Thoughts on KOTET chapters (spoilers).

[AngFour]

As I already implied, I've played every class and finished all of the companion stories. Torian and Vette were both unimpressive in my eyes. Thus, even for someone who knew those characters, it was a meaningless decision. Now had it been Mako and DS Jaesa, then yeah I would have cared more. Torian and Vette are throwaway companions, which is why BioWare used them. Just imagine the outrage had either Lana or Theron died.

 

I somehow doubt you were in the majority. Honestly, I would argue most people did not care about either Vette or Torian. They are less popular companions so I seriously question if this was a hard choice for many.

 

That is why I think either Lana or Theron should have died. BioWare took the easy way out and killed companions most don't care about. Had BioWare cared to use the main love interests or popular companions instead, that would have had greater impact. Of course, half the forums would be raging about the decision, but that would have meant the consequence had real impact and results.

 

DId you read my entire post? I agreed with you about how it should have been Lana and Theron.

 

Do you read any of the other forums? Because there's an entire thread dedicated to "Chapter 8 Choice" talking about how sad it was and people debating and discussing why they chose who they did. It's in the spoiler section because it's a spoiler and not something that should be being discussed in the General Forums.

 

Do you read Reddit? Same thing there.

 

Just because YOU didn't like them and YOU weren't affected doesn't mean that my point is invalid; that BW relied on player's OOG knowledge of those characters to pull on heartstrings instead of character realistic knowledge.

 

I'm not a big, huge fan of Torian. Nothing against the guy or anything. But I'm also not a big fan of DS Jaesa. Because *gasp* people like different things. Had it been Mako and DS Jaesa (as you suggested), I'd choose Mako every time, because DS Jaesa isn't really my cup of tea. Doesn't mean I wouldn't feel bad because though I don't like her much, she's still a familiar character, and it always sucks when familiar characters get killed. Well, *I* think it sucks, at least.

 

As for your point about how that choice didn't matter in the long run, you're absolutely right. It doesn't. But the journey is usually better than the ending anyway. THAT'S why KotET is worth more than one play through. Just my two alone, while ending the same way, had pretty different journeys.

 

Just having one character romance Theron gave that run an entirely different feel than the one who didn't, because his overall dialogue was completely different, and both of them usually picked "Conversation Option One."

 

Killing Senya/Arcann as opposed to not changed how Chapters 8 & 9 played out, because the companions who are with you are different. Sparing Arcann changed the entire conversation with Vaylin and Valkorion right before the entire battle.

 

Yes. The end was the same. We beat the bad guy. Big surprise, because that's what eventually happens at the end of every story. Shocking spoiler alert for, like, every story ever written.

 

But the journey totally had a different feel based off of the choices we made in KotET, something I appreciated.

[Aowin]

I think it's more to do with Theron and Lana helping push the plot if/when they continue the story.

 

Considering the Outlander is technically in charge, neither Lana or Theron is actually required to "push the plot" forward. It's likely a cost-benefit analysis on BioWare's part as they'd rather just invest in those two voice actors and not worry about diversifying the cast of characters.

[Aowin]

Doc? lol

 

I mean, we could go back and forth on who we believe is the most popular but there's really no hard evidence. I'm not convinced that was their intent though. It just seems like people are unhappy b/c their faves didn't come back.

 

You just contradicted yourself. First, you state "there's really no hard evidence." At the same time, you concede that "people are unhappy b/c their faves didn't come back." You can't have it both ways. You either agree that the most popular companions haven't returned or you disagree. As I already stated, what generally appear to be the most popular companions have not returned at this point.

[casirabit]

I guess it may be different if you are a trooper, but I don't think Aric got one line of dialogue for my Jedi Knight. I don't even remember seeing him other than doing the bonus mission for the Battle of Odessen where he is sniping on a cliff.

 

It seems Theron got a lot of love with this expansion. Perhaps someone else who has also done the Lana romance can comment, but I really feel as though BioWare dropped the ball on that romance. There just weren't a lot of moments that stand out to me.

 

My smuggler romanced Koth and his were sweet and maybe not as much as Theron's (haven't done that one yet) but there ware more than I expected and kind of cute especially for Koth.

 

I know most people hate Koth but for my smuggler he fit. Now my sorcerer on the other hand......

[Aowin]

But the journey totally had a different feel based off of the choices we made in KotET, something I appreciated.

 

While this may be stating the obvious, the "other forums" and "reddit" do not comprise the majority of the player base. The forums are a minority of the community and in no way are indicative of major trends of the player base. Just because you are able to find a handful of players who agree with your line of reasoning doesn't make it the consensus of the majority of players.

 

As I said, I've played every player class. I've conversed with all companions. Torian and Vette, in my personal opinion, are not that engaging or interesting. I do not believe most would consider them popular companions, which is why I believe BioWare saw them as expendable. Going back and forth on this is ultimately trivial.

 

Well back to the meat of the subject, my issue with KOTET was the story, regardless of the lackluster ending. BioWare was clearly pressed for time and decided to rush the entirety of this story arc into nine chapters. The results weren't pretty and a lot wasn't explained. Sure, we are now in control of the eternal fleet. However, as you stated yourself, the journey is ultimately what should be the most important part. This is why I believe KOTFE was stronger than KOTET due to having a more compelling journey. KOTET was just an easy excuse to end a story folks had mixed feelings about.

 

I'm glad you enjoyed KOTET. It copied a little too much from BioWare's other properties and I think BioWare had a knee jerk reaction to the negative criticism of KOTFE. It came across as sloppy and rushed to me. I enjoyed the first two chapters, but things quickly devolved into a mess after that for me. To many missed opportunities and head-scratching moments just make this story a decent one at best. I'm hoping BioWare will improve with future expansions story-wise, but I'm not sure if they know how to intelligently parse through player feedback.

[Aowin]

My smuggler romanced Koth and his were sweet and maybe not as much as Theron's (haven't done that one yet) but there ware more than I expected and kind of cute especially for Koth.

 

I know most people hate Koth but for my smuggler he fit. Now my sorcerer on the other hand......

 

I actually don't mind Koth, even though most seem to hate him supposedly. Only KOTFE companion I've romanced is Lana and so far her showing was far more personal in KOTFE than KOTET.

[AngFour]

While this may be stating the obvious, the "other forums" and "reddit" do not comprise the majority of the player base. The forums are a minority of the community and in no way are indicative of major trends of the player base. Just because you are able to find a handful of players who agree with your line of reasoning doesn't make it the consensus of the majority of players.

 

As I said, I've played every player class. I've conversed with all companions. Torian and Vette, in my personal opinion, are not that engaging or interesting. I do not believe most would consider them popular companions, which is why I believe BioWare saw them as expendable. Going back and forth on this is ultimately trivial.

 

Well back to the meat of the subject, my issue with KOTET was the story, regardless of the lackluster ending. BioWare was clearly pressed for time and decided to rush the entirety of this story arc into nine chapters. The results weren't pretty and a lot wasn't explained. Sure, we are now in control of the eternal fleet. However, as you stated yourself, the journey is ultimately what should be the most important part. This is why I believe KOTFE was stronger than KOTET due to having a more compelling journey. KOTET was just an easy excuse to end a story folks had mixed feelings about.

 

I'm glad you enjoyed KOTET. It copied a little too much from BioWare's other properties and I think BioWare had a knee jerk reaction to the negative criticism of KOTFE. It came across as sloppy and rushed to me. I enjoyed the first two chapters, but things quickly devolved into a mess after that for me. To many missed opportunities and head-scratching moments just make this story a decent one at best. I'm hoping BioWare will improve with future expansions story-wise, but I'm not sure if they know how to intelligently parse through player feedback.

 

Ultimately, I agree with most of what you're saying and it appears we're just debating about who we think other people think are popular, which as you said, is a pretty trivial (and pointless) argument.

 

BW is totally copying their other games. I frggin' CALLED IT (back when KotFE dropped) that there was going to be a Virmire choice. Mass Effect (obviously) did it. DA:I did it. Why wouldn't SWTOR do it? It's not like they'd be gone permanently, seeing as you can get them back from the terminal to do crafting missions/things not the main story. They'd just be gone in the story itself. It was met with me being called stupid. So, regardless of how important (or unimportant) the choice was, a small part of me is cackling with glee because I was right and they were wrong

 

Look, I'm not saying that KotFE was a bad story, nor am I even saying that KotET is the best story. KotFE WAS good...the first two times (or so) you run it. KotET is good, but I'm sure that story will start to look really bad after running it a dozen times or so. Any story starts looking bad when you've seen it dozens of times.

 

Ultimately, BW can do better. They can bring back our LI's, who are INEXPLICABLY missing at this point. They can do better than having ANOTHER GOD POWERFUL faction that our intrepid adventurers have to deal with. At least I HOPE they can :/

[Aowin]

Ultimately, I agree with most of what you're saying and it appears we're just debating about who we think other people think are popular, which as you said, is a pretty trivial (and pointless) argument.

 

BW is totally copying their other games. I frggin' CALLED IT (back when KotFE dropped) that there was going to be a Virmire choice. Mass Effect (obviously) did it. DA:I did it. Why wouldn't SWTOR do it? It's not like they'd be gone permanently, seeing as you can get them back from the terminal to do crafting missions/things not the main story. They'd just be gone in the story itself. It was met with me being called stupid. So, regardless of how important (or unimportant) the choice was, a small part of me is cackling with glee because I was right and they were wrong

 

Look, I'm not saying that KotFE was a bad story, nor am I even saying that KotET is the best story. KotFE WAS good...the first two times (or so) you run it. KotET is good, but I'm sure that story will start to look really bad after running it a dozen times or so. Any story starts looking bad when you've seen it dozens of times.

 

Ultimately, BW can do better. They can bring back our LI's, who are INEXPLICABLY missing at this point. They can do better than having ANOTHER GOD POWERFUL faction that our intrepid adventurers have to deal with. At least I HOPE they can :/

 

Honestly, the fact that you can still use Torian or Vette as a companion really undermines the power of that choice in my opinion. I know Charles was debating back and forth how exactly to tackle this issue. In my opinion, much like HK-55 was killed in the story (only returned if you were a subscriber), I think these other companions should be permanently dead. Maybe it's just me, but I like to think my choices actually have consequences.

 

I'm not trying to hold BioWare to some impossible standard. I was pleasantly impressed with the first nine chapters of KOTFE. BioWare struggled with some of the monthly chapters due to bad pacing, but otherwise I thoroughly enjoyed KOTFE. KOTET, on the other hand, seemed like a rash response to criticisms of KOTFE. It's much shorter. It has rapid pacing to the point of not really explaining anything. Characters can die left and right. No monthly chapters or returning class companions of any kind.

 

I guess my real issue is that KOTET just feels anti-KOTFE, if that makes sense. I really thought BioWare was onto something special with the monthly chapter setup. It really motivated me to stay subscribed to see what would happen next month. Unfortunately, BioWare tossed that entire format out and I'm left with a bad taste in my mouth from a rushed and incomplete KOTET story. I just don't believe BioWare did this leg of the story justice and I don't see how they thought they could with only nine chapters. Now I'm left hoping next year's nine chapters will be better, and I don't think that's how BioWare wanted their fans coming out of finishing the KOTET story.

 

I'd like for future storytelling to be a lot more personal and more about your companions rather than these intergalactic threats. I know the Republic and Empire are still technically "threats," but I'd like to see a bigger focus on characters going forward. It would be nice if BioWare incorporated loyalty missions to provide further development to the companions (old and new). It would also be interesting to see what kind of interesting challenges BioWare could create being the peacekeeper/emperor of the entire galaxy and trying to mend it after years of war and bloodshed.

Edited December 3, 2016 by Aowin

[KaistusRal]

On the subject of Lord Scourge. It always boggled my mind that he wasn't right in the fray with Lana in the beginning of KOFTE, and the fact he is still nowhere to be found in KOTET is beyond silly. Has bioware ever explained why? It has to be a logistical thing, like the voice actor wasn't available, because there is no logical or reasonable story explanation.

[Latherfal]

Kotfe and Kotet have never felt very Star Warsy for me.

 

Also, my sage, which is light side and when available, picking the serene 'I will be one with the force if you strike me down' option(s). So having the character snarl, sneer etc seemed to out of character for me to get to involved in the story. I will imagine my scoundrel will seem out of place in very much the same way. More eye rolling and grinning would be more apt. Sarcastic quip to the very end kind of thing.

 

At the completion, I was hoping for some sort of Vaylin story that involved her resisting Valkorion as she was his original target for a vessel and he failed in his first attempt explaining why she was so powerful; the telling of a 'absolute power corrupts' story. Valkorion in the quandary that a significant part of his power was left behind and how he tried to hide and trick his way back to his full might. Anyways, the story arcs over all were not bad between FE and ET but like I mentioned at the start, just did not feel very Star Wars.

[Aowin]

On the subject of Lord Scourge. It always boggled my mind that he wasn't right in the fray with Lana in the beginning of KOFTE, and the fact he is still nowhere to be found in KOTET is beyond silly. Has bioware ever explained why? It has to be a logistical thing, like the voice actor wasn't available, because there is no logical or reasonable story explanation.

 

I could somewhat understand why Scourge might not be affiliated with Lana considering the former Emperor's Wrath was a traitor to the Sith Empire. I'm not exactly sure where Scourge would likely go as anyone he knew would likely be an enemy at that point.

 

If anything, it would have made perfect sense for Scourge to be hiding out on Nathema in isolation from everyone looking for clues to defeating Valkorion. Scourge being absent was definitely a writing blunder on BioWare's part. Given how these contracts work with voice actors, I believe BioWare gives them advance notice and these actors are committed to a certain amount of years for voicing these characters.

[Aowin]

Kotfe and Kotet have never felt very Star Warsy for me.

 

Also, my sage, which is light side and when available, picking the serene 'I will be one with the force if you strike me down' option(s). So having the character snarl, sneer etc seemed to out of character for me to get to involved in the story. I will imagine my scoundrel will seem out of place in very much the same way. More eye rolling and grinning would be more apt. Sarcastic quip to the very end kind of thing.

 

At the completion, I was hoping for some sort of Vaylin story that involved her resisting Valkorion as she was his original target for a vessel and he failed in his first attempt explaining why she was so powerful; the telling of a 'absolute power corrupts' story. Valkorion in the quandary that a significant part of his power was left behind and how he tried to hide and trick his way back to his full might. Anyways, the story arcs over all were not bad between FE and ET but like I mentioned at the start, just did not feel very Star Wars.

 

I think the problem primarily with KOTFE/KOTET is that Valkorion's family is was never clearly defined. He's obviously a Sith, but they aren't. Star Wars has always been about Good versus Evil and in many cases Jedi versus Sith. The main antagonist was never clearly defined within the boundaries of Star Wars so I can understand why it may not seem compelling.

Edited December 3, 2016 by Aowin

[Newyankalt]

I really liked Chapter 2... was refreshing to go back to Imperial and Republic kind of stuff. Dromund was nice to see again.

 

Chapter 2 is why I'm hopeful for where the story may go next, looks like it might go back to Imperials and Republic, Sith and Jedi, with the Eternal Empire/ Alliance being the neutral ground.

[adamstiber]

Super Mario Bros has better story than KOTFE + KOTET together.

[CorellianWannabe]

That is why I think either Lana or Theron should have died. BioWare took the easy way out and killed companions most don't care about. Had BioWare cared to use the main love interests or popular companions instead, that would have had greater impact. Of course, half the forums would be raging about the decision, but that would have meant the consequence had real impact and results.

 

I wish that had been the option! In fact can I kill both of them so maybe the story will actually pretend to care about my character instead of forcing Tweedledee or Tweedledum on me for nearly every sequence?

 

EA won't ever do it though- they love their pet NPC girls (whose names all start with L) and I'm sure there are plenty of ladies at the office that "squee" over Mr. Wannabe Spy.

[Aowin]

I really liked Chapter 2... was refreshing to go back to Imperial and Republic kind of stuff. Dromund was nice to see again.

 

Chapter 2 is why I'm hopeful for where the story may go next, looks like it might go back to Imperials and Republic, Sith and Jedi, with the Eternal Empire/ Alliance being the neutral ground.

 

Based on KOTET ended, that's exactly where we are going. A conflict between the Sith Empire, Republic, and Eternal Alliance. The only issue I see with this is there is a lack of a strong villain now. I also don't see Empress Acina turning on us, so the threat may come from the Republic.

[Aowin]

I wish that had been the option! In fact can I kill both of them so maybe the story will actually pretend to care about my character instead of forcing Tweedledee or Tweedledum on me for nearly every sequence?

 

EA won't ever do it though- they love their pet NPC girls (whose names all start with L) and I'm sure there are plenty of ladies at the office that "squee" over Mr. Wannabe Spy.

 

KOTET/KOTFE are definitely suffering from the same issue DAI had. The player really is a figurehead while the advisors are running the show. In DAI it was Leliana, Josephine, and Cullen making all the major decisions. In KOTFE/KOTET, it's clearly Lana and Theron. Really, this has been a problem since Shadow of Revan.

 

I understand BioWare wants these characters to have crucial roles. I like them. I just want the experience to feel as if I'm really the one leading things and they are merely following my orders.

[cmdrzoom]

"Active" PCs are, as a general rule, tremendously hard to do at the story level in a computer game, online or otherwise. A live GM can improvise on the fly, but a game needs to have writers, programmers and artists anticipate anything that a PC might conceivably do... which is, of course, impossible. So virtually all of them, by necessity, present the player with the path, or two or three paths, that were actually mapped out (and coded, drawn, and voiced) - and that's what you get to choose and react to. Edited December 3, 2016 by cmdrzoom

[LordBritain]

Personally I really enjoyed the story and loved getting to use Walkers. The let down for me was Vaylin when unleashed. In theory we shouldn't have been able to touch her! Somehow my blasters and rockets were sufficient!

[Aowin]

"Active" PCs are, as a general rule, tremendously hard to do at the story level in a computer game, online or otherwise. A live GM can improvise on the fly, but a game needs to have writers, programmers and artists anticipate anything that a PC might conceivably do... which is, of course, impossible. So virtually all of them, by necessity, present the player with the path, or two or three paths, that were actually mapped out (and coded, drawn, and voiced) - and that's what you get to choose and react to.

 

I understand the challenges. What I'm suggesting is we need more scenarios where the player is making choices and telling others what to do instead of Lana and Theron just making decisions and we react to them. We are supposed to be leading this Alliance. It would be nice if it actually came across that we had responsibilities and obligations. I don't believe what I'm asking for is unreasonable.

[AshenK]

I like many of my friends on the swtor sub reddit found the story just full of plot holes and over all bad.

 

Really this shows that Bioware should have been spending more time working on fixing the game, putting in new raids, pvp, gsf, rather then a boring bad story.

[Aowin]

I like many of my friends on the swtor sub reddit found the story just full of plot holes and over all bad.

 

Really this shows that Bioware should have been spending more time working on fixing the game, putting in new raids, pvp, gsf, rather then a boring bad story.

 

That's a contradictory statement. I agree that the story is full of plot holes and definitely was a disappointment. Where I disagree is that this should then compel BioWare to spend more time "putting in new raids, pvp, [and] gsf." Wrong. What BioWare needs to do is actually take time crafting the story and not rush it out in nine brief chapters. KOTFE had its faults, but the format was overall superior with regard to storytelling.

 

Raids are costly and appeal to a minority of the community, which is why BioWare hasn't made any new ones in two years. BioWare also isn't going to make new wzs as they came to the conclusion that does not encourage more players to PvP. As far as GSF, that feature was dead on arrival as most don't care for it.

 

The story can be better. BioWare just needs to realize that taking their time, plotting it out, and going back to the monthly chapter approach will actually be a benefit if the execution is there.

Edited December 3, 2016 by Aowin

[Tsillah]

KotET was much better than KotFE but in essence that wasn't very hard. The sad thing is that KotFE had a number of filler chapters that could've been used to make the story more interesting.

 

I agree with people who speak of Scourge and Kira but also Sith Warriors as the Wrath should get something in the story but this is the issue with a single storyline.

 

And oh, why the hell would my sniper want to be an Empress?

 

And as much as I did like KotET better than KotFE, my sith inquisitor has a new name for Valkorion: Zash II ....been there done that. Valkorion in KotET just completely gave himself up, but of course my character still had no clue...

 

Oh well, it was certainly much more enjoyable than KotFE, but this game has come to an end for me. I played the story through twice (dark and light) and thanks to GC I have no desire to do anything else in this game anymore. The worst decision they ever made was to give up on class stories, but lucky for SWTOR apparently there's a whole tribe of people out there that are very easily pleased.

Edited December 3, 2016 by Tsillah

[CorellianWannabe]

That's a contradictory statement. I agree that the story is full of plot holes and definitely was a disappointment. Where I disagree is that this should then compel BioWare to spend more time "putting in new raids, pvp, [and] gsf." Wrong. What BioWare needs to do is actually take time crafting the story and not rush it out in nine brief chapters. KOTFE had its faults, but the format was overall superior with regard to storytelling.

 

Raids are costly and appeal to a minority of the community, which is why BioWare hasn't made any new ones in two years. BioWare also isn't going to make new wzs as they came to the conclusion that does not encourage more players to PvP. As far as GSF, that feature was dead on arrival as most don't care for it.

 

The story can be better. BioWare just needs to realize that taking their time, plotting it out, and going back to the monthly chapter approach will actually be a benefit if the execution is there.

 

So more people can wait until the final chapter and then subscribe to get it all? I guess that could help boost numbers for one particular month if they need to impress their investors.

[Tarbacca]

The ending was a massive disappointment. 'o btw nothing you did mattered, uniting the entire galaxy didn't mean a dang thing because now the empire and republic are preparing for war again, at least until the next ancient evil awakens and you unite to defeat them too'.

 

Don't get me started on the whole 'twist' of Valkorion betraying you. So predictable I saw it coming from day 1 of KOTFE.