Make ranked PVP include 8v8s again

[Qwurdilu]

nearly everyone posting here can see the benefits of a setup like this.

 

No. You only read what you want to read. Caprica and me already gave very good reasons why it wouldnt work out. I really wonder why those who seem to never have played 8vs8 ranked dont listen to those who actually have. We dont make up the reasons, we experienced them.

 

Also, solo ranked arena has already damaged this community very, very bad. Y would this be different in 8vs8?

Teamspeak sync quing would be even worse in 8vs8.

 

The last this game needs is more solo content, we need more incentives to que up as teams.

 

 

However, if you truly want to realize your vision you need to make small steps, rome hasnt been build in one day either. For 8vs8 ranked you NEED proper matchmaking, and that includes a forced trinity (tank, healer, dd). So lets start to promote that for every ranked game. Based on that we may work towards a much better class balance, and then maybe, we may think about 8vs8 ranked again.

Edited January 4, 2017 by Qwurdilu

[SlightlySychotic]

No. You only read what you want to read. Caprica and me already gave very good reasons why it wouldnt work out. I really wonder why those who seem to never have played 8vs8 ranked dont listen to those who actually have. We dont make up the reasons, we experienced them.

 

Also, solo ranked arena has already damaged this community very, very bad. Y would this be different in 8vs8?

Teamspeak sync quing would be even worse in 8vs8.

 

The last this game needs is more solo content, we need more incentives to que up as teams.

 

 

However, if you truly want to realize your vision you need to make small steps, rome hasnt been build in one day either. For 8vs8 ranked you NEED proper matchmaking, and that includes a forced trinity (tank, healer, dd). So lets start to promote that for every ranked game. Based on that we may work towards a much better class balance, and then maybe, we may think about 8vs8 ranked again.

 

And I'll say the exact same thing I always say: the present system does not work. It has never worked, it will never work, and people hate it. Even if you're 100% right and then some, ranked 8v8 can only be "as broken" as arenas. That's what makes these excuses patently absurd. At the end of the day, I think most people would rather have ranked dead with 8v8s than ranked dead with arenas.

[Qwurdilu]

And I'll say the exact same thing I always say: the present system does not work. It has never worked, it will never work, and people hate it. Even if you're 100% right and then some, ranked 8v8 can only be "as broken" as arenas. That's what makes these excuses patently absurd. At the end of the day, I think most people would rather have ranked dead with 8v8s than ranked dead with arenas.

 

Thats not a constructive solution but a pessimistic bankruptcy declaration. Id rather have a optimistic brainstorm on how we can actually improve the game

[Lhancelot]

And I'll say the exact same thing I always say: the present system does not work. It has never worked, it will never work, and people hate it. Even if you're 100% right and then some, ranked 8v8 can only be "as broken" as arenas. That's what makes these excuses patently absurd. At the end of the day, I think most people would rather have ranked dead with 8v8s than ranked dead with arenas.

 

I have said this for a long time. I said this before I took a long break, I have come back and view it no differently.

 

I honestly see no harming the present meta of ranked if they simply added one more option, which is to add an 8v8 ranked queue.

 

How does it hurt anything? It's like adding salt to a turd, honestly can it hurt the flavor?

[Qwurdilu]

I have said this for a long time. I said this before I took a long break, I have come back and view it no differently.

 

I honestly see no harming the present meta of ranked if they simply added one more option, which is to add an 8v8 ranked queue.

 

How does it hurt anything? It's like adding salt to a turd, honestly can it hurt the flavor?

 

"Theres one floor of a building on fire, so we might just lit up another one instead of trying to extinguish the fire"

Edited January 4, 2017 by Qwurdilu

[TrixxieTriss]

No. You only read what you want to read. Caprica and me already gave very good reasons why it wouldnt work out. I really wonder why those who seem to never have played 8vs8 ranked dont listen to those who actually have. We dont make up the reasons, we experienced them.

 

Also, solo ranked arena has already damaged this community very, very bad. Y would this be different in 8vs8?

Teamspeak sync quing would be even worse in 8vs8.

 

The last this game needs is more solo content, we need more incentives to que up as teams.

 

However, if you truly want to realize your vision you need to make small steps, rome hasnt been build in one day either. For 8vs8 ranked you NEED proper matchmaking, and that includes a forced trinity (tank, healer, dd). So lets start to promote that for every ranked game. Based on that we may work towards a much better class balance, and then maybe, we may think about 8vs8 ranked again.

 

I used to play ranked 8s from launch, so I do have a bit of a clue. My opinion is no less valid because I disagree with you. I'm not saying you don't have some good points and you make a compelling argument to back them up, I just don't agree with them.

 

We obviously have opposing views, so let's just leave it at that so we don't get into a slinging match of he said, she said insults.

Edited January 5, 2017 by TrixxieTriss

[TrixxieTriss]

I have said this for a long time. I said this before I took a long break, I have come back and view it no differently.

 

I honestly see no harming the present meta of ranked if they simply added one more option, which is to add an 8v8 ranked queue.

 

How does it hurt anything? It's like adding salt to a turd, honestly can it hurt the flavor?

 

The only thing I would change is not making it "team" ranked, but make it a solo queue or a queue set up like regs is. Then we could get some variety turds 💩 to put our salt on

[Kaedusz]

Just what we need, invent more ways to split queues and make queues longer.

 

I say merge all servers, remove ranked alltogether and make 1 happy short queue 24/7. Can't tell you how frustrated i am during days in which the only time i can play is early mornings and all queues for everything is dead.

 

If not playing vs bads is the objective, play with them. Don't premade. Fixing other people's mistakes and making sure a bunch of bads don't lose should balance things out.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Kaedusz

[SlightlySychotic]

"Theres one floor of a building on fire, so we might just lit up another one instead of trying to extinguish the fire"

 

I don't believe "This isn't working and we should try something else" is an inherently pessimistic statement. And I'm certain that the person shooting down an idea because it is flawed doesn't get to proclaim themselves an optimist.

[Qwurdilu]

I don't believe "This isn't working and we should try something else" is an inherently pessimistic statement. And I'm certain that the person shooting down an idea because it is flawed doesn't get to proclaim themselves an optimist.

 

i have worded several realistic ideas on "what else" can be done. However 8vs8 isnt something else in the first place. We already had it, and it didnt work. Its like you guys completely forget about all the flaws, and see 8vs8 as the magical thing that can end any problems. No it wont.

 

You guys seem like those people who forget how bad the relationship with your ex was and wish him/her back, and when you finally get it, youll realize it wasnt that good.

 

Believing 8vs8 will make anything better is beyond naive. There isnt a single guild in the entire world that could provide a team that consistently ques. So what we need is a matchmaking that allows to que in smaller groups, like in other games. That needs a matchmaking that enforces a trinity in every ranked game (tank/healer/dd).

 

So why dont we start to ask for a forced trinity in every ranked game, before we start to talk about 8vs8? Why cant we make small steps? Why am i beeing labeld negative, when i just argue why something wont work?

 

8vs8 isnt the tool that will lead to the goal. 8vs8 is the goal. What we need is tools and mechanics that improve pvp to make 8vs8 possible in the first place. If you believe 8vs8 would work wonders right now, its just that. A firm belief.

Edited January 6, 2017 by Qwurdilu

[stoopicus]

I would play ranked if there were 8v8 objective maps. The only reason I don't play ranked at all (well, besides still being a relative noob to SWTOR PvP) is that I hate the 4x4 arenas. Literally the only good thing about them for me is that they are over fast. I don't feel accomplishment when I win in one and losing in one is equally a "well, glad that's over" feeling instead of feeling like a real loss. They just seem inherently way too random to be interesting.

[Qwurdilu]

I don't feel accomplishment when I win in one and losing in one is equally a "well, glad that's over" feeling.

 

in 8vs8 youll only make half the impact, statistically, but enduring a sure loss will take considerably longer. I fail to see what makes you believe youd be more motivated for 8vs8 ranked?

 

If its the assumption that 8vs8 is more about tapping than about killing youre wrong. As every experienced 8vs8 player can tell you, 8vs8 is nothing but a deathmatch stalemate with some gcd used to interrupt someone. If youre bad in 4vs4 because you lack the skillset to be good on offense or defense, youll be very likely very bad in 8vs8, too.

 

For example voidstar. If two equally skilled teams face each other, its very unlikely the first door will ever be tapped, and that changes the gamemode to most killing blows count. How is that different from arenas? If you think your fun and joiy will magically translate from regs to ranked youre beeing delusive. 8vs8 ranked is a whole other story than regs. Like completly different.

[stoopicus]

I believe you; I'm simply stating why ranked interests me not at all at the moment, and why I would try it if it supported 8v8 objective based maps. I am not saying I would be successful; I am simply stating facts. Arenas are not fun IMO and therefore I see no need nor desire to play ranked at the moment.

[Qwurdilu]

I believe you; I'm simply stating why ranked interests me not at all at the moment, and why I would try it if it supported 8v8 objective based maps. I am not saying I would be successful; I am simply stating facts. Arenas are not fun IMO and therefore I see no need nor desire to play ranked at the moment.

 

A lot of people are like you. And back when 8s were a thing we saw a lot of people trying it, and then, after they realized they were not competetive they returned to regs. Of course, its basic psychology. Winning is fun, losing is not. If you lose more than you win, its unlikely you like the gamemode, and it doesnt matter if its 4s or 8s. If youre going to lose 90% of 8s game, youre not very likely to stick to it, no matter how much fun objectives are.

 

And thats the very essence of the problem this game has. No matter if its 8s or 4s, this games Matchmaking mechanic never featured a the most important feature: An incentive to keep queing for those who lost more games than they won.

 

I play this game since release, and 8s and later 4s all had the same problem: The teams translated into a food chain, and the teams at the bottom stopped queing. A chain reaction, and after weeks or month, theres only little left.

With every patch we see some new people or old ones coming back. In the first days of 5.0 teamranked popped like hell. Then it declined a lot after the "food" stopped queing.

 

So what this game really needs is an answer to the foodchain problem, and that can only be done with tweaking how matchmaking works.

 

For as long as this doesnt change, everything about 8s reviving pvp will be nothing but a beautiful vision that will never work out.

 

If bioware would drop 8vs8 ranked today, with no further changes to how matchmaking works, there would be some teams queing, if we are very optimistic its even 15 per server. But i guarantue that after the foodchain would do its work, more and more teams would stop queing until very little is left. Its happened in 8s. it happened in 4s.

 

So please lets be honest, and not just simplistic translate the fun we have in regs into ranked. It just doesnt work like that.

[stoopicus]

And thats the very essence of the problem this game has. No matter if its 8s or 4s, this games Matchmaking mechanic never featured a the most important feature: An incentive to keep queing for those who lost more games than they won.

 

That makes sense. In regs at least it feels like if the matchmaker forms a decent team balance for you and worse for them, you'll probably win; if the opposite, you'll probably lose; the rest comes down to player skill, which at the moment (with so many PvE players queueing for CXP, even in regs) seems *entirely* random.

 

Ranked would theoretically remove that last bit of random but who knows.

 

I honestly couldn't tell you if I have lost in more arenas than I have won in; I can pull my weight in them now and yet still lost yesterday, whereas I remember winning in the very first one I was in, when I had no clue what was up.

 

Which is the problem. In regs at least, they are quick things that just seem really, really random. Occasionally your team will communicate and focus well, other times they won't and the other guys will, and then, yeah, skill makes a difference. But more often it seems like your team has a mix of something like you plus three mercs versus them having a terrible mix, and then "hey we won, doesn't that feel awesome?" Well, not really.

[ALaggyGrunt]

Both teams dogpiled an objective in Odessen Proving Grounds and spammed AoEs today.

 

It dropped my framerate into the single digits, and I noticed it got to down to 1.4 before coming back up to about 4.

 

If I had dreams of touching ranked at all, that would kill it right there.

[stoopicus]

Both teams dogpiled an objective in Odessen Proving Grounds and spammed AoEs today.

 

It dropped my framerate into the single digits, and I noticed it got to down to 1.4 before coming back up to about 4.

 

If I had dreams of touching ranked at all, that would kill it right there.

 

I haven't needed to do this in SWTOR yet but the first rule of PvP in most MMOs is to turn the graphics settings down to the minimum level you can stand.

[Qwurdilu]

Ranked would theoretically remove that last bit of random but who knows..

 

The system in place only works with hundreds of people beeing in que.

Its actually like this: If you que it searches player with a similar rating and puts them in your team.

 

So if youre the best healer on the server, youre very likely to get the best tank, and best dps in your team, because if you have the highest rating, it will search others with a similar rating.

 

So basically, the best players have a better chance to get good players in their team, and very bad players, have a higher chance to get bad ones.

If you assume hundres of players this is cool. So if you have a 2000 rating youll get others in your team with around 2000 and youre likely to play against a team around 2000.

 

 

But there arent hundreds of players. Lets say theres only 8. So the healer with 2k rating will still get the dps with the higher rating in his team, and the healer with 1k rating will most likely get the dps with the rating around 1000. So no matter how good you actually are, if youre above a certain point of rating, youre most likely to get players with good rating and therefore win.

I experienced this myself in season 4. On a small server i played as healer up to the highest rating. I then transferred to tofn and i always got the best tanks and best dds on my team. It was that absurd that in one game i even did nothing and stayed in stealth, and my 3 hatred assasins (they were much wow back then) soloed the other team. That is how matchmaking currently works.

 

Its broken, but its even more broken because how human interaction works. Now that we know that with 8 the good players are favored, its different once there 10. The first round everything will be described above, but now there are two players waiting for an invite. Lets assume theyre 1k rating aswell. Now that theyre waiting so long for an invite, the ratingrange in which it searches players increases. So when the first game is finished, most likely both of them will get an invite, and now very likely one of the bad players will be put in the high rating team.

We all know what happens next: "die ******, stop queing, you suck, delete the game" etc.

 

While of course players should not insult like that, the problem is not the players, but the system that encourage players to be selfish and be toxic to others because every noob that gets insulted so bad he stops queing, isnt likely to be in your team, right?

 

So what we really need, is to change the whole system, we need a system that actually encourage teamplay and encourage to team up instead of beeing toxic and flaming people away.

 

imho this can only be achieved, if solo ranked gets replaced by a groupfinder for teamranked.

[SlightlySychotic]

Honestly, I'll say it again: we might as well scrap ranked altogether and just offer reward tokens for victories. If it's between between nothing and the next desperate idea to make arenas work, I'd rather have nothing. I think most people would.

[Ucrag]

Absolutely wholehearted agreement from me mate.

I've always thought the 4 on 4s are a waist of time...and so 'Un-Jedi'

It's like a grudge match where the only important thing is to see how quick u can kill the other team.

Where's the skill, the puzzle ??

Half the time with no warning they throw u in there to fight your own side so u end up killing someone who was healing u in the match before.

But then I also think the only thing a Jedi would take out of a Hutball match is the ********s of the Hutt who organised it.

A JEDI CARES NOT FOR THE BALLS OF HUTTS

.....Except maybe as part of an alien anatomy exhibit used to teach padawans where to kick them.

[Talon_strikes]

/signed