What have they done... and more importantly, WHY?

[Vego_Mohenjo]

Well, I've resubscribed again... for a couple of reasons, paramount among them that I have some thoughts I would like to express to Bioware/EA and to the community.

 

I'd been away for a while, finishing my degree, and as I returned to the game, I thought I'd give preferred free play a try. I'd heard it was rather draconian and unfair, and I wanted to see for myself. As a scientist, I like to keep an open mind, and I like to see evidence before I draw a conclusion.

 

There were some things that needed to be unlocked, but they were not that expensive, really, and once they were, the game played more or less as I was used to. The only real GAMEPLAY issues I had were the delay on chat (VERY irritating, but I can understand it, seeing as there are so many gold spammers on the spacedocks), and the lack of gear at higher level. My characters were only occasionally getting gear drops, and when they did the gear was ALL considered "artifacts" meaning artifact access needed to be unlocked. Pretty dirty pool, if you ask me, as you really can't play without gear, making this a REQUIRED unlock, and one of the most expensive.

 

However, the biggest issue is not a gameplay problem. Specifically, it's that free players have NO way to get help with a problem. I was on the World quests on Voss on my Sniper, and after defeating the Gormak King and reporting to Darth Serevin, he told me to go find another Sith Lord called Ghent. However, the quest didn't appear in my log. I went to file a ticket and found I could not. I couldn't even file a BUG report. I thought I'd post on the forums, but found I couldn't post there, either; not even in the help forum.

This is bad customer service on an astonishing level. Free players might well represent the most numerous population in the game, it's unwise to alienate them and ignore them. At the very least, free players should be able to file bug reports and post in the HELP section of the forums.

 

This brings me to the meat of my post, the changes to the classes in 5.0.

 

I returned to the game to find many of my characters had been savaged by the recent changes. Most of my characters had been gravely diminished by the loss of many of their skills, hindering the way I'd been playing them.

 

My Sage used to get into melee all the time, and now he has lost his ONLY melee skill.

My Trooper can no longer use his cone blast to destroy groups of foes that swarm him, and he can't smack a foe in the face with his cannon.

My Sniper can no longer stab his foes with his techblade, though he can still stun them, and he can no longer shoot foes while moving, having lost his ONLY mobile blast.

My Knight and Warrior can no longer switch forms, depending on what foes they're facing. There were times when it was helpful to do a bit more damage. Now that choice has been taken away.

Worst of all was my Gunslinger. I had wanted him to play like Han Solo, so I went with only the one gun, even though it meant reducing my capabilities. I still had Overload Shot, and I used it as my primary attack. Of course, that was taken away. They also took away Pistol Whip and Dirty Kick, skills that gave the class great personality. In short, they took away ALL the skills I used most.

 

Now, I would understand if there was a NEED for these changes, but I see NO BENEFIT from this at all. Characters have had versatility and flexibility taken away with NO GAIN in return. I no longer have the choice to play the character the way I want to. I played my Sage as if he was a melee character. That was MY CHOICE. These changes FORCE players into only one playstyle. Frankly, it reminds me of the Smedley days over at Galaxies, and we know how well THAT went.

 

The real loss here falls on the Sorceror/Sage classes and on the Smuggler classes.

 

The Sorceror/Sage are JEDI. Ask yourself, what is the coolest thing about the Jedi? It's not the Force. We didn't go to the movies hoping to see them using the Force. We wanted to see the LIGHTSABERS. Even YODA and the EMPEROR got to duel with their sabers, and they're clearly Consular/Inquisitor types. Yet here, our sabers are almost entirely cosmetic. This is NOT how it should be.

More than this, they seem to have had their ABILITY taken away. They always had minimal defenses, and this was compensated for by their having either great healing or great damage output. Now they have minimal defense, minimal healing and minimal damage.

 

The Smuggler classes have had problems from the beginning, frankly. They're obviously based on Han Solo, yet they don't allow players to emulate him at all (and arguably never did).

 

Solo uses only one pistol, and the Gunslinger FORCES the player to use two. The Scoundrel might seem the better choice as a result, but Solo prefers a straight fight to all the sneaking around, the Scoundrel is designed around Sneak. More, the Scoundrel now has NO significant ranged abilities. Even Charged Blast has been taken away. Solo wasn't known for mixing it up in melee, he was a shooter (meaning the Gunslinger might be the better choice for Solo, but again... two guns). Finally, the Scoundrel goes through every fight giggling constantly like a damn fool. Again, not appropriate for Solo (or really any character... behaviour like this should be up to the PLAYER, and NEVER be automatic).

 

So, the Smuggler class is entirely unable to reflect the character it's based on.

 

(The Bounty Hunter has a similar issue in that they can't use Blaster Rifles... EVERY Bounty Hunter we ever saw in the films, with the exception ONLY of Jango Fett, had a Rifle. A small but oddly significant issue.)

 

Again, and importantly, the real problem I have with all these changes is not that they've hampered my gameplay; it's that there was NO REASON FOR IT, and NOTHING GAINED by it.

Way back when I was a beta tester, I said at the end of testing that I was very impressed. They gave the game a SOLID foundation. All they needed to do was BUILD on that foundation and NOT FIX THINGS THAT AREN'T BROKEN. Seriously, this kind of thing can have disastrous consequences. I've seen sweeping changes like this kill games completely. I know, I know; DOOM. I'd agree, if I hadn't seen it happen several times before now. 35 years of games and gaming has taught me a thing or two.

 

 

Devs, you still have a phenomenal game. What this game does well, it does VERY well. The story system is unlike anything offered anywhere else. The acting is first rate, and the stories are fun and engaging (in fact, I'd love to have the ability to reset storylines and do them again). You guys need to stop changing things and focus on ADDING to the game. There have been many suggestions over the years.

 

 

The greatest failing of the game is a lack of DEPTH. Apart from questing (combat), there's NOTHING else to do. We don't do our own crafting, and Strongholds (housing) are so expensive that they're essentially beyond most players. What's needed are some downtime activities. Examples are things like Crafting (for US to do), Housing (accessible, more immersive), Pazaak, Sabaac, Swoop Racing, Gladiatorial Competitions (and perhaps gambling on the outcome of such competitions), Music, and so on. These are things to ADD to the game, and are what I really expected the developers to work on after beta.

 

Another failing is the one that's been created and exacerbated recently. There's a disappointing lack of flexibility and customizability in our characters. It began some years ago, when they simplified the trait trees. It was made worse with 5.0 when they eliminated skills that allowed characters to do a bit of both melee and ranged combat. I'd like to see them restore some of the skills we lost, or make them alternatives we have the CHOICE to use or not. For instance, give the Commando the choice of using Boltstorm OR Full Auto, don't FORCE him to use Boltstorm. Perhaps give the Sniper the CHOICE to use Snipe or Overload Shot. Better by far to let the PLAYER control the character. Let the Gunslinger CHOOSE to use one pistol or two. Let the Bounty Hunter CHOOSE to use a Pistol or a Rifle. I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.

 

 

TL:DR

 

Free players need to be free to post in the Help forum, there's no way for the to get help now.

 

The 5.0 changes greatly harm gameplay and diminish characters for NO BENEFIT. There was NO REASON to make these changes, and they should be recinded. Players should have a CHOICE of whether to use the skills or not (eg. Full Auto or Boltstorm, player's choice).

 

Devs need to STOP fixing things that aren't broken. Focus on ADDING things to the game, like Pazaak, Sabaac, Swoop Racing, Music, and proper Housing and Crafting. Downtime activities add depth and extend the life of the game by giving players fun things to do that don't require development time (once they're in place).

Edited January 18, 2017 by Vego_Mohenjo

[dr_mike]

I'm skipping all that since I'm at work but....

 

Free players need to be free to post in the Help forum, there's no way for the to get help now.

 

A quick google would have shown you the answer to that. Much like a f2p player can do if they have a question.

 

Having said that, f2p players have other options as well. The EA forum, reddit, guild websites, the swtor fan websites like dulfy and swtpr-spy, etc. They are also able to email swtor support as well if they have an account issue. May not get a response back of course but hey even us subs are having problems getting answers out of them.

 

There's also general chat where folks can ask questions. I know I spend a lot of my time answering questions raised in there.

Edited January 22, 2017 by dr_mike

[Vego_Mohenjo]

Well, I'll give you an example.

 

While playing free, I was doing quests on Voss. I went through the World storyline up to the point where you defeat the King of the bad guys. You go back to Darth whatsisname to report and he says to go talk to some mad Sith somewhere.

 

However, the mission didn't update. It didn't give me any new objective to go talk to the mad Sith. I found the mad Sith and HE didn't have a mission for me either. Thus, my story was stopped and there was no way for me to continue.

 

In this situation, there's no way for other players to help me, and there was no way to comment on the forums, contact a GM or even file a BUG report.

 

Now, the thread you suggest offers the possibility of searching out some obscure site elsewhere and trying to get help THERE. However, that site wanted me to sign up for yet another membership I had no interest in, and would never have known about but for your link. I feel sure MOST newer players would have no idea that site even exists, and might be just as disinclined as I was to sign up for yet another membership.

 

I stand by my assertions.

 

Free players need to have access to the help forums, and should be given the ability to file bug reports.

[MixWeidner]

Actually there was reason for the mentioned class changes. You always needed to check if all those guys with stances used the right one. Because it hurts the group if, say, Vengeance juggernaut uses Soresu form. They would pull aggro from tank and do reduced damage. And so on for every stance. Most of pug GF flashpoint runs I had to say some person to switch their stance, because it hurts entire group.

As to using those gone abilities...well, they didn't have place in rotation. Same reasons here: using mentioned abilities hurts entire group. If I met sage who plays as a melee, I'd would hit "kick from the group", because any companion will benefit us more.

Of course, sadly they didn't replace auto attacks, so you can still encounter some roleplaying operative, who uses their rifle auto attack and doesn't use knives/utilize stealth just because they think roleplaying in FPs is a good idea.

[Vego_Mohenjo]

No one should be telling anyone else how to play their character.

 

As for hurting groups, most things can be soloed. Group finder only seems to put together groups of all DPS, so a Sage using a melee attack once in a while, or a Sniper stabbing a foe that gets too close is not going to significantly affect anything.

 

The issue is that, while many didn't use the deleted abilities, there were SOME that did. Those who didn't use them haven't lost anything, but those who WERE using it get the shaft.

 

Juggernauts using Soresu in one of the DPS specs was USEFUL for those who were soloing and found themselves in need of a bit more defense (and the reverse is true, Shii-Cho in the Tank spec).

 

In other words, I don't accept this as a valid reason to make these changes.

[MixWeidner]

No one should be telling anyone else how to play their character.

 

As for hurting groups, most things can be soloed. Group finder only seems to put together groups of all DPS, so a Sage using a melee attack once in a while, or a Sniper stabbing a foe that gets too close is not going to significantly affect anything.

 

The issue is that, while many didn't use the deleted abilities, there were SOME that did. Those who didn't use them haven't lost anything, but those who WERE using it get the shaft.

 

Juggernauts using Soresu in one of the DPS specs was USEFUL for those who were soloing and found themselves in need of a bit more defense (and the reverse is true, Shii-Cho in the Tank spec).

 

In other words, I don't accept this as a valid reason to make these changes.

 

I agree with you that in solo play no one should tell you how to play, because this is your own experience and companion will carry you in any case. In group content though, I think it's necessary to communicate with other people and, if they don't know some particular boss fight or warzone, to tell them "how to play" in this particular instance.

Of course, it didn't hurt if sniper or sage used melee abilities several times in the fight, though honestly there are always better options: why to use Shiv if you can just cast Snipe and buff your Followthrough? Again, I'm speaking about group content only. Though some of the melee abilities were useful with right utilities in PvP, their effects have been moved to other abilities in 5.0, some we didn't lose anything (i.e. Rocket Punch root was moved to Missile Blast, Sniv's speed increase moved to Countermeasures). I'm not talking about real nerfs to melee classes in 5.0 which occurred just because someone thought they don't need to have casted abilities (i.e. Ravage and Flamethrower). Their instant replacements are just awful damage wise.

Concerning DPS Juggernauts with Soresu form in solo content, yeah, whatever, it's solo content.

[Vego_Mohenjo]

What I'm getting at is that it seems to me that any benefit from these changes is extraordinarily small, while the damage done is significantly greater.

 

Now, I'm not talking about playability (though, I couldn't stomach the Powertech at all, and I suspect the same would be true of the Vanguard, Operative and Scoundrel, all of whom have ranged weapons but no range), I'm talking about presentation, at least much of the time.

 

Taking away Dual Strike from a Sage makes him less like the Jedi we see in the films, ALL of whom fight with lightsabers.

Taking away Pistol Whip and Dirty Kick diminish the personality of the Gunslinger.

 

They're smallish changes, that don't impact the overall performance of the class all that much, but DO impact the PRESENTATION of the class; it's personality.

 

So, since the changes provide little or no benefit, I see no reason for them to have been implemented.

[MixWeidner]

What I'm getting at is that it seems to me that any benefit from these changes is extraordinarily small, while the damage done is significantly greater.

 

Now, I'm not talking about playability (though, I couldn't stomach the Powertech at all, and I suspect the same would be true of the Vanguard, Operative and Scoundrel, all of whom have ranged weapons but no range), I'm talking about presentation, at least much of the time.

 

Taking away Dual Strike from a Sage makes him less like the Jedi we see in the films, ALL of whom fight with lightsabers.

Taking away Pistol Whip and Dirty Kick diminish the personality of the Gunslinger.

 

They're smallish changes, that don't impact the overall performance of the class all that much, but DO impact the PRESENTATION of the class; it's personality.

 

So, since the changes provide little or no benefit, I see no reason for them to have been implemented.

 

I get your point.

[Chimeree]

Well, I've resubscribed again... for a couple of reasons, paramount among them that I have some thoughts I would like to express to Bioware/EA and to the community.

 

I'd been away for a while, finishing my degree, and as I returned to the game, I thought I'd give preferred free play a try. I'd heard it was rather draconian and unfair, and I wanted to see for myself. As a scientist, I like to keep an open mind, and I like to see evidence before I draw a conclusion.

 

There were some things that needed to be unlocked, but they were not that expensive, really, and once they were, the game played more or less as I was used to. The only real GAMEPLAY issues I had were the delay on chat (VERY irritating, but I can understand it, seeing as there are so many gold spammers on the spacedocks), and the lack of gear at higher level. My characters were only occasionally getting gear drops, and when they did the gear was ALL considered "artifacts" meaning artifact access needed to be unlocked. Pretty dirty pool, if you ask me, as you really can't play without gear, making this a REQUIRED unlock, and one of the most expensive.

 

However, the biggest issue is not a gameplay problem. Specifically, it's that free players have NO way to get help with a problem. I was on the World quests on Voss on my Sniper, and after defeating the Gormak King and reporting to Darth Serevin, he told me to go find another Sith Lord called Ghent. However, the quest didn't appear in my log. I went to file a ticket and found I could not. I couldn't even file a BUG report. I thought I'd post on the forums, but found I couldn't post there, either; not even in the help forum.

This is bad customer service on an astonishing level. Free players might well represent the most numerous population in the game, it's unwise to alienate them and ignore them. At the very least, free players should be able to file bug reports and post in the HELP section of the forums.

 

This brings me to the meat of my post, the changes to the classes in 5.0.

 

I returned to the game to find many of my characters had been savaged by the recent changes. Most of my characters had been gravely diminished by the loss of many of their skills, hindering the way I'd been playing them.

 

My Sage used to get into melee all the time, and now he has lost his ONLY melee skill.

My Trooper can no longer use his cone blast to destroy groups of foes that swarm him, and he can't smack a foe in the face with his cannon.

My Sniper can no longer stab his foes with his techblade, though he can still stun them, and he can no longer shoot foes while moving, having lost his ONLY mobile blast.

My Knight and Warrior can no longer switch forms, depending on what foes they're facing. There were times when it was helpful to do a bit more damage. Now that choice has been taken away.

Worst of all was my Gunslinger. I had wanted him to play like Han Solo, so I went with only the one gun, even though it meant reducing my capabilities. I still had Overload Shot, and I used it as my primary attack. Of course, that was taken away. They also took away Pistol Whip and Dirty Kick, skills that gave the class great personality. In short, they took away ALL the skills I used most.

 

Now, I would understand if there was a NEED for these changes, but I see NO BENEFIT from this at all. Characters have had versatility and flexibility taken away with NO GAIN in return. I no longer have the choice to play the character the way I want to. I played my Sage as if he was a melee character. That was MY CHOICE. These changes FORCE players into only one playstyle. Frankly, it reminds me of the Smedley days over at Galaxies, and we know how well THAT went.

 

The real loss here falls on the Sorceror/Sage classes and on the Smuggler classes.

 

The Sorceror/Sage are JEDI. Ask yourself, what is the coolest thing about the Jedi? It's not the Force. We didn't go to the movies hoping to see them using the Force. We wanted to see the LIGHTSABERS. Even YODA and the EMPEROR got to duel with their sabers, and they're clearly Consular/Inquisitor types. Yet here, our sabers are almost entirely cosmetic. This is NOT how it should be.

More than this, they seem to have had their ABILITY taken away. They always had minimal defenses, and this was compensated for by their having either great healing or great damage output. Now they have minimal defense, minimal healing and minimal damage.

 

The Smuggler classes have had problems from the beginning, frankly. They're obviously based on Han Solo, yet they don't allow players to emulate him at all (and arguably never did).

 

Solo uses only one pistol, and the Gunslinger FORCES the player to use two. The Scoundrel might seem the better choice as a result, but Solo prefers a straight fight to all the sneaking around, the Scoundrel is designed around Sneak. More, the Scoundrel now has NO significant ranged abilities. Even Charged Blast has been taken away. Solo wasn't known for mixing it up in melee, he was a shooter (meaning the Gunslinger might be the better choice for Solo, but again... two guns). Finally, the Scoundrel goes through every fight giggling constantly like a damn fool. Again, not appropriate for Solo (or really any character... behaviour like this should be up to the PLAYER, and NEVER be automatic).

 

So, the Smuggler class is entirely unable to reflect the character it's based on.

 

(The Bounty Hunter has a similar issue in that they can't use Blaster Rifles... EVERY Bounty Hunter we ever saw in the films, with the exception ONLY of Jango Fett, had a Rifle. A small but oddly significant issue.)

 

Again, and importantly, the real problem I have with all these changes is not that they've hampered my gameplay; it's that there was NO REASON FOR IT, and NOTHING GAINED by it.

Way back when I was a beta tester, I said at the end of testing that I was very impressed. They gave the game a SOLID foundation. All they needed to do was BUILD on that foundation and NOT FIX THINGS THAT AREN'T BROKEN. Seriously, this kind of thing can have disastrous consequences. I've seen sweeping changes like this kill games completely. I know, I know; DOOM. I'd agree, if I hadn't seen it happen several times before now. 35 years of games and gaming has taught me a thing or two.

 

 

Devs, you still have a phenomenal game. What this game does well, it does VERY well. The story system is unlike anything offered anywhere else. The acting is first rate, and the stories are fun and engaging (in fact, I'd love to have the ability to reset storylines and do them again). You guys need to stop changing things and focus on ADDING to the game. There have been many suggestions over the years.

 

 

The greatest failing of the game is a lack of DEPTH. Apart from questing (combat), there's NOTHING else to do. We don't do our own crafting, and Strongholds (housing) are so expensive that they're essentially beyond most players. What's needed are some downtime activities. Examples are things like Crafting (for US to do), Housing (accessible, more immersive), Pazaak, Sabaac, Swoop Racing, Gladiatorial Competitions (and perhaps gambling on the outcome of such competitions), Music, and so on. These are things to ADD to the game, and are what I really expected the developers to work on after beta.

 

Another failing is the one that's been created and exacerbated recently. There's a disappointing lack of flexibility and customizability in our characters. It began some years ago, when they simplified the trait trees. It was made worse with 5.0 when they eliminated skills that allowed characters to do a bit of both melee and ranged combat. I'd like to see them restore some of the skills we lost, or make them alternatives we have the CHOICE to use or not. For instance, give the Commando the choice of using Boltstorm OR Full Auto, don't FORCE him to use Boltstorm. Perhaps give the Sniper the CHOICE to use Snipe or Overload Shot. Better by far to let the PLAYER control the character. Let the Gunslinger CHOOSE to use one pistol or two. Let the Bounty Hunter CHOOSE to use a Pistol or a Rifle. I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.

 

 

TL:DR

 

Free players need to be free to post in the Help forum, there's no way for the to get help now.

 

The 5.0 changes greatly harm gameplay and diminish characters for NO BENEFIT. There was NO REASON to make these changes, and they should be recinded. Players should have a CHOICE of whether to use the skills or not (eg. Full Auto or Boltstorm, player's choice).

 

Devs need to STOP fixing things that aren't broken. Focus on ADDING things to the game, like Pazaak, Sabaac, Swoop Racing, Music, and proper Housing and Crafting. Downtime activities add depth and extend the life of the game by giving players fun things to do that don't require development time (once they're in place).

 

I completely agree with you. No reason for removing abilities and no, no argument like jedi guardian was using bad form, it was his fail and i miss option to switch stances, also i miss option to use melee abilities on ranged class, like for example on commando when last enemy came to me on melee range and i bashed him with my cannon.

 

Also i dont get it why you have to be a subscriber to post on forums.

[InquisitorVandir]

Dang, those are some laser-accurate points.

 

To jump on the bandwagon, what the *unholy hell* happened to Sorcs in general? I'm a lightning Sorc and I have a grand total of ONE MOVE, my basic attack, that utilizes my lightsaber.

 

One move.

 

The ****, BW?

[Parkour-JP]

Yeah man i gotta say i logged back into the game today to give it a go, and I am a Level 65 sith assassin and before i had quite a nice set of moves, never used all of em but i had a CHOICE on how to be.

 

Now i have next to no moves for variety, all my electricity moves are gone, so i have very little range if i choose too, which i could look around i guess since it would make more sense for a sorcerer so i was like okay.

 

Then i noticed i don't have my Phase walk anymore, where i could make a point to teleport back and forth which seems PERFECT for the assassin and for some reason, that is gone, and then i started to realise how much has been removed from the game like even stances and charges for people to be able to develop some kind of unique playstyle.

 

Very disappointing.

Edited January 30, 2017 by Parkour-JP

[evXetwvi]

Yes agre im returning player too, melee sorc nerf *** BW? Now i have to delete my sorc. Edited January 31, 2017 by evXetwvi