Let me get this straight...

[Psychopyro]

Even though I raid I'm quite happy that I've maxxed my Oricon rep since I don't want those missions cluttering up my mission log on characters I'll never take through DF and DP.

 

Yea, but they could have even just flagged it based off of Cheevos... It was a bad design, they could have lessened the pain for alts if they allowed achievements to trigger the last part. New players could still theoretically get into groups for the raids, but forcing them to to see the story is kinda meh...

 

But they could still link it to achievements so that you don't have to do the clicky outside the instance or do them in order.

[Psychopyro]

WHen was the last time Bioware Austin had a roadmap hm?

 

There might be a map in the glove box, but it's probably out of date and only leads to the gas station for munchies.

[Britharen]

I gotta say a lot of comments in this thread are ridiculous and BW can't win for trying. Starting with the OP, many of the commentators are myopically focusing on just their wants and not the communities.

1. Gear wise there really is no change coming? Just additional layers which translate into more grinding?

When has gear ever not been a grind. The coming changes give players certainty, goal, and multiple routes to better gear. In 5.0, you could partially get by with crafting, but if it was a new toon w/o the set bonus you were going to have to grind till the cows come home. As with the rng crates, I like to see a system in effect and players adaptations to it before I pass a final judgement, but the 5.1 changes to gearing are a positive step. However, I am already concerned for pvp-only players as their grind could be lessened.

2. No new content until Dec 2017? That means no new story content.. nothing until almost a year from now?

We just went though a year+ of nothing but story, story, story. Do you care about anyone else? On top of all that you get a quick response from E.Musco, while group PVE players have had little communication over the past few years.

This however, I understand because any mistake or misstatement gets blown up in their faces. If we allowed them to be more human then they could be more communicative. I would prefer statements like, "we are working on ops, but we do not have a timeline for it," or "we just finished an 5 boss operation, but it is so buggy that it is not ready for prime-time, and we want to delay it. These bugs may be unfix-able and the raid may never be released." Then the current silence.

But as I said, op are not all, you need to take a serious look at class balance

Do you know how you get class balance? Have one class.

Please never EVER do this again... Ending a SOLO quest line with a REQUIRED raid was one of the stupidest ideas you guys have ever had.

So you have 3 mission slots(Oricon,Macro,Seeker) taken up on alts you don't play. Just abandon them or get in a last boss lockout for the two ops in bolstered sm. How is this the stupidest idea? Annoying maybe, but one of the worst things ever? Get real.

On Thursday, I expect a listing of the group content you are developing, along with dates when it will be released. Anything else, and all the statements from November/December were lies and we once again know not to trust anything you say.

Mr. Musco and BW,

There are a ton of loyal people that have been through a lot and are looking at this announcement as make or break. Hope you make it.

[Alec_Fortescue]

Eric, it's time for a hood toggle. It's been 4 years since its expected arrival date. ;l

[Psychopyro]

So you have 3 mission slots(Oricon,Macro,Seeker) taken up on alts you don't play. Just abandon them or get in a last boss lockout for the two ops in bolstered sm. How is this the stupidest idea? Annoying maybe, but one of the worst things ever? Get real..

 

First off, deleting the Macro/Seeker quests would delete said item, which would keep players from doing other quests that require them...

 

As for the OPS requirement... Other companies learned (and here too really after Oricon) that gating STORY behind group mechanics was a dumb idea. It's why Yavin has 2 arcs to finish the story (One solo, one Raid). It's stupid because other games had already done this and FAILED at it. It should have been a clue... But sadly EA can't even buy a clue with all that money they have.

 

A group story from start to finish is one thing, a solo quest that ends in a group activity is quite another,...

[wolfyde]

We are still BioWare

 

After that statement, somewhere in Edmonton, they feel a disturbance in the Force...

 

As for content, speaking for myself as a storyfocused soloplayer, this year's approach will financially benefit the company less than last year's.

In 2016 I was subbed from January to September, because of the monthly chapters and the HK bonus chapter.

This year, I've subbed this month, played the story on a number of characters, and frankly see little point in keeping that sub going after this month.

Why is there no solomode for the Uprisings, for example? Or those Flashpoints like Athiss, Red Reaper, etc.?

I loved doing those for the decoration drops, way before the level sync made that impossible.

 

"Endgame" can and should be about more than gearing.

I'll stop complaining now

[Shwarzchild]

First off, deleting the Macro/Seeker quests would delete said item, which would keep players from doing other quests that require them...

 

As for the OPS requirement... Other companies learned (and here too really after Oricon) that gating STORY behind group mechanics was a dumb idea. It's why Yavin has 2 arcs to finish the story (One solo, one Raid). It's stupid because other games had already done this and FAILED at it. It should have been a clue... But sadly EA can't even buy a clue with all that money they have.

 

A group story from start to finish is one thing, a solo quest that ends in a group activity is quite another,...

 

You are going on about a lesson bioware already learned. They changed their structure for shadow of Revan. So they learned.

[Psychopyro]

You are going on about a lesson bioware already learned. They changed their structure for shadow of Revan. So they learned.

 

yes, but they failed to FIX the previous issues... They need to address those issues as well...

 

EDIT: He also made a reference to to this:

 

Different content is not mutually exclusive, in fact it is often in support of each other (Oricon/Dreadmasters, as an example).

This needs clarification... Did they actually really learn from this mistake, or do they plan on making it again...

Edited January 23, 2017 by Psychopyro

[LordNythrax]

Just to set some expectations... We do have a renewed focus on MMO and group content but this in no way means that we will only deliver that content and nothing else. Different content is not mutually exclusive, in fact it is often in support of each other (Oricon/Dreadmasters, as an example).

 

We are still BioWare, story and companions will remain a cornerstone of SWTOR.

 

-eric

 

I just want my ship to not be empty, I'm not even picky about who's on it.

[menofhorror]

The problem with Bioware Austin is that they don't seem to have the budget to do BALANCED content. You know, like in 2.0 days?

 

If you only concentrate on one aspect and neglect the other you are wasting your time.

[FerkWork]

First off, deleting the Macro/Seeker quests would delete said item, which would keep players from doing other quests that require them...

 

As for the OPS requirement... Other companies learned (and here too really after Oricon) that gating STORY behind group mechanics was a dumb idea. It's why Yavin has 2 arcs to finish the story (One solo, one Raid). It's stupid because other games had already done this and FAILED at it. It should have been a clue... But sadly EA can't even buy a clue with all that money they have.

 

A group story from start to finish is one thing, a solo quest that ends in a group activity is quite another,...

 

The main leveling story quests of FFXIV have dungeons and trials (FP and uprisings) attached to them that have no solo mode and are mandatory to progress the storyline. Game has done fine lol.

[Resputin]

Really, let's see what MMO players should expect from an expansion, shall we (and no, this isn't from WoW).

 

Here is one for comparison:

• Level cap increase to 60 (from 50 to accommodate a lot of new content)
  
• Three new character classes
  
• Three new zones that are each three times the size of the original in game zones (i.e, equivalent to nine zones) that are fully explorable (you know, real zones not corriders used once for a story mission)
  
• A new playable race
  
• Flying mounts
  
• 819 new quests (including 3 unique quests for EACH class)
  
• Story continuation from level 50 (not an entirely new story like SWTOR)
  
• 18 new 4-man dungeons
  
• 6 new 8-man raids (level 60)
  
• 3 new 24-man raids (level 60)
  
• Three new abilities for all classes
  
• Three new PvP modes
  
• Mini-games including a casino/carnival games, mount racing and a few others.
  

 

All told it takes a few months to play through the content of that expansion. Just FYI, the base game prior to the expansion had 1,268 quests, 29 dungeons, 6 8-man raids (level 50), 3 24-man raids (level 50) and nine zones (which are 1/3 the size of the expansion zones). In other words, the expansion was equivalent in content to almost 75% of the original game. In fact, people are still playing through the content since the expansion launched and another expansion, similar in scope and size, is launching this fall.

 

What did we get with SWTOR 5.0 "expansion" for new content:

• 9 story chapters
  
• 5 uprisings
  

All told, it is about 6-8 hours to play through the content and 90% of it is really not repeatable. People were pretty much done with this the first week it launched.

 

Finally, the price for the comparison above? $20. The price for a BW expansion is at least a month's sub so $15... look how much more you get for your money with the other.

 

It is pathetic how little content BW has given for wanting people to subscribe over the last two years. Frankly, they are taking players to the cleaners with this game compared to most MMOs on the market.

 

Thats not really true. Say you have 200k in subs for both games. The expansion is 20 bucks on top of 15 sub because people who buy the expansion are going to have a sub. Thats 4 million in a expansion purchase on top of the 3million sub. Of course your going to have a lot more content. Just because they call 5.0 an expansion, I dont consider it. I consider it a 5.0 update. Unless they drop an expansion that you pay for on top of your sub , I wouldnt expect much more than what we been getting the past two years. We are getting game updates not expansions.

[LudhaninRolgge]

"we are working on ops, but we do not have a timeline for it,"

 

They said that august last year IIRC

 

Do you know how you get class balance? Have one class.

 

Hmm, no. What you're referring to is not balance it's just not having classes. Balance is achievable even with 8 classes and each class having specific streangth and weakeness does not make it impossible to be balanced. The key here is that the strength are not too strong and the weakenesses are not too weak. Just a matter of tweaking.

But I'll agree (even if you didn't think of it that way) that trying to achieve PvP AND PvE balance at the same time is impossible. So we badly need to have a tree for PvE and one for PvP.

[Psychopyro]

The main leveling story quests of FFXIV have dungeons and trials (FP and uprisings) attached to them that have no solo mode and are mandatory to progress the storyline. Game has done fine lol.

Honestly if you're dumb enough to play any asian MMO and expect solo play, you're an idiot...

 

The other thing is the game was DESIGNED that way... This game was not. You're comparing apples to oranges...

 

If you want to compare similar games that were story driven, you'd need to look at LOTRO probably more than any other game... LOTRO was all about story, but it was gated behind group content... Which was fine the FIRST time thru. As expansions came, as people hit level cap, etc. it started to kill the game because new people couldn't catch up and people running alts couldn't get them past it...

 

EDIT: Hell LOTRO even went a step further and implemented open tagging for landscape mobs...

Edited January 23, 2017 by Psychopyro

[Trlance]

2 - We definitely never said that. Although it is true that we are refocusing in on group and MMO content, that doesn't mean there is no more story coming.

 

3 - Actually quite the opposite is true. Charles himself has said that his personal goal is to ensure that all original Companions come back in a meaningful way. The question is just when/how.

 

As an added note, I would recommend tuning into our stream this Thursday as we will be talking about some of these exact topics .

 

Wow, thanks for this info .. no one know how long i was looking for that ones. Master Ranos said Nadia is still there somewhere and that why i never lose hope and with this im more happy than ever xD

 

About story for me it can be on dec 2017 .. i dont have problem with that because im not stupid to play all 9 chapters KoTET in one day before expansion lauched and later scream (there in nothing to do now) xD I play one chapter 4-7 days and another i start 2 weeks later (already on chapter 4 which i will start on 3 february). I just love enjoying hype all time.

 

Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post

Although it is true that we are refocusing in on group and MMO content

 

-eric

THANK GOD!!! I hope it's sooner rather than later.

 

what a guy .. they writed that mouth ago or better .. guess 90% peps refused to listen.

 

~ Tsukito, Alliance Commander

Edited January 23, 2017 by Trlance

[YoshiRaphElan]

Just to set some expectations... We do have a renewed focus on MMO and group content but this in no way means that we will only deliver that content and nothing else. Different content is not mutually exclusive, in fact it is often in support of each other (Oricon/Dreadmasters, as an example).

 

We are still BioWare, story and companions will remain a cornerstone of SWTOR.

 

-eric

 

My concern with that is–I'm not an Ops player. I'll do group content happily, like Flashpoints and Uprisings, but Ops is a bit above my level. I was rather upset that I could never finish the Dread Masters storyline because I don't play Ops. My hope is that in the future, content that is both story and group content will be more in line with "Forged Alliances" than Oricon. With Forged Alliances, they were fairly easy flashpoints but a Solo mode was also provided. Can we look forward to that, if story and group content are merged?

[FerkWork]

Honestly if you're dumb enough to play any asian MMO and expect solo play, you're an idiot...

 

The other thing is the game was DESIGNED that way... This game was not. You're comparing apples to oranges...

 

If you want to compare similar games that were story driven, you'd need to look at LOTRO probably more than any other game... LOTRO was all about story, but it was gated behind group content... Which was fine the FIRST time thru. As expansions came, as people hit level cap, etc. it started to kill the game because new people couldn't catch up and people running alts couldn't get them past it...

 

EDIT: Hell LOTRO even went a step further and implemented open tagging for landscape mobs...

 

You can solo play a lot of stuff in FF. Just there are multiplayer parts built into the questlines. With cross servers and quick pops it's pretty enjoyable and source of good xp. I don't care if solo mode options are available for story but some and only swtor I've seen this has a word perception that solo=Story and vice versa and people freak out about MMO content in a game that was an MMO.

[Psychopyro]

You can solo play a lot of stuff in FF. Just there are multiplayer parts built into the questlines. With cross servers and quick pops it's pretty enjoyable and source of good xp. I don't care if solo mode options are available for story but some and only swtor I've seen this has a word perception that solo=Story and vice versa and people freak out about MMO content in a game that was an MMO.

 

Actually this "Story=Solo" has actually been around for a while. I would argue that WoW probably started it by making the story for the most part "casual Friendly"

 

In LOTRO during Alpha and Early Beta the arguments were minor, but had already started.

 

When someone says that their "draw" is going to be a story for everyone, then it needs to be accessible to everyone. Not saying that there cannot be non main story parts that are NOT accessible to everyone, but story needs to be if you sell it that way, which is what they did at launch.

 

And they did a good job. The main story was solo, but the side stories were group content. Flashpoints were side stories that really had no effect on the game if you did not do them. They had added story flavor, but were not part of the main story. OPS were side stories as well like Flashpoints. Which is fine. Oricon is a perfect example of what went wrong. They made the main story of it inaccessible to a section of people by gating the END of the story behind the Raid. CZ was a bit better only being gated behind a H2, but still was a meh. Remember these were the main continuing story stuff we were given, not side stories. Granted in the long view, they could now be seen as side story, but not at the time.

 

The problem with Binocular/Seeker ones is not so much that they are gated (that is a problem), but HOW it is gated. Take the last 2 quests for the Binocular series. Not only do you have to have a group (2 and 4 respectively), but they also must be on the same part as each other. It's a bad design on top of a bad design. Another one is HK, but that has sorted itself out by power creep. Even the seeker one can be done solo.

 

Honestly, I think they assumed that the Binocular/Seeker quests would sort themselves out like HK did. But it's not unprecedented even for them to change the mechanics of these end quest lines. The quests in Black Hole and Sec X have all had their H4 required components removed. It should not be a stretch to have them do the same to the Binocular/Seeker lines...

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Yes you need story for an Ops but it's ancillary. Raids are all about the mechanics. Oricon demonstrated that gating story behind raids is bad. KotFE demonstrated that gating repeatable content (EC and SF) behind story is bad. Neither should gate the other.

 

The minimal story needed for an ops should be thematically related to whatever the current story theme is but shouldn't gate anything. The Shadow of Revan expansion sorta got this right. Ziost (the world boss and boss-in-a-box) not so much although that can be worked around.

 

I found oricon to be beneficial for raiding. By gating it made a lot of people actually give raiding a go and all of a sudden there were tons of people to raid with who may have been too afraid to try them before.

 

I welcome that sort of gating again because what is the alternative? A simple 3.0 story fight in place that people complete then again have nothing to do? I don't see that as being better to getting people into raiding which would ideally have them paying and playing longer than doing it as 3.0 did it.

 

In short - I don't see how gating would make it worse from where we are now. If it were 3.0 style there still wouldn't be enough content to keep people around if they skipped the raid.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Please never EVER do this again... Ending a SOLO quest line with a REQUIRED raid was one of the stupidest ideas you guys have ever had.

 

I have probably 6 characters STUCK on this part of the quest because I don't raid with those specific characters. There are other people in the same condition. You can also see where this is a bad idea with the Marcobinoculars and to a lesser extent (cause some classes can solo it) the Seeker Droid quest.. Also on that note, how soon before you fix these 2 quest lines so people can actually get them finished.

 

Yet you are still here though, many raiders left.

 

I would rather they compromise and make a "tactical operation" for those that find even SM too hard then repeat 3.0 where basically everyone could skip it and finding groups thus became quite tough ( ok to be fair those operations in 3.0 were poorly tuned though and buggy as hell ).

[MeNaCe-NZ]

My concern with that is–I'm not an Ops player. I'll do group content happily, like Flashpoints and Uprisings, but Ops is a bit above my level. I was rather upset that I could never finish the Dread Masters storyline because I don't play Ops. My hope is that in the future, content that is both story and group content will be more in line with "Forged Alliances" than Oricon. With Forged Alliances, they were fairly easy flashpoints but a Solo mode was also provided. Can we look forward to that, if story and group content are merged?

 

Maybe just maybe the game has story content you won't do then? We've had 25 chapters of purely solo story content so if we get a nice side story that is tied to operations then to so be it - this game needs it.

 

You also said "I don't play OPs" which almost implies you aren't even willing to give them a try so I have little sympathy if that's the case.

 

Whilst I wouldn't be opposed to them adding an easier tactical mode for newer 8 person groups ( 16 person was always a breeze for newer players to tag along but not enough players left to form those sort of groups very often ) I really hope they don't do a solo mode again like with 3.0 otherwise you'll get the solo player whinging about a lack of new content when they beat the fight first day and get nothing new for months.

[Psychopyro]

I found oricon to be beneficial for raiding. By gating it made a lot of people actually give raiding a go and all of a sudden there were tons of people to raid with who may have been too afraid to try them before..

 

See and I found it just the opposite. A lot of my guild (admittedly casuals) left because of it. My wife and I ended up moving guild 4 times in less then a year after that because of it. We raid, but we are not hardcore, so raiding guilds were out because of their dumb *** requirements. Eventually we just made a guild of just her and I and pug whatever. But it even eventually caused us to both leave, as we seen it as a focus to force people to raid instead of making raids appealing.

 

Oricon and SOR was trying to force people to raid.

Conquest was about forcing PvP and Crafting.

KOTFE was about forcing solo play.

KOTET was about forcing small group play.

 

Their decisions have always seemed to revolve around forcing people to do the content instead of making the content appealing... While the onus is not all on them, a lot of it lies with them. Though the community of each perspective area of the game needs to help as well... Far to many Raider and PvPers have a bad attitude...

 

The biggest issues I see with people and raiding is Time, Reward, and player attitude.

The biggest issues I see with PvP is player attitude, balance, and reward.

The biggest problem I see with solo play is boring, repetitive, and lonely.

 

Guess what, except for player attitude, BW/EA can control the rest. And even to a point they could control player behavior, they just choose not to when they can *cough* hacking *cough*....

[Psychopyro]

Yet you are still here though, many raiders left..

 

But even that is subjective though. I left about a month after FE and came back about a month before FT, and I may be leaving again.

 

I like to raid. Not hardcore, but I do like it. There is none...

I like PvP. Again not hardcore, but I do like to do it. Balance is still an issue, as well as player behavior (which will probably never change)

I like story. But this is boring as hell...

 

The game is just not engaging. And dead stops in quest lines are just annoying as hell as they usually cannot be finished in short play times.

[OldVengeance]

I'm another person who hated the system the Oricron questline had. I still have never completed them on any of my characters. The Shadows of Revan ending fight was much better.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

See and I found it just the opposite. A lot of my guild (admittedly casuals) left because of it. My wife and I ended up moving guild 4 times in less then a year after that because of it. We raid, but we are not hardcore, so raiding guilds were out because of their dumb *** requirements. Eventually we just made a guild of just her and I and pug whatever. But it even eventually caused us to both leave, as we seen it as a focus to force people to raid instead of making raids appealing.

 

Oricon and SOR was trying to force people to raid.

Conquest was about forcing PvP and Crafting.

KOTFE was about forcing solo play.

KOTET was about forcing small group play.

 

Their decisions have always seemed to revolve around forcing people to do the content instead of making the content appealing... While the onus is not all on them, a lot of it lies with them. Though the community of each perspective area of the game needs to help as well... Far to many Raider and PvPers have a bad attitude...

 

The biggest issues I see with people and raiding is Time, Reward, and player attitude.

The biggest issues I see with PvP is player attitude, balance, and reward.

The biggest problem I see with solo play is boring, repetitive, and lonely.

 

Guess what, except for player attitude, BW/EA can control the rest. And even to a point they could control player behavior, they just choose not to when they can *cough* hacking *cough*....

 

To me it would all be about compromise. I found 3.0 was crap for MMO content compared to say 2.0 due to how hard the raiding was at SM and the fact it let most people skip it and little to no reason to do it otherwise.

 

I see your point about effectively having content cut out from under you hence my thoughts on tactical operations ( easier than SM basically ) or even something akin to the earlier operations where they are part of a storyline but not imperative to it but if you are really curious for that storyline then you do need do them to find out.

 

Basically whatever encourages more people to raid so I have more people to pug with.