Vaylin's backstory isn't good; it's just manipulative

[hogkiller]

Sorry to come here just to complain, but I need to get this off my chest; and I'm kind of hoping to get some insight on this from a different perspective. I just hate when writers torture their characters just to make them more sympathetic. Partly because it's cheap writing, but mostly because it actually works.

 

Remember in KOTFE when the player character and Senya are breaking into the Old World and you can ask her what her family life used to be like? She said that Valkorian locked away most of her power and much of who she was, and that he did it because she was always violent, and this made sense to me because I thought Vaylin came across as just another over-privileged dark-sider, but that she was also drunk on her newly restored freedom and power. I didn't find her that interesting, but I didn't think she was on objectively bad character.

 

This whole Nathema thing, though, is pure overkill. What would even be the point of most of the things they did to her? And wouldn't Valkorion be able to control her in his typical way? I'm starting to forget how to articulate my thoughts because I feel sick with pity. Guess I'll just settle for saying I find her updated backstory to be horribly sensationalist and manipulative, and I'm really disappointed with it.

[SithKoriandr]

The story is, Valkorion couldn't control his daughter. That's why the conditioning. She was more powerful than him.

 

However, instead of giving her love and affection to teach her to control her powers, he took her to the one planet to contain it and put the power under his control.

 

There was no way he could have her walking around without any control on his part. If she was dark sided without the control, she'd take his place. If she was light sided (by having love and affection from her mother) she'd likely rise up against him as well.

 

His option was to either kill her or control her. He likely went the control her route, because that's his way. Plus, it would leave him with another vessel to inhabit and this one with lots of power.

 

Senya, of course, was never going to over power her husband, so her children were basically lost from the beginning.

[AshlaBoga]

Sorry to come here just to complain, but I need to get this off my chest; and I'm kind of hoping to get some insight on this from a different perspective. I just hate when writers torture their characters just to make them more sympathetic. Partly because it's cheap writing, but mostly because it actually works.

I'm starting to forget how to articulate my thoughts because I feel sick with pity.

 

I'm less sick with pity and more homicidal with anger.

 

I'm looking forward to killing Valk, the guy is a schutta through and through.

[Argonloris]

It's worth pointing out that Vaylin was going dark side from the beginning. Yes the level of torture that she went through pushed her to a very extreme level. It is worth noting however that if you watch cinematic done by Blur that even as a child she found joy in her rage. While Valkorian ensured that she would be a powerful dark side user without love or compassion for anyone, I think her early choices made much of her character a forgone conclusion.

[SerraShar]

I think.....I dont think Vaylin was evil since she was little . That Trailer where she is playing with a toy , and where she lift all the knight around...

 

I think as a child (which often childrens do think of stuff but never and cannot perceive the consequences) , she wanted to imitate her brothers . We do see her watching them spare and she seemed eager to join in .

 

then she imitate their movements . And well...we saw what she could do .

 

I dont believe she was evil since she was born , I think Valk focusing on the boys (no shocker there) made her feel isolated . You combine that with her mother working then later sent to Nathema....the worst most painful pain of all..is to feel abandoned to one fate and nobody coming to save you . You add the torture and her mind snapped . By the time Senya get to her.....It was too late.....damage was done .

[SithKoriandr]

I think.....I dont think Vaylin was evil since she was little . That Trailer where she is playing with a toy , and where she lift all the knight around...

 

I think as a child (which often childrens do think of stuff but never and cannot perceive the consequences) , she wanted to imitate her brothers . We do see her watching them spare and she seemed eager to join in .

 

then she imitate their movements . And well...we saw what she could do .

 

I dont believe she was evil since she was born , I think Valk focusing on the boys (no shocker there) made her feel isolated . You combine that with her mother working then later sent to Nathema....the worst most painful pain of all..is to feel abandoned to one fate and nobody coming to save you . You add the torture and her mind snapped . By the time Senya get to her.....It was too late.....damage was done .

 

Senya was overpowered by Valkorian. Valk broke her, but she knew her mom came to save her. She is an adult. At some point, the blame is on her.

 

One could say she was made insane. Then what is she left with? A padded cell. Nowhere have we seen SW have a cure for insanity.

[SerraShar]

Senya was overpowered by Valkorian. Valk broke her, but she knew her mom came to save her. She is an adult. At some point, the blame is on her.

 

One could say she was made insane. Then what is she left with? A padded cell. Nowhere have we seen SW have a cure for insanity.

 

cose they are just lazy...

 

they can find trick to cheats deaths , but nobody work that hard to do the opposite with curing and healing .

 

I'm pretty sure , Jedi consular would've been a perfect candidat to try . Hell...I always though Jedi consular was perfect to be the Martyr you know . Self sacrifice *droole*....Too bad though lol cose its an MMO...you can just dream about the option .

[krakadyla]

Vaylin's backstory is just "Mass Effect 2" Jack's backstory re-skinned. Wee lil' Vaylin even looks like Jack, bald head and tats and all. Albeit Jack turned out way better character, though that's mostly because Mass Effect setting is less melodramatic. I remember seeing somewhere that "Mass Effect Andromeda" and KOTET were sharing the same dev teams, and seems that those teams were sharing ideas...

[AshlaBoga]

Vaylin's backstory is just "Mass Effect 2" Jack's backstory re-skinned. Wee lil' Vaylin even looks like Jack, bald head and tats and all. Albeit Jack turned out way better character, though that's mostly because Mass Effect setting is less melodramatic. I remember seeing somewhere that "Mass Effect Andromeda" and KOTET were sharing the same dev teams, and seems that those teams were sharing ideas...

 

Yeah, Jack's backstory was every bit as bad and Jack merely turned out to be reckless and a massive danger to property. How she managed to crash a space station into a moon without killing anyone I'll never know.

 

Jack was raped when she was a young teenager (closer to 13 than 18) and she didn't become the Psycho Queen of the Galaxy. Vaylin did have a small chance to become Jack instead of a corpse, but I don't blame her for breaking. Still, she was too powerful for my toons to imprison. Killing her was the only option I had in that situation.

Edited December 5, 2016 by AshlaBoga

[gaelicvixen]

"There's nothing as pure and as cruel as a child."

 

So said Jet Black in the Pierrot le Fou episode of Cowboy Bebop, and he was not wrong. Children can and will do horrible things if they aren't taught otherwise. Vaylin's father as a child is a perfect in-universe example of this and I feel certain that's intentional. He even says she was his favourite. Why? Probably because in his eyes she's the most like him. Thexan was too stoic, too much like a Jedi, while Arcann was too emotional, too much like the Sith. As Valkorion he had cast off the Empire and Republic as being unworthy of saving and destroying, respectively, so his apathy towards his sons was almost to be expected. And then there's little Vaylin. So powerful, so cute, so loved by her brothers and mother. Senya was afraid for Vaylin, not of Vaylin, and thanks to Vitiate-as-Valkorion playing the long game with Zakuul she had NO idea what kind of monster her husband was so she goes to him, naively believing that he will help their daughter. When she finds out what's really happening she tries to rescue her daughter, but by then it's too late.

 

The fact that it is shown to be too late, that time and again Vaylin demonstrates the difference between her and Arcann, is the only thing that prevents me from agreeing that she's one of those characters who has a tragic past because she's supposed to be grim-dark and/or sympathetic.

 

Yes, what was done to her was unconscionable. Yes, we should be sickened by the recordings on those datapads. We should feel revulsion when we realise Valkorion gave a child over to a Mengele stand-in. But is it really the writers being manipulative, when the character remains true to her damage? She isn't a gleeful sadist one minute who shows a "softer side" when the hero appears. She's not a yandere. She does not want our sympathy, our affection, or our understanding. With the exception of a single, incredibly brief moment at the end of KotFE, what we see in Vaylin is the sociopath (for lack of a better word) that her time on Nathema made of her.

 

Perhaps it's a matter of opinion or perspective, but as I see things it would be far more manipulative to make Vaylin somehow redeemable because that would diminish the horror of her experience and for what purpose? To placate that portion of the audience uncomfortable with the notion that some characters are beyond redemption and indeed in some cases, would throw the offer back in their would-be saviour's face?

[Canareth]

Even at the very end scene, Vaylin doesn't recover. She's just giddy that the Outlander is going to enable her to kill Father and he's obviously afraid.

[Xilizhra]

"There's nothing as pure and as cruel as a child."

 

So said Jet Black in the Pierrot le Fou episode of Cowboy Bebop, and he was not wrong. Children can and will do horrible things if they aren't taught otherwise. Vaylin's father as a child is a perfect in-universe example of this and I feel certain that's intentional. He even says she was his favourite. Why? Probably because in his eyes she's the most like him. Thexan was too stoic, too much like a Jedi, while Arcann was too emotional, too much like the Sith. As Valkorion he had cast off the Empire and Republic as being unworthy of saving and destroying, respectively, so his apathy towards his sons was almost to be expected. And then there's little Vaylin. So powerful, so cute, so loved by her brothers and mother. Senya was afraid for Vaylin, not of Vaylin, and thanks to Vitiate-as-Valkorion playing the long game with Zakuul she had NO idea what kind of monster her husband was so she goes to him, naively believing that he will help their daughter. When she finds out what's really happening she tries to rescue her daughter, but by then it's too late.

 

The fact that it is shown to be too late, that time and again Vaylin demonstrates the difference between her and Arcann, is the only thing that prevents me from agreeing that she's one of those characters who has a tragic past because she's supposed to be grim-dark and/or sympathetic.

 

Yes, what was done to her was unconscionable. Yes, we should be sickened by the recordings on those datapads. We should feel revulsion when we realise Valkorion gave a child over to a Mengele stand-in. But is it really the writers being manipulative, when the character remains true to her damage? She isn't a gleeful sadist one minute who shows a "softer side" when the hero appears. She's not a yandere. She does not want our sympathy, our affection, or our understanding. With the exception of a single, incredibly brief moment at the end of KotFE, what we see in Vaylin is the sociopath (for lack of a better word) that her time on Nathema made of her.

 

Perhaps it's a matter of opinion or perspective, but as I see things it would be far more manipulative to make Vaylin somehow redeemable because that would diminish the horror of her experience and for what purpose? To placate that portion of the audience uncomfortable with the notion that some characters are beyond redemption and indeed in some cases, would throw the offer back in their would-be saviour's face?

There's no such thing as someone who's beyond redemption; all you need is the right perspective and the right tools. I'll admit that it might be uncomfortable to admit the need to screw with Vaylin's mind some more to undo the damage done by the previous screwing, but it'd be a more interesting plot than simply throwing her away.

[MandelynRain]

There are people beyond redemption....Hitler, Manson, Dahmer, etc. You can psychologically break a person beyond the point of healing.

[Aeneas_Falco]

There's no such thing as someone who's beyond redemption; all you need is the right perspective and the right tools.

 

Yes there is.

 

In order to get redemption a person has to want it. Vaylin didn't, and she makes that abundantly clear multiple times. She's an unrepentant psychopath incapable of feeling empathy for anyone.

 

Bioware got it right in having the only possible outcome for her being death-by-Outlander.

Edited December 8, 2016 by Aeneas_Falco

[Paulsutherland]

Yes there is.

 

In order to get redemption a person has to want it. Vaylin didn't, and she makes that abundantly clear multiple times. She's an unrepentant psychopath incapable of feeling empathy for anyone.

 

Bioware got it right in having the only possible outcome for her being death-by-Outlander.

 

She did briefly when she thought she was talking to Thexan.

[gaelicvixen]

She did briefly when she thought she was talking to Thexan.

 

She has a moment on Arcann's ship when she appears to feel something - her eyebrows relax - but she makes no attempt to join her mother and brother. Maybe she's intrigued by the offer Senya makes, or maybe she's looking at the pair of them thinking that the distance between her and them is fitting because she is not like them. She doesn't even have their eyes - not Senya's blue or Valkorion's amber, but the same Sith eyes that Lana has, which had to be intentional. (I half-expected her eyes to turn black like Tenebrae's when her conditioning was broken.)

 

She does have another relaxed eyebrow moment on Iokath when she briefly believes that ARIES is Thexan. He was obviously important to her, but that doesn't mean she isn't a sociopath. They do have moments when they feel as others do, albeit briefly, and they can form attachments to people.

 

To me that's part of the horror, though, seeing her have those brief moments where you think "Maybe there's hope for her after all" only to have the moment pass. It makes her human, reminds us that monsters are people, too, which is another part of the horror. It's uncomfortable to watch, yes, but it's good storytelling imo.

[josephinec]

There are people who are beyond redemption. That being said, Arcann didn't ask for it. Senya plucked him out of debris and dragged him to Voss. Yeah, he defended her from Vaylin, but he must have known they weren't going to go fight the Outlander.

[Xilizhra]

Yes there is.

 

In order to get redemption a person has to want it. Vaylin didn't, and she makes that abundantly clear multiple times. She's an unrepentant psychopath incapable of feeling empathy for anyone.

 

Bioware got it right in having the only possible outcome for her being death-by-Outlander.

She was broken by mental conditioning; she can be fixed by the same means.

[Slowpokeking]

The story is, Valkorion couldn't control his daughter. That's why the conditioning. She was more powerful than him.

 

However, instead of giving her love and affection to teach her to control her powers, he took her to the one planet to contain it and put the power under his control.

 

There was no way he could have her walking around without any control on his part. If she was dark sided without the control, she'd take his place. If she was light sided (by having love and affection from her mother) she'd likely rise up against him as well.

 

His option was to either kill her or control her. He likely went the control her route, because that's his way. Plus, it would leave him with another vessel to inhabit and this one with lots of power.

 

Senya, of course, was never going to over power her husband, so her children were basically lost from the beginning.

 

But he was able to defeat her plus Arcann and us in the final battle.