5.0 Bolster INFO so far for t1 (DPS/HEALS)

[stoopicus]

Just when I thought I was starting to understand bolster, I learn that I really do not understand bolster. You'll want to read this if you play a skank tank:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9206464

[Ottoattack]

Sorry if this was discussed earlier in the thread (I did not read every post and was not in the OP). Do 228 mods lethal mods (45) provide better stats in WZs compared to the 230 lethal A mods (46A)? They do in PvE.

[Ld-Siris]

First Up, I'm just returning and looking for info myself. With that said I found that in 4.0 power overtook mastery. Case in point 13 power and 1 critical augment provided better yield then 14 mastery augments. However, with that said. Mastery only gives a critical chance and does not affect the critical multiplier (obiviously it gets added back to damage with the >100% crit). Personally i prefer, the power due to the fact of all the DCDs in this game; however, there is still the fact that critical chance works against shielding and there seems to be a god awful amount of tanks now....

 

ANyways just my 2 cents.

[kissingaiur]

First Up, I'm just returning and looking for info myself. With that said I found that in 4.0 power overtook mastery. Case in point 13 power and 1 critical augment provided better yield then 14 mastery augments. However, with that said. Mastery only gives a critical chance and does not affect the critical multiplier (obiviously it gets added back to damage with the >100% crit). Personally i prefer, the power due to the fact of all the DCDs in this game; however, there is still the fact that critical chance works against shielding and there seems to be a god awful amount of tanks now....

 

ANyways just my 2 cents.

 

Mastery > Power for DPS. This is confirmed by Bants calucations. There is no arguing it. Apparently this was a true statement even before 5.0 according to a PvE poster. One of the reasons which was given for why Mastery is better than Power was because of the Sorc/Sage companion bonus buff which gives you 1% Mastery. Meaning every time you put a point of Mastery in, the value of the point is slightly higher.

 

In the end, if you have personal reasons for using one verse another, no one can stop you. Just understand the all facts before making a final decision .

Edited January 17, 2017 by kissingaiur

[kissingaiur]

Sorry if this was discussed earlier in the thread (I did not read every post and was not in the OP). Do 228 mods lethal mods (45) provide better stats in WZs compared to the 230 lethal A mods (46A)? They do in PvE.

 

228 low endurance mod are better than the 230 high endurance mods. 228 high endurance are for sure worse though.

[timtastic]

Mastery > Power for DPS. This is confirmed by Bants calucations. There is no arguing it. Apparently this was a true statement even before 5.0 according to a PvE poster. One of the reasons which was given for why Mastery is better than Power was because of the Sorc/Sage companion bonus buff which gives you 1% Mastery. Meaning every time you put a point of Mastery in, the value of the point is slightly higher.

 

In the end, if you have personal reasons for using one verse another, no one can stop you. Just understand the all facts before making a final decision .

 

What is that 1% mastery companion buff? Can't seem to find it anywhere

[Ld-Siris]

What is that 1% mastery companion buff? Can't seem to find it anywhere

 

It's in you legacy tab. Same pls e where you find you character perks, family tree, and achievements.

[jordhanus]

I have stocked up on crit augments (not thinking too hard about it, really), and given the high crit ratios I'm scoring on my deception sin, I am very happy with that choice.

 

The question being: you said Mastery trumps Power, and in Kre'as Sin/Shadow guide he pleads for Mastery augments, but given all the crits and crit boosters I have on my deception, why shouldn't I stack as much crit as I can? In bolster this now goes to almost 50%/76% (chance/multiplier), which is as far as I can tell a strong burst increase since 50+% of my hits are crits (70-80%+ for the heavy hitting abilities).

[kissingaiur]

I have stocked up on crit augments (not thinking too hard about it, really), and given the high crit ratios I'm scoring on my deception sin, I am very happy with that choice.

 

The question being: you said Mastery trumps Power, and in Kre'as Sin/Shadow guide he pleads for Mastery augments, but given all the crits and crit boosters I have on my deception, why shouldn't I stack as much crit as I can? In bolster this now goes to almost 50%/76% (chance/multiplier), which is as far as I can tell a strong burst increase since 50+% of my hits are crits (70-80%+ for the heavy hitting abilities).

 

That was one of the questions Doc asked Bant about a month ago. This was in regards to how we as PvPers with the new bolster have more of a stat pool over PvErs (his calculations on gearing only go so high) so what should DPS stack if we are over roughly 1900~ crit rating. The question was, as a DPS when you hit Crits DR cap what should you go for the highest DPS returns, Bant said Mastery not Crit.

 

Why? I'm not a math genius but here is the theories:

 

This might have to do with the DPS decline in Crits DR that you might just get a better DPS return with a flat Mastery amount.

 

One of the interesting things I found out when Bant helped me create a number plot on Mastery vs. Crit vs. Alacrity is that, as your Mastery value increases, the effectiveness of Crit/Alacrity increase as well. This was in regards to a discussing on healing so I'm not 100% it can be translated in the effectiveness of Crit to mastery for DPS but it might. So I thought i would throw it in here. This means maybe when Crit hits it's DR there is just better overall benefits to stacking Mastery because it gives you Crit/bonus damage as well as makes your Crit effectiveness better.

 

Another theory, returning back to the discussion about ths Sorc/sage class bonus buff (1% mastery), because of this you get more out of 1 point of Mastery than would out of 1 point of Crit with its DR (after you get a comfortable amount of course). This passive buff increases the value of every point of Mastery which makes it good to stack for DPS.

 

You can take this information as you will.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Edited: Remember this post is ONLY in regards to DPS not Healers! As healers we get more out of Crit/Alacrity than Mastery or Power. DPS/HPS scaling is different with stats if you are a Healer vs. DPS. Don't get confused!

 

Edited: I was merging companion buffs and class buffs in my head. Opps! fixed.

Edited January 18, 2017 by kissingaiur

[Flusssaeure]

@ kissingaiur

 

And because of the big number of replies I already assumed that no one was lisening.

 

However it is the class buff not the companion buff. That is the one that last one hour if you use your class ability that gives the buff to you and all group members. For Consular the ability is called Force Valor and for Inquisitors Mark of Power. Both give a 5% Mastery Buff and Internal and Elemental Damage Reduction of 10%.

 

The important thing here is that you can unlock them in your legacy by finishing act 2 of the class story of that class. While the other classes do not gain the ability they get the buff when they use their own class ability. (For Agents Coordination, for Bountyhunters Hunter's Boon, for Knighty Force Valor, for Smuggler Lucky Shots, for Trooper Fortification and for Warriors Unnatural Might.)

 

So you can make sure that your charakters have all class buffs available at all time. These are:

Agent / Smuggler: Critcal Rating +5% (you should consider that one when looking if you already in Diminishing Returns range)

Bountyhunter / Trooper: Endurance +5%

Consular / Inquisitor: Mastery +5%, Internal and Elemental Damage Reduction 10%

Knight / Warrior: Melee, range, force and tech bonus damage and healing +5%

 

While you can get access to all buffs this way you can't stack them so unlocking Consular and Inquisitor buff gains no additional stats increases over unlocking only one of them. While I have read elsewhere that it was not intended to get imperial buff on republic chars or the other way around everyone I know that everyone that has these buffs unlocked once gets imperial and republic chars buffed. If that was changed during the games life time or the writers misunderstood that you can't stack the buff of the imperial and republic classes that one I can't say for sure.

 

On a similar note I indeed play PVE but also PVP, and GSF..., that way I noticed during 4.X that PVP and PVE Guides often didn't matched how the stats work. Digging deeper into it most important PVE guides where based around Bants calculation while most PVP Guides where on the we already did that during 3.X page. After 4.0 changed how the stats worked you can make you own conclussion what was closer to what happened in the game.

 

And nowhere was the clash bigger than in "stack as much Power as you can get" which was already false because of the crit redesign and that Mastery could also be better if you have the buff didn't helped. But guess how many:

"But the guide says stack as much Power as possible."

"Because he uses the 3.X stat system which is outdated since 4.0."

"But all PVP guides say stack as much Power as possible"

discussions I had during 4.X in my guild...

 

@ jordhanus

The problem with stacking to much crit is that crit has diminishing returns. That means while in the beginning, only as example not actual numbers, you get 1% crit change and 10 points of crit bonus damage for every 100 points of crit as soon as you hit the diminishing return cap you would need 105 points of crit to get 1% crit change and 10 points of crit bonus damage, if you still add more crit than you need 110 points of crit to get 1% crit chance and 10 points of crit bonus damage and so one. The more crit you take the more crit you need to see a further crit chance and bonus damage increase. While stacking crit itself is not the problem as soon as you hit the cap you have to ask yourself wouldn't it make sense to buff another stat instead of wasting slots to "dead weight crit" that itself gives you no stat increase but that you need that the next point of crit gives you a stat increase. While I had to look up the exact cap it lies between 40 and 45 % crit chance. With 50% crit chance you definitly are deep in diminishing returns range.

[yellow_]

@ kissingaiur

 

And because of the big number of replies I already assumed that no one was lisening.

 

However it is the class buff not the companion buff. That is the one that last one hour if you use your class ability that gives the buff to you and all group members. For Consular the ability is called Force Valor and for Inquisitors Mark of Power. Both give a 5% Mastery Buff and Internal and Elemental Damage Reduction of 10%.

 

The important thing here is that you can unlock them in your legacy by finishing act 2 of the class story of that class. While the other classes do not gain the ability they get the buff when they use their own class ability. (For Agents Coordination, for Bountyhunters Hunter's Boon, for Knighty Force Valor, for Smuggler Lucky Shots, for Trooper Fortification and for Warriors Unnatural Might.)

 

So you can make sure that your charakters have all class buffs available at all time. These are:

Agent / Smuggler: Critcal Rating +5% (you should consider that one when looking if you already in Diminishing Returns range)

Bountyhunter / Trooper: Endurance +5%

Consular / Inquisitor: Mastery +5%, Internal and Elemental Damage Reduction 10%

Knight / Warrior: Melee, range, force and tech bonus damage and healing +5%

 

While you can get access to all buffs this way you can't stack them so unlocking Consular and Inquisitor buff gains no additional stats increases over unlocking only one of them. While I have read elsewhere that it was not intended to get imperial buff on republic chars or the other way around everyone I know that everyone that has these buffs unlocked once gets imperial and republic chars buffed. If that was changed during the games life time or the writers misunderstood that you can't stack the buff of the imperial and republic classes that one I can't say for sure.

 

How dumb do you think everyone in this thread is? Everyone knows about the class buffs -- you just typed up a novella of information that anyone who cares enough to read this thread is already aware of in response to an obvious typo.

 

The only new information is this cute factoid that it happens to be the class buff that puts mastery over the top. Considering that just about every even remotely serious PVPer has all 4 buffs that bit of information is little more than trivia.

 

P.S. I don't understand the obvious bone you have to pick with the common belief that Power was better than Mastery among PVPers in 4.0. You're not wrong but that information isn't being peddled in this thread and it isn't 4.0 anymore. Maybe make a separate thread about it where it's actually relevant?

 

The question being: you said Mastery trumps Power, and in Kre'as Sin/Shadow guide he pleads for Mastery augments, but given all the crits and crit boosters I have on my deception, why shouldn't I stack as much crit as I can? In bolster this now goes to almost 50%/76% (chance/multiplier), which is as far as I can tell a strong burst increase since 50+% of my hits are crits (70-80%+ for the heavy hitting abilities).

There's nothing magic about being at or above a 50% crit chance (it may seem significant because we're humans and not robots) -- this line of thinking is a trap. The bottom line is that when you start getting up into that 1800 crit range (this is a rough estimate) additional points in crit will, on average, output less DPS than additional mastery will.

Edited January 18, 2017 by yellow_

[jordhanus]

Yeah well it's the "on average" part that is of interest of course. For a 5.0 deception sin with few non-crit hits, I can imagine the DR curves run slightly differently than "on average". In addition, what is really of interest to me is maximizing burst, not dps as such.

 

Guess I'll need to dig into the stats threads myself

[stoopicus]

Yeah well it's the "on average" part that is of interest of course. For a 5.0 deception sin with few non-crit hits, I can imagine the DR curves run slightly differently than "on average". In addition, what is really of interest to me is maximizing burst, not dps as such.

 

Guess I'll need to dig into the stats threads myself

 

Sorry if this is obvious and I am misunderstanding you (I'm still waking up here) but actually, yellow_ is right there. It's a simple fact that due to the asymptotic nature of the crit chance curve increase per-point flattening out, versus the linear improvement you get from Mastery that there is a point where putting more in to crit will have statistical diminishing returns. It's just how statistics works - the payoff from putting one stat point into crit, at some total crit value, will be lower than putting that same point into mastery.

 

The only question is where that number is.

Edited January 19, 2017 by stoopicus

[jordhanus]

Sorry if this is obvious and I am misunderstanding you (I'm still waking up here) but actually, yellow_ is right there. It's a simple fact that due to the asymptotic nature of the crit chance curve increase per-point flattening out, versus the linear improvement you get from Mastery that there is a point where putting more in to crit will have statistical diminishing returns. It's just how statistics works - the payoff from putting one stat point into crit, at some total crit value, will be lower than putting that same point into mastery.

 

The only question is where that number is.

 

Are you sure Mastery has no DR? I find that hard to believe.

 

And the point being, or at least the question, is whether dps increase and burst increase are interchangeable here, so that from 1800 crit rate Mastery yields more burst as well as more dps than Crit - or only more dps and the same number for burst is perhaps 2000 crit or even more.

[Kurfer]

This bolster system is terrible.

 

In old 208 set bonuse armorings with all purple 230 mods/enhancements with 240 hilts I had 3660 force power, 47% crit, and 7.8% accuracy

 

As I have been getting 240 pieces I have just simply replaced 4 main items with the 208/230/230 setup with straight 240 and my stats continue to drop.

 

It seems stat wise the BEST possible combination is 204/208 old pvp armorings with 230 everything else and 240 hilts.

 

Nothing beats the stats displayed within the wz itself.

 

Also, based on my merc all 208 (non set bonus) 230/230 does 40% less dmg/dps than my 208 (set bonus) 230/230. The tells me either the set bonus for arsenal mercs is *********** amazing or there is a crazy swing in actual stats on 208 set bonus vs 208 non set bonus.

 

Basically, this system is garbage.

[jordhanus]

This bolster system is terrible.

 

In old 208 set bonuse armorings with all purple 230 mods/enhancements with 240 hilts I had 3660 force power, 47% crit, and 7.8% accuracy

 

As I have been getting 240 pieces I have just simply replaced 4 main items with the 208/230/230 setup with straight 240 and my stats continue to drop.

 

It seems stat wise the BEST possible combination is 204/208 old pvp armorings with 230 everything else and 240 hilts.

 

Nothing beats the stats displayed within the wz itself.

 

Also, based on my merc all 208 (non set bonus) 230/230 does 40% less dmg/dps than my 208 (set bonus) 230/230. The tells me either the set bonus for arsenal mercs is *********** amazing or there is a crazy swing in actual stats on 208 set bonus vs 208 non set bonus.

 

Basically, this system is garbage.

 

Yeah well, set bonus always trumps non set bonus unless the difference in stats is really massive (say 174 vs 240).

[kissingaiur]

Are you sure Mastery has no DR? I find that hard to believe.

 

And the point being, or at least the question, is whether dps increase and burst increase are interchangeable here, so that from 1800 crit rate Mastery yields more burst as well as more dps than Crit - or only more dps and the same number for burst is perhaps 2000 crit or even more.

 

The bonus damage/healing Mastery provides is not subjected to DR but the crit chance you get from Mastery does have a DR.

 

Your question about burst is impossible to answer. All we know is the numbers that are given. Crit start to DR heavily around roughly 1800-1900 and that's the point where Bants calculations say run Mastery. This is all we can really tell you here. Trying to find at what point "burst" (I don't even know how you would even calculate an equation for burst) is worse or better over a flat dps increase from Mastery, is way beyond anyone's math capabities here.

[TrixxieTriss]

Deleted Edited January 19, 2017 by TrixxieTriss

[Lhancelot]

Yeah well, set bonus always trumps non set bonus unless the difference in stats is really massive (say 174 vs 240).

 

Pretty sure set bonuses never gave a 40% increase in total damage output like Kurfer is explaining he has seen and witnessed with his own eyes while testing his gears.

 

Bolster has never been linear or transparent, and there are hidden values behind the visual stats we are seeing in the wzs. I have no doubt about it. His personal experience only proves that.

 

Bolster also has never been wonkier, and the present bolster system is truly indecipherable. I hate it, and I hate the RNG crate system they have implemented for gearing.

 

This is a giant **** show and I hope they pull their heads out their posteriors and either improve it, or revert back to the old gearing system.

 

Removing expertise doesn't bother me so much, but everything else they changed regarding gearing was unnecessary and only made it worse.

 

Say it over and over again, if it aint broke don't fix it. The gearing system of old wasn't broken, in fact it was one of the only things people did not complain about.

[yellow_]

Pretty sure set bonuses never gave a 40% increase in total damage output like Kurfer is explaining he has seen and witnessed with his own eyes while testing his gears.

You're just going to take him at his word that it's a 40% difference? He has posted ZERO actual evidence for that number. It is almost certainly wrong or misrepresenting the situation (trying to be nice here) in one way or another.

Bolster has never been linear or transparent, and there are hidden values behind the visual stats we are seeing in the wzs. I have no doubt about it. His personal experience only proves that.

Bolster conspiracy theories based on a single, completely anecdotal post. NICE

 

Another quality post from lhancelot

Edited January 19, 2017 by yellow_

[jordhanus]

The bonus damage/healing Mastery provides is not subjected to DR but the crit chance you get from Mastery does have a DR.

 

Your question about burst is impossible to answer. All we know is the numbers that are given. Crit start to DR heavily around roughly 1800-1900 and that's the point where Bants calculations say run Mastery. This is all we can really tell you here. Trying to find at what point "burst" (I don't even know how you would even calculate an equation for burst) is worse or better over a flat dps increase from Mastery, is way beyond anyone's math capabities here.

 

Thanks, guess those crit augs will fly then - sit on a ridiculous 3600 crit when bolstered

[jedcjedcjedc]

Thanks, guess those crit augs will fly then - sit on a ridiculous 3600 crit when bolstered

 

i have like 1970 or so crit and it gives me just under 50% crit chance. I can only imagine how much 3600 would give and how harsh that DR would be lol.

[jordhanus]

i have like 1970 or so crit and it gives me just under 50% crit chance. I can only imagine how much 3600 would give and how harsh that DR would be lol.

 

Yeah I have the impression that at that range there are actually negative marginal returns

 

(I'll try this out later today by swapping out one aug after the other)

[Lhancelot]

You're just going to take him at his word that it's a 40% difference? He has posted ZERO actual evidence for that number. It is almost certainly wrong or misrepresenting the situation (trying to be nice here) in one way or another.

 

Bolster conspiracy theories based on a single, completely anecdotal post. NICE

 

Another quality post from lhancelot

 

I am surprised you even are questioning the experience shared by Kurfer.

 

Granted maybe "40%" is not 100% exact as far as how much better his gears perform when wearing 208 set gears to 208 non-set gears, but are you really implying that bolster is NOT wonky and IS working properly?

 

Even in Hottie's thread here, she herself has mentioned inconsistencies regarding the effect of bolster when certain gears are worn compared to others and that's just on the visible character sheet!

 

What's going on behind that character sheet is a really good question.

 

Yellow, exactly what does Kurfer gain by making his experience up anyway?

 

Quality post by me or not, it's pretty clear there's no concise evidence that the numbers shown when bolstered in a wz actually are in effect. Any proof you have that it is will be nothing but anecdotal on your behalf, unless you provide parses that prove so.

 

I think there's a very good chance that not only is bolster totally skewed and out of whack, but numbers shown on the character sheet do not actually represent actual numbers that effect your numbers in the warzones accurately.

[TrixxieTriss]

Bolster's always been a fickle beast. Some of you might know Icykill's old gearing thread and bolster. What some of you mightn't know is Icy is my partner. I've seen her toil through the intricacies of Bolster since it was first implemented.

Back in 4.0 she said it had nearly reached a perfect and easy to understand system. But there were still anomalies that she got to the bottom of and tried to answered all the questions about Bolster, at least for someone who doesn't work at Bio.

 

I've been discussing the 5.0 system with her and got her to read this thread because she's stopped playing due to the bad implementation of the expansion.

 

Here are somethings she's been able to pick out of the thread that Hottie has tested and others have noticed.

 

1. Even though if might not seem this way, she's pretty sure Bolster is working as intended and is probably still following the same system as it was in 4.0

 

2. The reason people are having what appear to be strange results is Bolster has always had a critical stat point that if you pass it, you will lose other stats, even if the gear level equiped is the sweet spot.

 

3. Now that expertise is no longer in the game, Bolster is compensating more. She thinks they may even be using the same algorithm, just with expertise removed.

 

*Now please stay with me because I'm doing this part from memory and I may say things out of order*

 

The way she explained it to me is that there will be built in flat caps for each stat. As you pass those flat caps it will reduce other stats.

ie, when you roughly reach the Bolster gear cap you will start to see Bolster fine tune and balance based on any stats not balanced under that cap. So say the cap was 100 master or power and you went to 120. Then another stat such as crit and alacrity would get reduced to compensate for extra potential output those other stats give. But then if you try increasing those stats again you will lose some damage numbers.

The reason Bolster seems more erratic this time is because people are putting in different level mods and enhancements with the gear armor in each piece of gear.

Icy tested this sort of gearing in 3:0/4.0 and got similar looking results as you guys are at the moment. She tested it for weeks to lock down exactly how it worked. Her conclusions once again coincided with what I've said above about the individual stat caps.

ie (Note, this is just an example and may not represent Hotties testing exactly)

Say you have an armor set of say, 208 and the gear cap is 230. Bolster will increase your stats to the base stats it gives you, this is usually a little below the cap (let's say 220 for this example) and with the current gearing system it is hard to get set bonuses fast, so people are keeping in their old 208 set bonus armor piece and adding higher end mods and enhancements.

** one thing I'll quickly add here is that Bolster does take into account the bonuses a little bit, but it's hardly noticeable**

Because Bolster looks at the armor lvl first, it bases the base stats off this. So when you add different lvl mods, etc, Bolster then needs to step in and adjust those stats so they balance with the base stats. I know this seems convoluted, but that's the only way Bolster can keep pieces from making a slot OP. If you put in 3 different gear lvls in the same piece you will see even stranger results. Now all of that is just for one slot piece.

With Bolster balancing each slot first and then balancing the stats for all the gear after, it will give wacky looking results if you are just trying to test it for each slot or mod/enhancement change and if you have a hodge podge setup

Bolster also likes it when things are simple for it to work out (lol), so if every slot is filled with the same lvl gear, you will get a much smoother and accurate representation of what the intended gear cap is for all the stats.

That being said, we know the Devs rarely understand what stats are needed in pvp, accuracy is a prime example here, so this opens up the window to min max those stats to their BiS. In the past we've known that the top pvp armor is the Bolster cap, so it was easy to min max with augments or other pvp mods and enhancement from the pvp vendors. With things the way they are now and not having dedicated pvp armor, we're still not sure what BiS is and probably won't know for months of trial and error, even then it will still be contentious.

Hotties testing is starting to show where and especially how to find those BiS stats using the higher gear lvl mods and enhancements. But when people are eventually able to gear all internals (with the lvl cap set bonuses) with the same lvl items and every slot filled with the same lvl, we will see much smoother results as Bolster really likes every slot to be the same level. It's from there that you be able to work out the easiest way to min max.

 

Anyway I hope some of that made sense. Icy just skimmed through what I wrote and she said it's close enough, lol.

If you have any questions let me know and I'll see if I can pick her Brain a bit more.

 

She asked me to add this. It was much easier in 3.0 (and to a lesser extent in 4.0 because they broke it) to do all of this testing because the Bolster terminals on the fleets allowed for real WZ stat comparisons. She could just sit there with a cargo hold full of gear and test for hours. She didn't need to enter matches to get the real numbers.

So she applauds all of Hotties hard work and those that have helped her