Galactic Command uses negative psychological reinforcement, not positive

[Halinalle]

2: This system is designed to give you minimal rewards for maximum time (and money) investment (see 1)

 

From CR 50 to CR 160 in three (3) days. Casually. Not too bad actually with good music playing in background.

 

List of rewards (only tier 2 because I don't care about tier 1 on commando anymore):

234 (blue) mainhand

234 offhand

234 legs

236 gloves x2

236 implant

236 earpiece

236 SA relic

Edited February 20, 2017 by Halinalle

[VirtualMorrigan]

From CR 50 to CR 160 in three (3) days. Casually. Not too bad actually with good music playing in background.

 

List of rewards (only tier 2 because I don't care about tier 1 on commando anymore):

234 (blue) mainhand

234 offhand

234 legs

236 gloves x2

236 implant

236 earpiece

236 SA relic

 

How many hours played? What activity? Because I am very much tempted to doubt that anything there was "casual", but please, feel free to correct me.

[CloudCastle]

I don’t care about the gear as much as I care about wanting a system where the bar won’t continually get raised with no catch-up mechanic in place. I’m concerned that someone like me, who just wants to group occasionally or challenge myself occasionally in solo content, will find eventually myself locked out because I didn’t grind enough to keep up with the ever-growing tiers and levels.

 

I have seen what a system like GC can do to a game. I played a game in the 90’s that ran on a skill-based system that you leveled through (very slow!) grinding. The more you foraged for healing herbs, the more ranks you gained in the “foraging” skill, and so on. The game had no level cap, so there was never a point where you were “done.” There were always more ranks to earn and more levels to chase in a never-ending climb. Hard core players took this to extremes, eventually outpacing the available content in the game.

 

The devs responded by continuously readjusting the level ranges of regions and creatures, pushing the range ever further ahead. One day you could be hunting swamp trolls at level 25 and the next you would log on to find out that swamp trolls were now level 35+ and you couldn’t even enter the area without being stomped. The goal posts kept moving and the game offered no way for the casual players to catch up.

 

The final straw for me came when the devs actually started taking away already earned spells and making the requirements to reacquire them ever higher. They took away an iconic spell for my class and made it so you needed to be level 70 to get it, when before it had been level 20. After playing this game for years, I was only level 37. That’s when I called it quits.

 

So when I see a system like GC, which works on the same principle, I get concerned. Can you blame me?

 

A system with consecutive, cumulative levels is unforgiving. How long until the bar for GC levels is raised yet again? How long before the baseline to enter certain content becomes tier 2 gear instead of tier 1? A system with no catch up mechanic will eventually lock players out of content altogether. I don’t want to get on that treadmill and I resent a system that relies on it to function.

[casirabit]

It would, if one were to feel stressed about lvling up GC as fast as possible, to get the highest tier gear.

 

I fall in the minority on this one, as falling behind in getting my GC lv's up, or getting the highest tier gear, hasn't concerned me on bit. My GC on any one of my lv 70 toons has gotten no higher than lv 21, and I've been in no hurry to lv it.

 

 

This. I play what I like and on which toon I like. I have a guild so if I want to do a fp or operations, guess what I can so why would I worry about what some person on the game thinks. I do what I like and that is what a game is for. For you to play what you like not what some other person decides you need to do.

[Andryah]

I don’t care about the gear as much as I care about wanting a system where the bar won’t continually get raised with no catch-up mechanic in place. I’m concerned that someone like me, who just wants to group occasionally or challenge myself occasionally in solo content, will find eventually myself locked out because I didn’t grind enough to keep up with the ever-growing tiers and levels.

 

^^ if we accept this as fact... you do not need anything from GC to stay current in the game.

 

Seriously, even high end raid guilds do not need GC to stay current and work the content they want. There are other ways, both for organized guilds AND for mostly solo, or occasional grouping. And just playing what you like when you like, you will accumulate some Cxp and gain GC ranks and get crates that may drop something you want to swap out with your current gear configuration.

 

From your described play style above, you would be fine in full 228s+Mk10 augments. You would be geared for everything except NiM OPs and you can literally go this route very inexpensively.

 

There is a general trend that has developed in recent years in MMO ----> players thinking they simply have to have the current BiS gear to play their MMO. And it gets worse when these same people insist they need it for every alt, not just their main and an alt or two that are doing aggressive content. Only about 10% of players every touch content that would require the level of gearing they seem compelled to seek.

 

But hey.. your subscription, so play the way you like. Just know that some of your assertions, assumptions, and feelings do not test well objectively.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Andryah

[Damask_Rose]

^^ if we accept this as fact... you do not need anything from GC to stay current in the game.

 

Seriously, even high end raid guilds do not need GC to stay current and work the content they want. There are other ways, both for organized guilds AND for mostly solo, or occasional grouping. And just playing what you like when you like, you will accumulate some Cxp and gain GC ranks and get crates that may drop something you want to swap out with your current gear configuration.

 

From your described play style above, you would be fine in full 228s+Mk10 augments. You would be geared for everything except NiM OPs and you can literally go this route very inexpensively.

 

There is a general trend that has developed in recent years in MMO ----> players thinking they simply have to have the current BiS gear to play their MMO. And it gets worse when these same people insist they need it for every alt, not just their main and an alt or two that are doing aggressive content. Only about 10% of players every touch content that would require the level of gearing they seem compelled to seek.

 

But hey.. your subscription, so play the way you like. Just know that some of your assertions, assumptions, and feelings do not test well objectively.

 

I haven't tried Master level chapters in 228s. Are they reasonably doable for average skilled payers in that gear tier? If I remember correctly the devs said they were tuned for 240.

[FerkWork]

And for those who do play NiM and enjoyed playing it on every alt please make boss drops 100% guarentueed specific pieces please. Just make KP EV HM drop 230 with a 236 on final boss.

[Ryenke]

^^

But hey.. your subscription, so play the way you like.

 

Or let your subscription expire because the game no longer lets you play the way you like. Mine will expire here in a short time, and I find that I'm actually looking forward to that date. I find what the OP wrote to be very true for my experience in the game since 5.0 and if that's the type of game BWA wants (and it sure seems like it is) then it's not for me.

 

OP, it genuinely upsets me that the game I invested in and loved died in November and was replaced with the galactic command game. I'm not being snarky when I say let your sub expire, I'm being honest. If you are anything like me it may just be a large relief to compensate for the missing the game, (a game which at max level only vaguely resembles what I played last year and the year before etc).

[Khaleijo]

While i can decide for myself, that i won't let GC change what i do ingame, it still does have an impact on my playing experience.

Because there are a lot of people who do feel forced to grind GC, wether they really would need it or or could circumvent it by crafting or other means doesn't really matter here, they are doing it.

Some may don't know better, others don't have the big great guild behind them or play on a almost dead server just trying to get by to reach the stuff they still enjoy.

Call them weak minded, not self aware or what ever you like, but don't deny that there are a lot of them and Bioware is banking heavily on them with this new system. If they wouldn't, we would have something better for certain, something that would not need to use these triggers to keep players "involved".

 

The problem that remains even if i still do what ever i want, as soon as i want to participate in group activities, i need players to play with.

 

Enjoying FPs? bad luck the CXP/time ratio is so bad that people rather farm mindless uprisings for the 100th time than queue up for FPs. The queue times weren't great before 5.0 either, but as tank it was acceptable, now even with a tank(dd)/healer(dd) duo, listing for all available roles, we have to wait up to 20 min, which literally means that there are exactly 2 or 3 people listing at this time.

And i'm not talking about hours late at night or in the morning, but afternoon or early evening. The server is not dead yet either, the fleet chat is buzzing, there are enough people playing in general, they just play other things because they feel forced to by GC.

 

Enjoying GSF? Well there are more players now, but having them constantly selfdestruct during deathmatch was already a problem with specific conquest weeks before 5.0, now it is even more widespread and certainly doesn't add fun for those, who are there for the fun of GSF.

Same for PvP, there are enough players just standing there afk to get the WZ done as fast as possible instead or really playing player vs player to influence the experience for those who really want to play PVP. Getting roflstomped because of gear disparity doesn't add to the fun either.

 

Yes, i could join up with my guildmates and bury myself in my little paradise world, where everything is great, the only problem is though, my guild is down from about 30 to 50 active players (depending on weekend or during the week) to only 4 now, with various interests and playing schedule. My friend list doesn't look any better, so I have to rely on GF and/or fleet chat to do group stuff. There just is almost nobody doing things, that don't give much CXP because everyone seen out in public is fixated on grinding CXP as fast as possible.

If i wanted to run Uprising: Fractured, i could choose out of several groups within seconds, but any FP maybe even specific ones to finally get my 100% HC FP Achievement done, no chance.

When searching for player via chat, the most common answer i get is, "not enough CXP" "it's not worth the trouble", "why bother with FP".

 

I can decide what to do for me alone, but if i want to do things in a group, i have to go where groups are playing and they mostly are playing GC now, not SWTOR.

[CloudCastle]

Say a casual player decides to gear up in crafted 228's and call it day, never getting past tier 1 in GC. Won't they fall behind as new tiers are added? I truly doubt the devs will keep GC at 300 levels and never raise it. Eventually the entry-level baseline for content won't be 228 anymore (and solo content is not bolstered.) This player will be left with a mountainous hill to climb as they try to catch-up. The GC thrives on instilling that concern in players as a motivating factor to keep them grinding. That doesn't feel like fun to me. Isn't there a better way?

 

From your described play style above, you would be fine in full 228s+Mk10 augments. You would be geared for everything except NiM OPs and you can literally go this route very inexpensively.

 

There is a general trend that has developed in recent years in MMO ----> players thinking they simply have to have the current BiS gear to play their MMO.

 

I have no interest in BiS and have never asked for it. I don't believe I can do Star Fortresses anymore with tier 1 gear, however, and I know I can't finish Eternal Championship. I believe I will need at least tier 2 for that.

 

I haven't tried Master level chapters in 228s. Are they reasonably doable for average skilled payers in that gear tier? If I remember correctly the devs said they were tuned for 240.

 

I couldn't, and didn't expect to be able to, although I gave it a whirl anyway. I was in mostly 230 gear.

 

OP, it genuinely upsets me that the game I invested in and loved died in November and was replaced with the galactic command game. I'm not being snarky when I say let your sub expire, I'm being honest. If you are anything like me it may just be a large relief to compensate for the missing the game, (a game which at max level only vaguely resembles what I played last year and the year before etc).

 

BW gave me some hope when they abandoned the monthly chapter format, promised new dailies and to return Malavai Quinn. I have renewed my sub to LOTRO though, so at least I have another game to go to if this one stops being fun and starts to become "work."

[Lionflash]

Won't they fall behind as new tiers are added?

 

If new tiers are added, then it will make the new "starter gear" drop in price on the GTN, and 228s will be even less expensive.

[Andryah]

I haven't tried Master level chapters in 228s. Are they reasonably doable for average skilled payers in that gear tier? If I remember correctly the devs said they were tuned for 240.

 

With a random set of 228s, and no augments.. no, not really.

 

Properly tuned stats on 228 gear for class as well as full augments, and skillfully played ... yes it's doable. There are some in our guild that have deliberately done this just for the challenge and the friendly bragging rights.

 

No cake walk by any means, which frankly is what the gear chasers seem to want... cake_walk-by-gear, to make up for shortness in skill.

 

So I guess it boils down to if a player wants a cake walk (and therefore over gear) or if put the time into properly tuning their mods for their gear, know their class, and like a challenge, which frankly is what Master Level is for in my view... the challenge.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Andryah

[Andryah]

If new tiers are added, then it will make the new "starter gear" drop in price on the GTN, and 228s will be even less expensive.

 

See... this is the fallacy of the OP... thinking that as new level progression is added to the game that the gear (both drops and crafted) will not also be upgraded accordingly.

 

Take the 4.x to 5.x move in level progression. Straight out the gate, blue crafted 220 gear in many cases was on par with much of the better gear from 4.0 (with the exception of set bonus), and 228s even more so. I expect when 6.0 drops, we will see exactly the same move in gear to keep pace with the progression of the game. It will likely come with 230 and 238 crafted gear right out the gate, and 242, 246, 250 as well via crafted from drop recipes and drop exotic materials.

 

The only time I saw crafted gear not keep up with a shift in level progression was back when 4.0 first dropped, and it was about 6 weeks later that we got the actual crafting upgrade to keep pace on that aspect of gearing. And that delay in crafting update in 4.0 might be part of why they made drop gear much easier for 4.0 then in prior expacs.

 

The only real clear advantage of crate drops (or vendor turn-ins) is the set bonus. And even some of those are kind of meh in 5.0. Of course you can grind your face on GC for gear, if that is what a player insists on doing, but it's not playing smarter, it is playing harder... and accepting the frustrations that come with it.

 

That said, probably by end of April, most of the shortcomings of GC will be largely remedied.... which gives us maybe 6 months before 6.0. Of course the players who love to complain will quickly shift to some other thing to rant about... probably once again.. the slow pace of OPs development or the alleged sad state of PvP, yada yada.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Andryah

[light_senshi]

I haven't read the entire thread but I'll comment only on the thread creator's post. Bioware has very extensively applied the "negative" in regards to it's player base. Just as one example, compare the F2P (or even preferred) restrictions verses other games.

[MandelynRain]

This is an MMO, it is supposed to advance and progress, higher levels, harder content. If you want a game that stops progressing an MMO is not that. I used to play Everquest so I tend to laugh a little at people who complain about grinding, this game is nothing compared to that grind. If you play casually do you really need the highest end gear? That is meant for OP's and hard end game content. If you aren't doing those on a regular basis do you really need it now? Play the game how you want, and if you look there are other people out there who play in similar style. Is it the best system probably not, but they are making so many changes lately, they will probably change it again. To many people to try and please and they can't please everyone.

[Bobby_McDonald]

Stop playing the game for the purpose of progressing in gear.

 

Stop it.

 

I also have the need to make visible progress and gear seems like.

 

But actually its not. By striving for bis-gear you are chasing a carrot on a stick someone is holding in front of you. As soon as you reach it, it will run away again.

 

So do not play any content anymore that you wouldn't play without 242-gear.

 

Instead of spending time for progressing in gear you should spend your time to progress in skill.

 

Master your class. This knowledge will never leave you.

 

If you are honest, you have to admit, that any avaible content is playable with 230 gear if you have mastered your class (except Kotet Ch. II in master mode maybe ). There are people who soloed all veteran mode chapters with 208 gear.

 

Just go for the content you like.

 

Don't do sm flashpoints if you only grind it for gear. No uprising grinds either. No Planetary missions if you don't enjoy the story behind.

 

If you like to be competitive start playing PvP and GSF. If you like teamplay go or train your skills for master FPs and veteran Ops.

 

And you will see that if you are into those real multiplayer contents (sorry but sm fps and uprisings are no real multiplayer content since you can solo them with your companion) you will see that theu additionally reward you with a huge amount of CXP and you will gear up with much more fun and with the feeling to be even faster than by just grinding CXP.

 

Also do not give in to the believe that your experience of difficult content like PvP or master FPs or EC will improve with your gear. Especially in bolstered areas you will always do fine with 230s. If you are stomped into the ground, you will also be stomped into the ground with better gear.

 

So: grind for experience and knowledge of your class, since they will be useful much longer than the current bis-gear that will maybe already be outdated with 5.2 when they replace it with higher gear which is also going to be replaced in 5.3 and so on!

Edited February 21, 2017 by Bobby_McDonald

[Bobby_McDonald]

Another thing I want to mention which is so important that it deserves its own posts:

 

I see many people grinding CXP for hours that do not use keybinds. I know that some really don't need it because they only play range classes and only in PvE (I think even then it is helpfull because you can never click offensive and defensive abilities without GCD at the same time while with the help of keybinds you can activate abilities much faster and you can activate your Deffs while your Offensives are on GCD.)

 

Others though think it is too much time and effort to go through the long progress of finding your perfect keybinds and then train with it (it is definitely training, it takes time). I admit that I was thinking like that as well once.

 

I promise you, that 4 hours you spend for improving your keybind-skills will increase your dps, hps and survivability much more than 4 hours of CXP-Grind, even if you are lucky and get good gear out of the crates.

 

So many clickers could double their numbers by mastering keybinds while improving their gear only gives a small percentage of improvement.

 

And the further you are from your potential, the less improvement you will gain through better gear!

Edited February 21, 2017 by Bobby_McDonald

[Damask_Rose]

See... this is the fallacy of the OP... thinking that as new level progression is added to the game that the gear (both drops and crafted) will not also be upgraded accordingly.

 

Take the 4.x to 5.x move in level progression. Straight out the gate, blue crafted 220 gear in many cases was on par with much of the better gear from 4.0 (with the exception of set bonus), and 228s even more so. I expect when 6.0 drops, we will see exactly the same move in gear to keep pace with the progression of the game. It will likely come with 230 and 238 crafted gear right out the gate, and 242, 246, 250 as well via crafted from drop recipes and drop exotic materials.

 

The only time I saw crafted gear not keep up with a shift in level progression was back when 4.0 first dropped, and it was about 6 weeks later that we got the actual crafting upgrade to keep pace on that aspect of gearing. And that delay in crafting update in 4.0 might be part of why they made drop gear much easier for 4.0 then in prior expacs.

 

The only real clear advantage of crate drops (or vendor turn-ins) is the set bonus. And even some of those are kind of meh in 5.0. Of course you can grind your face on GC for gear, if that is what a player insists on doing, but it's not playing smarter, it is playing harder... and accepting the frustrations that come with it.

 

That said, probably by end of April, most of the shortcomings of GC will be largely remedied.... which gives us maybe 6 months before 6.0. Of course the players who love to complain will quickly shift to some other thing to rant about... probably once again.. the slow pace of OPs development or the alleged sad state of PvP, yada yada.

 

I think the OP is more concerned about what might happen when tiers 4 & 5 get added before 6.0 resets everything. Will new solo/small group content be tuned for 220/228, or will new solo/small group content get tuned higher since 246/250 gear will have been introduced. Will pvp bolster get raised to accommodate the bigger gear gap? Keep in mind, most casual players can't afford tens of millions to kit out in crafted gear.

[Eli_Porter]

I doubt they'll make the effort to increase the difficulty of all content just because of one new tier.

 

As for PvP? My best guess is that they'll increase bolster by one tier, to 238.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Eli_Porter

[Sargrith]

I haven't tried Master level chapters in 228s. Are they reasonably doable for average skilled payers in that gear tier? If I remember correctly the devs said they were tuned for 240.

 

 

I am working through then now with little better then 228, yes most are doable though a few fights are downright brutal. Classes with long CCs have a strong advantage. Stealth also gives you a big edge. But even a guardian can muscle he ways through, which is what I am using. I can get through the same mission on my shadow in most cases half the time and with far less risk. 2 gold fights are brutal on my guardian, but my shadow stealth CCs one and it isn't near as bad.