, and i gotten better gear now in a lot less time, still a long time but shorter then the old way. i wouldn't do it back in the old days, cause of that reason the pve and pvp the time oh god the time waiting for group finder, or begging in gen chat to get groups for this and that. just to finally get into one and get kicked out just because the gear just isn't perfect or you get kicked for not doing something the way the leader would do it, Like your a freaking mind reader and they kick ya. Hell Because of that BS i stopped doing OPS FP any thing you have to have a group and deal with Butt Holes i stopped doing. There is OPS and FPS i still havent seen in over 5 years of playing cause of that BS.

 

So yes the old way was harder, more time consuming, you had to do so many different things to get gear, and that if your lucky to get into a group and last to see the end and when the gear dropped, every one became sharks and grabbed the good stuff and i was left with scraps. All that time doing that to get nothing. Now I come in play 6 pvp matches maybe a couple of solo ranks after that. boom i got 1 to 3 good piece of gear and i am done for the day on one alt and moving on to one of my other 11 out of 12 alts, i usually do 2 to 4 alts a day and they all get 1 to 3 pieces of good gear, hell 2 of my toons my main and an alt already in 3rd tier. So yeah this new way is some what frustrating but its do-able not like before, at least not for me. Before i played all the pvp and just get a relic or a chest piece and because i stopped doing all the other BS every one else had top gear and i didn't have a chance to compete at all. Now i am mid to top player in unrank depending which class im playing, and i can play solo where before i wouldn't dare on any class, so. JMO!