RNG is perfect for SWTOR and I'll explain why.

[PlasmaJohn]

Bolster doesn't help you in every content, and new players aren't aware of it. The grind isn't the focus, the rate of upgrades is.

I've not done rated PvP or HM or NiM Ops so I can't claim any knowledge there. You're bolstered to the 230 level for everything else which is "good enough". I'll throw in a probably exception for Unranked PvP since that should have been bolstered to the Tier 3 ilvl.

 

For the content Tier 1 gear is intended for bolster makes chasing those pieces for anything other than set bonus pointless.

I suggest you give 5.1 the benefit of the doubt because it addresses these exact concerns.

LOL. The problem with 5.x -is- the insane meta grind. (RNG on top of lengthy CXP grind) All 5.1 does is guarantee one measly piece for an eight man run. The problem is not that folks are missing a piece here and there, people are missing half or more of their set pieces. 5.1 barely moves the needle.

 

Also, reaching T2/T3 is a light at the end of the tunnel.

Great, coffee all over the monitor. Reaching the next tier only means I have yet another grind to deal with that's much worse than the last one.

 

SW:TOR's ills can be summed up by paraphrasing James Carville: It's the content, stupid. That can also be used to pinpoint exactly what's wrong with 5.x: It's the grind, stupid.

[Vaerah]

I think we can agree to disagree about the average players' motivations, since neither of us have metrics to back our arguments.

 

I would urge you to give 5.1 a try, since I truly believe it will address the issues.

 

I PvP 95% of the time. Being unable to focus on what I need ASAP, not being prized for my victories, forcing me to play only 1 class to even pretend to grind levels...

 

... I LOATHE all of this. As I posted some days ago, it's sucking off my will to play this game.

 

I have been stupider than most, as I have made a 3 months subscripion so I am stuck playing (or wasting it).

Stupidly, having last played in 2014, I expected SWTOR expansions were still proper "expansions" and not a poor man's excuse of a mini-DLC.

[curulz]

It was much more difficult to get 216/220 gear in 4.7 than it is to get 230/234 gear in 5.0. The freedom of choice on what gear you wanted from vendors/gtn came with a price, and that price was slower progression.

 

And if you wanted 216+ set gear (which was useful outside of ops, for example HM FP's) you still had to do ops.

 

Set bonus gear I wouldn't agree, but its relative. I ran with raid teams, so getting 216/220 set gear was much easier for me. From your perspective, I can see that though. For filler pieces like mods/enhancements, the crafting changes in 5.0 have been great. I don't think that is a product of RNG though, just the schematics being BOL and dropping on multiple bosses.

[psandak]

I was firmly entrenched in the "wait and see" category on this subject, and while it does have benefits those benefits are outweighed by its drawbacks.

 

Benefits:

• Every player regardless of playstyle now has the ability to acquire the best gear available. If one wants to play solo they can eventually get 242 gear, or if one wants to do nothing but group content (ops or PvP) they can also eventually get 242 gear
  
• More players ARE participating in a wider range of content. There are more players in PvP and GSF and queuing for FPs and doing heroics
  

 

Drawbacks

• The "casual" player will NEVER reach tier 2 let alone tier 3 for a chance at the best gear available. Simply put they do not play enough to acquire sufficient CXP. So the group they wished to include is in fact excluded.
  
• The "hardcore" player is incredibly frustrated by the RNG factor. They put in the time, they want stats upgrades so they can feel a sense of accomplishment. The system as is does not instill accomplishment. So the group that was included is now excluded
  
• The system encourages "grinding:" finding the most efficient method of CXP acquisition. Whether that is KP trash, or Fractured uprising, or PvP, or GSF, EVERYONE is looking for the fastest way to get CXP. And if one gets nerfed we simply move on to the next.
  
• And the biggest issue for raiders is that operations (as in running operations as intended; not just killing trash over and over) have NEVER been the most efficient.
  
• Lastly, at end game, the intrinsic value of playing this game (the idea of playing the game for sake of the game) is all but gone. With no new large group PvE content and the new small group content (Uprisings) becoming repetitive and boring rather quickly, the only reason to play at the level cap is the extrinsic rewards, but they are gated behind RNG meaning that it is likely a player will never see a full set (the primary goal is to get a full set of gear not bits and pieces) of those extrinsic rewards.
  

 

I think the 5.1 changes will help with some of the drawbacks, but it will not fix the 800lb gorilla: no new large group content. So long as raiders are stuck doing the same content, we will not be happy.

[DarthSpuds]

4.0 was meant to resolve the shortcomings of 3.0. GC is meant to resolve the shortcomings of 4.0. You do not go backwards. You go forward.

 

So why go back to a gearing mechanic (RNG) they already failed at so bad it contributed to them losing 1.5 Million Subscribers?

 

Your arguments are circular, illogical, based on no evidence whatsoever, and are by and large intellectually vacuous.

 

All The Best

[LudhaninRolgge]

Every player regardless of playstyle now has the ability to acquire the best gear available. If one wants to play solo they can eventually get 242 gear, or if one wants to do nothing but group content (ops or PvP) they can also eventually get 242 gear.

 

But as it is now the system doesn't reward skill. Which was a good thing for the skill of the average player. You wanted a full 198 set back in 3.0 ? You had to be a good player with a good group. If you were not good enough and really wanted that gear, you'd read guides, pratice your rotation, etc. Now you just have to do whatever and that's hurting the skill of the average PuG. Sure most casual won't ever see tier 3, let alone tier 2, but that also means that very bad player can potentially have BiS gear if they try long enough. There's no sense of accomplishement in this gearing system which is what should drive the system.

 

Now, i can see people coming saying I'm an elitist. That not the case, but think about that : is your boss gonna pay you as much as him just because you show up and do whatever ? Of course he won't. If you want a payraise, you'll have to earn it and that should be the same for gear.

[Khevar]

BioWare is trying to rectify that issue by making it more accessible but also implementing a time sink.

The current incarnation of GC is not designed to make gear more accessible. It is only designed as a time sink.

 

Let's take some examples:

 

The casual player that has zero interest in participating in any group PvE or PvP content, will have such a slow CXP rate that may never make it to Tier 2 gear (before 6.0 comes out with a full reset of the gear treadmill). Meaning that they will only have access to a handful of 230 pieces, which are only slightly better than crafted 228 purple gear (something easily accessible).

 

This casual player was able to buy basic crafted gear before (think 156 rating during 2.0, or 186 rating during 3.0, or 208 rating during 4.0). Crafting / purchasing purple 228 gear today will supply such a player with gear that would last them all the way to GC Rank 90. Unless they were lucky enough to obtain a set bonus piece (more on that below).

 

Next, we have a player that "dips their foot" into the occasional warzone, or the occasional flashpoint. They will obtain CXP faster than the purely solo player, but still quite slow. They may make it to Tier 2 in a few months? Prior to 5.0, such a player would be obtaining Tier 2 gear LONG before that.

 

Lastly, we have the player that spends a lot of time engaging in PvP and/or group PvE. They will obtain CXP the fastest. BUT, a player of this sort may take 60-80 hours before they move into Tier 2 gear. This is significantly slower than 1.x, 2.x, 3.x or 4.x.

 

Now, every single of these groups have access to the GTN, and they can purchase the higher level gear, bypassing the GC grind. But this has been available since patch 1.2 added the ability to Reverse Engineer mods for schematics. This isn't a new addition with 5.0. So, no change.

 

Now, speaking to set bonuses. It could be argued that the super casual player finally has access to them. But anyone that's been around for a while will remember that the set bonuses used to be tied to the shells, and Tionese gear was made available to the player in 1.x upon reaching level 50.

 

Not to mention that there's over 100 possible pieces of gear one could obtain from a GC crate, and only 7 of them have set bonuses. It is quite likely that the casual player will never see a full set bonus, and many of them may never even make it to the 2-piece set bonus.

 

So.

 

No.

 

GC may appear to make gear more accessible, but it really doesn't. It's main purpose is a time sink. I believe that it is intended that the activity of obtaining of gear itself to become the most significant "new content" of 5.0 out side of the KotET chapters.

Edited January 3, 2017 by Khevar

[benmas]

Question.

did you like RNG in vanilla and did you want it to stay?

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Here's my story then, as a new player.

 

I was playing my alt in 204 PvP set gear in an SM op. We reached the final boss and ran into issues on the enrage timer. I was singled out for having "pvp gear" and slowing down the team. I probably wasn't the cause, and I know this is just one person, but some of the group went along with it. "yeah, you should get better gear". Guess what, that's what I'm here for. I'm not on a server that runs ops constantly, and I'm in a casual RP guild, but I do care about gear.

 

So yeah, I would like to first go into ops with decent gear, so situations like that wouldn't happen. 5.0 lets me get high tier gear (sets aside) with far greater ease, and 5.1 will let me get the set gear I need as well.

 

Operations are bolstered and more than enough to easily complete all operations in story mode. If a group is failing story mode it's because of mechanics or in case of enrage players not knowing their rotations etc. correctly be putting out enough DPS. Gear isn't the issue anymore and thus needing gear to do SM is moot.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Gear is part of the game to me just like RP is part of the game. I enjoy both. I want to progress my character's gear, and I could only do it through operations in 4.0. That means that I was forced into content I often didn't have time to do, because waiting for groups to form took a while and sometimes we didn't even finish. Sometimes I didn't feel like doing Operations either. In 5.1 it'll still be the most efficient method, but it won't be the only one.

 

I assume you are talking set bonus here right? Because with comms ( crystals whatever ) you could buy top end non set bonus gear. Did the set bonus really mean that much to you? If you are now talking hardmode operations for even better gear then people have no place in those until they at the least know what they are doing and are geared.

 

 

It was to illustrate that gear being gated behind operations wasn't a fun experience for me as a new player. I want to progress my character's gear, but Operations aren't the only content I want to run whether it be due to time constraints, reliance on teammates (who can be stupid, as you said), or straight interest in other content (I enjoy GSF/PvP/FP's/Up's).

 

Funny story about this thread and every thread that hates GC. MOST people don't want to take that away from you, we want you to have it. What we don't want is to be forced to run content we don't want to run for gear just as you had the same issue in 4.0

 

I'm sure if you step back and think on that you will agree that this system is not a solution for everyone as it hurts more than it helps.

 

That of course is before even touching on the insane amount of time required to put in to get top end gear now where as before I could kick into HM/NiM and start slowly progressing immediately on the top end gear I wanted.

 

If I just do the content I like to do on my schedule I will never get to rank 180. I am a casual player that enjoy the more difficult content, this system screws me over. Those saying the system helps casuals either don't entirely understand what the term casual means or don't know what they are talking about ( i.e. Aowin ).

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Also, you could then ask, why RNG? They could have given set gear for data crystals right?

 

RNG gearing serves these purposes:

 

1. It hooks the new player, giving him a deluge of usable loot from crates when he first starts getting them.

 

2. As time goes on, the usable loot becomes more scarce, encouraging the player to play on alts (thus diversifying his playing experience) to get usable crates again. And in SWTOR's case they can choose to focus on their main to reach the next tier as well.

 

3. The better your gear the tougher it becomes to complete it. This keeps the character from reaching perfect gear, encouraging the player to still revisit it from time to time.

 

This is the standard gearing process for Action RPG's, and it works well.

 

when you are scrapping 95% of the items you get from crates it doesn't hook you at all, it actually makes you give up ( for me anyway ).

 

Maybe had they designed it a bit better with more drops in the loot table of usable items ( not all gear ) and more tiers spread into the 300 levels so we upped a tier every 40 or so levels it wouldn't be so bad but as it is now I utterly pity anyone getting hooked on this system considering how many other fun activities their are out their to do in video game land.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

It was much more difficult to get 216/220 gear in 4.7 than it is to get 230/234 gear in 5.0. The freedom of choice on what gear you wanted from vendors/gtn came with a price, and that price was slower progression.

 

And if you wanted 216+ set gear (which was useful outside of ops, for example HM FP's) you still had to do ops.

 

Using radiant crystals to buy 220 pieces was more difficult that grinding 90 hours before I even qualify to start earning 234 pieces ( and then up against RNG ).

 

You think that this system is somehow faster? What? Seriously please justify that because you're not really making any sense.

[Khevar]

It was much more difficult to get 216/220 gear in 4.7 than it is to get 230/234 gear in 5.0.

It's a bit odd the way you worded this, but I take it you mean to say:

 

1. It was more difficult to get 216 gear in 4.7 than 230 gear in 5.0, and

2. It was more difficult to get 220 gear in 4.7 than 234 gear in 5.0

 

Is that correct?

 

If this is what you meant, then you're doing an incorrect comparison.

 

208 gear in 4.7 is comparable to 228 gear in 5.0

216 gear in 4.7 is comparable to 234 gear in 5.0

220 gear in 4.7 is comparable to 240 gear in 5.0

224 gear in 4.7 is comparable to 242 gear in 5.0

 

The current 230 gear doesn't have an exact comparison in 4.7. The closest would be 212, though there weren't very many items with that rating during 4.x.

Edited January 3, 2017 by Khevar

[mikebevo]

Gear has always been broken in TOR. They just continue break it in different way. RNG is perhaps the worse, although I remember having to do HM EC once with all Consulars just so our main healer could finally get a saber.

[Hichitsuki-hime]

Yes, people like you were present more at the beginning of the thread, but the past few pages it's really just been constant back and forth of Aowin vs. doomsayers.

well lol, until we see how they apply 5.1 we can;t really ay much lol. either that or their sub already ran out and they can't come and post lol

[NakodaTheJedi]

It is perfect but at the same time this game isn't going to work if these people don't listen to their customers. I'm one of those people that believe the customer is always right.

[NakodaTheJedi]

I mean these people at bioware don't care about anything but our money in the 5 years of swtor have you ever seen a commercial for it on TV or youtube? I see it for other games but they do nothing to bring in new players. They expect US to do it for them with this stupid little refer a friend program? And why? SO THEY DON'T HAVE TO PAY SOMEONE TO DO IT.

[Rabenschwinge]

It's a bit odd the way you worded this, but I take it you mean to say:

 

1. It was more difficult to get 216 gear in 4.7 than 230 gear in 5.0, and

2. It was more difficult to get 220 gear in 4.7 than 234 gear in 5.0

 

Is that correct?

 

If this is what you meant, then you're doing an incorrect comparison.

 

208 gear in 4.7 is comparable to 228 gear in 5.0

216 gear in 4.7 is comparable to 234 gear in 5.0

220 gear in 4.7 is comparable to 240 gear in 5.0

224 gear in 4.7 is comparable to 242 gear in 5.0

 

The current 230 gear doesn't have an exact comparison in 4.7. The closest would be 212, though there weren't very many items with that rating during 4.x.

 

I don't think so, not if you include the 228 augments which are around now. In a mix of 228s and 230s I perform better in a hard mode flashpoint (i.e. master flashpoint since 5.0) than I did before in a mix of 216s and 220s. With the five new levels the strength of the mobs increased as well, but not to the same degree.

 

I now have a crit chance of roughly 40.5% instead of 34.5% (since 4.0 the crit bonus damage is implied in the crit chance, which is why I don't pay much attention to it, but it must have went up accordiingly), my primary weapon damage went up by about 500 points (from roughly 2500 - 3000 to 3000 - 3500), my cooldown bonus went up from 2.2% to 6.5% (alacrity was 200 something and is 600 something now) and there were a few percent increase in damage reduction due to armor, even though I don't remember the value before that, I think it was 24% before the change and is 27% now.

 

That is with the four class buffs and nothing else. On top of that consumables are a lot more efficient now, more than five new levels (i.e. an increase of 7.7% in the level range) would imply.

 

Of course, if you want to map equipment 1 to 1 from old ratings to new ratings, your relation is certainly meaningful. However a character geared in 228s (with 228 augments) has a much easier time in a hard mode flashpoint than a character geared in 216s (with 208 augments) had before the change. Instead of asking what equipment sets there are I find it more meaningful to ask what one can do with the given equipment and it is wrong to say that rating 230 equipment would leave a character impaired. In that sense, it is in fact easier to gear up than it was before.

Edited January 4, 2017 by Rabenschwinge

[Threjyan]

just bring back PvP and PvE vendors, while mantaining cxp boxes for casuals.

 

thx

[Khevar]

However a character geared in 228s (with 228 augments) has a much easier time in a hard mode flashpoint than a character geared in 216s (with 208 augments) had before the change.

You're suggesting that when Bioware rescaled HM FPs to level 70, the didn't buff the enemies as much as the players. Enough that would make a noticeable difference.

 

This is going to be hard for you to say with any certainly, as HM FPs are more about mechanics and knowing your class than the gear your wearing. It's difficult to make up for a lack of skill without vast overgearing.

 

I've run a couple dozen HM FPs (as a healer) since 5.0, and while most have gone well, I've run into several where we hit the enrage timer. Battle of Rishii last boss. Kyramla in Blood Hunt. A couple of others. This is all about lack of skill. If I keep everyone alive the entire fight, and they couldn't kill the boss ...

 

I believe that if you find HM FPs easier in 228 gear than you used to in 216 gear, it is more likely because you personally have become more skilled as a player, rather than Bioware purposefully tuning the HM FPs for a lower tier of gear.

[Rabenschwinge]

You're suggesting that when Bioware rescaled HM FPs to level 70, the didn't buff the enemies as much as the players. Enough that would make a noticeable difference.

 

This is going to be hard for you to say with any certainly, as HM FPs are more about mechanics and knowing your class than the gear your wearing. It's difficult to make up for a lack of skill without vast overgearing.

 

I've run a couple dozen HM FPs (as a healer) since 5.0, and while most have gone well, I've run into several where we hit the enrage timer. Battle of Rishii last boss. Kyramla in Blood Hunt. A couple of others. This is all about lack of skill. If I keep everyone alive the entire fight, and they couldn't kill the boss ...

 

I believe that if you find HM FPs easier in 228 gear than you used to in 216 gear, it is more likely because you personally have become more skilled as a player, rather than Bioware purposefully tuning the HM FPs for a lower tier of gear.

 

The harder flashpoints, such as Lost Island, Kaon Under Siege and Blood Hunt do have a requirement for baseline damage a damage dealer needs to meet before the boss enrages, for baseline damage a tank needs to eat and an a amount of health a healer needs to restore, even if you do have your rotation correct and you do not take unnecessary damage. If you don't have the gear you will simply not be able to deal as much damage as it takes in time, no matter how much time you spend to train it on the operations dummy.

 

The difference to operations is that in operations the mechanics are far more complex, not that the baseline damage was different. Also the fights are longer and if only one of the 16 players looses focus for but one second, it may very well be a wipe. An operation runner doesn't need equipment beyond 230 for Hard Mode any more than someone who runs Lost Island in Hard Mode. The sole purpose of better gear is to serve as a status symbol. It is never required and it is always about lack of skill if 230 it doesn't suffice.

Edited January 4, 2017 by Rabenschwinge

[Tsetso]

You're suggesting that when Bioware rescaled HM FPs to level 70, the didn't buff the enemies as much as the players. Enough that would make a noticeable difference.

 

This is going to be hard for you to say with any certainly, as HM FPs are more about mechanics and knowing your class than the gear your wearing. It's difficult to make up for a lack of skill without vast overgearing.

 

I've run a couple dozen HM FPs (as a healer) since 5.0, and while most have gone well, I've run into several where we hit the enrage timer. Battle of Rishii last boss. Kyramla in Blood Hunt. A couple of others. This is all about lack of skill. If I keep everyone alive the entire fight, and they couldn't kill the boss ...

 

I believe that if you find HM FPs easier in 228 gear than you used to in 216 gear, it is more likely because you personally have become more skilled as a player, rather than Bioware purposefully tuning the HM FPs for a lower tier of gear.

 

They\ve added enrage to BoR last boss? That's unexpected. Probably the guy that soloed him irritated them.

[Rabenschwinge]

They\ve added enrage to BoR last boss? That's unexpected. Probably the guy that soloed him irritated them.

 

He has a soft enrage. He does not suddenly enrage and wipe the group, but the area effects he smashes onto the board become ever bigger until they eventually cover the whole platform. Thus the fight becomes harder the longer it takes and eventually there is no way to prevent a wipe, because there is nowhere to run to.

 

However, he is per se not a particularly hard boss, which is why I don't count Battle of Rishi amongst the hardest flashpoints. The main difficulty is that the floor markers are misleading. The damage kicks in about half a second after the marker disappears, and that delay confuses people at times. The larger area effects over the platform (as opposed to the targeted ones) do also last a while and the area remains deadly for a few seconds. Other than that: The adds that spawn are random, it's not always the same groups in the same order and they are not all equally difficult. I find the most annoying groups are the mixed ones of both normal and strong enemies, unless you manage to push them over the edge in time.

 

It is indeed a good example for a boss where most failures I've seen where due to mechanics.

Edited January 4, 2017 by Rabenschwinge

[gabigool]

I perform better in a hard mode flashpoint (i.e. master flashpoint since 5.0) than I did before in a mix of 216s and 220s. With the five new levels the strength of the mobs increased as well, but not to the same degree.

 

It's worth pointing out that relative tuning of new gear vs. new boss hp has exactly zero to do with validating this gearing system - which is how this tangent arose.

[Rabenschwinge]

It's worth pointing out that relative tuning of new gear vs. new boss hp has exactly zero to do with validating this gearing system - which is how this tangent arose.

 

The question is whether or not 230 gear suffices. I'd say that does have something to do with the question at hand. The game remains playable with 230, everything that is beyond that is an optional bonus which is nice to have but not required.

 

If you ask me whether I like the system to be random, the answer is "no". If you ask me whether I think that operations should be more rewarding than doing flashpoints or even uprisings the answer is "yes". Operations are the hardest stuff there is in PVE and thus should be most rewarding.

 

What I think the system improves is that you cannot gear that ridiculously fast any more, but it does take time and skill beyond being carried through by an superior operations group, and that I am not forced to engage in operations if I want a chance to eventually improve my gear.

Edited January 4, 2017 by Rabenschwinge