Thoughts on KOTET chapters (spoilers).

[Aowin]

So I have to say I'm a bit disappointed with how KOTET ultimately unraveled. Not only was it incredibly short, leading to much of the story being rushed, but it was also very predictable. I also have to say I'm utterly shocked at how Kira and Lord Scourge were not included in this expansion at all. It was all about Valkorion and even though Hal Hood and Drew Karpyshyn received writing credits (they wrote the Jedi Knight class story), Kira and Scourge were nowhere to be found.

 

Also, Valkorion's rapid mustache-twirling antics right at the very end were so predictable yet also so unsatisfying. Valkorion was a chance to provide Vitiate with nuance and all we got instead was a "ha, I was going to rule all along anyway." We also had a noticeable absence of Satele and Marr from this expansion. Their explanation of this new understanding of the Force was also completely gone, making the inclusion of Chapter 12 even more perplexing.

 

Ironically enough, I think KOTET had the polar opposite problem that KOTFE had. Last year's expansion was drawn out largely because of bad pacing and BioWare not including class companions effectively into the story. Now, we have an expansion that was rushed to the point of much not being explained and many characters who were relevant in previous chapters either being absent or irrelevant to the story.

 

I also felt like the "ending" with the threat of the Republic and the Empire looming over the Eternal Alliance didn't feel like an ending at all. In fact, it really came across as if the story was just beginning, but of course we'll have to wait an entire year to see what BioWare does now. I enjoyed the first two chapters of KOTET, but once we went to Iokath things really just went downhill for me pretty fast.

 

Speaking of Iokath, I love how we were supposed to learn the mystery behind the creation of the gravestone, SCORPIO, the eternal fleet, etc., yet we didn't actually learn anything at all as the creators were dead and the planet was run by a malfunctioning droid for centuries. Lastly, love interests were greatly underused and it came across as if having a flirt option near the very end was more of an afterthought than really trying to build these relationships.

 

Yeah, I'm pretty disappointed by KOTET story-wise. With the main antagonist of SWTOR now finally dead (for now), I wonder what big baddie BioWare will come up with next to fight against our overpowered Eternal Commander/Eternal Emperor. Just a lot of missed opportunities and head-scratching moments with this expansion.

Edited December 1, 2016 by Aowin

[Aowin]

I also did want to make an additional comment that I felt the quality of cutscenes were dramatically inferior in KOTET compared to KOTFE. I'd say Senya in Chapter 1 probably had the best and most epic scenes. After that I can't really think of anything noteworthy. Certainly, there were no epic lightsaber battles (if you are a force sensitive) for the Outlander versus Vaylin or anyone else. Chapter 16 in KOTFE did a great job with respect to cutscenes, yet nothing seem to really come close to that in all of KOTET. Overall, just really disappointing.

[AngFour]

Lastly, love interests were greatly underused and it came across as if having a flirt option near the very end was more of an afterthought than really trying to build these relationships.

 

I'm on my second playthrough with my JK who romanced Theron. My first run was with my IA who remained loyal to Vector. Both characters made mostly LS choices.

 

That being said, a lot Theron's unprompted lines to my JK were different and more flirty and romance-y than they were to my IA's. On Iokath, my JK told him to forget about her and save the Gravestone because the Alliance can't lose it and his response was "And I can't lose you!" Granted my IA chose the second conversation option, but the tone of his voice with my JK was very much along the lines of "I can't lose the person I'm in love with" not "WE can't lose the commander of the Alliance." Not to mention the multiple times he's said, "You've got to stop doing this to me, you're going to give me a heart attack," and the like. He NEVER said that to my Agent.

 

But that's Theron. I haven't done the run where I romanced Lana. And none of my characters romanced Koth. Trooper and Bounty Hunter haven't even done KotFE yet, male SW stopped right after he got Vette back, and I have no male agents, so Kaliyo's romance is never brought up. My point being is that THERON'S romance in KotET is pretty solid, but I can't speak for the others so, depending on who you romanced (you didn't say) they might actually be pretty lacking. I don't know because I haven't seen them yet. Theron's is good though.

 

I liked the story a lot more than KotFE's. Yeah, the end was predictable, but what story ISN'T? We always beat the bad guys in the end. The bad guy who seems like he's helping out ALWAYS does the, "HAHA! I was working for the Walmart all along! (South Park reference)"

 

YMMV, of course. I think KotET is going to get A LOT of backlash because of the RNG gearing, so the story in and of itself will be tainted by that.

 

Or maybe my standards and expectations of Bioware has really gone downhill since RotHC dropped. I dunno.

Edited December 1, 2016 by AngFour

[Sanguinal]

I'm not a fan so far. It seems to be falling prey already to the KotFE problem of you being a co-star, your galaxy shaking force user getting slapped all over the place by everyone and there being no recognition of who you used to be.

 

In fact, it's worse than KotFE already. Darth Imperius, Lord of the Dark Council, Head of the Pyramid of Ancient Knowledge, returns from the dead at the head of an army and Empress Acina is all "Hi, random traveller! You might recognise me from such tyrannies as the Sith Empire! We're darwinian, you know, and our capital is dangerous. Let us chat as though you're a republic citizen and not the most dire threat in the galaxy to me remaining Empress!"

[Kyrra_T]

Mostly I feel sad. My trooper got all of four new lines with Aric. He's a taciturn guy. I didn't expect a lot. But come on...throw me a bone.

 

I'm pretty much resigned to not getting any more companions back, and a universe I'm not at all interested in being a part of any longer. I might play out KOTET with another class to see if they can 'grab' my attention back but ...I'm not counting on that happening.

 

I might feel better given a bit of time but as of this moment, for me, the story is dead. Four years in a MMO is a good run. Guess I'm moving from rudimentary research into what's new out there to serious research.

Edited December 1, 2016 by Kyrra_T

[Kyrrant]

The issue is... KOTET had a pretty nasty challenge ahead of it. It needed to deal with the complete and utter chaotic mess that was KOTFE and try to resolve as much of it as possible.

 

KOTFE was an ambitious as heck challenge, trying to tell a single story with such massive stakes, introducing an entirely new culture with new believes, new force users, new weapons, dealing with the impact of the entire galaxy being vassalized by this emergent threat, plus the loss of all your companions...

 

...and it completely fell apart. Shallow villains, zero development of the Republic or Empire, poor stories, no scope... the story of SWTOR was in the worst place it's ever been as a result of KOTFE shooting for the stars and falling far, far short.

 

KOTET, by comparison, is a much less ambitious entry. No returning companions, no new threats, no foreshadowing, just taking the mess that KOTFE made and trying to wrap as much of it up while telling an entertaining story.

 

And for me, at least, it worked! The only real baggage from KOTFE that anyone really cares about is the lost companions, and yeah, it sucks that we're still missing like half of them, but the main plot was the bigger concern, and I'm glad that we're finally through the weeds of Zakuul.

[Aowin]

...

 

It's possible BioWare may have just dropped the ball on Lana then. She is my romance option for my Jedi Knight and I just felt there was very little there to build the relationship. Other than the obligatory kiss right before the final battle, which is a BioWare staple, it seemed all business and really no chemistry. I'll have to go through it again but it just came across no one companion really had a lot of screen time as BioWare was trying to get everybody in on the action.

 

Galactic Command and RNG doesn't bother me. I thought gear progression was horribly broken since 4.0, so this was a step in the right direction. KOTET just was too short and BioWare tried to cover too much content in my opinion. It just came across as if they never had time to explain anything. Just my opinion, but I enjoyed KOTFE more.

[Suzsi]

Mostly I feel sad. My trooper got all of four new lines with Aric. He's a taciturn guy. I didn't expect a lot. But come on...throw me a bone.

 

I'm pretty much resigned to not getting any more companions back, and a universe I'm not at all interested in being a part of any longer. I might play out KOTET with another class to see if they can 'grab' my attention back but ...I'm not counting on that happening.

 

Yeah, Aric didn't get much at all

Theron got heaps though... Theron was totally adorable with my JK and I wanna play them again.

[Aowin]

I'm not a fan so far. It seems to be falling prey already to the KotFE problem of you being a co-star, your galaxy shaking force user getting slapped all over the place by everyone and there being no recognition of who you used to be.

 

In fact, it's worse than KotFE already. Darth Imperius, Lord of the Dark Council, Head of the Pyramid of Ancient Knowledge, returns from the dead at the head of an army and Empress Acina is all "Hi, random traveller! You might recognise me from such tyrannies as the Sith Empire! We're darwinian, you know, and our capital is dangerous. Let us chat as though you're a republic citizen and not the most dire threat in the galaxy to me remaining Empress!"

 

I'm having a really hard time appreciating how powerful the Outlander is when he/she just seems to get beat up by everyone. We never had a decent explanation for why the Outlander is more powerful now after Chapter 12 and all that seems to happen are deus ex machina moments to keep the story going forward without necessarily any rationale.

 

I understand that Vaylin is apparently the most powerful force user ever, which is why Valkorion tried to contain her for his own fear of being destroyed. However, her death didn't make a lot of sense either. Considering she could just crush anyone with the flick of her wrist, the Outlander and the rest of the Valkorion family should not have stood a chance with her full potential being unleashed.

 

KOTET was clearly made for the Jedi Knight. It's inconsistencies like that where being a Sith Inquisitor/Sith Warrior just fall apart. Acina should know who the Emperor's Wrath and Darth Nox are. BioWare really needs to try and figure out a better way to tackle this "one shoe fits all" approach. The story just isn't holding up for every class.

[Aowin]

...

 

I wouldn't necessarily say KOTFE was a mess, but there were a lot of loose ends that needed to be resolved. KOTET didn't really resolve any of them other than the Eternal Throne problem. Again, I don't mind BioWare expanding upon the lore, but don't just bring something up in one chapter and never revisit it.

 

Chapter 12 is really bothering me and the fact that Satele and Marr had no role after it at all is even stranger. The Outlander clearly becomes more powerful because of this new understanding, but as Valkorion puts it the Outlander also makes himself/herself vulnerable to Valkorion's domination. It just would have been nice had this massively lore-changing concept been explored further instead of being dropped completely.

 

There really is no justified reason why Kira and Scourge did not return. Their absence simply does not make sense and was a huge, missed opportunity. I understand bringing companions back is a challenge, but come on they are literally more relevant to Valkorion than anyone else.

 

Maybe KOTET will grow on me if I play it more, but it just honestly lacked substance.

[Aowin]

Yeah, Aric didn't get much at all

Theron got heaps though... Theron was totally adorable with my JK and I wanna play them again.

 

I guess it may be different if you are a trooper, but I don't think Aric got one line of dialogue for my Jedi Knight. I don't even remember seeing him other than doing the bonus mission for the Battle of Odessen where he is sniping on a cliff.

 

It seems Theron got a lot of love with this expansion. Perhaps someone else who has also done the Lana romance can comment, but I really feel as though BioWare dropped the ball on that romance. There just weren't a lot of moments that stand out to me.

[Kyrrant]

I wouldn't necessarily say KOTFE was a mess, but there were a lot of loose ends that needed to be resolved. KOTET didn't really resolve any of them other than the Eternal Throne problem. Again, I don't mind BioWare expanding upon the lore, but don't just bring something up in one chapter and never revisit it.

 

My point is that, if they had a plan for stuff after KOTFE? They either threw it into the trash or went after it with a machete after how bad KOTFE turned out. I'm pretty sure that Bioware just wanted this stuff done with, gone, complete so that they could get away from it and do some other stuff.

 

 

That's why the Scions never showed up again, that's why Saresh was so easy to dethrone, that's why the Knights were just force-using obstacles, that's why Satele just shows up on Coruscant in the end, that's why there were no other returning companions, even ones that would've made sense, that's why everything happened so fast: It would've gotten in the way of resolving the issue with the Eternal Throne and the Eternal Fleet.

 

 

This was a major course correction, and probably for the best for the game. I agree, there may have been better ways to handle certain specific aspects, but I'm mostly okay with the end result.

[Suzsi]

I guess it may be different if you are a trooper, but I don't think Aric got one line of dialogue for my Jedi Knight. I don't even remember seeing him other than doing the bonus mission for the Battle of Odessen where he is sniping on a cliff.

 

It seems Theron got a lot of love with this expansion. Perhaps someone else who has also done the Lana romance can comment, but I really feel as though BioWare dropped the ball on that romance. There just weren't a lot of moments that stand out to me.

 

I have an Aric romanced trooper and yeah, theres a couple of small parts but that's it and one of them you have to specifically click on him ( On Iokath ).

 

 

You get to smooch him before leaving to take over the throne. Otherwise he gets pretty much zero. His VA does do other voices throughout KoTET though, just looks like they forgot to give Aric any

 

 

Theron got a lot of romance lines - I have yet to play my BH to see if Torian does. He is around a lot so the possibility is there. Can't speak for Lana, Vette or Koth.

Edited December 1, 2016 by Suzsi

[Aowin]

...

 

We know that the plans definitely were changed. KOTET was going to have a similar format to KOTFE with likely 16 chapters, seven of them being monthly, and class companions returning.

 

Due to the negative criticism of KOTFE, BioWare threw that plan out the window and just decided to try and wrap up the main plot. Charles Boyd addressed this issue specifically in one of the Producer Live Streams. Obviously, resolving the Eternal Throne was important. However, BioWare did it at the expense of everything else.

 

The Scions, Saresh's minor role, Satele and Marr being absent the entire story until showing up randomly at the end, it was clear BioWare did a 180 turn and decided to just end the story as fast as possible. I think BioWare's response with KOTET was a bit too reactionary and ultimately just harmed the integrity of the story.

 

I just have to disagree. This was just sloppy writing and an excuse to get this story arc out of the way. Nine chapters was not enough to conclude this story and having half the time to wrap things up definitely had a huge impact on the quality of the experience for me.

[LyraineAlei]

Yeah, Aric didn't get much at all

Theron got heaps though... Theron was totally adorable with my JK and I wanna play them again.

 

Considering how much Lana was dumped on us in KotFE, I guess Lana was replaced by Theron.

 

To rest of the thread:

 

I haven't played it all through yet, but I can't say I'm very surprised BW scrapped so much to just end the ET story arc, since BW seems to do things in extremes - Extreme OPs, and then extreme nerfs to try and balance like what happened with Slot Machines, for example. Or the Heroics credit reward nerf that axed way down and was out of balance with groupers.

 

Also - very peeved about the lack of Lord Scourge still.

[Kyrrant]

Due to the negative criticism of KOTFE, BioWare threw that plan out the window and just decided to try and wrap up the main plot. Charles Boyd addressed this issue specifically in one of the Producer Live Streams. Obviously, resolving the Eternal Throne was important. However, BioWare did it at the expense of everything else.

 

...

 

I just have to disagree. This was just sloppy writing and an excuse to get this story arc out of the way. Nine chapters was not enough to conclude this story and having half the time to wrap things up definitely had a huge impact on the quality of the experience for me.

 

Entirely fair, dude. I think my stance is less that the story is a good way to end the Zakuul arc (although I think it did an acceptable job at it), and more that, given the desire to quickly wrap it up in about the same amount of time as the initial burst of KOTFE chapters had, this is about as good an expansion as I could reasonably expect.

 

And, again, I don't think it's bad. I love the faster pace and less faffing about with minor things here and there. Chapters 10 - 16 had about as many story beats happen in them as two KOTET chapters. Sure, they weren't reintroducing companions and such, but you could've cut down so, so much of those KOTFE chapters just my minimizing the number of Plot Cul-De-Sacs, and it would've been stronger for it.

 

But yeah. Seems like we both agree on the points, just on how much we enjoy them. Three cheers for variety in tastes!

[Wintermutes]

Yea, it was a little weird having Acina lecture my sorcerer about the Sith code. Like, bish, I'm Darth Nox. I'm keeper of ancient knowledge. I'm literally infused with the ghosts of ancient Sith Lords. I sat on the same Dark Council as you. Don't tell me what the Sith code is.

 

However, I did still enjoy the mission a lot, and I am not finished with all of KOTET, but up through chapter 6 I have enjoyed it immensely.

Edited December 1, 2016 by Wintermutes

[Aowin]

Considering how much Lana was dumped on us in KotFE, I guess Lana was replaced by Theron.

 

To rest of the thread:

 

I haven't played it all through yet, but I can't say I'm very surprised BW scrapped so much to just end the ET story arc, since BW seems to do things in extremes - Extreme OPs, and then extreme nerfs to try and balance like what happened with Slot Machines, for example. Or the Heroics credit reward nerf that axed way down and was out of balance with groupers.

 

Also - very peeved about the lack of Lord Scourge still.

 

That's not to say Lana wasn't feature in the expansion, but there just didn't seem like a lot of relationship building for those who pursued her as a love interest. I understand there are a lot of companions to juggle, but you'd think that Theron and Lana would get the most attention due to being two of the main characters.

 

I definitely see KOTET's creation as BioWare's inability to parse through feedback effectively. They claim many did not like the monthly chapters, specifically class companions returning. I personally did not feel that way. I actually enjoyed monthly chapters and I liked class companions returning. What I did not like is how those companions were woven back into the story and how many of those chapters came across as filler. The system, itself, wasn't the problem. It was the execution. To just throw the baby out with the bath water, figuratively speaking, is not how you cure the downsides of KOTFE.

[Aowin]

Entirely fair, dude. I think my stance is less that the story is a good way to end the Zakuul arc (although I think it did an acceptable job at it), and more that, given the desire to quickly wrap it up in about the same amount of time as the initial burst of KOTFE chapters had, this is about as good an expansion as I could reasonably expect.

 

And, again, I don't think it's bad. I love the faster pace and less faffing about with minor things here and there. Chapters 10 - 16 had about as many story beats happen in them as two KOTET chapters. Sure, they weren't reintroducing companions and such, but you could've cut down so, so much of those KOTFE chapters just my minimizing the number of Plot Cul-De-Sacs, and it would've been stronger for it.

 

But yeah. Seems like we both agree on the points, just on how much we enjoy them. Three cheers for variety in tastes!

 

I suppose that's where our expectations differ. I'm not interested in the story just being decent or serviceable. I have higher standards for BioWare Storytelling as they've proven they can make a compelling narrative for the 13 years I've been playing their games. KOTET was okay from a narrative standpoint, but it lacked the scope and nuance that I generally see from a BioWare product. It really just came across as if BioWare wanted to dig itself out of this hole and just forget about it.

 

KOTFE wasn't perfect and the monthly chapters definitely had pacing issues. That being said, doing half the chapters and not explaining anything really isn't much of an improvement in my eyes. Now we'll have to wait another year for BioWare to explain half of what happened, if they ever bother explaining anything. The direction the story is going now seems to make it rather definitive that we are leaving this story arc for good and not returning.

Edited December 2, 2016 by Aowin

[Aowin]

Yea, it was a little weird having Acina lecture my sorcerer about the Sith code. Like, bish, I'm Darth Nox. I'm keeper of ancient knowledge. I'm literally infused with the ghosts of ancient Sith Lords. I sat on the same Dark Council as you. Don't tell me what the Sith code is.

 

However, I did still enjoy the mission a lot, and I am not finished with all of KOTET, but up through chapter 6 I have enjoyed it immensely.

 

It's entertaining. I don't view KOTET as horrible story-wise. I just see it as being a disappointment considering how much is left unresolved from KOTFE. I also just see a lot of missed opportunities bringing back key characters and having others involved who should have been in the story.

 

What is up with Satele and Marr now? Why weren't Kira and Scourge anywhere to be found? What are the Scions doing? Why wasn't the Sith Empire present for the Battle of Odessen? What happened to the Force in Chapter 12 and why is it irrelevant now? Why was Koth joyriding with the gravestone most of KOTET for no reason? Why did we learn absolutely nothing on Iokath? How was Valkorion destroyed without Darth Dramath's holocron? What was the purpose of the dark sanctuary on the gravestone? The questions go on and on.

[AngFour]

I actually enjoyed monthly chapters and I liked class companions returning. What I did not like is how those companions were woven back into the story and how many of those chapters came across as filler. The system, itself, wasn't the problem. It was the execution. To just throw the baby out with the bath water, figuratively speaking, is not how you cure the downsides of KOTFE.

 

I think that was EVERYONE'S biggest complaint about the KotFE story. But Bioware has SOOPER DOOPER selective hearing and only heard "We don't like our companions coming back... *white noise white noise white noise*...story makes no sense!" And went from there.

[Aowin]

I think that was EVERYONE'S biggest complaint about the KotFE story. But Bioware has SOOPER DOOPER selective hearing and only heard "We don't like our companions coming back... *white noise white noise white noise*...story makes no sense!" And went from there.

 

Yeah. I'm not sure who they were listening to, but less doesn't mean more. KOTFE wasn't perfect, but I enjoyed it overall. I certainly enjoyed its format more than I enjoy KOTET so far. I'm just not impressed if this is the quality storytelling we'll get once a year. I definitely preferred KOTFE's format for storytelling, even if pacing wasn't the best at times.

[cmdrzoom]

As someone who actually romanced Lana on one character (Agent), I'm almost glad (almost, and for the worst reason) that she shows up so little in ET ... because they (IMO) ruined her face with the latest round of model changes, and the less I have to look at her now, the better. (At least I have screenshots of better days, even if they no longer match.)

 

Yes, I'm terribly shallow. But for me and my Agent, this was the second strike, after my inability to see two months into the future forever locked me out of giving Kaliyo what she deserves and I've been wanting to do ever since the former Keeper stuck me with her back in Chapter 1, years and years ago. Third strike? I'm not there... yet.

[AngFour]

... after my inability to see two months into the future forever locked me out of giving Kaliyo what she deserves and I've been wanting to do ever since the former Keeper stuck me with her back in Chapter 1, years and years ago.

 

On the plus side you can replay that chapter and kill Kaliyo then. Yeah, the choice isn't permanent, but you can still do it as many times as you want.

[Aowin]

As someone who actually romanced Lana on one character (Agent), I'm almost glad (almost, and for the worst reason) that she shows up so little in ET ... because they (IMO) ruined her face with the latest round of model changes, and the less I have to look at her now, the better. (At least I have screenshots of better days, even if they no longer match.)

 

Yes, I'm terribly shallow. But for me and my Agent, this was the second strike, after my inability to see two months into the future forever locked me out of giving Kaliyo what she deserves and I've been wanting to do ever since the former Keeper stuck me with her back in Chapter 1, years and years ago. Third strike? I'm not there... yet.

 

Besides more animations in the face, isn't Lana's face the same as it was in KOTFE? Regardless, I'm not crazy in believing Lana's role as a love interest is significantly reduced in KOTET.

 

What exactly does Kaliyo "deserve"? Do you mean you didn't kill her?